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Pete Wass
09-19-2016, 08:44 AM
I purchased a 1* 3 minute reamer from Dave Kiff earlier this year based on a pretty good rumor that it was very close to what Chet Amick used. I finally got to test three barrels I have chambered up using it yesterday, All three of them shot well. The depth of the chamber I chose shows the bullet barely touching the lead. I don't believe Chet jammed his bullets either, based on what I have seen. I also recently viewed a Calfee chamber that looks remarkably like those I just cut. Looks promising to me at this point.

Pete

1holer
09-19-2016, 09:41 AM
Pete,
I have had quite a bit of experience with that reamer. Dean Bircher and I got one from Kiff back right after Chet died. Dean used that reamer on a Brux 4 groove barrel and shot (2) 2500's in ARA in 1 year and also won just about every IR50/50 match he shot. He was #1 in 10.5# and 13.5# that year. I think it was in 2008. He also did my Shilen ratchet with it and it shot great. It was my second year of shooting so my scores were not as impressive as his. There are advantages and disadvantages with it. To much to write about here, so I will tell you about it at the Nationals this week.
Gene Stroyan

Pete Wass
09-20-2016, 05:43 PM
So far, so good. Particularly the Hart barrel. It's a LASER! Even the Green Mountain "Sporter " barrel I made up shot pretty well; no choke and not finished lapped but it shot pretty well.

Pete

GordonE
09-20-2016, 07:58 PM
Good thread Pete Chet had something figured out.
You could be on to something with the 1.3 reamer. Are you shooting any barrels chambered with the 1.3 reamer. At the Nationals?
Thanks
Gordon

Wilbur
09-20-2016, 10:21 PM
I had a similar talk with Tony Boyer and we agreed that there was such a thing as a GOOD reamer. By that I mean two reamers measuring the same (to the extent they can be measured) will produce different results. I suppose I'm trying to say there are magic reamers. :) Believe it or not. I won't argue with anybody that sees it differently. One item, and I suppose it's the only item, that supports this belief is the gunsmith that suddenly becomes extremely popular...and then later becomes just another gunsmith. What causes this?!?! A rhetorical question for sure....

Pete Wass
09-20-2016, 10:40 PM
Good thread Pete Chet had something figured out.
You could be on to something with the 1.3 reamer. Are you shooting any barrels chambered with the 1.3 reamer. At the Nationals?
Thanks
Gordon

I am not real big on the Nationals. I never figured they meant any more than any other match I shot in. There is only one winner, no matter where the match is held or who's shooting in it. I've been to a lot of them all over the country and shot with the best of em. Somebody always wins and the rest either enjoy the trip or are miserable. Me, I learned to enjoy the trip a long time ago.

Now, if this is some sort of calling me out, it ain't gonna work. High School has been over a long time, for me at least. I am not now nor have I ever been a National level shooter. I don't practice , never have, nor do I spend a lot of money on the latest or the bestist. I just am not wired that way. My ego is content to simply be part of the sport. I don't have to be the best at it to enjoy it. What I do like however is trying different things, which I actually do on occasion. I also believe in sharing everything, unlike some others. I always liked the road races where all the cars were prepared by an Org. to be as exact as they could mechanically be and let the drivers show the audience how good they were. Most other sports revolve around folks trying to find some sort of mechanical advantage. Some might consider that not very sportsman-like at all I think. But no, I won't be shooting one of my chambers in the Nationals. So what?

Pete

Pete Wass
09-20-2016, 10:54 PM
I had a similar talk with Tony Boyer and we agreed that there was such a thing as a GOOD reamer. By that I mean two reamers measuring the same (to the extent they can be measured) will produce different results. I suppose I'm trying to say there are magic reamers. :) Believe it or not. I won't argue with anybody that sees it differently. One item, and I suppose it's the only item, that supports this belief is the gunsmith that suddenly becomes extremely popular...and then later becomes just another gunsmith. What causes this?!?! A rhetorical question for sure....

Our sport sometimes seems to suffer from the herd mentality; just a cynic's observation you understand. It's like any other aspect of our sport, what's hot and what's not, eh? It my not be so rhetorical. I think inflated egos may play in sometimes. Did I say I might be cynical?

What I enjoy seeing is when lads build their own winning rifles. There is a lesson there, for sure. I would not agree on Magic Reamers. I think and in fact know, there are magic barrels. How would one know if the reamer was magic or the barrel, in any particular case, even if the same barrel was chambered with both reamers in some sort of succession? Perhaps that barrel wanted the chamber in the particular place it shot best in. Now, let's see, which reamer did we use first? Now different reamer styles, another matter.

Pete

tim
09-20-2016, 11:16 PM
I had a similar talk with Tony Boyer and we agreed that there was such a thing as a GOOD reamer. By that I mean two reamers measuring the same (to the extent they can be measured) will produce different results. I suppose I'm trying to say there are magic reamers. :) Believe it or not. I won't argue with anybody that sees it differently. One item, and I suppose it's the only item, that supports this belief is the gunsmith that suddenly becomes extremely popular...and then later becomes just another gunsmith. What causes this?!?! A rhetorical question for sure....

Nobody bats 1000 at this game Wilbur. At the end of the day the best smith is at the mercy of his componants and try as they might there are variables that usually enter into the equation and they dictate less consistancy than we'd all like to believe.
I know, for instance, a well known shooter that went to a well known gunsmith and supplied a very popular barrel choice.
The problem is, he sent 10 blanks to the guy and at the end, 2 were found suitable. You know many guys willing to undertake that effort for a build?
My #1 gun uses a barrel that, by all measures, would be considered less than mainstream, yet it has performed to a very high standard. That said, I consider myself, damned lucky and unlikely to get another any time in the near future done to that standard.

tim
09-20-2016, 11:26 PM
Our sport sometimes seems to suffer from the herd mentality; just a cynic's observation you understand. It's like any other aspect of our sport, what's hot and what's not, eh? It my not be so rhetorical. I think inflated egos may play in sometimes. Did I say I might be cynical?

What I enjoy seeing is when lads build their own winning rifles. There is a lesson there, for sure. I would not agree on Magic Reamers. I think and in fact know, there are magic barrels. How would one know if the reamer was magic or the barrel, in any particular case, even if the same barrel was chambered with both reamers in some sort of succession? Perhaps that barrel wanted the chamber in the particular place it shot best in. Now, let's see, which reamer did we use first? Now different reamer styles, another matter.

Pete

Well, friend Pete, put this down to stuff you are clueless about.
Since you resurected the past merits of Chester Amick, let me share a factoid with you. All of his highest performing rifles he did with one reamer, a reamer he felt was unexplicably unique and stated to me more than once, he would be at a major loss if it ever chiped or needed freshening cause it was never gonna leave his shop....ever. Granted his accomplishments paled in comparison with your woodsy charm but I thought it was worth a mention. Let us know when you build 5 different rifles that shoot 250 25X's.
Now.....inflated egos? Who knows. Blockheads, however......we've got plenty IMHO.

27-T
09-21-2016, 11:24 AM
Well, friend Pete, put this down to stuff you are clueless about.
Since you resurected the past merits of Chester Amick, let me share a factoid with you. All of his highest performing rifles he did with one reamer, a reamer he felt was unexplicably unique and stated to me more than once, he would be at a major loss if it ever chiped or needed freshening cause it was never gonna leave his shop....ever. Granted his accomplishments paled in comparison with your woodsy charm but I thought it was worth a mention. Let us know when you build 5 different rifles that shoot 250 25X's.
Now.....inflated egos? Who knows. Blockheads, however......we've got plenty IMHO.

Tim - I quote you, "clueless about", "woodsy charm" and "blockheads". This sounds like you belong on another forum. I had the impression that all of us deserve some respect. We can share information in an adult manner, respecting everyone and their opinion. Arrogance never helps anyone, including the arrogant.

27-T

GordonE
09-21-2016, 12:03 PM
Pete
Sorry i questioned you. Good luck with your reamer.
Gordon

tim
09-21-2016, 01:47 PM
Tim - I quote you, "clueless about", "woodsy charm" and "blockheads". This sounds like you belong on another forum. I had the impression that all of us deserve some respect. We can share information in an adult manner, respecting everyone and their opinion. Arrogance never helps anyone, including the arrogant.

27-T

Well you should, perhaps, avail yourself of the search function, there is a rather rich history here of misinformation and unfounded supposition. This particular topic I happen to know a wealth of first hand information about.
That said, a pretty strong sanction from someone with little history that is cloaked behind an unidentifiable screen name. At the end of the day you may wish, if offended, to simply not read the posts.

Wilbur
09-21-2016, 06:09 PM
I'm thinking 27-T is right on this one....

That out of the way, what you're actually saying (me too) is that folks that can simply toss a barrel and get a new one at any time will win more than those that can't. If that's not what you're saying, bottom line, please correct me on this. I'm not likely to change my line of thinking but I don't want to say you and me have the same opinion if it ain't so.

GordonE
09-21-2016, 06:57 PM
Wilbur
.Rimfire and rimfire only. I can take a2deg. chamber and make it 1.3 or something else. With a poured lead lap. With the right compound. Carbon ring may come to play with lapping. You or me or no onel can do this with a patch or a felt pad without changing the chamber in the wrong place.
Gordon

linekin
09-21-2016, 07:22 PM
Pete, glad you've found something you like.
Right or wrong, its what I got in there now & have been quite happy with it.
Have a safe trip Pete.

Keith

tim
09-21-2016, 07:29 PM
I'm thinking 27-T is right on this one....

That out of the way, what you're actually saying (me too) is that folks that can simply toss a barrel and get a new one at any time will win more than those that can't. If that's not what you're saying, bottom line, please correct me on this. I'm not likely to change my line of thinking but I don't want to say you and me have the same opinion if it ain't so.

Well no, in point of fact. Since the comments started in a round about fashion with the inspection of a particular gun made by a particular individual no longer with us.
This lead to lots of assumptions about reamers and chambers, etc., again pretty much unsupported speculation.
Now since there has been lots of prior unsupported speculation and it so happens that I knew, very well, this individual and had literally dozens of conversations about his technical approach to his building and chambering, setting that record straight might be of use.
Now, as always, if you as landlord around here feel it advantageous, delete any and all and I'll still send you the same Xmas present as usuall.;)

mwezell
09-21-2016, 09:12 PM
Would someone tell me what a 1.3 throat is? I know what a 1°-30 is and I know what a 1.5° is..same thing but different way of saying it. But what is a 1.3? TIA--Mike

Pete Wass
09-21-2016, 11:47 PM
in discussing what some legendary lad has done, who is no longer with us. What is known about what he did, factually, has been learned from chamber casts, likely, so there is no great mystery to be held in the shadows. I have looked at one of the chambers he did and shot the rifle it is in. It isn't a 250-25 x rifle nor is it a particularly pretty piece of machine work. Nor are most of the chambers I have seen in Rimfire Rifles. Centerfire reamers make much prettier chambers. Does ugly work? Apparently. Do barrels that should not, by "known Standards" work? Yes, they do and nobody can tell ya why. How many among us can know with any degree of certainty what their reamer actually is ground to be? Does it matter? Mebby, mebby not. Probably barrels are the only thing that matters for sure but, as I said before, perhaps there is a variable of a certain reamer working better in a certain in-perfect barrel that makes the difference. Then, of course, there is the ammo that goes along with all of this, isn't there?

Anyway, another lively discussion.

Pete

Bolero
10-14-2016, 09:59 AM
in discussing what some legendary lad has done, who is no longer with us. What is known about what he did, factually, has been learned from chamber casts, likely, so there is no great mystery to be held in the shadows. I have looked at one of the chambers he did and shot the rifle it is in. It isn't a 250-25 x rifle nor is it a particularly pretty piece of machine work. Nor are most of the chambers I have seen in Rimfire Rifles. Centerfire reamers make much prettier chambers. Does ugly work? Apparently. Do barrels that should not, by "known Standards" work? Yes, they do and nobody can tell ya why. How many among us can know with any degree of certainty what their reamer actually is ground to be? Does it matter? Mebby, mebby not. Probably barrels are the only thing that matters for sure but, as I said before, perhaps there is a variable of a certain reamer working better in a certain in-perfect barrel that makes the difference. Then, of course, there is the ammo that goes along with all of this, isn't there?

Anyway, another lively discussion.

Pete


I disagree with Pete Wass re. Chet Amick and his Rifles...I agree with most of what Tim Simbari has to say and I don't mind his caustic manner on most subjects...

I previously owned 2 Chet Amick 22LR Rifles since 2013, a Suhl 150 Hart Barrel which I sold, It shot consistently in the high 100's C/C, 5 shot groups, 50yds with SK Standard Plus.

The other, that I still own and shoot is a Remington 40X, Walther Barrel, it also shoots consistent 5 shot groups in the 100's with SK Standard Plus at 50yds...

These Amick Rifles were built by Chet Amick and his Protégé Nephew Mark Stottlemyer around 2007, they are not of the Famous Record setting rifles, the Barrels were signed by Chet Amick...

I have extensively researched Chet Amick and discovered that his Legendary shooting abilities were mostly attributed to 3 things...His Special Dave Kiff Reamer, his perfectionist Lapping ability and his very high ability to Read the Wind....

I suspect Tim knows as much as anyone re Chet Amick and tells us maybe 1/2 of what he really knows...

I have another Custom Rem 40X on its way in to me and will be shooting it off against my Amick 40X...

I shoot the ARA 25 Bull target almost exclusively at 50yds, FWIW, for Groups and Bull's...

Bolero

tim
10-14-2016, 02:16 PM
I disagree with Pete Wass re. Chet Amick and his Rifles...I agree with most of what Tim Simbari has to say and I don't mind his caustic manner on most subjects...

I previously owned 2 Chet Amick 22LR Rifles since 2013, a Suhl 150 Hart Barrel which I sold, It shot consistently in the high 100's C/C, 5 shot groups, 50yds with SK Standard Plus.

The other, that I still own and shoot is a Remington 40X, Walther Barrel, it also shoots consistent 5 shot groups in the 100's with SK Standard Plus at 50yds...

These Amick Rifles were built by Chet Amick and his Protégé Nephew Mark Stottlemyer around 2007, they are not of the Famous Record setting rifles, the Barrels were signed by Chet Amick...

I have extensively researched Chet Amick and discovered that his Legendary shooting abilities were mostly attributed to 3 things...His Special Dave Kiff Reamer, his perfectionist Lapping ability and his very high ability to Read the Wind....

I suspect Tim knows as much as anyone re Chet Amick and tells us maybe 1/2 of what he really knows...

I have another Custom Rem 40X on its way in to me and will be shooting it off against my Amick 40X...

I shoot the ARA 25 Bull target almost exclusively at 50yds, FWIW, for Groups and Bull's...

Bolero

What do you mean MOST subjects????
Well truth be told I have many rather pleasant exchanges with lots of folks, it tends to get caustic( my personal failing) when guys ask stuff and then argue about you're answer.
We had quite a few of his rifles up here, several by my dear friend Gary Loughnot AKA lugnuts, who initially introduced me to Chester prior to Gary's suffering a stroak. Me, I had/ have a voracious appetite to learn how these guns work and after gaining his trust that I was'nt particularly after anything, he was willing to share and was a fount of knowledge.
A guy like Pete does'nt have any knowledge about some of the guys at those "club" matches....at that time, the cream of the IR50 crop and every one of them duly respectful of what a self taught mechanic taught himself about 22's.
According to Petey I did'nt really know the man.....largely made things up to somehow impress folks.....go figure. Friend Wass was beating that same horse right after his death.
You can learn anything you need to know with a chamber cast, don't you know?
Probably did'nt learn much about lapping barrels, or the fact that the guy supplied a few to USA olympic shooters, but hey what do I know.
Thanks for the comments, however.

JerrySharrett
10-15-2016, 08:52 PM
Any of you RF guys know the details of the Hart reamer James Messer has? It's supposed to be "magic"..

.

Pete Wass
10-20-2016, 06:35 PM
Pete, glad you've found something you like.
Right or wrong, its what I got in there now & have been quite happy with it.
Have a safe trip Pete.

Keith

You tellin me you got one of them "Woodsy Chambers" ?

Pete

Hippy
10-22-2016, 01:52 PM
I disagree with Pete Wass re. Chet Amick and his Rifles...I agree with most of what Tim Simbari has to say and I don't mind his caustic manner on most subjects...

I previously owned 2 Chet Amick 22LR Rifles since 2013, a Suhl 150 Hart Barrel which I sold, It shot consistently in the high 100's C/C, 5 shot groups, 50yds with SK Standard Plus.

The other, that I still own and shoot is a Remington 40X, Walther Barrel, it also shoots consistent 5 shot groups in the 100's with SK Standard Plus at 50yds...

These Amick Rifles were built by Chet Amick and his Protégé Nephew Mark Stottlemyer around 2007, they are not of the Famous Record setting rifles, the Barrels were signed by Chet Amick...

I have extensively researched Chet Amick and discovered that his Legendary shooting abilities were mostly attributed to 3 things...His Special Dave Kiff Reamer, his perfectionist Lapping ability and his very high ability to Read the Wind....

I suspect Tim knows as much as anyone re Chet Amick and tells us maybe 1/2 of what he really knows...

I have another Custom Rem 40X on its way in to me and will be shooting it off against my Amick 40X...

I shoot the ARA 25 Bull target almost exclusively at 50yds, FWIW, for Groups and Bull's...

Bolero

Talking with Mark when Chet was still with us he stated that PTG had ground at least two other reamers to his specs BUT neither one of those had the "Magic" of his original reamer. And as previously mentioned Chet was a Master at reading conditions and practiced in every possible scenario

Jim

tim
10-22-2016, 02:13 PM
Talking with Mark when Chet was still with us he stated that PTG had ground at least two other reamers to his specs BUT neither one of those had the "Magic" of his original reamer. And as previously mentioned Chet was a Master at reading conditions and practiced in every possible scenario

Jim

That 's why he mentioned more than once his concern if that particular one ever got chipped or needed sharpening, it was never leaving his shop.
After his unexpected passing his wife and daughter spent a long time coming to terms with it. Jean would call me from time to time and after a good year plus, I finally asked about that reamer but never did get any idea what became of it.

Wilbur
10-24-2016, 08:47 AM
Magic reamers do exist...believe it or not...

GordonE
10-24-2016, 06:56 PM
Wilbur
A reamer that has the margin stoned correct. Will cut a magical chamber for rimfire. A rough cutting reamer is junk.jmo

glp
10-25-2016, 07:52 PM
Like Kiff RF reamers?

Pete Wass
10-26-2016, 05:27 PM
Like Kiff RF reamers?

But it's a Woodsy one so who am I to judge. Compared to a friend's 2* I used on a couple of chambers, Mine cuts a nicer looking chamber, to my eye, anyway. Not as many radial chip marks like I've seen in most chambers I've looked at. Mine is a spiral reamer. I think it would cut even smoother if it had more of a twist to it. I only say that based on a lot of taper pin holes I have reamed with spiral reamers. They give a very smooth hole.

Pete