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tonykharper
09-12-2016, 08:37 PM
Does anyone know the course of fire for the Sporter Nationals and the Three Gun Nats? Kind of confusing tthe way it is listed on the schedule.
Who plans to attend?

Jim Jones
09-12-2016, 10:34 PM
Sporter National Yards and 3-gun yards will be shot on Saturday. Sporter Nationals meters and 3-gun meters will be shot on Sunday. Friday will be David Cook Memorial match starting at 12 noon. It will be a double 3-gun soty match. If you plan on shooting the David Cook match please let us know in advance. We are having nice collared shirts with pocket made for the match and we need shirt sizes.

Thanks
Jim

423-306-4319

jimjonessr@aol.com

tonykharper
09-13-2016, 08:07 AM
Sporter National Yards and 3-gun yards will be shot on Saturday. Sporter Nationals meters and 3-gun meters will be shot on Sunday. Friday will be David Cook Memorial match starting at 12 noon. It will be a double 3-gun soty match. If you plan on shooting the David Cook match please let us know in advance. We are having nice collared shirts with pocket made for the match and we need shirt sizes.

Thanks
Jim

423-306-4319

jimjonessr@aol.com

Jim,

Thanks for the response. But just to be clear: Are we going to shoot three Sporter targets (Yards) first for the Sporter Nats. Then shoot the sporter match (yards) then the 10.5lb match (yards), then the 13.5 lb. match (yards) all on Saturday. Then do the same thing for meters on Sunday?

If this is the case, I have more questions. If one only shoots the three gun, what time will that match start on Saturday/Sunday and please don't say after the sporter match. Many of us need a time. No sense driving in the middle of the night to get there if the match doesn't start until, say 1:00 pm.

If we start the three gun in the middle of the day, what effect is that going to have on records of the past? When the match was started earlier in the day?

TKH

MaxxPower
09-13-2016, 02:40 PM
Jim,

Thanks for the response. But just to be clear: Are we going to shoot three Sporter targets (Yards) first for the Sporter Nats. Then shoot the sporter match (yards) then the 10.5lb match (yards), then the 13.5 lb. match (yards) all on Saturday. Then do the same thing for meters on Sunday?

If this is the case, I have more questions. If one only shoots the three gun, what time will that match start on Saturday/Sunday and please don't say after the sporter match. Many of us need a time. No sense driving in the middle of the night to get there if the match doesn't start until, say 1:00 pm.

If we start the three gun in the middle of the day, what effect is that going to have on records of the past? When the match was started earlier in the day?

TKH

Tony:
Perhaps Jim and Wayne will set a "not earlier than" time for the 3 Gun Match but that's up to them. That might pin down your launch time from home if you're just coming for the afternoon 3-Gun Match taking into account registration and set-up time.

As for how records set or not set here will be taken into account I can't see any way to handle it other than taking everything at face value. This isn't a sport that has "wind assisted" records like track and field. Some records have been shot in extremely favorable conditions and others have been shot in tougher ones. They all count the same. What other way is there to do it?

Bruce

MIKECAMERON
09-13-2016, 04:06 PM
What I don't understand is why the change from the past of having the sporter nats on Friday and the 3 gun on sat and sun so the folks who have to drive a long way can be home at a decent time so they can go to work on Monday.It is going to be a really long ride if the nats aren't over until late in the day on sunday.It is understandable to do the yards one day and the meters another in regards to changing backers but it is going to put both final awards ceremonies on sunday as well, if it is like normal waiting on all the protests and what not we will be waiting forever especially with a 7+ hour drive staring at us, if I were retired it would be different I guess.
MC

tonykharper
09-13-2016, 05:17 PM
Tony:
Perhaps Jim and Wayne will set a "not earlier than" time for the 3 Gun Match but that's up to them. That might pin down your launch time from home if you're just coming for the afternoon 3-Gun Match taking into account registration and set-up time.

As for how records set or not set here will be taken into account I can't see any way to handle it other than taking everything at face value. This isn't a sport that has "wind assisted" records like track and field. Some records have been shot in extremely favorable conditions and others have been shot in tougher ones. They all count the same. What other way is there to do it?

Bruce

Bruce,

Thanks for the reply. What I was hoping was we would do the Sporter Nats. all on Saturday, and the Three Gun all on Sunday. I understand that means moving the backers, but for a National Match, held once a year, surely that isn't too much trouble. We have been do it for years. That will allow travelers that want to shoot only one of the matches to have one over night vs forcing everyone to have two.

I have seen all kinds of conditions that mother nature has thrown at us over the years, but changing the start times is a self imposed action that may be a limitation. When I say "self imposed" I mean imposed by "management" rather than mother nature.

Whatever is decided, is decided, but we all should know in advance what the plan is. The way the schedule reads now does not tell anyone what we are doing.

Thanks again for your response. TKH

William Smith
09-13-2016, 06:11 PM
Delete

MaxxPower
09-13-2016, 08:03 PM
Bruce,

Thanks for the reply. What I was hoping was we would do the Sporter Nats. all on Saturday, and the Three Gun all on Sunday. I understand that means moving the backers, but for a National Match, held once a year, surely that isn't too much trouble. We have been do it for years. That will allow travelers that want to shoot only one of the matches to have one over night vs forcing everyone to have two.



Tony, I can't recall it ever being done that way in the 5 years I've been doing this. Since having the Sporter Nationals go to a 6 target Yards/Meters match just started last year it's safe to say that it was never done that way.

But, to put in perspective what I assume Wayne is responding to there was a lot of complaining about having 6 Sporter targets (including 3 Meters Sporter targets) all on one day at the Sporter Nationals on Friday. Then there was complaining that there was too much wasted time spreading out the 3-Gun Nationals over two days (Saturday and Sunday). Also, if you aren't retired or can't take a Friday off work then you can't shoot the Sporter Nationals.

So, taking in to account all of these factors is there a betters scenario than this one? I can't see one.

We have scheduled the Sporter and 3-Gun Nationals the same way at Piney Hill next year in March so I'll be looking with interest at how this goes.

I'm personally pretty excited about the format. 4 Sporter targets each day (not too much) and two Nationals competed over two days. One less motel room than last year. Less down time.

We'll see.

Bruce

tonykharper
09-13-2016, 09:13 PM
Tony, I can't recall it ever being done that way in the 5 years I've been doing this. Since having the Sporter Nationals go to a 6 target Yards/Meters match just started last year it's safe to say that it was never done that way.

But, to put in perspective what I assume Wayne is responding to there was a lot of complaining about having 6 Sporter targets (including 3 Meters Sporter targets) all on one day at the Sporter Nationals on Friday. Then there was complaining that there was too much wasted time spreading out the 3-Gun Nationals over two days (Saturday and Sunday). Also, if you aren't retired or can't take a Friday off work then you can't shoot the Sporter Nationals.

So, taking in to account all of these factors is there a betters scenario than this one? I can't see one.

We have scheduled the Sporter and 3-Gun Nationals the same way at Piney Hill next year in March so I'll be looking with interest at how this goes.

I'm personally pretty excited about the format. 4 Sporter targets each day (not too much) and two Nationals competed over two days. One less motel room than last year. Less down time.

We'll see.

Bruce

My statement of "We have been do it for years" was about shooting one match and completing it before starting another match. That is how it has always been done, including the ones you ran.

Be that as it may, you make good points. Shooting 6 sporter targets in one day. That was tough, shooting four both days may be better.

The other point you made about reducing down time is also good. It never made sense to shoot three targets and be done before noon, then hanging around the rest of the day and night for the last three targets.

So to get in the Sporter Nats, and the three gun Nats in two day is an improvement.

Attendance will tell us if this is the right direction.

I really do think the exiting records will stand for a very long time if we keep this format, but in the long run it is better to get more shooters to the matches, especially the Nationals.

I do have one more question. Will we have two relays even if we have enough benches to shoot everyone in one? It is always done that way, but it never made sense to me. I would rather line up shoulder to shoulder, and shoot it out, rather than worrying about who got on the first relay, and who didn't. If we fill up all the benches then there is no choice, but that normally isn't the case.

Thanks for the answers Bruce, I'm sure I'm not the only person that needed to hear the plan.
TKH

Jim Jones
09-13-2016, 09:35 PM
My whole reason for this format is that we had several people request to get the Nationals done in two days to help reduce cost. That being said as stated previously we also had complaints about shooting 6 sporter targets in a row. I tried to set it up so we could shoot the yards section reset backers to meters and allow practice time for meters on Saturday evening for those who wish to practice meters. I want to accommodate the shooters as best as possible and that is the whole reason behind the changes. I have spoke with Wayne and this will be brought up in the meeting at the Nationals so we can better please the shooters. We encourage every ones input as we go forward to better our matches.

Thanks
Jim

423-306-4319
jimjonessr@aol.com

MaxxPower
09-13-2016, 09:40 PM
Will we have two relays even if we have enough benches to shoot everyone in one? It is always done that way, but it never made sense to me. I would rather line up shoulder to shoulder, and shoot it out, rather than worrying about who got on the first relay, and who didn't. If we fill up all the benches then there is no choice, but that normally isn't the case.
TKH

Tony:

The current rules require an accommodation for shooters that need to share equipment by running two relays. It also requires those shooters to notify the Rangemaster 24 hours in advance.

My hope, like yours, is that we can shoot it all in one relay.

tonykharper
09-14-2016, 04:19 PM
Now we know how we are going to shoot this yearís Sporter, and Three gun Nationals, letís look at what is at stake in these two tournaments.

Big national tournaments are about bragging rights. It is a big deal to be able to say you are the 2016 IR 50/50 Three Gun, or Sporter Nationals Champion. There will only be one each!

There is also other titles to be won. You could win the Three Gun Sporter Champion title, the Three Gun 10.5 lb. Champion title, the Three Gun 13.5 lb. Champion title, ect. ect. Each of these titles come with Hall of Fame points. To win these titles all you have to do is out shoot the field on one target.

Sporter Nationals Hall of Fame points up for grabs:

Sporter 1 = 1 point
Sporter 2 = 1 point
Sporter 3 =1 point
3-Gun Agg Yards = 3 points
3-Gun Agg Meters = 3 points

6-Target Agg Ė 1st Place = 5 points
2nd Place = 4 points
3rd Place = 3 points
4th Place = 2 points
5th Place = 1 point

Three Gun Nationals Hall of Fame points up for grabs:

Sporter Class = 1 point
10.5 # Class = 1 point
13.5 # Class = 1 point
2-Gun Agg Yards = 2 points
2-Gun Agg Meters = 2 points
3-Target Agg Yards = 3 points
3-Target Agg Meters = 3 points
4-Gun Agg = 4 points

6-Target Agg
1st Place = 6 points
2nd Place = 5 points
3rd Place = 4 points
4th Place = 3 points
5th Place = 2 points

That is a total of 61 Hall of Fame points up for grabs in one weekend. Come get you sum.

This link will take you to the Hall of Fame Page on the IR 50/50 website. http://www.ir5050.com/hall-of-fame/

This link will take you to the Tournament winners page on the IR 50/50 website. http://www.ir5050.com/archive/

Take a minute and look at these links. It will give you an idea of how others have done.

There are other prizes that come with the titles, and the Hall of Fame points. First off, if you win the overall Sporter Nationals, or the Three Gun Nationals you will receive a very nice Golden Eagle trophy.

There will be other prizes as well.

The titles, trophies, and Hall of Fame points are for the lucky winners, but everyone that attends will be a winner.

The opportunity to converse with other shooters that share your shooting interest is priceless. Some of the best shooters in the country will be at the Nationals and all of them are more than willing to share information with fellow shooters.

You will learn more at the Nationals than you will learn shooting local matches all year. Make plans to attend. This is the biggest IR 50/50 shooting weekend of the year.

TKH

ewwills
09-14-2016, 06:06 PM
There will also be a SPECIAL TROPHY this year for the Champion of Champions. This will be the shooter who has the highest combined Sporter and 3-Gun aggs. In theory we could have three different shooters win the Sporter, 3-Gun and Champion of Champion. The Sporter and 3-Gun winner will get 250.00 each from IR50/50.
We have the Nationals hats, Trophies and David Cook Shirts ready to give out. We have been doing a lot of prep work at the range and it is looking good. We will have most of the Triple Crown Scoring team on hand to score, so scoring should go really smooth.
Looking forward to seeing everyone,
Wayne

tonykharper
09-15-2016, 05:47 PM
Who are the contenders at the Sporter, and Three Gun Nationals?

Kinda hard to tell since we donít know who plans to attend.
If you are not in the witness protection program, please respond to this thread and let us know if you plan to be there.

Sporter Nationals:

To speculate, we could look at last yearís winner. Mike Cameron. He won the Sporter Nationals last year going away.

He looks to be a good pick to repeat. But then again, we have Dennis Drake. Dennis won the indoor Sporter Nationals earlier this year, he always shoots the sporter well. He could be the man.

Then we have this yearís Sporter scoreline leader, Ed Hosier. Ed has shot his sporter like no other this year.

He could run away with this thing, if he continues to shoot the way he has been this year.

Looking right under him on the Sporter scoreline, who do we find? Mike Cameron.

All said and done, my pick is Mike Cameron as the man to beat in this yearís Sporter Nationals.

Three Gun Nationals:

Last yearís winner was Bruce Hornstein. He has been shooting well all year. He could repeat.

Then we have our current Three Gun scoreline leader, Gene Stroyan. He is the current leader for a reason.

He has been just killing it this year. He could take this thing home. Right under him in the second place position is, guess who, Mike Cameron.

Out of the three, my pick is again Mike Cameron.

Mike could very well win both of these tournaments.

Then we have a list of dark horses that can step up and win these matches.

Fred Sears. Fred has more Hall of Fame points than any other active shooter. He could win both of these tournaments if he shows up.

Ken Camper could do the same, and you can pretty much bet he will be there.

Mac See has been shooting well this year. He could step up and take it home.

The guys from New York could show up and win. They have done it before.

When it comes down to it, anyone could win this thing.

But you canít win it, if you ainít in it. Make your plans to be there.
TKH

tonykharper
09-15-2016, 08:18 PM
Who are the contenders at the Sporter, and Three Gun Nationals?

Kinda hard to tell since we donít know who plans to attend.
If you are not in the witness protection program, please respond to this thread and let us know if you plan to be there.

Sporter Nationals:

To speculate, we could look at last yearís winner. Mike Cameron. He won the Sporter Nationals last year going away.

He looks to be a good pick to repeat. But then again, we have Dennis Drake. Dennis won the indoor Sporter Nationals earlier this year, he always shoots the sporter well. He could be the man.

Then we have this yearís Sporter scoreline leader, Ed Hosier. Ed has shot his sporter like no other this year.

He could run away with this thing, if he continues to shoot the way he has been this year.

Looking right under him on the Sporter scoreline, who do we find? Mike Cameron.

All said and done, my pick is Mike Cameron as the man to beat in this yearís Sporter Nationals.

Three Gun Nationals:

Last yearís winner was Bruce Hornstein. He has been shooting well all year. He could repeat.

Then we have our current Three Gun scoreline leader, Gene Stroyan. He is the current leader for a reason.

He has been just killing it this year. He could take this thing home. Right under him in the second place position is, guess who, Mike Cameron.

Out of the three, my pick is again Mike Cameron.

Mike could very well win both of these tournaments.

Then we have a list of dark horses that can step up and win these matches.

Fred Sears. Fred has more Hall of Fame points than any other active shooter. He could win both of these tournaments if he shows up.

Ken Camper could do the same, and you can pretty much bet he will be there.

Mac See has been shooting well this year. He could step up and take it home.

The guys from New York could show up and win. They have done it before.

When it comes down to it, anyone could win this thing.

But you canít win it, if you ainít in it. Make your plans to be there.
TKH

Btt

linekin
09-16-2016, 04:19 AM
Thanks to the powers that be for trying to condense the show for us shooters. Although a double match on Sunday isn't ideal for me, attendance is more important. Cudos! Hope it works!
Tony, thanks for creating a little buzz about the Nationals. Also, I'd like to add another name to the list of potential winners. Yours!
Unless a hurricane comes up the coast, I'll be down.
Safe travels everyone,
Keith

tonykharper
09-18-2016, 09:19 AM
UP FOR GRABS, Records, Records, Records, at the Sporter, and Three Gun IR 50/50 Nationals

Yards Records

Sporter: David Cook, 9/27/13, 250-22

Sporter 6 gun: Mike Cameron, 9/25/15, 1493 85

10.5 lb.: David Cook, 7/7/12, 250-24

13.5 lb.: Doug Bell, 5/16/15, 250-24

2 Gun: Harry Deneen, 8/5/00, 500-44

3 Gun: Harry Deneen, 8/5/00, 750-59

4 Gun: Bruce Hornstein, 9/27/15, 999-60

6 Gun: Bruce Hornstein, 9/27/15, 1498 - 84

Meters Records

Sporter: William Colbert, 7/26/15, 250-22

Sporter 6 Gun: Mike Cameron, 9/25/15, 1493-85

10.5 lb.: Ken Pointer, 9/24/00, 250-21

13.5 lb.: Fred Sears, 6/30/02, 250-21

2 Gun: Dennis Drake, 9/15/13, 500-36

3 Gun: Mike Cameron, 8/23/15, 750-42

4 Gun: Bruce Hornstein, 9/27/15, 999-60

6 Gun: Bruce Hornstein, 9/27/15, 1498-84

Come get you sum!
TKH

1holer
09-18-2016, 10:24 AM
Thanks to the powers that be for trying to condense the show for us shooters. Although a double match on Sunday isn't ideal for me, attendance is more important. Cudos! Hope it works!
Tony, thanks for creating a little buzz about the Nationals. Also, I'd like to add another name to the list of potential winners. Yours!
Unless a hurricane comes up the coast, I'll be down.
Safe travels everyone,
Keith

Tony....I agree with linekin. There isn't anyone on the range that is more consistent with great shooting than you! I'm looking forward to seeing you at Kettlefoot.
Gene Stroyan

Dave Shattuck
09-18-2016, 11:20 AM
Don't ya just love how both the 2-Gun and 3-Gun Standing Records were both shot over 16 years ago by Harry?

Now, there was one heck of a nice guy, and always shot lights-out. Just look at the H of F points list and how big his lead still is over #2. Too bad you newer shooters never got to meet or shoot with (against) him. Has anyone heard how he's doing?

Dave Shattuck

Pete Wass
09-18-2016, 12:33 PM
Was a nice guy to deal with.

Pete

Dave Shattuck
09-18-2016, 06:24 PM
Pete,

Me too.

I also bought one of his Suhl, which turned out to be the best gun I've ever owned, and still can't figure out what I was thinking when I sold it? That gun always kept me right near the top if I used the right ammo. Never found anything after that that could keep up. Oh well, a mistake I will always question. I know I've questioned making it multiple times since.

Dave

linekin
09-20-2016, 05:57 AM
Also happening at the Nationals is the Annual meeting which includes the following agenda.
AGENDA IR50/50
2016 Meeting
1. Protest Fees and Rules
Not sure what this is all about. Don't see the need to change anything here myself.
2. Rule Change requiring protests to be scored in the same manner as original
scoring
Scoring should be consistently done throughout the match IMO. Thought it was a rule but isn't.
3. Sanctioning of the IR50/50 portion of the Triple Crown
Why not? There's a bunch of shooters there & should benefit from having shot the match. Its the largest match IR50 has all year!
4. Adding months to the List Season
Don't really see a need for this. April-thru Oct is enough for me. Not that I won't shoot anywhere, anytime.
5. Removal of restrictions on 3-Gun Matches
I'm guessing this means the # of matches a club can hold?? I'm undecided & have opinions that go either way.

So that's going on this weekend too. For those of you that may not be able to make it, it would be nice to at least hear your thoughts on the agenda.

Keith

tonykharper
09-20-2016, 09:45 AM
Also happening at the Nationals is the Annual meeting which includes the following agenda.
AGENDA IR50/50
2016 Meeting
1. Protest Fees and Rules
Not sure what this is all about. Don't see the need to change anything here myself.
2. Rule Change requiring protests to be scored in the same manner as original
scoring
Scoring should be consistently done throughout the match IMO. Thought it was a rule but isn't.
3. Sanctioning of the IR50/50 portion of the Triple Crown
Why not? There's a bunch of shooters there & should benefit from having shot the match. Its the largest match IR50 has all year!
4. Adding months to the List Season
Don't really see a need for this. April-thru Oct is enough for me. Not that I won't shoot anywhere, anytime.
5. Removal of restrictions on 3-Gun Matches
I'm guessing this means the # of matches a club can hold?? I'm undecided & have opinions that go either way.

So that's going on this weekend too. For those of you that may not be able to make it, it would be nice to at least hear your thoughts on the agenda.

Keith

Keith,

Thanks for posting the meeting agenda. Hope Wayne adds some detail because I don't understand all the items of discussion.

One thing I do understand is item 3. The IR 50/50 portion of the Triple Crown should be sanctioned. There were more than three times the number of shooters at the IR 50/50 portion of the Triple Crown than were at the IR 50/50 Unlimited Nationals. While the Triple Crown only shoots yards, that does not diminish the fact that you are shooting against three, or more times the number of shooters.

Sanctioning would enhances the Triple Crown, while recognizing IR 50/50 shooting achievement. Records should be kept, and Hall of Fame points awarded.
TKH

tim
09-20-2016, 01:46 PM
Keith, or anybody for that matter, exactly what does #2 mean?

linekin
09-20-2016, 04:10 PM
Keith, or anybody for that matter, exactly what does #2 mean?

2. Rule Change requiring protests to be scored in the same manner as original
scoring

Tim, this is how I understand it. Might be a little off but don't think so.
A scorer chooses how the read each bull in the box. Either with a light on, or with it off. Doesn't matter. The referees will then do it the same exact way.
I think that also the whole target is scored with the light on or off. Scorers choice. Not just the bull that need to be plugged. The whole target looked at in the same manner.
I think Consistency is all that's being asked for.

Keith

MIKECAMERON
09-20-2016, 04:38 PM
2. Rule Change requiring protests to be scored in the same manner as original
scoring

Tim, this is how I understand it. Might be a little off but don't think so.
A scorer chooses how the read each bull in the box. Either with a light on, or with it off. Doesn't matter. The referees will then do it the same exact way.
I think that also the whole target is scored with the light on or off. Scorers choice. Not just the bull that need to be plugged. The whole target looked at in the same manner.
I think Consistency is all that's being asked for.

Keith

I think you have it exactly Kieth. If they score it out in the sunlight with plug and magnifier the protest needs to be looked at in the same fashion.If they use a light box with the light off then the protest needs to be done that way, if the light is on then the protest should match, I do believe that is what whoever has proposed this is after.
MC

tonykharper
09-20-2016, 07:14 PM
2. Rule Change requiring protests to be scored in the same manner as original
scoring

Tim, this is how I understand it. Might be a little off but don't think so.
A scorer chooses how the read each bull in the box. Either with a light on, or with it off. Doesn't matter. The referees will then do it the same exact way.
I think that also the whole target is scored with the light on or off. Scorers choice. Not just the bull that need to be plugged. The whole target looked at in the same manner.
I think Consistency is all that's being asked for.

Keith

Keith are you saying if one ask for one bull to be re scored the entire target would be re scored? If so one could end up with a lower score than before the protest! That may reduce the number of protest! Not a bad idea!

tim
09-20-2016, 07:26 PM
I think you have it exactly Kieth. If they score it out in the sunlight with plug and magnifier the protest needs to be looked at in the same fashion.If they use a light box with the light off then the protest needs to be done that way, if the light is on then the protest should match, I do believe that is what whoever has proposed this is after.
MC

Think about that for a moment. Two wrongs make a bigger wrong for crying out loud.
Probably the best available methodology at hand resolves any issues but I cannot imagine any circumstance where protests, or scoring for that matter, should'nt use the best resorces available. If some nitwit forgets to turn on the lightbox why make it harder on refs. You're reviewing the target not the scorer( hopefuly).

I recall now the probable instance that generated this. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was a match where a lightbox was forgotten and then it showed up.

linekin
09-20-2016, 07:42 PM
Keith are you saying if one ask for one bull to be re scored the entire target would be re scored? If so one could end up with a lower score than before the protest! That may reduce the number of protest! Not a bad idea!

Tony, I don't think that is its intent. I believe that it involves using the same method throughout the scoring process. From the scorer, then to the referees. Same system.
To score a card without the light & come to a "plugger" & turn the light on to score it, then off again (I think) is in question. The targets should be scored, or protests reviewed, in the same manner is the question.
I see Tim's point as to let the refs use the best means available though. In the end, they make the decisions at the match. Not the MD, scorer, or statistician, correct?

Keith

tonykharper
09-20-2016, 08:25 PM
Tony, I don't think that is its intent. I believe that it involves using the same method throughout the scoring process. From the scorer, then to the referees. Same system.
To score a card without the light & come to a "plugger" & turn the light on to score it, then off again (I think) is in question. The targets should be scored, or protests reviewed, in the same manner is the question.
I see Tim's point as to let the refs use the best means available though. In the end, they make the decisions at the match. Not the MD, scorer, or statistician, correct?

Keith
Thanks for the info. I think everyone knows I'm not a fan of plugs. But I will not
Go into that now!
TKH

tim
09-20-2016, 08:30 PM
Tony, I don't think that is its intent. I believe that it involves using the same method throughout the scoring process. From the scorer, then to the referees. Same system.
To score a card without the light & come to a "plugger" & turn the light on to score it, then off again (I think) is in question. The targets should be scored, or protests reviewed, in the same manner is the question.
I see Tim's point as to let the refs use the best means available though. In the end, they make the decisions at the match. Not the MD, scorer, or statistician, correct?

Keith

I should probably say that, without question, making sure the scorer uses the best system available and throughout avoids all issues for everybody.

MIKECAMERON
09-20-2016, 09:20 PM
Think about that for a moment. Two wrongs make a bigger wrong for crying out loud.
Probably the best available methodology at hand resolves any issues but I cannot imagine any circumstance where protests, or scoring for that matter, should'nt use the best resorces available. If some nitwit forgets to turn on the lightbox why make it harder on refs. You're reviewing the target not the scorer( hopefuly).

I recall now the probable instance that generated this. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was a match where a lightbox was forgotten and then it showed up.

I don't know what has brought this question up. My idea would be to make sure the target is CORRECTLY SCORED, no matter what system you have to use. If it were left up to me there would be computer scoring across the board. I agree with Tony about plugs and would be perfectly fine with whatever the target shows as the score, if the hole doesn't touch the line then it is out, if it doesn't touch the dot it isn't an x, that would be fine to me and would do away with a good many protests.
MC

MIKECAMERON
09-20-2016, 09:21 PM
I will say this In my opinion I think the new plug and magnifier has really helped and has been a very good thing for scoring.
MC

tonykharper
09-20-2016, 09:23 PM
I don't know what has brought this question up. My idea would be to make sure the target is CORRECTLY SCORED, no matter what system you have to use. If it were left up to me there would be computer scoring across the board. I agree with Tony about plugs and would be perfectly fine with whatever the target shows as the score, if the hole doesn't touch the line then it is out, if it doesn't touch the dot it isn't an x, that would be fine to me and would do away with a good many protests.
MC

Amen!!!

tonykharper
09-21-2016, 09:16 AM
Weather for the Sporter, and Three Gun IR 50/50 Nationals
Kettlefoot, Bristol, Va.

The weather in Bristol looks good for this weekend. Low 60ís to high 80s, both days.

Only a 10% chance of rain, and winds 5 mph. Saturday, and 4 mph. Sunday. Not bad for a Nationals weekend.

The range at Kettlefoot has been improved in recent years. If you attended the Triple Crown this year you saw many of the improvements. Indoor toilets, more overhang to improve the cleaning areas behind the benches. The parking areas have also been improved.

The one improvement that was most appreciated at the Triple Crown were the monitors installed outside, behind the benches. These monitors are trained on the computer screen in the scoring room. You can see your scores as soon as they are entered into the computer. There is nothing like instant conformation. Of course, if you donít get the score you thought you shot, you still have the protest period.
Shooters were gathered around those monitors throughout the entire match keeping up to date on how the match was progressing, making it easy to know the scores you would need to keep up with the leaders.

I was told Bill Pippin was responsible for having the monitors installed. This is the same Bill Pippin of RFBR stock designing/building fame. The Pippin stock is the most popular, and most copied Bench rest Stock used in RFBR.

My last post on this yearís Sporter, and Three gun Nationals will be ď TipsĒ on how to shoot at the Kettlefoot range. It will be posted later.
TKH

HuskerP7M8
09-21-2016, 01:54 PM
Good luck to everyone and I hope you have a large crowd of shooters.

Landy

tonykharper
09-28-2016, 09:51 AM
Congratulation to Mike Cameron on winning the IR 50/50 Three Gun Nationals Championship. Great shooting Mike. I know you think I put pressure on you by picking you as the winner before the match but that only proves the champion you are. You shot great, with all guns, and in all conditions. Shooting against champions like you is what makes this game fun for all.

The match was one of the best Iíve attended in a long time. First, the range was in great condition. Everything we needed was provided. The match was ran extremely well. Jim Jones and his crew had everything working like clockwork. The scoring was great. Wayne and his scoring crew were fast and efficient. Even the weather was good. Shooting conditions were good in the mornings, and got more difficult later in the day, but that is exactly what one would expect this time of the year.

The format for the match was changed this year. I believe it was a real improvement. We shot our three sporter (yards) targets from the same bench. Then took a lunch break and shot our sporter, 10.5lb. and 13.5 lb. targets from another bench. We drew both benches before the match started. With this format we only had to move flags, and benches, one time during the day. We did exactly the same for meters on Sunday. What may have been best of all was we all shot on the same relay. We lined up shoulder to shoulder and shot it out. Just the way it is supposed to be.

Numbers of shooters were down this year, and we would have liked to have had a better turn out. Be that as it may, we did have all the right shooters. We had all the scoreline leaders, and those that that had a good chance of winning a National Title. This eliminated a lot of the hussel bussel you have at the big matches. This gave everyone a chance to talk, and get to know one another better.

The annual meeting was held and some of the issues got worked out. Wayne will be putting it all together in the next few weeks. Keep an eye out for the changes. I think you will like some of them. One that is especially important for our game is sanctioning the IR 50/50 portion of the Triple Crown. Not only was it discussed that points be awarded for the match, but Hall of Fame points as well.

Perhaps if some of these ARA and PSL shooters wins some points, it will encourage them to participate in more IR 50/50 matches. These shooters can use their current equipment in IR 50/50 unlimited matches. If they join IR 50/50 at this level, perhaps some will go on to the more difficult three gun competitions. There are many great ARA and PSL shooters, and they would be most welcome.
TKH

MIKECAMERON
09-28-2016, 06:49 PM
And congratulations to you in your Sporter National Championship.I was kidding you about the pressure from the post here but shooting against you is always plenty of pressure, mainly I didn't want to fall on my face after you picked me, I think we all knew you would be at the top and you were.It was a very well run match and because of the limited moving it was very enjoyable.I hope with the changes coming, which I think are going to be good for the sport , it is going to grow as the years go by, all we need to do now is get our ammo situation under control.:cool:
Good shooting Tony, Ill C ya on the range,
MC