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Jeff56
06-03-2016, 12:17 AM
I just dropped by because I came across a PM sent to me by MKnarr back in 2009. I was told how no one would believe my groups and that they weren't possible blah blah blah and all because I said I shot a .122" group with my Savage MkII. I just wanted to post an image here for MKnarr if he's still around. This comment of his stuck in my craw back then and pretty much spoiled me on shooting forums. It's been a while and I don't see him posting recently so I'll include what he said to me which I don't usually do since it was a PM. But I wanted him to know this. He said this to me:

"No one doubts that you can shoot a group as small as .122 but when we find out that it was probably on a shoot and see and you made it sound like an every day occurrence, the benchrest shooters on RFC, some of which are also on BRC, know better."

Oh really. Then explain this target. I have a LOT more like this one if you want to see them. I just want to do this to keep people from discouraging shooters which is exactly what MKnarr tried to do. Here's my best target. Notice I said best. And it's only 4 shots at 50 yards because I ran out of ammo. I'll include the measured size as determined by OnTarget as well. You just never know who you might run in to on a board like this guys. Keep that in mind.

17888

17889

Just for the record this is far from my only really good group. Mr. MKnarr told me I couldn't do what I was doing and not only was I doing it but I got better at it. This comment had a lot to do with why I left this board. I don't like being called a liar. Here's one more for good measure. Keep this in mind before you tell someone you know they're lying just because you can't do it.

17890

I can post a lot of these. I can shoot a freaking rifle. I can shoot one better than most people but I'm not the best. I was friends with the best though and he taught me a lot. And yes I mean I was good friends with "the best". Still am actually. For the record I never said I could do it "every day". But I can do it often. But if it makes you feel better go ahead and believe I'm lying. I know I'm not. I have witnesses. Lots of them. I put on exhibitions of shooting in fact. Lots of them.

Wilbur
06-03-2016, 01:35 AM
You been stewing on this since 2009?

Jeff56
06-03-2016, 02:13 AM
Nope. Came across it looking for something else and I got to thinking about what I've done since then. The guy told me about all the records he held and all the competitions he won and insinuated I couldn't possibly shoot as well as him. Well I do. I won 13 of the last 15 contests I was in then quit competing because of health issues. But my health is back and so is my eye. I just got really ticked when I saw what that guy said. I had not seen that post in years but I remember what it felt like to be called a liar for saying what I did. I have people standing around watching me shoot these days. I have people call me to come and impress their friends. I can shoot. I shoot better than the guy who told me I couldn't shoot (he gave me his best groups - I dare him to say he has one better than the one I posted. It can't be done). I can't do that all the time by any means but I've shot lots of .12" targets which he said was just luck on my part and likely not even real because I shot it on a Shoot N See target. Well he was wrong and it's wrong for someone to sit back and call someone a liar based on what YOU can do. I know I'm not the best but that guy apparently didn't know he wasn't the best.

I left this board for years over that PMt. That's what happens when you start saying crap like he said. I found a friend that did believe in me and he helped me out in a huge way. I got better than I was. I also worked on that rifle and got it more consistent with a different stock and pillar bedding. It just irked me when I read that old message and I thought about where I went from there. I got the feeling the guy just didn't want anyone else around that might compete with him. That's pretty sad.

I will be leaving this board again soon unless someone convinces me there's more to the place than arrogant shooters sending PM's to people calling them liars. That really stunk. And I know other people who got the same treatment here and they were the best in the world at the time. That's the guy who helped me. I won't reveal his name but I will say that my arrogant PM friend hit on exactly what that guy can do that pretty much no one else can do. If I say what you'll instantly know who it is. So I won't because he asked me not to reveal what he did for me.

Jeff56
06-03-2016, 09:21 AM
Just in case you thought I was exaggerating:

17891

17893

17894

17895

17896

There are more of these but this should make my point that my .12" target was not a fluke and not a figment of my imagination.

MaxxPower
06-03-2016, 09:34 AM
So, what exactly are you looking for here?

It's going to irk you all over again after all this time but for almost everyone in this forum your groups are meaningless.

Rimfire benchrest is predominantly a game defined by shooting targets for score... in a match.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're looking for and you're probably not going to get it here.

drknite
06-03-2016, 09:58 AM
Those are some very good groups. I kind of understand your frustration. As a beginner a couple of years ago I asked a very good shooter for some advice. Never heard a thing. It was a little discouraging. You know what you can do. That's all that really matters.

HuskerP7M8
06-03-2016, 10:09 AM
Jeff56,

They say a picture is worth a thousand words and it's pretty obvious no one has explained to you how to measure groups. I'd say there is a small discrepancy in how you measured your 0.067" group vs the correct 0.267" measurement I've made below.

Oh, BTW, none of the other pics you posted can even be measured. It's impossible to measure small groups on Shoot-N-See targets and the rest have either ill defined holes or you make the same mistakes as in this example.

I would have sent a PM, but you've made it obvious that would be a mistake.
If you'd have went about this a little differently, you might have got the help you needed and realized this whole controversy is most likely the result of measurement errors and not a question of rude or wrong comments made by members of this forum. Just saying......

Landy


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff145/HuskerP7M8/BS%202e_zpssnamw9rp.jpg

Jeff56
06-03-2016, 11:40 AM
Jeff56,

They say a picture is worth a thousand words and it's pretty obvious no one has explained to you how to measure groups. I'd say there is a small discrepancy in how you measured your 0.067" group vs the correct 0.267" measurement I've made below.

Oh, BTW, none of the other pics you posted can even be measured. It's impossible to measure small groups on Shoot-N-See targets and the rest have either ill defined holes or you make the same mistakes as in this example.

I would have sent a PM, but you've made it obvious that would be a mistake.
If you'd have went about this a little differently, you might have got the help you needed and realized this whole controversy is most likely the result of measurement errors and not a question of rude or wrong comments made by members of this forum. Just saying......

Landy


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff145/HuskerP7M8/BS%202e_zpssnamw9rp.jpg

This is exactly the kind of garbage that ruins this board. I KNOW what size that group is. It's barely bigger than a bullet. Your measurement is absurd.

I came here to prove my point and I knew someone like you would help me. Arrogance is an ugly thing. And it's rampant here. Thanks for making my point for me. Your ridiculous claim about my measurements is just icing on the cake.

Why do you people post here? I know for a fact that you chased off one of the best shooters on earth with exactly this kind of garbage. But unlike me you have to live with yourself. I wouldn't want that. Goodbye and thanks again for proving my point.


You know what you can do. That's all that really matters.

That's the bottom line but I'm not one to like to see arrogant people burn down someone else because they are jealous and that's exactly what happens here. It is obvious in the supposed measurement of my group posted by someone else. I came here to try to get people to lay off others and actually try to help them but as you see there are those that let jealousy get in their way. It's not just here either. The club where I got started shooting competitions had a range master like that. He started showing me something then he noticed how well I was shooting. He just stopped talking to me because he knew I would be better than him. He never talked to me the entire time I was at that club after that. How pathetic that humans can be so petty. I gladly help people all the time. I have taught a lot of people to shoot well. I got great info from someone here also. But there are a lot more people who want to put you down than help you here. That's why I don't spend any time here. It's a pathetic place. Thanks for your support. Not everyone here is a green eyed monster. But the arrogance of someone to try to tell me that my group measurement was wrong. I guess my caliper was wrong too because I measured with it and with a plug. But OnTarget makes a nice image to post online. It's pretty odd that a hole that a bullet fits in perfectly is somehow double the size of that bullet in the minds of some. It's hilarious really that someone would be so desperate to put down others. But the real word is "pathetic" that they would want to.

deadwooddick
06-03-2016, 12:14 PM
Yer tooting your own horn so loud nobody can hear what yer proselytizing. )chill(

BTW, four shots DO NOT A RECORD GROUP MAKE. So sayeth Obi Wan kenobi. :rolleyes:

HuskerP7M8
06-03-2016, 12:18 PM
Well....Yuh can't say I didn't try to help.

So be it, but some humility and an open mind would go a long ways toward a constructive discussion. You are making some rather common mistakes in measuring groups that I see all to often, but I can't control your willingness to learn.

Landy

Jeff56
06-03-2016, 12:29 PM
Yer tooting your own horn so loud nobody can hear what yer proselytizing. )chill(

BTW, four shots DO NOT A RECORD GROUP MAKE. So sayeth Obi Wan kenobi. :rolleyes:

I never claimed any "record". And I fully expect you people won't hear what I say. I guess you missed the part about me winnint 13 of my last 15 contests I was in too. And I guess you missed the ARA style targets (with the same size targets on a regular sheet of paper) where I got 9 100's out of 12 targets. And you missed the group with the ruler. That one is hanging right here on my wall. I just put a bullet through it to see if the hole was bigger than I said. It isn't. You don't seem to get that my post was about the arrogance of people here and the way they try to drive off any competition. That's just what you're doing. Another fine example of a human who cares nothing for anyone but himself. I don't need your approval. Again I get calls to put on shooting demonstrations. Do you? I could tell you about my exploits but you wouldn't believe me if you were standing right beside me when I did them. That's my point. A mark on a sheet means nothing if there's no hole big enough to get a bullet through with a quarter inch to spare. You people forget that I still have these targets. Some are back at my house that I'm renting out but some are here with me and I can easily show what I said was true. There's no magic bullet that makes a wider group without making an actual hole. Yet some here think there is. I'll say it again. Absurd. And arrogant.

I don't need you. Heck I have my very own fan club. There's nothing quite like those "oohs" and "ahs" I get when I do what few other people can do. I'm very good at this pal. You know I don't usually talk like that but you guys are different. You need to hear it. You chased off someone that might have made you a better shooter. I've got people who invite me over to impress their friends. Do you? But you cool guys keep thinking you're the best and keep treating people like dirt. You have it down. Again ONE OF THE VERY BEST SHOOTERS ON EARTH did post here but left because of people like you.

Goodbye

Pete Wass
06-03-2016, 02:32 PM
I never claimed any "record". And I fully expect you people won't hear what I say. I guess you missed the part about me winnint 13 of my last 15 contests I was in too. And I guess you missed the ARA style targets (with the same size targets on a regular sheet of paper) where I got 9 100's out of 12 targets. And you missed the group with the ruler. That one is hanging right here on my wall. I just put a bullet through it to see if the hole was bigger than I said. It isn't. You don't seem to get that my post was about the arrogance of people here and the way they try to drive off any competition. That's just what you're doing. Another fine example of a human who cares nothing for anyone but himself. I don't need your approval. Again I get calls to put on shooting demonstrations. Do you? I could tell you about my exploits but you wouldn't believe me if you were standing right beside me when I did them. That's my point. A mark on a sheet means nothing if there's no hole big enough to get a bullet through with a quarter inch to spare. You people forget that I still have these targets. Some are back at my house that I'm renting out but some are here with me and I can easily show what I said was true. There's no magic bullet that makes a wider group without making an actual hole. Yet some here think there is. I'll say it again. Absurd. And arrogant.

I don't need you. Heck I have my very own fan club. There's nothing quite like those "oohs" and "ahs" I get when I do what few other people can do. I'm very good at this pal. You know I don't usually talk like that but you guys are different. You need to hear it. You chased off someone that might have made you a better shooter. I've got people who invite me over to impress their friends. Do you? But you cool guys keep thinking you're the best and keep treating people like dirt. You have it down. Again ONE OF THE VERY BEST SHOOTERS ON EARTH did post here but left because of people like you.

Goodbye

That you are the rude and arrogant one in this discussion. What exactly are you looking for here anyway? As was said earlier, this board is mostly about score shooting matches. Were all your "Victories" Group matches or Score matches? Were they sanctioned matches or Club matches? What constitutes a "Victory" for you? If you do any reading here you surely must realize you are participating with some of the best Rimfire shooters in the world here. That's a pretty tough act to compete with as a beginner. Many of us have been seriously competing for two or more decades so a bit of humility doesn't hurt a beginner, regardless of how good they are.

Just sayin - -

Pete

Bill B
06-03-2016, 03:12 PM
Jeff13,

You came here looking for some kind of recognition or validation of your skills, either that you were just itching for an flame war. With the majority of the folks who post and lurk here, if you want anyone to take notice, you need to put up some big scores at a sanctioned match or better yet attend a large National or Regional match and kick some butt and win. That's not arrogance talking or meant to discourage a shooter, that's asking for an accomplishment we recognize. Anyone of the regulars here can post tiny groups for others to ooh and ahh over all day long. That's not what we do, cause that won't cut it here. However, we will ooh and ahh over accomplishments like Ed Hosier's, who recently shot 8 consecutive 250s with a sporter in sanctioned IR50/50 matches. That's something that's never been done before. Your groups are ok, but they are literally a dime a dozen. Sorry if that's not what you are looking for, but it is the honest truth. And if Landy says you measured them wrong - you did.

tim
06-03-2016, 05:19 PM
I mean really, WTF ?????

Boyd Allen
06-03-2016, 05:39 PM
It seems to me that there is an obvious solution to the issue of credibility of reports of skill and accuracy. Either come up with some records from sanctioned matches that show your performance (Come to think of it, the use of a screen name makes this a little tricky.), or lacking those, assuming that you have not gotten rusty, you could enter some sanctioned matches and point us to those results. Beyond that, it seems to me that your attitude is a little less than cordial, which is perhaps why I do not remember any posts asking where you had disappeared to. There are a number of shooters who exhibit great talent, and have excellent equipment. I cannot remember when any have posted as you have here.

Doodaddy
06-03-2016, 06:54 PM
Jeff56,

They say a picture is worth a thousand words and it's pretty obvious no one has explained to you how to measure groups. I'd say there is a small discrepancy in how you measured your 0.067" group vs the correct 0.267" measurement I've made below.

Oh, BTW, none of the other pics you posted can even be measured. It's impossible to measure small groups on Shoot-N-See targets and the rest have either ill defined holes or you make the same mistakes as in this example.

I would have sent a PM, but you've made it obvious that would be a mistake.
If you'd have went about this a little differently, you might have got the help you needed and realized this whole controversy is most likely the result of measurement errors and not a question of rude or wrong comments made by members of this forum. Just saying......

Landy


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff145/HuskerP7M8/BS%202e_zpssnamw9rp.jpg

You already replied what I intended to.

Why people try and measure groups simply by the hole in the paper when they can blatantly see contact on the paper all around that hole is beyond me. No....that paper discolored itself. It wasn't touched by the bullet. :rolleyes: