PDA

View Full Version : trouble throwing charges



LASER
03-02-2016, 09:31 AM
Last summer I went down the short range path for first time. Got all the right things, at least I think so. Problems arose with throwing H4198 with a Harrell. Talked to four million people, read all one can find until blue in the face. My conclusion is to take the Chargemaster to the range and be done with the other variables. Been using it for years, seems to be OK. Could possibly get a newer one as mine is first gen. Checked it against the trusty balance scale, OK. I have a good, reliable remote power source. Need ideas on how to tote thing around and set up at the range,solid, level, out of breeze. etc. Thank you!

LASER

Boyd Allen
03-02-2016, 11:44 AM
A friend, Paul Garin http://www.surestrikesystem.com/ made one for himself and a second for Walt Berger. I believe that it contains a battery for power. Perhaps you can use his idea as a starting point, or simply copy it. Get back to us with your solution.
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af340/fresburgflash/Visalia10-18-09fiveshotunlim009.jpg
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af340/fresburgflash/Visalia10-18-09fiveshotunlim006.jpg

LASER
03-02-2016, 12:13 PM
along those lines myself. Here at home I have my Chargemaster isolated. Sits on a pedestal on a pipe mounted into the concrete with a floor flange. Way solid. Concerned, possibly overly so about the thumping of the sizer and seater (vibration) on the electronic scale. It is a piezoelectric kind a thing and I thought, again possibly too much about possible damage. An idea to isolate the scale on a wind flag kind of pedestal is festering in this senile brain. Please tell me that I am overthinking this thing. Been hearing this about everything I do/did for most of my life. The brain set of a product developer.... "What if" is the constant theme running around in my brain.
Thank you for your kind reply!

Tim Thompson
Hanover PA

CMaier
03-02-2016, 12:39 PM
What are you shooting ?
If a 30 br just load at home..most do.

r44astro
03-02-2016, 01:01 PM
Careful using battery, I do not think charge master has any internal reverse protection. So if you get polarity wrong it can damage. If I was going to use battery I would install diode inside to protect.

Wilbur
03-02-2016, 02:34 PM
Does the rifle shoot better with weighed charges? Don't just say yes if you don't actually know....

jackie schmidt
03-02-2016, 02:39 PM
There are more and more ChargeMasters being used at matches, but I think the jury is still out on whether aggs are getting better because of it.

The axiom used to be that if you were in the load window with a decent barrel, two tenths grn one way or the other just didn't matter.

I have, (as many other have done as well), taken my Rail Gun and shot groups with carefully weighed charges, and then shot groups with thrown charges of the same weight on average, and could not tell the difference.

Anecdotal at best, but sometimes I wonder if the hassle of weighing the charges at a range, outside, in the wind, is worth the effort.

I weigh all of my charges for my 30 BR when I pre-load, but that is in the comfort of my living room with a very nice scale under controled conditions.

LASER
03-02-2016, 03:18 PM
Careful using battery, I do not think charge master has any internal reverse protection. So if you get polarity wrong it can damage. If I was going to use battery I would install diode inside to protect.

all the time as a signal conditioner. I can just unplug battery and go. I checked the signal out of the transformer then out of the battery. Way less noisy. Gun room is all fluorescent. No 60 hertz out of bat.

As I said earlier, I just started shooting a light varmint. It is a 6 Beggs.
In a quest to find why the gun shoots good sometimes and not others I started checking my thrown charges.

The answer to your question Wilbur is I think so but bag manners, bullets etc are still all in question, I did however identify erratic charges being thrown. I want to try group shooting this summer and am just working out the bugs, recognizing of course that I have a long learning curve ahead.

Tim Thompson
Hanover PA

LASER
03-02-2016, 03:28 PM
There are more and more ChargeMasters being used at matches, but I think the jury is still out on whether aggs are getting better because of it.

The axiom used to be that if you were in the load window with a decent barrel, two tenths grn one way or the other just didn't matter.

I have, (as many other have done as well), taken my Rail Gun and shot groups with carefully weighed charges, and then shot groups with thrown charges of the same weight on average, and could not tell the difference.

Anecdotal at best, but sometimes I wonder if the hassle of weighing the charges at a range, outside, in the wind, is worth the effort.

I weigh all of my charges for my 30 BR when I pre-load, but that is in the comfort of my living room with a very nice scale under controlled conditions.


Goin' nuts because you do not know if your charges are correct or the hassle of the Chargemaster at the range. There is also the hassle of learning to use the Culver type powder charge thrower. Sometimes this BR trip is fun, sometimes a KING SIZE HASSLE. Just trying to choose the devil I know and proceed.

Tim Thompson

jackie schmidt
03-02-2016, 07:54 PM
Goin' nuts because you do not know if your charges are correct or the hassle of the Chargemaster at the range. There is also the hassle of learning to use the Culver type powder charge thrower. Sometimes this BR trip is fun, sometimes a KING SIZE HASSLE. Just trying to choose the devil I know and proceed.

Tim Thompson

I have three different brands of powder throwers. One is a big Bruno that I have had 15 years. The other is a Lyman with a Hensler Insert. The third is a RCBS.

No one will throw charges any more accurate than the other, because they all three work exactly the same way.......gravity. The secret to consistancy is trying to do the exact same procedure every time.

But even then, if I sit down and throw 25 charges, weighing each with my Denver Lab Scale, I can expect 85 percent to be within .3 of each other. The others might vary more, either on the plus, or minus side.

The RCBS will throw just as accurate as the other two, it is just a pain to adjust to an exact charge.

Truth is, that is the only advantage of a Benchrest Style thrower. Ease in arriving at an exact average charge. Shooters who pay hundreds of dollars for a given measure thinking it will throw 133 within +-.1 grn are fooling themselves.

You would think that finer grain powders would do better. But the LT30 I have will not throw much better than 133.

If we could actually throw within .3 every time, all of this would be a moot point. But If you sit down and set your measure at 30.0 of 133, I guarantee out of 25 charges, you will have at least five that will be 29.7 or 30.3. Those are the ones that will get you.

Tim Singleton
03-02-2016, 10:29 PM
Because I don't know ill ask. Would a faster powder like 4198's load window be more sensitive to a couple tenth or so difference than 133?
I have tried the chargemaster at the range IMO without some type of enclosure such as the one Boyd posted is an awful experience.

CMaier
03-02-2016, 10:45 PM
MAYBE GENE B will jump in...


Because I don't know ill ask. Would a faster powder like 4198's load window be more sensitive to a couple tenth or so difference than 133?
I have tried the chargemaster at the range IMO without some type of enclosure such as the one Boyd posted is an awful experience.

Apollo
03-02-2016, 11:22 PM
This may be another option to consider - or throw out. Vials.
http://www.specialtybottle.com/glass-bottles/vials/1dram-va1

Vials have their advantages and disadvantages. For me, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Stanley

LASER
03-03-2016, 10:35 AM
Don't be vile; use the vial.

Sorry Stanley, CMaier made me do it.

To what decimal point does the Chargemaster weigh? I just throw with a Harrel. I practice throwing during the long, cold months of Michigan winter. I then check on a digital scale and find my thrown charges are within 0.1 grains.

and thought I had it working. Threw a hole damn pound or so, weighing each charge with a balance scale. Was getting pretty consistent.Sometime later I Went to the range and was all over the place compared to previous trips. Did not think it was powder but went down the list and found wacky weights. They were not even close to each other(+/- .5 or worse) When I did initial load development I went to range with several different charges loaded with the chargemaster, bullets, and the seater. At some point things were going pretty well. Next time out with thrown charges ... From reading previous posts, I think from Boyd, I will have to practice more and check at each loading session if I try the thrown vs weighed. I have been doing this long enough to know that all my issues are possibly not only the powder charge..
One reason I went with the Beggs was simplicity. Was told get H4198 and go shootin'. Bought a Beggs reamer from Kiff. a bushing die from Beggs and a couple of Brux bbls. Had them chambered and screwed on a BAT. I am thinking of contacting Mr. Beggs and asking him if a trip to Texas and tunnel time is possible. Woulda' been nice to do it in October and catch the Grand Prix.
At this point, building whatever it takes to use the chargemaster at the range is the least hassle free option. Perhaps,maybe, I think so. Anyhow I will try it. Heading to the lumber yard soon to be ready when weather breaks.
Tim Thompson
Hanover PA

LASER
03-03-2016, 10:38 AM
This may be another option to consider - or throw out. Vials.
http://www.specialtybottle.com/glass-bottles/vials/1dram-va1

Vials have their advantages and disadvantages. For me, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Stanley

would a body have to take to a two day group shoot?

LASER

jackie schmidt
03-03-2016, 10:49 AM
would a body have to take to a two day group shoot?

LASER

You would need about 150 Vials, if you do not plan on changing the load.

The thing about Vials is you don't need so many pieces of brass made up. But,you can be assured that all of the charges are exact.

But, just like pre-loading, if the load doesn't seem right, you are back to square one.

I shot Pre-loaded rounds for the Crawfish, at times I shot very well, at others, I stunk it up.

jackie schmidt
03-03-2016, 10:52 AM
I then check on a digital scale and find my thrown charges are within 0.1 grains.

I really wish I could do that. But I can't.

Chism G
03-03-2016, 10:56 AM
There is no shortage of ideas in this sport. This is my set up,when I use a charge master measure. Which is not very often.

The aluminum box was custom made,for a Benchrest shooter(retired), by Ziegler. Don't know if Ziegler is still in business. I use a culver measure,bottle removed, as a drop method. If the charge master gets a little wacky, during a match, I just fill the culver measure bottle with powder and keep on trucking. This is a portable set up ,as shown. easily transportable to and from the range.

A cheaper version of this box,could probably be made from wood. The Goal Zero power converter fits in the box behind the Charge Master. One full charge lasts all weekend long.
The Goal zero can also be used to charge a laptop, cell phone, or digital scale,if the need arises.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a182/chismpi/610fac28-7a48-40dc-b722-3838f155813c_zpsph5fdjht.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/chismpi/media/610fac28-7a48-40dc-b722-3838f155813c_zpsph5fdjht.jpg.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a182/chismpi/e28b7b94-146f-4d50-9c5e-c39059605e1a_zpscrspbygu.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/chismpi/media/e28b7b94-146f-4d50-9c5e-c39059605e1a_zpscrspbygu.jpg.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a182/chismpi/5fbc866c-b9fc-44a7-af59-55344875ba3c_zps8a44dgji.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/chismpi/media/5fbc866c-b9fc-44a7-af59-55344875ba3c_zps8a44dgji.jpg.html)


Glenn

Wilbur
03-03-2016, 11:15 AM
Thats a really nice box. Was a shame they didn't make the "latches" simpler or easier to operate. Looks like you changed them for the better. I've got two of them and have tried several ways to keep them closed but it ain't easy. I riveted a simple latch on the top and the catch on the door. That gets it there but it's not closed tightly...tightly enough to keep the stuff inside and I suppose that's all that matters.

CMaier
03-03-2016, 11:30 AM
anyone that thinks they are throwing at 0.1m by checking
with a beam scale or a cheap digital scale,
are just re-enforcing poor behavior.
go read what jackie said.
no way are you throwing .1
jackie said it...not one person challenged him.
watch how many whine at my post.

Chism G
03-03-2016, 11:41 AM
The box in the picture, came especially fitted with screw in latches. I didn't do it. Wouldn't know how. The box closes tightly and stays that way. To lock the box,Screw the latches in snug and remove the Key.




Glenn

Boyd Allen
03-03-2016, 12:02 PM
I have never tried to throw h4198 sc, so I cannot speak to that, but there are a couple of things that are worth saying. Take a look at the records with the understanding that many were shot BC (before Chargemaster) and all of Ococks current records were shot with thrown charges. Also, a getting good with a measure can take a lot of time, and some aptitude, just because an excellent shooter admits to mediocre results does not mean that a thing cannot be done. Shooting and powder throwing are different, if related skills. If you are not getting the results that you would like, the first thing that you need to do is to admit that you may have some learning to do. That may be a lot harder than learning how to do a better job of throwing powder....egos being what they are.

LASER
03-03-2016, 04:09 PM
I have never tried to throw h4198 sc, so I cannot speak to that, but there are a couple of things that are worth saying. Take a look at the records with the understanding that many were shot BC (before Chargemaster) and all of Ococks current records were shot with thrown charges. Also, a getting good with a measure can take a lot of time, and some aptitude, just because an excellent shooter admits to mediocre results does not mean that a thing cannot be done. Shooting and powder throwing are different, if related skills. If you are not getting the results that you would like, the first thing that you need to do is to admit that you may have some learning to do. That may be a lot harder than learning how to do a better job of throwing powder....egos being what they are.
I will be the first one to admit that the thrown charge method requires work on my part. I also have to admit that not having accurate charges is especially frustrating. All the prep etc. yet to perform poorly and not be able to identify the cause detracts from the enjoyment.. The learning curve for this entire Bench Rest/ supreme accuracy endeavor is not linear and I think that I am possibly one third up the scale. Faith in my own aptitude abounds. I spent my entire working career as a master of things much more difficult than throwing a consistent powder charge. Simply trying to make some headway. While, especially in this endeavor, it's the trip, not the destination, sometimes eliminating a hassle or two can be prudent. I doubt if I would have made this statement as a 45 year old but the 65 year old me can allow himself to possibly take the easier path. Scoring with the likes of current record holders seems way way far away. I simply like to bust shells, try to correctly read conditions and do my best.Spending a day or two with shooters, especially the one's who run the shoots make this pastime what it is for me.I have to say that over the years I have found your posts to be most informative and ones that I take as gospel. Never questioning, just read and learn.
Tim Thompson
Hanover PA

LASER
03-03-2016, 04:26 PM
You would need about 150 Vials, if you do not plan on changing the load.

The thing about Vials is you don't need so many pieces of brass made up. But,you can be assured that all of the charges are exact.

But, just like pre-loading, if the load doesn't seem right, you are back to square one.

I shot Pre-loaded rounds for the Crawfish, at times I shot very well, at others, I stunk it up.

is that one could pre-load for a 30 br much easier than a 6 ppc or Beggs. Having never been to a group match there is a lot I do not know, however from what I read and heard, changing loads is pretty much required. I will probally go to on or two matches pre-loaded to get the jist of things and take it from there, as I don't even know how much of a change to make. I hear that some guys change charges, neck tension and seating depth depending on what? Long way to go for this feller.

LASER

Boyd Allen
03-03-2016, 04:53 PM
It sounds like you hare having a great time. Good! Figuring this stuff out is the fun. BTW I have absolutely no problem with using Chargemasters, it is just that I managed to stumble on a better way to throw. My primary motivation is not wanting to haul another box to the range. On tuning changes I suggest that you never practice preloaded. Take your loading equipment and fired cases to the range and go from there, taking notes as you go. Above all, try a bunch of stuff to see what happens, that is the only sure way to know. This applies to wind as well. Take some shots in conditions that you know will not work with a center hold for producing another wallet group, just to learn how a particular condition moves a bullet. Better yet, shoot some video of the flags while you shoot one shot per aiming point under different conditions, with a tuned up load, and a good still air zero. I really like your enthusiasm. The context is a very different, but the words fit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRX6hSGeZs4

CMaier
03-03-2016, 08:02 PM
you talk about poor reading skills...
i thought we were talking about scales...in grains and .1's of a grain .
all the sudden francis is talking about PERCENT

wtf francis

CharlieH
03-03-2016, 08:04 PM
We use digital scales every day while making cores, they are temperature sensitive, require warm up, ( we leave them on 24/7) vary because of a number of other reasons, even a cell phone close by seems to make them go crazy. We use three different scales, trying to find out which one is lying and they are always lying, we consistently use check weights and re-calibrate. When they are good they are very good, but when they are bad, your screwed.
So my question is this, if I can buy a $300 loadmaster and the scale be perfect and right all the time, why wouldn't I buy one to use in our core making business?
Charlie

Wilbur
03-03-2016, 08:35 PM
Depending on placement! If you're winning, don't change anything. If you're losing, change enough stuff so that it will goof you up for two or three matches at the least.

jackie schmidt
03-03-2016, 09:18 PM
Without ever having a Chargemaster, I have suspected the same for a long time. After all, a scale commands the operation. One can't call a single standing scale inaccurate and then call the Chargemaster accurate, can they? We messed around with a friend's Lyman system a few years ago and re-named it Liar. It was off more than our Harrel, our Pact, and our balance beam. Drop them carefully and watch your flags closely.

I hope this satisfies MikeInCo.

Francis, I see shooters at matches place a case on a electronic scale and "zero" it, throw a charge, place it on the scale, take it off to add a tad of powder, and it weighs less when they put it back on. Real reliability.

They only place I trust a scale is in the controlled inviroment of my living room.

jackie schmidt
03-03-2016, 09:53 PM
I may get 200 of those vials, $100 bucks.

CMaier
03-03-2016, 10:15 PM
Francis,
I noticed you ignored the issue.
Choose to call me names rather than man up and admit you are wrong.
Typical behavior by loosers....change the subject and call people names.

And as i suggested, you did not attack jackie on his position, but only me.

Keep calling me names, it does not change your error nor your poor behavior.

Wilbur
03-03-2016, 10:17 PM
Those that begin shooting Benchrest often see it as a big deal when it really isn't. The folks that are winning have one thing in common. All the others have something else in common. The winners have a rifle that's capable of winning while the others don't. No, I don't know why a rifle will or will not win but I know this to be true. Never stop trying to find a winner or quit working on the rifle at hand until you have a rifle that's capable of winning. The differences in a winner and a loser are often difficult to see. Look at the score sheets rather than the bullet holes - always.

LASER
03-04-2016, 08:05 AM
I have never tried to throw h4198 sc, so I cannot speak to that, but there are a couple of things that are worth saying. Take a look at the records with the understanding that many were shot BC (before Chargemaster) and all of Ococks current records were shot with thrown charges. Also, a getting good with a measure can take a lot of time, and some aptitude, just because an excellent shooter admits to mediocre results does not mean that a thing cannot be done. Shooting and powder throwing are different, if related skills. If you are not getting the results that you would like, the first thing that you need to do is to admit that you may have some learning to do. That may be a lot harder than learning how to do a better job of throwing powder....egos being what they are.

Sat STRAIGHT UP IN BED!!! H4198 SC??? Hobbled out to the garage and into my gun room. Sure enough... two jugs of H4198. NOT SC!!!! Starts to make sense. Seems I was throwing charges while cutting powder. I had to have read discussions on this issue. Wonder why it never occurred to me? Probably as a kid loading for my hunting guns it never mattered and I never used a thrower for long range BR. A 65 year old man should know better than to tell somebody how smart he is! Back to the drawing board. Will proceed with plans to load at the range with the Chargemaster. A nice project. Probably get a brand new one. Let one in the gun room for long range pre-loading like I have been and build stuff for short range loading at the range. Will get some SC and practice with the Harrell. I like the idea of not hauling the charge master around and the Culver type is way faster.... I also like to be confident that at least my powder charges are consistent. Plus I have lots of powder. Thank you Boyd! Thank you all for the input. Acquired lots of good advice from this thread.

"What a revolting development this is"
William Bendix in "The Life of Riley"

CYanchycki
03-04-2016, 08:40 AM
What they want about thrown versus weighed charges. For myself it is all about piece of mind for me.

I will agree that matches are won in that 7 minute time frame but I think you need to be in a good psychological state of mind. If that means throwing and weighing charges so be it.

I wish I could trust thrown charges but I cannot. That is me. I have my routine and I do not to **** with it. I may not have all the time to sit and watch flags before my match but my thinking is different. I do not care what the wind is in the match before me, it matters for my match.

My take, do what makes you feel the most comfortable.

Calvin

Tim Singleton
03-04-2016, 09:03 AM
I would also try LT30 in the Beggs. It throws like a dream

Dick Grosbier
03-04-2016, 09:03 AM
Could possibly get a newer one as mine is first gen.

Don't do it I have owned three and the first gen was the fastest and best. Granted it did not have auto repeat.

Dick Grosbier
03-04-2016, 09:07 AM
Does the rifle shoot better with weighed charges? Don't just say yes if you don't actually know....

Probably not. But it is one less thing to worry about.

Dick

Chism G
03-04-2016, 09:14 AM
This discussion and my experience throwing powder at matches,makes me want to go back to shooting Rim Fire BR. Been thinking about it lately.

The last time I was at a Rim Fire Match,I saw Rifles with tuners on tuners attached to the barrel. :(

Its a tough game,anyway you look at it.



Glenn

glp
03-04-2016, 10:44 AM
I think it was Dick Wright who said some years ago that the nice thing about rimfire was that you could watch the spent case bounce on the concrete and not have to pick it up. It is an option, I guess Glenn. I think too that too many make too much of too many of the variables of Centerfire.

ranges ask rimfire shoots to sweep up after themselves. Human nature being what it is, some do and some don't. Me? I sweep up, save the casings and sell them as scrap from time to time. Helps me buy more rimfire ammo!

Apollo
03-04-2016, 11:09 AM
LASER - please keep in mind in your quest for accuracy/precision. Many times people will spend many hours trying to get that extra .0XX of an inch (or less) only to lose .X of an inch (or more) because they didn't spend the same amount of time practicing shooting in the wind. I think thrown vs weighed charges falls in the category of .0XX.

Stanley

P.S. Francis isn't a loser. He just looks like one

JerrySharrett
03-04-2016, 11:45 AM
We did manage to get bench time in this odd winter - warm then cold, then back again. There are some southern matches coming up and I don't want those confederates taking advantage of me.

Francis, you and Jan head South to River Bend next weekend. Supposed to be in the 80's.

LVHV 100/200....



.

Wilbur
03-04-2016, 03:20 PM
So...what y'all seem to be saying is that weighed charges keep you happier than thrown charges. Doesn't matter at all if it's better or not you're just saying that weighed charges make more sense than thrown charges. Pretty good answers!

CMaier
03-04-2016, 04:12 PM
Wilbur Wilbur Wilbur.....
Where did anyone say that a thrown charge was more accurate than a well weighed charge ???

I do not think anyone said that at all.
They did say do what makes you happy because the average shooter cannot tell the difference.




So...what y'all seem to be saying is that weighed charges keep you happier than thrown charges. Doesn't matter at all if it's better or not you're just saying that weighed charges make more sense than thrown charges. Pretty good answers!

Tim Singleton
03-04-2016, 04:15 PM
I know for myself anyway. When I miss that little angle change. It didn't matter whether the charge was thrown or weighed

CYanchycki
03-04-2016, 04:26 PM
What you said in your last post. You must be very confident in your abilities that it does not matter to you.

Here is a challenge for you all.

Try and organize, run, score and shoot a match and feel confident. I have done it and I will tell you my days of doing that are over. So if weighing is one little that works for some and keeps them in that Zen place they need or want...... do it.

I know I am not good enough of a shooter yet to feel or see that weighing makes no difference. 8 years of shooting and I have YET to shoot a teen agg in a yardage. Maybe the day will come now that I have a rifle built by one of the best.......

Tim Singleton
03-04-2016, 04:44 PM
What I'm confident in saying is if I miss that change in my flag a perfectly weighed charge wouldn't help me

jackie schmidt
03-04-2016, 04:58 PM
What I'm confident in saying is if I miss that change in my flag a perfectly weighed charge wouldn't help me

I proved that point several times last week end at The Crawfish:eek:

CMaier
03-04-2016, 05:01 PM
WELL if you were weighing on a .0001 nano scale , you would have had the teen ag long ago....

Lol sorry could not pass it up

I have not shot a teen ag in practice!...
Ok i only shoot 22rf in comp.


What you said in your last post. You must be very confident in your abilities that it does not matter to you.

Here is a challenge for you all.

Try and organize, run, score and shoot a match and feel confident. I have done it and I will tell you my days of doing that are over. So if weighing is one little that works for some and keeps them in that Zen place they need or want...... do it.

I know I am not good enough of a shooter yet to feel or see that weighing makes no difference. 8 years of shooting and I have YET to shoot a teen agg in a yardage. Maybe the day will come now that I have a rifle built by one of the best.......

LASER
03-04-2016, 05:53 PM
What I'm confident in saying is if I miss that change in my flag a perfectly weighed charge wouldn't help me

the one who started this mess. What I discovered was that my thrown charges were not nearly as accurate as my weighed ones. Not only were they not accurate, they were way the hell and gone off. I went on to say that I will continue to weigh charges until such time that I can throw powder consistently enough to"probally know" that I screwed up somewheres else besides the damn powder charge. This would indeed go a ways toward making me happy. This assuming of course that the charge I threw or wanted to throw was the one required in the first place..All the info gleaned from the contributors of this thread will go toward that end. Thanks to all again!

LASER

blades
03-04-2016, 06:19 PM
I know for myself anyway. When I miss that little angle change. It didn't matter whether the charge was thrown or weighed

ding , ding, ding. ;)

CYanchycki
03-04-2016, 06:51 PM
You throw a charge with a target weight of 30.1grs. Some throw 1/10th high some 1/10th low for the same match. That is an overall spread of 2/10th. I know I load develop in changes of 3/10th. 2/10th is pretty close to that. From what I have heard and read over the years 3/10ths could be the difference of being in and out of tune. Am I not right on what I have heard over the years?

Why would you take the chance that one is in tune? And then miss a switch and the outcome is even worse?

Just asking. There are way more here that know more than I do.

Tim Singleton
03-04-2016, 06:59 PM
I'll say this then bow out to the more experienced as well.
What I'm trying to say is if you miss a slight condition change you've missed it.
The charge whether perfectly weighed or not isn't going to help. A load that's off a tenth or two is no where near as important as reading the flags. Time is better spent learning the flags than worrying about weighing powder

CharlieH
03-04-2016, 07:48 PM
Now, Jason, you were doing so well until that last thing.

I should be able to get some fruitful practice in during these next few days. No, wait, is that futile practice? We did manage to get bench time in this odd winter - warm then cold, then back again. There are some southern matches coming up and I don't want those confederates taking advantage of me.

Cheryl and I will take you and Jan out to a cool place to eat if you would only come down. I know its a haul, but we miss seeing yall.
Charlie

CMaier
03-04-2016, 07:54 PM
The problem has been documented that thrown n133 is not typically plus or minus 0.1..but more like .3 or .4.
It was posted again last year by mike in co after his trip to a 100/200 match.

It has been posted by jackie several times.

I said once before you cannot test to 0.1 with a scale that is only 0.1.
I have a big engineering background, quality control, statistics.
It appears that most do not want to know, they want to continue doing what they have been doing, no desire to learn.
Come visit in so cal, but bring your own water...



You throw a charge with a target weight of 30.1grs. Some throw 1/10th high some 1/10th low for the same match. That is an overall spread of 2/10th. I know I load develop in changes of 3/10th. 2/10th is pretty close to that. From what I have heard and read over the years 3/10ths could be the difference of being in and out of tune. Am I not right on what I have heard over the years?

Why would you take the chance that one is in tune? And then miss a switch and the outcome is even worse?

Just asking. There are way more here that know more than I do.

Randy Jarvais
03-04-2016, 08:01 PM
when I miss, I know it wasn't the powder charge, therefore it had to be something else. Now, I try to find that something else. Was it table manners or a missed condition. If table manners were good, then something down field, but that isn't always apparent. If it had been apparent I wouldn't have pulled the trigger. Even so, I now investigate more diligently KNOWING it was out there. I shoot score but do test using groups even on the score target. When the load opens up, I know the tune is bad and not because of an over or under charged case. For me, powder charges are one less variable to sort out given that the charge is correct. I am not saying weighing is more accurate, just better for me. As Wilbur said, it makes me happy!

In a different vein, at most score matches, shooting two guns with at most three relays and many times just two, there isn't time to reload at the range anymore. I have to go pre-loaded so weighing becomes an easier proposition in a climate controlled environment.

jackie schmidt
03-04-2016, 08:12 PM
when I miss, I know it wasn't the powder charge, therefore it had to be something else. Now, I try to find that something else. Was it table manners or a missed condition. If table manners were good, then something down field, but that isn't always apparent. If it had been apparent I wouldn't have pulled the trigger. Even so, I now investigate more diligently KNOWING it was out there. I shoot score but do test using groups even on the score target. When the load opens up, I know the tune is bad and not because of an over or under charged case. For me, powder charges are one less variable to sort out given that the charge is correct. I am not saying weighing is more accurate, just better for me. As Wilbur said, it makes me happy!

In a different vein, at most score matches, shooting two guns with at most three relays and many times just two, there isn't time to reload at the range anymore. I have to go pre-loaded so weighing becomes an easier proposition in a climate controlled environment.

Just as a note. At a registered Match, the Directors have to give shooters time to load. I believe the rule is 25 minutes from cease fire to commence fire.

JerrySharrett
03-04-2016, 10:33 PM
Do they allow Union troops there?
80? Not sure I could handle that.
How early can a guy who needs practice get on the club grounds? Say Thursday?
Are you going? When will you be there?

I'm going Wensday. I think Jim is actually opening Monday. Jan can watch TV in my camper or we'll set her up to shoot!


.

adamsgt
03-07-2016, 02:02 PM
and thought I had it working. Threw a hole damn pound or so, weighing each charge with a balance scale. Was getting pretty consistent.Sometime later I Went to the range and was all over the place compared to previous trips. Did not think it was powder but went down the list and found wacky weights. They were not even close to each other(+/- .5 or worse) When I did initial load development I went to range with several different charges loaded with the chargemaster, bullets, and the seater. At some point things were going pretty well. Next time out with thrown charges ... From reading previous posts, I think from Boyd, I will have to practice more and check at each loading session if I try the thrown vs weighed. I have been doing this long enough to know that all my issues are possibly not only the powder charge..
One reason I went with the Beggs was simplicity. Was told get H4198 and go shootin'. Bought a Beggs reamer from Kiff. a bushing die from Beggs and a couple of Brux bbls. Had them chambered and screwed on a BAT. I am thinking of contacting Mr. Beggs and asking him if a trip to Texas and tunnel time is possible. Woulda' been nice to do it in October and catch the Grand Prix.
At this point, building whatever it takes to use the chargemaster at the range is the least hassle free option. Perhaps,maybe, I think so. Anyhow I will try it. Heading to the lumber yard soon to be ready when weather breaks.
Tim Thompson
Hanover PA

With the oil bust you can probably now get a Motel 6 room in Odessa for less than $250.00. Been to Gene's tunnel twice and it's a fantastic place to learn tuning. Just wish I had taken better notes. If Gene ever lets me come back I'll videotape everything.

As far as protecting the Chargemaster, some people just cut a hole in the side of a cardboard box. I'm probably going to be limiting my, away from home, benchrest shooting to Raton where you load indoors (away from the roll-up door).

Wilbur
03-07-2016, 05:20 PM
Wilbur Wilbur Wilbur.....
Where did anyone say that a thrown charge was more accurate than a well weighed charge ???

I do not think anyone said that at all.
They did say do what makes you happy because the average shooter cannot tell the difference.

I read and re-read what I wrote (what you quoted) and can't find what you're talking about.

CMaier
03-07-2016, 05:27 PM
Then we should not worry about it

I read and re-read what I wrote (what you quoted) and can't find what you're talking about.

Wilbur
03-07-2016, 05:46 PM
Well....you can't just type anything and say don't worry about it. Did you make a mistake or did I write something anywhere related to your reply.

Tim Singleton
03-07-2016, 06:20 PM
Most that throw enough can kind of feel when one is way off. I double check on a small scale if it feels wrong when I throw it.
If you wanna weigh or some other method than throwing then by all means do what you feel is necessary.

The importance of weighing IMO is lost in this thread. It's not case to case accuracy that's as important as keeping you measure adjusted through out the day as the weight and volume of the powder changes
This is speaking of short range in a ppc

Wilbur
03-07-2016, 06:37 PM
I don't know why we're talking about it. There are those that do and those that don't....neither is gonna switch.

I'll ask two rhetorical questions:

How many that weigh powder lose the match?

How many that don't weigh powder lose the match?

Randy Jarvais
03-07-2016, 08:02 PM
All but one each match. ;) Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

JerrySharrett
03-07-2016, 08:07 PM
I keep and use a RCBCS Chargemaster in my reloading room. I carry 2 Chargemasters on the road. When I dial in a weight that is exactly what I get....good enough...so there!!


Francis, you and Jan coming to the Bended River or not!!
I miss Stephen Perry too. He knew a lot about this stuff.


.