PDA

View Full Version : Reloading Presses



Jammer Six
11-21-2015, 10:34 PM
I'm looking for a new press.

I've read on the net that several noted folks, including the U.S. Palma team and David Tubbs use Dillons. However, I've never found or read any definitive posts from any of those folks claiming that's so.

So, first, I'm interested in reading links to anything they wrote saying they use Dillons, and second, I'd be interested in knowing how heavily they modified their Dillons to use them for long range.

Given that it seems to be an accepted fact that long range requires single stage presses, I'm surprised at the claims, and would like to find out the truth.

virg
11-22-2015, 12:32 AM
I'm looking for a new press.

I've read on the net that several noted folks, including the U.S. Palma team and David Tubbs use Dillons. However, I've never found or read any definitive posts from any of those folks claiming that's so.

So, first, I'm interested in reading links to anything they wrote saying they use Dillons, and second, I'd be interested in knowing how heavily they modified their Dillons to use them for long range.

Given that it seems to be an accepted fact that long range requires single stage presses, I'm surprised at the claims, and would like to find out the truth.

My friend who is a "high master" service rifle shooter, used to shoot bench rest. He used a single press then. But as a service rifle competitor, the amount of ammo used for practice and match participation make single press use impracticable (thousands of rounds fired per year) and he has used a Dillion multi use press for years as do many service rifle and high power rifle shooters. He would not use one if it was not up to the job.

Travelor
11-22-2015, 09:52 AM
As the above have noted, it all depends on the amount of rounds you need to load. For years I shot IDPA pistol matches and used a Dillon. If I remember correctly, when a supplier was loading for the US Palma matches, two presses were used to due the number of precision dies and the powder dispenser needed.

Currently I shoot F-Class and Benchrest rifles and use a Forster C0-Ax press for F-Class ( http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/forster-co-ax%C2%AE-press/ ) and a small portable press for Benchrest.

Dusty Stevens
11-22-2015, 10:43 AM
All you need to make a dillon load match ready ammo is a precision toolhead. There are a couple different ones

CMaier
11-22-2015, 12:07 PM
what long range are you talking about ?
that answer will lead to what press.
mil/dcm long range targets are 2 moa 10 ring(20 inches at 1000 yds) and 1 moa x-ring (10 inches), benchrest targets are much smaller.

jim1K
11-22-2015, 12:20 PM
Yes sir, In BR. the 10 ring at 1000 is 7" and the x ring is 3" Big difference……… jim

Jammer Six
11-22-2015, 07:40 PM
Two ranges: 600 yards and 1000 yards.

CMaier
11-23-2015, 01:04 AM
you gave the DISTANCE, not the TYPE of shooting.
Two ranges: 600 yards and 1000 yards.

Jammer Six
11-23-2015, 02:56 AM
Pretend I don't know anything about it.

Travelor
11-23-2015, 08:53 AM
Please correct me if I am wrong, but the "problem" I see with progressive presses for long distance is the powder measure accuracy.

When I load for accuracy in a bench or F-Class rifle I weigh each charge to the .02 grain. I have Dillon and love it for pistol and informal semi-auto rifles and believe the powder measure is at least as good as any other one. But I don't see how the powder measure can throw uniform charges to enable the most accurate ammo.

If I remember correctly this was one item when the US Palma ammo was loaded that required another powder measure and two presses.

CMaier
11-23-2015, 12:55 PM
Kind of hard to answer PART of a question.
Yes a dilllon can be used for long range mil type shooting. Go do some searching on the subject online.
G David Tubbs used a prometheus scale with his dillon.
From what i have read, this will not work for benchrest shooting at 600/1000.


Pretend I don't know anything about it.

Jammer Six
11-23-2015, 07:19 PM
Please correct me if I am wrong, but the "problem" I see with progressive presses for long distance is the powder measure accuracy.

There was no problem, then, with the bullet seat/crimp?

CMaier
11-23-2015, 08:20 PM
Crimp ??
In a target load ?


There was no problem, then, with the bullet seat/crimp?

Jammer Six
11-26-2015, 03:43 AM
I take it that no one has any such links, then?

And that no one here uses a Dillon for 600 or 1000 yard ammo?

CMaier
11-26-2015, 11:14 AM
This is a BENCHREST forum/site. Very little use of dillon presses in that type of shooting.
If you go to a dcm/cmp/nra site/forum you may get input on press use for that type of shooting.

We asked a question about type of shooting, you chose to not answer.

Jammer Six
11-26-2015, 07:18 PM
I thought there were more of you.

Okay, you don't use Dillon, and you have no links, then.

Dusty Stevens
11-26-2015, 08:54 PM
We've all got dillons- we just dont use them to load match ammo. It can load decent ammo if you follow the advice given already. It needs a toolhead upgrade and a prometheus on top. Other than those routes its good for loading lots of pistol rounds fast

Jammer Six
11-27-2015, 02:51 AM
We've all got dillons- we just dont use them to load match ammo.

I see.

I was looking for anyone who could back the claim that it's reasonable to use a 650 for match ammo.

blades
11-27-2015, 12:33 PM
Shot a lot of competition back in the day various types. used all kinds of semi auto presses, when they muck up its a huge mess.... and they will muck up. went back to single stage across the board. No over/under charges or improper primer insertion and all the rest of the little gremlins that happen.

CMaier
11-27-2015, 12:39 PM
I think you have been told.
Not for BENCHREST, yes for cmp/dcm/nra.
Have you done a search on the net for an answer ??
Yes g david tubbs...11 time national champ, has used dillons to load with, but not a stock press.

Just because a benchrest forum cannot confirm something, about a different
type of shooting, does not mean it cannot be done.



I see.

I was looking for anyone who could back the claim that it's reasonable to use a 650 for match ammo.

jim1K
11-27-2015, 03:49 PM
You may get away with a progressive loader, for F class. I don't think the powder measures is up to the task, I did some good loading on one for an AR. using 8208 and Harrells measure mount separate from the press to reduce the vibration. Now to use and load a sub .1 gun, it won't happen. BR. at 600 and 1000 is just to demanding 1/4 min.+ loading and i feel the same for F class if you want are on top of the game…….. you can't leave anything on the table…….. jim

Wilbur
11-27-2015, 05:32 PM
Jammer - Pretty sure you just need somebody to say it's OK. As it turns out, jim1K knows what he's talking about. I ain't sayin that the others don't but rather I do know that jim1K has successfully shot long range. I think he's telling you to use something other than the progressive loader to ensure success (loading) but I'm not certain.

CMaier
11-27-2015, 05:57 PM
Ok one more time.
You are talking to the wrong people about the wrong subject.
Go do an NRA american rifleman article search.
The ammo for the 90/91 palma match was loaded on dillon presses.
800/900/1000 yards, 7.62x51 with 155 gr bullets.

But again it aint benchrest.

You never defined type of shooting.

Wayne Shaw
11-27-2015, 07:01 PM
Give it a rest.

Jammer Six
11-27-2015, 08:21 PM
Jammer - Pretty sure you just need somebody to say it's OK. As it turns out, jim1K knows what he's talking about.

Actually, I was all set to buy the 650 when I heard that no one uses them for long range. Then I heard that wasn't true, that some very well known people used them to load for matches. Tubbs has been mentioned, but that claim remains unsubstantiated.

So my intention is to buy a single stage, but I thought I'd ask exactly the questions I asked in my first post: if anyone had links to those people about their Dillons. As the thread went on, it occurred to me to ask if any of you guys used Dillons for benchrest, and it became clear that none of you do.

Meanwhile, I resisted the urge to cross post this thread to the thread asking why new people aren't joining benchrest shooting.

Tim Singleton
11-27-2015, 08:45 PM
You are right in a way about why new people aren't joining Benchrest. You just have to have thick skin.
When a new guy and I am one. When you ask a question and the answer isn't what you want to hear and you don't want to hear it. Then the new guy has to be thick skinned enough to take what's coming if he continues on

When they share their hard earned experience you have to listen even if it's not what you want to hear

CMaier
11-27-2015, 10:27 PM
Not once had you said you were interested in LONG RANGE BENCH REST.
Never.
You were asked multiple times, no reply.

g david tubbs does not shoot BENCH REST.

It really works best, when you ask a specific question, not
a generality.

there are several long range br clubs in the northwest.

Jammer Six
11-27-2015, 11:08 PM
After all this drama, my original questions stand.

In spite of everyone's attempt to troll and distract, none of you have answered them. It's clear to me that some of you didn't read the questions, that some of you wanted to talk about the things you wanted to talk about rather than try to answer my questions.

Rather than assume the new guy is wrong, listening to the questions they ask, and answering them, (as opposed to the answering the questions you hear, or, even worse, the question you want to answer) would greatly benefit your sport.

It doesn't make any difference to me. If I want to shoot long range, bench rest or rainbow guns, all are available to me near Seattle.

Dusty Stevens
11-28-2015, 01:14 AM
I'm looking for a new press.

I've read on the net that several noted folks, including the U.S. Palma team and David Tubbs use Dillons. However, I've never found or read any definitive posts from any of those folks claiming that's so.

So, first, I'm interested in reading links to anything they wrote saying they use Dillons, and second, I'd be interested in knowing how heavily they modified their Dillons to use them for long range.

Given that it seems to be an accepted fact that long range requires single stage presses, I'm surprised at the claims, and would like to find out the truth.

The truth is tubb used one to prove it can be done. He doesnt shoot benchrest so he doesnt require the precision. His dillon press was modified with the precision toolhead i mentioned and to solve the other issue he mounted a prometheus scale there to handle the powder. He did this to prove that he could load competition rounds on it but whats not said is that he doesnt shoot benchrest so precision to him is like what a dillon can do stock. So if you require sling shooting accuracy or are loading for a 500yd hunting rifle you can put $3k plus into a dillon and load 2moa rounds. With the precision benchrest requires jesus couldnt load our ammo on a dillon and win. So if you like to tinker, grab one and do the mods that are well known and get you some ammo- maybe youll be able to figure out the next weakest link and improve it more. David tubb is top of his game but that game isnt benchrest. Just the same as taking loading advice from byron furguson on his favorite br loads- it just aint the same.

jim1K
11-28-2015, 07:47 AM
Lets look at the cost, a 650 + a tool head and the prometheus scale. these are your major investments. Compare that to a coax press and a A&D120i scale and a 21st century hyd. seater Dies are a wash for both. The second is proven to shoot in 2" at 1000 yds now you can make your own decision. I like the red one over the 650 myself but would i go to a match with rounds i loaded with it? never happen……… jim

canuck
11-28-2015, 09:42 AM
I have never shot in any firearm competition( only archery) but have been thinking of giving it a go. I currently have a co-ax press. What are most BR shooters using for a press? Any special tips would be greatly appreciated....

Travelor
11-28-2015, 10:16 AM
I'm an old shooter and been reloading for 50+ years, but new to precision benchrest. Most BR shooters are using an arbor press and Wilson or other custom dies. They have the entire reloading "kit" in a box that they take to the range and load there so they can adjust for the conditions.

I am using a Harrell's press with threaded dies as this is what my BR gunsmith (Dusty Stevens) has had the custom dies made for my gun.

Just an FYI, I think the 21st Century primer seater is very very nice and probably THE primer seater to use.

Wilbur
11-28-2015, 10:45 AM
I did pretty good with a relatively cheap (at the time) RCBS. I think it was an RCBS Jr but I'll go dig it out if necessary. I believe Bart Sauter and/or Billy Stevens used a co-ax press once upon a time. Thing is, you don't need a large press but rather something that will size the case and knock out the old primer. If you can get your hands on one of those Hood presses you would be good to go.....forever. I haven't fired a shot in many years and there may be a better press out there somewhere for those that FL size. The smaller the better as long as it does what you need to do...and does it easily. If you have a press such as the Hood press, you can leave your arbor press at home as well.

All that said, here's the deal. Reloading your cases can be done with any equipment you choose from a simple Wilson setup to such as the Hood press. The end result is the same - loaded cases.

CMaier
11-28-2015, 12:17 PM
Your claim that the original question stands, proves a couple of things.
One, you do not read well.
Two,you still do not understand that shooting 1000 yard benchrest is not the same as shooting 1000 yard cmp/dcm/nra.


We tried to help, you chose to not provide answers to our questions, so there are no answers for you.

I am done wasting my time with you.


QUOTE=Jammer Six;767791]After all this drama, my original questions stand.

In spite of everyone's attempt to troll and distract, none of you have answered them. It's clear to me that some of you didn't read the questions, that some of you wanted to talk about the things you wanted to talk about rather than try to answer my questions.

Rather than assume the new guy is wrong, listening to the questions they ask, and answering them, (as opposed to the answering the questions you hear, or, even worse, the question you want to answer) would greatly benefit your sport.

It doesn't make any difference to me. If I want to shoot long range, bench rest or rainbow guns, all are available to me near Seattle.[/QUOTE]

Wayne Shaw
11-28-2015, 05:24 PM
Give it a rest already Mike......the horse has long been dead.

Jammer Six
11-29-2015, 09:11 AM
If not Tubb, then, who is the hero at the top of your game, and what does he use to load?

jim1K
11-29-2015, 01:04 PM
If not Tubb, then, who is the hero at the top of your game, and what does he use to load?






None……… You were told, but i see you are a slow learner. Use you dillion you will be easy to beat……….. jim sorry Wilber

classcat
11-29-2015, 11:29 PM
Here ya go Jammer. Give him a ring and get it straight from the horses mouth. Get back to us with his answer.

Search Results
Contact Us - David Tubb Accuracy & Precision Gun Parts
www.davidtubb.com/index.php?route=information/contact
Our Location. Address: David Tubb Accuracy and Precision Gun Parts 800 N 2nd St Canadian, TX 79014. Telephone: 806-323-9488 ...

Joe P.
Phoenix Az.

Dusty Stevens
11-30-2015, 02:17 AM
Has david tubb ever shot BR? I wish he would give it a go.

Jammer Six
11-30-2015, 04:34 AM
I sent him an email through that very form before I started this thread.

It's a myth, as far as I can determine.

jim1K
11-30-2015, 08:58 AM
Tubb says he can hold 5" at a 1000 with a sling, is that him or the loaded 6 xc rounds? or all the above? I will tell you 5" groups in 1000 yd. BR.you will find you targets in the box or a pile with a rock on it, not hanging on the board……… jim

Dusty Stevens
11-30-2015, 02:16 PM
I sent him an email through that very form before I started this thread.

It's a myth, as far as I can determine.

I dont think its a myth. He used to have advertisements when he sold prometheus scales. I think he sold dillons already modified ready to go. I have seen a picture i know

Dusty Stevens
11-30-2015, 02:21 PM
Here you go jammer. Scott is the real deal not a tubb

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3881226.0

classcat
11-30-2015, 02:30 PM
Just got off the phone with Tubb Precision. Why not call him Jammer ? The # is above.

Dusty; Your link is 404

Jammer Six
11-30-2015, 03:46 PM
Thanks for the link, Dusty! That's what I've been looking for!

Dusty Stevens
11-30-2015, 04:45 PM
Wonder why you cant get the link cat? Seems to be working

classcat
11-30-2015, 05:11 PM
Wonder why you cant get the link cat? Seems to be working

Thats weird. I just got in with no problem, this morning it was a 404.

Joe P.
Phx Az.

Dick Grosbier
11-30-2015, 05:21 PM
I currently have a co-ax press. What are most BR shooters using for a press?

There are lighter, more portable, and smaller presses, but none better IMO.

Doug Kennedy
11-30-2015, 08:29 PM
Here you go jammer. Scott is the real deal not a tubb

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3881226.0

Hey Dusty,
I seen where you used a co-axel press. Please tell me the pros and cons about it. I've had one for 3 years now and I am not at all impressed with it.

Dusty Stevens
11-30-2015, 09:09 PM
I own one of each press. You cant use any tall dies in it and cant use any die that has to get close to the base unless you use regular shellholders- then you have a cumbersome press that doesnt work any better than a $79 rcbs partner

Richard
11-30-2015, 09:28 PM
the rcbs partner press with good results. It's not in the press, it's the die that counts.

Richard Brensing

jim1K
12-02-2015, 07:55 AM
I own one of each press. You cant use any tall dies in it and cant use any die that has to get close to the base unless you use regular shellholders- then you have a cumbersome press that doesnt work any better than a $79 rcbs partner






Really? What tall dies are used in bench rest? If they don't size enough you cut the die off the same as any press that hits the shell holder. I have almost zero run out with a coax and that is better than the lee cast press some make bullets on. The A2 was the only press that did not flex and almost zero run out……… jim

jackie schmidt
12-02-2015, 09:26 AM
In precision shooting, the shooter is looking for specific things in his loading equipment.

Proper sizing, consistent seating depth, and straightness of the finished round.

Any press/die combination that achieves this is a good setup.

How many of you actually check your rounds, or do you just rely on your equipment to do the job correctly?

Dusty Stevens
12-02-2015, 09:52 AM
I was referring to any micrometer top die jim. Whidden, redding, forster, etc.

Dusty Stevens
12-02-2015, 09:59 AM
I actually do check runout on things. Ive found like jackie did years ago, a wore out partner press makes as good as any. Its all in the dies from what ive found. A sloppy press lets your dies do their job with no influence.

jackie schmidt
12-02-2015, 11:30 AM
I actually do check runout on things. Ive found like jackie did years ago, a wore out partner press makes as good as any. Its all in the dies from what ive found. A sloppy press lets your dies do their job with no influence.

Bingo.

Asa Yam
12-02-2015, 01:02 PM
I've read on the net that several noted folks, including the U.S. Palma team and David Tubbs use Dillons. However, I've never found or read any definitive posts from any of those folks claiming that's so.

So, first, I'm interested in reading links to anything they wrote saying they use Dillons, and second, I'd be interested in knowing how heavily they modified their Dillons to use them for long range.

Given that it seems to be an accepted fact that long range requires single stage presses, I'm surprised at the claims, and would like to find out the truth.

As noted previously, Dillons are not commonly used for loading benchrest ammo. David Tubb (no "s") uses one for loading good quality ammo for highpower. The US Palma Team has used 550s and 650s for loading practice ammo. Other members of the LR community use progressives for loading their ammo as well

Common modifications to Dillon presses for loading LR ammo involve tinkering with or changing the powder metering system to achieve more uniform results. Whether the change involves a different measure (i.e., Redding or Prometheus), or measuring the powder charge on the press (using a visual indicator system) depends on the intended goals and the volume of ammo required. For Palma '92 (held in Raton, NM), all the ammo was loaded on 550s. However, only ammo for the Long Range Team Match (16 shooter teams, 3x 45 rounds/shooter/day for score, + 6 additional sighters/day) was loaded using the visual indicator system. People may use toolheads from other manufacturers for improved uniformity as well - see the linked article to Scott Harris' post on another forum for an example.

Additional mods may include surface ground shellplates (more uniform results between stations), and modifying the primer seater (producing a "rounded" head instead of flat - supposed to help with consistency of ignition in machine guns).

Would have to look at Nancy Tompkins' book (available online at http://rifleshootingbynancy.com/ if it can't be found in shooting supply stores) to see if the loading rig for Palma '92 is discussed. (Author of the loading section is Middleton Tompkins, who greatly aided in developing and testing the ammo.) Believe Glenn Zediker discussed loading ammo in one of his books as well ( http://www.zediker.com/books/handloading/hlmain.html ).

Hope this helps.

Asa

jim1K
12-02-2015, 02:18 PM
I was referring to any micrometer top die jim. Whidden, redding, forster, etc.





I don't use any kind of a micrometer die including a seater die for a arbor press I never seen the need, shims on the seater die and nothing on the sizer die. As i mentioned before i do check run out in each stage of loading, if there is a problem i want to address it. I don't carry a press with me like short range, don't have time to load at a match. You are lucky to have time to clean. .. jim

mrspradlin
12-02-2015, 02:18 PM
JammerSix I dont have an answer to your question but would like to talk to you about where you shoot. I am in Tacoma and shoot BR but know a few shooters that you might interested in speaking with or you may even shoot with them.
PM me if you care to chat
Matt

Dave Rabin
12-02-2015, 02:34 PM
Jammer Six,

As you may already know, John Whidden is one of the premier long range highpower prone shooters in the country. The last I heard, he loads on a Dillon, though he uses a lab grade scale to weigh powder charges. You can read an article about it, including a photo of his setup, here: http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek059/

The pertinent part of the article for present purposes is as follows:

"For most of my reloading I de-cap, full-length size, prime, and seat bullets with a Dillon progressive press. However, I’ve removed the Dillon powder measure and replaced that with a funnel. I throw the charges with an RCBS UniFlow, then trickle to 0.1 grain, and weigh each charge with a Denver Instrument APX-200, a milligram lab scale. Once I’m satisfied with the charge, I pour it through the funnel into the re-sized case. Then the loading procedure returns to progressive mode."

John is a mechanically-oriented guy who also operates a gunsmithing and shooting products business. He makes and sells toolheads for the Dillon, though I have not used them. See http://www.whiddengunworks.com/products/.

I've never met John but I know several people who have, and everyone says he's a very nice guy. His website has contact info and I bet he'd give you information about his setup if you contact him.

I regret that this thread got a little off track. I load for both short range benchrest and mid-range and long range highpower, and would be glad to answer whatever other questions you might have, to the best of my limited ability. Feel free to email me at drabin55 {at} cs.com.

Dave Rabin

Dusty Stevens
12-02-2015, 03:37 PM
I don't use any kind of a micrometer die including a seater die for a arbor press I never seen the need, shims on the seater die and nothing on the sizer die. As i mentioned before i do check run out in each stage of loading, if there is a problem i want to address it. I don't carry a press with me like short range, don't have time to load at a match. You are lucky to have time to clean. .. jim

When me and bart shot 1000yds we had time between groups to clean, load ammo, go to town- bart even took a nap one time. They rotated relays and he had 4.5hrs between his groups. From daylight til dark-6 groups!

jim1K
12-02-2015, 03:39 PM
A friend of mine shoots F class and just came back from the national, i ask him how many record rounds he loaded. 500 + record rounds for national, all on a single stage press and high master shooter so he has been at it awhile…… and he seats his bullets on a 21st century hyd. arbor press………. jim

Jammer Six
12-02-2015, 10:03 PM
Thanks for the links, guys, and thanks for the invitation, mrspradlin!

jim1K
12-03-2015, 08:26 AM
When me and bart shot 1000yds we had time between groups to clean, load ammo, go to town- bart even took a nap one time. They rotated relays and he had 4.5hrs between his groups. From daylight til dark-6 groups!





Dusty, A national is a AGG. and a walk in the park. A regular match are with shoot off's. In one day 2 light and 2 heavy and with the possibility of four shoot offs and a double on the week end is a killer. The chance you are on the last relay in light and you may be on the first relay of heavy. Two relays latter you are in light gun shoot off and the next relay you are in heavy gun shoot off. Then it starts all over again. Point is if you are wining relays you have very limited time, I don't have time to clean the light gun as often as it should, because the one you use in heavy needs it more……… jim