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Roger T
11-13-2015, 11:23 PM
Is there a "best" preload on primers ? Currently when seated I have .002 crush using Wolf LR .128 fresh from box .126 seated, pockets are .128 deep.

Wilbur
11-14-2015, 12:11 AM
No, there's no better way to seat primers. Just seat them metal to metal and that's the best you can do.

CMaier
11-14-2015, 02:49 AM
I hate to disagree with wilbur, but the .002 crush after bottoming out
has been mentioned several times. I think it came from a mil spec somewhere in the past.

ebb
11-14-2015, 07:58 AM
Mil spec is the highest standard for loading benchrest ammo?

Boyd Allen
11-14-2015, 09:45 AM
Everyone that I am aware of in this sport seats primers by feel, not by depth, most using hand tools. On the other hand, when setting up automatic machinery, one would have to have some sort of specification. Everyone who shoots factory ammo in competition please hold up his or her hand. Next question ;-)

Wilbur
11-14-2015, 10:33 AM
No problem with the disagreement..I don't know much about Mil Specs but I'm pretty sure .002 is ok too. Not better but OK too.

CMaier
11-14-2015, 10:46 AM
No,
but lacking input from primer makers, input from a large user of primers might bear some consideration.


Mil spec is the highest standard for loading benchrest ammo?

David Halblom
11-14-2015, 05:58 PM
Mil spec is the highest standard for loading benchrest ammo?

described the ultimate of "lowest common denominator". Mil-Spec is nothing more than the minimum the Military will accept in their attempt to make sure they lose less soldiers than their enemy.

CMaier
11-14-2015, 07:05 PM
ebb and David,
Can you provide a primer makers installation instructions ??
WHILE WHINNING ABOUT MILSPEC AMMO, neither have provided any positive input to the questiom.

Gene Beggs
11-14-2015, 07:18 PM
Winter must be upon us. :(

cdupuy
11-14-2015, 09:53 PM
Is there a "best" preload on primers ? Currently when seated I have .002 crush using Wolf LR .128 fresh from box .126 seated, pockets are .128 deep.

I shot the (Russian) primers for ten years in the 308 Palma Game, the Russian primers are larger in diameter that US made. The Russian primer must be sensitized after hitting the bottom to instill a bit of crush to the primer or the SD's of the load will suffer. The .002 you mention may be a little on the light side, I will test it and report.

Bart
11-15-2015, 07:17 PM
Wilbur is correct. Just seat the primer until it touches the bottom and stop. That is if you are looking for Benchrest accuracy. Continuing to seat the primer once it bottoms out is detrimental to accuracy. John Gammuto wrote an article on the subject some years back and I have proven it with my own experience.

Im pretty familiar with "military specs". The military's primary concern is that a cartridge fires everytime. Some crush on the primer to make sure it's seated as far as it can go makes sense. It's not a standard to enhance accuracy, but reliability.

Bart Sauter

Bart's Bullets

Roger T
11-15-2015, 08:22 PM
Continuing to seat the primer once it bottoms out is detrimental to accuracy. John Gamuto wrote an article on the subject some years back and I have proven it with my own experience.



Bart Sauter

Bart's Bullets Is this due to cup/anvil deformation ? Is there a link or publication I can look at of this.?

ebb
11-15-2015, 08:29 PM
Mikes back

Bart
11-15-2015, 09:24 PM
Is this due to cup/anvil deformation ? Is there a link or publication I can look at of this.?

My guess would be that it's deforming something. However, I'm not much of a "why" guy, I go for results. My first shooting mentor Martin Menke, a German tool and die maker would tell me, " I don't know why it is, but it is." John's test tried various seating depths from not bottoming out to crush. Best results were from just feeling the primer touch the bottom of the cup. That's what I have found to work the best.

You can find the article in an old Shooters News.

Prove it to yourself and play with different seating depths yourself. I think you'll find the worse groups will be from primers that aren't touching the bottom, crushed will give erratic groups and just touching will be the best.


Bart

Wayne Shaw
11-16-2015, 06:18 AM
I have thought that for some time, Ebb. So, I just refuse to get into those conversations.

It takes me a while sometimes, but every response has a confrontational tone. I agree.

David Halblom
11-16-2015, 06:47 PM
My guess would be that it's deforming something. However, I'm not much of a "why" guy, I go for results. My first shooting mentor Martin Menke, a German tool and die maker would tell me, " I don't know why it is, but it is." John's test tried various seating depths from not bottoming out to crush. Best results were from just feeling the primer touch the bottom of the cup. That's what I have found to work the best.

You can find the article in an old Shooters News.

Prove it to yourself and play with different seating depths yourself. I think you'll find the worse groups will be from primers that aren't touching the bottom, crushed will give erratic groups and just touching will be the best.


Bart

for clarifying that. I figured there was some kind of logic to the Mil Spec. Thanks

David

ebb
11-16-2015, 09:38 PM
I sure cant remember where I read it, but I read that any thing over touching can break the priming compound and alter the intensity of the flame. FBecigneul if you had informed me I could have refrained also. Don't keep these things to your self!

Wilbur
11-17-2015, 07:01 AM
Is this due to cup/anvil deformation ? Is there a link or publication I can look at of this.?

But...you just read the gospel....right here. Why would you go anywhere else to read anything about accuracy.

James M.
11-17-2015, 07:59 AM
+1 to what Wilbur said. If you seek information and a shooter that holds world records and is in the Benchrest Hall of Fame takes the time to give you the information about his method of seating primers........... why would you ask for more? Good shooting...James

sdean
11-17-2015, 08:03 AM
+2

Dave Coots
11-17-2015, 10:08 AM
My Grandpa was from Missouri, the Show Me State. He came to Iowa in a boxcar with his mules and farm equipment. Just Show Me a successful shooter such as Bart, and I will probably learn more from him than what I may learn from reading a book, a person with several tons of posts on BR Central, someone with an engineering degree, or someone with a theory.

Most generally it is hard to listen when you are talking.

Later
Dave

brickeyee
11-17-2015, 06:51 PM
If you use an RCBS straight arm 'bench primer' you can feel the primer slide in, the protruding anvil touch the case, and the slight movement of forcing the anvil legs flush with the primer cup.

It is harder to feel with the mechanical advantage and friction of 'hand primers' using a 'cam' type surfaces.

The 'hand primers' can be improved by polishing the friction surfaces and putting some molly past on them.

Dusty Stevens
11-18-2015, 08:41 AM
If you use an RCBS straight arm 'bench primer' you can feel the primer slide in, the protruding anvil touch the case, and the slight movement of forcing the anvil legs flush with the primer cup.

It is harder to feel with the mechanical advantage and friction of 'hand primers' using a 'cam' type surfaces.

The 'hand primers' can be improved by polishing the friction surfaces and putting some molly past on them.

Ive never seen anything rcbs at a match- maybe a handle for a neck brush. Probably due to portability. With a custom priming tool you can feel it all- k&m, sinclair, 21st century and the old 2 handle bald eagle are what br shooters use. With any of those you could feel a scratch in the pocket, carbon on the bottom and exactly when the anvil touches. The other tools just wont do it

glp
11-18-2015, 02:10 PM
hand primer, for feel and durability, I have ever owned is the K&M. I use one loading 30BR Lapua cases and Fed primers and can feel the primer into the pocket and feel it touch bottom. It's a great unit...and adheres to the kiss principle. JMO.

Roger T
11-19-2015, 12:38 AM
But...you just read the gospel....right here. Why would you go anywhere else to read anything about accuracy. I'm not doubting Bart in the least. It was his mention of the article by John Gammuto that I thought would be a good read.

jim1K
11-19-2015, 07:01 AM
The Question he ask was about WOLF large rifle primers, Not about Fed or what ever. I did fool with this 4-5 years ago and yes you need a little more than touching due to the click bang issue they have. As for the diameter being larger i found that to be false with the lots i had. I never found them to out shoot or be more consistent than the CCI 450's and BR4's in the small primers and they do not do as well as LR Federal GM's…….. Jim O'Hara

Bart
11-19-2015, 07:56 AM
The Question he ask was about WOLF large rifle primers, Not about Fed or what ever. I did fool with this 4-5 years ago and yes you need a little more than touching due to the click bang issue they have. As for the diameter being larger i found that to be false with the lots i had. I never found them to out shoot or be more consistent than the CCI 450's and BR4's in the small primers and they do not do as well as LR Federal GM's…….. Jim O'Hara

Jim,

Not the way I read it! He asked about preloading primers in general. Then went on to say he is currently using wolf primers.

Tell me more about the click bang issue. Nearly sounds like the primer wasn't bottomed out to begin with.

Bart

Wilbur
11-19-2015, 08:46 AM
If y'all will allow....seating primers is small talk as long as you seat then to the bottom. I don't actually know if seating them above or below just touching makes a difference as I always seated them just touching - as best I could. I did OK with that. We're at the mercy of primer makers anyhow but when is the last time you heard somebody say they lost because they seated their primers wrong?

I won a match once...the whole match I believe...with primers falling out of the cases if I wasn't careful. I just loaded a round, looked to see if it had a primer and closed the bolt.

jim1K
11-19-2015, 12:13 PM
Jim,

Not the way I read it! He asked about preloading primers in general. Then went on to say he is currently using wolf primers.

Tell me more about the click bang issue. Nearly sounds like the primer wasn't bottomed out to begin with.

Bart




Bart, i don't think them not seated to the bottom was the problem, i could feel them touch in uniformed primer pockets. A delay in ignition was there due to very hard cup (for slam fires) and or the different mix the Russian primers use. They shot OK but not good enough for me to live with the click bang issue.Tried them in the 6.5x47 and the Dasher and Large rifle in my 7mm08. Maybe they changed them from when i had them, but i don't plan to find out….. jim

James M.
11-19-2015, 12:45 PM
I tried the Wolf SR in both the Dasher and .30BR and had to quit because of the Click-bang syndrome. They just did not have the Umph for these two cartridges. Fed. 205's work very well as does the 450 CCI. Good shooting...James

Bart
11-19-2015, 01:39 PM
Wilbur you have always been a renegade! From shooting free recoil and then hanging on to the gun, pinching bullet noses with pliers and shooting them! Now shooting with primers falling out! I also remember a lot of "dark art" practices such as, looking at people's targets and wishing shots out, and the illegal use of three leaf clovers for jinxing shooters!

Bart

Bart
11-19-2015, 01:40 PM
Bart, i don't think them not seated to the bottom was the problem, i could feel them touch in uniformed primer pockets. A delay in ignition was there due to very hard cup (for slam fires) and or the different mix the Russian primers use. They shot OK but not good enough for me to live with the click bang issue.Tried them in the 6.5x47 and the Dasher and Large rifle in my 7mm08. Maybe they changed them from when i had them, but i don't plan to find out….. jim

Thanks Jim! That doesn't sound like the way to go!

Bart

Wilbur
11-23-2015, 06:02 AM
Wilbur you have always been a renegade! From shooting free recoil and then hanging on to the gun, pinching bullet noses with pliers and shooting them! Now shooting with primers falling out! I also remember a lot of "dark art" practices such as, looking at people's targets and wishing shots out, and the illegal use of three leaf clovers for jinxing shooters!

Bart

Bill Saxton and I developed a method where one of us would stare at the target while the other would close his eyes and wish. Worked pretty good (really, it did) but Ed Watson broke us from that practice. Not only could we not "wish" Ed's shot out...we had terrible groups ourselves. Pretty sure we gave that up quickly as we couldn't tell who had the biggest medicine. I will tell you that Wayne Campbell was the easiest of all.....but watch out for bigger medicine.

I didn't think anybody knew about those clovers.....!!