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Lee Martin
10-21-2015, 02:05 PM
I first shot a purpose built BR rifle in 1986. After 29 years of dabbling I finally got into the zeros. Plenty of low 1's over that time but never a screamer. That changed this past Saturday:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_1B_zpsboogh6ce.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_1B_zpsboogh6ce.jpg.html)

Crude measuring at the range:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_2_zps0ieuw327.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_2_zps0ieuw327.jpg.html)

Measuring under magnification. Dad and I both put the widest span at 0.326" (or 0.083")

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_3_zpssqznh45f.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_3_zpssqznh45f.jpg.html)

Of course it isn't official and it's only one group. Nonetheless it was rewarding. Load specifics:

• 28.1 grs of LT-32 (150.5 Culver)
• Velocity – haven’t chronographed it yet but I’d guess 3,300 fps
• 68 grain FB Bart’s Ultra just touching the lands.
• Brass – Lapua, turned 0.0095"
• 0.0015” neck tension – 0.261” bushing
• CCI BR-4 primer
• Shoulder bump = 0.001”
• Loaded neck = 0.2625” on a 0.264” chamber. 0.0015” clearance
• Average wind = 0.8 mph during the five minutes it took to complete
• Temp = 50.3, Humidity – 48.4
• Free recoil

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Hunter
10-21-2015, 02:14 PM
CONGRATULATIONS -- I guess that shooting shed is already paying off. :)

Dusty Stevens
10-21-2015, 02:33 PM
Great job! Keep it up.

r44astro
10-21-2015, 04:46 PM
It is more fun at a registered match or SS. Plus someone else measures.
Bill

Lee Martin
10-21-2015, 05:55 PM
It is more fun at a registered match or SS. Plus someone else measures.
Bill

Yep.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Wayne Shaw
10-21-2015, 05:59 PM
Lee, your BR or PPC?

Lee Martin
10-21-2015, 06:22 PM
Wayne...it was the PPC.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Dan H
10-21-2015, 08:27 PM
I first shot a purpose built BR rifle in 1986. After 29 years of dabbling I finally got into the zeros. Plenty of low 1's over that time but never a screamer. That changed this past Saturday:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_1B_zpsboogh6ce.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_1B_zpsboogh6ce.jpg.html)

Crude measuring at the range:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_2_zps0ieuw327.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_2_zps0ieuw327.jpg.html)

Measuring under magnification. Dad and I both put the widest span at 0.326" (or 0.083")

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_3_zpssqznh45f.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_3_zpssqznh45f.jpg.html)

Of course it isn't official and it's only one group. Nonetheless it was rewarding. Load specifics:

• 28.1 grs of LT-32 (150.5 Culver)
• Velocity – haven’t chronographed it yet but I’d guess 3,300 fps
• 68 grain FB Bart’s Ultra just touching the lands.
• Brass – Lapua, turned 0.0095"
• 0.0015” neck tension – 0.261” bushing
• CCI BR-4 primer
• Shoulder bump = 0.001”
• Loaded neck = 0.2625” on a 0.264” chamber. 0.0015” clearance
• Average wind = 0.8 mph during the five minutes it took to complete
• Temp = 50.3, Humidity – 48.4
• Free recoil

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Very nice group Lee

Dan Honert

Bart
10-21-2015, 08:56 PM
Great Group Lee!

Bart

caroby
10-21-2015, 10:38 PM
Lee... How many on the sighter..?

That's a TINY hole.

Lee Martin
10-22-2015, 09:28 AM
Lee... How many on the sighter..?

That's a TINY hole.

Just one on the sighter.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

James M.
10-22-2015, 09:48 AM
Lee, I am saying here (with danger of being labeled an obnoxious person) what many shooters are thinking about your group. That is, in my opinion, it is not a "zero" group. Look at the group that I shot in the SS last May and guess what it measures and how it compares to yours. I hope this does not come off as some type of attack on your shooting ability and keep up the good shooting and your "zeroes" will materialize in competition. Good shooting....James Mock

PS- my group was also shot with Bart's bullets (68gr BT) and I used a BAT/Leonard with 13.75 twist Bartlein barrel and Valdada 36X scope. My load was 30.1 gr. of '09 N133 and Fed 205 primer. The bullets were ~.008 off jam. For the record, my group was a 0.121 as measured by George Kelbly, Jr., who has plenty of experience measuring groups.

Wilbur
10-22-2015, 03:04 PM
Pretty good group there Mr. Martin!

Hunter
10-22-2015, 03:19 PM
Lee, I am saying here (with danger of being labeled an obnoxious person) what many shooters are thinking about your group. That is, in my opinion, it is not a "zero" group. Look at the group that I shot in the SS last May and guess what it measures and how it compares to yours....

For the record, my group was a 0.121 as measured by George Kelbly, Jr., who has plenty of experience measuring groups.

Could it be that your calipers are not set at the widest point of your group and that George Jr wasn't using such a large magnifier?

Lee Martin
10-22-2015, 03:59 PM
Lee, I am saying here (with danger of being labeled an obnoxious person) what many shooters are thinking about your group. That is, in my opinion, it is not a "zero" group.

Not obnoxious at all. In fact, when I pulled it from the backer I figured it was in the 1's. I mean, it isn't the prettiest of groups. But dad and I measured the thing from every angle and the widest point is 0.326" - 0.328" (dad sees 0.326", I get 0.328"). Here's another close-up:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_4_zpsowyxoewq.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Benchrest/BR%20Target%201-101715_4_zpsowyxoewq.jpg.html)

The 12:00 to 6:00 portion isn't as close to 0.328" as you'd think. Both of us pegged that span at 0.319". And each time we're measuring a hair beyond the black.

Regardless, it doesn't really matter much: 1) it wasn't shot in competition so it isn't official, and 2) it wasn't scored with the proper instrumentation. Zero or no zero, I'll write it off as a good cluster.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Wilbur
10-22-2015, 04:01 PM
Lee, I'm sure you know this, but measure the sighter hole, measure the group, and subtract what the sighter hole measured. As far as I'm concerned, if you say it's a zero....it's a zero.

skeetlee
10-22-2015, 05:30 PM
Dam fine group, that at least is for sure!!!
Nothing much better than tooling up, and spending precious time working on a barrel chamber, and then have the reward of little bitty groups down range!! Im sure as handy as you and your father are, the barrel work was done in house?? Good on you my friend!! Lee

Lee Martin
10-22-2015, 05:59 PM
Lee - yes, it was done all in-house to include the action:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Benchrest/Benchrest%20Action%20647_zpsluz37lrv.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Benchrest/Benchrest%20Action%20647_zpsluz37lrv.jpg.html)

The gun is showing promise but the guy touching the trigger has a lot to learn (especially on the flags). I'm having fun with it though and look forward to competing in the near future.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

James M.
10-22-2015, 06:40 PM
Hunter, I am not doubting George's measurement. I knew mine was not a zero, but I set the calipers the same as Lee had his set in the picture. A zero group does not have any wings like mine and Mr. Martin's do. It is a fine group and so is mine...but neither are "zeroes". James

dogdude
10-24-2015, 05:41 PM
That's a very Serious looking set up, I'll bet you'll be shooting plenty of groups like the one posted. dogdude

caroby
10-24-2015, 11:16 PM
That's a very Serious looking set up, I'll bet you'll be shooting plenty of groups like the one posted. dogdude

Agree with dogdude...

Lee, you'll .....................Eventually Shoot a SCREAMER(s) that'll have near BULLET hole appearance. That will very well
look like that sighter HOLE...

Going for that 5th shot for a screamer is...... Well, nerve wrecking...! Even in a tunnel..

cale

Dick Grosbier
10-25-2015, 07:30 AM
It's too bad you waited so long to shoot a screamer.
Precision Shooting Mag. used to award a patch to screamer shooters.

That had to be done at a registered match anyhow, as I recall. The program is still alive for IBS Shooters in registered Group, Score, 600, & 1000yd. matches. See http://internationalbenchrest.com/join/screamertext.php

Tim Singleton
10-25-2015, 09:45 AM
Screamer patch is still alive with the nbrsa. If you shoot under a .099 or smaller at 100yd
Or .199 or smaller at 200 yd. at a registered match
There is a link on the nbrsa web site to request your patch.
I've no idea what the process is for long range


https://nbrsa.org/sites/default/files/Screamer%20Patch%20Specifications.pdf

Boyd Allen
10-25-2015, 09:59 AM
Tim,
At 200 it is below .250. A while back I put in for an official screamer patch for a friend. He is a relatively new shooter, and it really made his day.
Boyd

Hunter
10-25-2015, 10:25 AM
A while back I put in for an official screamer patch for a friend.

Why did you need to do that?

bluechip
10-25-2015, 11:22 AM
I hope I don't come off as naοve, but as a person who has never actually attended a benchrest match, do they still use paper for targets? It would seem that a plastic of some sort with a clear cut boundary would make measuring much more precise. I work in a machine shop and use an optical comparator daily and I wouldn't be able to get the same measurement twice on the 'screamer' target group by the OP.

Boyd Allen
10-25-2015, 01:25 PM
Generally, the methods for measurement and the target materials are adequate for the purpose for which they are used. Perhaps you might want to look into how targets are measured at matches. Are there any matches in your area?

bluechip
10-25-2015, 04:10 PM
Generally, the methods for measurement and the target materials are adequate for the purpose for which they are used. Perhaps you might want to look into how targets are measured at matches. Are there any matches in your area?

I'm only 15 or 20 miles from the range at Holton MI. It would seem when one shooter has a group of say .079 and another has a group of .077 it would be very difficult to get an accurate reading with such vague boundaries. I realize the judges have a lot of experience, but it would surprise me if three different judges came up with the same number.

Hunter
10-25-2015, 07:17 PM
I realize the judges have a lot of experience, but it would surprise me if three different judges came up with the same number.

I frequently say the scores are not as precise as the measurements suggest. It reminds me of the "fuss" over first downs in football -- spot the ball in "any old place" then bring out the precise measuring chain.

Wilbur
10-26-2015, 02:22 PM
Well...they don't come up with the same number and the measurements may be off quite a bit. The deal is that the measurements are consistent and that a smaller measurement is a smaller group. There have been some differences along the way but not many and nowhere near enough to change the way it's done.

Mike Bryant
10-27-2015, 09:21 PM
That's why all the targets at a match are measured by the same person. It can make a pretty tough day especially at a Nationals for the measurer. You see quite often at a match that targets will be measured smaller than they actually measure. It's usually done by placing the edge of the scoring reticle on the edge of the bullet hole and moving the other edge of the reticle to the widest edge. The scoring reticle has to be centered over the bullet hole which makes it an inexact science. You can check this by placing the scoring reticle over a single bullet hole such as on the sighter target and seeing how the reticle centers on the bullet hole. It won't be edge to edge. FWIW, I'll do just like Lee when I'm measuring my targets at home, measure edge to edge and subtract the bullet diameter. Except that I'll use the edge to edge measurement of a single bullet hole as the bullet diameter instead of using .243". Usually about .236" or so. Not completely accurate, but it's close enough for home. I've only measured at one registered match, so I'm hardly an expert on measuring groups. Measuring at a match does give you an understanding of what can go wrong when measuring. For instance, not closing the caliper from measuring one group to the next. The reticle on an official measure is a bullet diameter reticle etched in plexiglass attached to the caliper. You can have the caliper jaws opened up to say .250, lay the reticle on the bullet hole and move the reticle to widest bullet hole and add that .250" to your group size by not having the calipers closed to zero. That's the kind of thing I look for at a match when looking at how my targets are measured. The obvious errors. If you see something like that at a match, have a referee take it back and have it remeasured.

Lee don't know whether you have had a range at home before or not. But, it will certainly go a long way to improving your shooting and your placing at matches. When you can walk out the back door and be ready to shoot, it makes a difference as to having to drive somewhere to do it. You'll shoot more at home because of the easy access.

Good shooting.

Mike

Hunter
10-28-2015, 09:42 AM
[W]hat can go wrong when measuring. For instance, not closing the caliper from measuring one group to the next....You can have the caliper jaws opened up to say .250, lay the reticle on the bullet hole and move the reticle to widest bullet hole and add that .250" to your group size by not having the calipers closed to zero.

Yep, been there done that. :)

Chism G
10-28-2015, 12:01 PM
A Machinist with a private range in his/her backyard has a distinct competitive advantage.


I've said it before and I will say it again.





Glenn