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Pete Wass
08-27-2015, 11:41 AM
There is a thread on another site discussing scoring. While there is nothing to date perfect, I believe a plug is the best device, providing the bullet hole isn't macerated beyond having a hole to use. There are reticles being used out there that some swear by but the problem with them is we are all expected to participate in scoring. There is no training for scoring that I am aware of and the old "common sense" rule is offered up. Scoring and common sense have no relevance to each other.

With a reticle, it is left up to the scorer or , in some cases, a referee to center the circle around the center of the bullet hole. From my experience, this often does not happen. People judge the bullet hole's relationship to the circle differently. I have thought for a long time that a plug is easier to use and with the good paper we seem to have in the target cards now, a better, fairer way to score.

The IR 50/50 plug has a built in magnifier and is constructed in such a way that once it is inserted in the bullet hole it centers up and IF the person scoring looks straight down, the truth is told. The problem I see with the use of any of the measuring equipment is a standardized , written procedure for using the device not available. I believe people scoring should have to qualify to do so. Our scores are the only thing we shooters get from these games, for the most part. There are not many "Money" matches.

Let the flames be turned up. :)

Pete

AndyTaber
08-27-2015, 03:00 PM
Pete, I have to agree with you as I prefer the plug type as well. I have one I use for 22 rimfire, but nothing is available any longer for other calibers. The last time this discussion came up it was noted that the previous manufacturer held the patent on the plug/magnifiers and wasn't interested in licensing it to anyone else.

jackie schmidt
08-27-2015, 11:41 PM
I prefer the reticle.

Wayne Shaw
08-28-2015, 07:55 AM
Using a plug is fraught with problems that cause inaccurate scores. I have a full set of plugs and if I'm not mistaken, the 30 caliber plug measures bigger than .308" for some reason. Then there is the paper, the backing of the paper, the use of the plug by the scorer placing it in the paper, referees dicking with the plug while it's placed in the hole, the paper being "turned down" in the hole pushing the plug in and trying to imagine where it would be if the paper were flat. Not to mention if the paper is wet from rain.

A reticle is simple, the paper is laid flat, the ring is centered, and it's position to the ring/dot is determined. Much less room for error. There is always the element of interpretation regardless of which method, but the reticle is by far more accurate, whether it's used for score or group.

Pete Wass
08-28-2015, 09:33 AM
Using a plug is fraught with problems that cause inaccurate scores. I have a full set of plugs and if I'm not mistaken, the 30 caliber plug measures bigger than .308" for some reason. Then there is the paper, the backing of the paper, the use of the plug by the scorer placing it in the paper, referees dicking with the plug while it's placed in the hole, the paper being "turned down" in the hole pushing the plug in and trying to imagine where it would be if the paper were flat. Not to mention if the paper is wet from rain.

A reticle is simple, the paper is laid flat, the ring is centered, and it's position to the ring/dot is determined. Much less room for error. There is always the element of interpretation regardless of which method, but the reticle is by far more accurate, whether it's used for score or group.

during my years when using the reticle. I find it way too subjective as to where the circle is centered. What you point out without saying so is there are no established directions for scoring, there should be and folks trained to score. Paper has gotten a lot better over the past few years so that most of the holes I have seen in quite a while are solidly round. I think once paper is wet, the true hole is lost anyway, just the breaks of the game. I remain believing that a plug in a hole is a lot less subjective than a movable circle. It would be pretty tough to com up with a plug to score groups, eh?
Pete

steve stanley
08-28-2015, 10:59 AM
I prefer the reticule, if used properly it is more accurate than the plug because it doesn't follow tears like a plug and you can score a wet target more accurately. Either can be subjective to the scorer's use and if you don't agree protest it to the referees. I've seen bad calls with the plug also when I've been a ref and I've seen other ref's not looking straight down on the plug. I f you don't look straight down on the plug you will see white almost everytime where the plug pushes the paper down.The reticule appears to be more idiot proof to me, but that's just my opinion.

Greyfox
08-28-2015, 11:19 AM
I prefer the reticule, if used properly it is more accurate than the plug because it doesn't follow tears like a plug and you can score a wet target more accurately. Either can be subjective to the scorer's use and if you don't agree protest it to the referees. I've seen bad calls with the plug also when I've been a ref and I've seen other ref's not looking straight down on the plug. I f you don't look straight down on the plug you will see white almost everytime where the plug pushes the paper down.The reticule appears to be more idiot proof to me, but that's just my opinion.

I agree with Wayne & Steve. IME the plug is much more subject to mistakes and misreading. As far as training, I don't know who would do it or the expense/travel involved. Again IME it isn't that tough to teach people to score. When there are two or three capable referees most shooters are satisfied that the score is fair. Of course there are always a few who just won't agree no matter what. Sometimes the shooter just can't accept reality and I'll admit to being on the wrong side of that myself a time or two.

Rick

Pete Wass
08-28-2015, 02:09 PM
there aren't a lot of bad calls. I thin it would be quite easy to train/ test folks as far as scoring is concerned. Send em 10 targets to score and see what one gets back for answers.

Pete

tim
08-28-2015, 03:10 PM
Everything has some issue. The plug is subject to misalignment, some would argue manipulation, and holes do not get any better with more than one plug. Over the years, I cannot count how many look at it off to the side.
A good reticle works the same way a reciever sight works, the eye naturally centers it on the true hole.
That said the primary score targets we participate in are IR50/50 which allows a protest with a 3 ref re-score which is very fair to all involved. Even then, there are some shots that are so close, they get protested, simply because you may catch a break when the plug goes in a second time........what does that tell you?

mwezell
08-28-2015, 04:45 PM
I lean on the side of the reticle, but do think that uniform lighting, such as a light box, would help. That etched ring seems to gather light in full sun and appear bigger at times. I've scored a bunch of targets both ways and agree that neither is perfect but I think there is less down side to the reticle. Ideally, it'd be nice if it could all be done electronically, IMO, but it's not very feasible everywhere or with different targets.

Bill Wynne
08-28-2015, 10:42 PM
I have scored for ARA, 50/50, and ABRA with two different kinds of plugs with no problem. I am sure that I could use a reticle as well. It would be a waist of time to try to tell me or most scorers how to score. I would gladly let someone else do it and I could go shoot the bull with my friends.

I have seen many close calls but I have never seen one that could not be clearly determined. I am more worried about mathematical mistakes.

Anyway, It is just a game that we enjoy.

Bill

Daryl
08-29-2015, 07:11 PM
Peter,

I agree with you totally. Even more, on the centerfire side of the house. It would so easy to have a plug reticle with 6mm plug and 30 cal ring. That would allow the scoring between the calibers to even out. This would be the more sportsman and gentleman thing to do. There is a group of fine gentleman and sportsman that shoot for the pleasure of shooting. I am one of those and so are you. Unfortunately we have element that is just in shooting for the score and will use every advantage to munipulate that score. Including having scoring advantages including controlling scorers, refs and rules.


Daryl

tim
08-29-2015, 07:48 PM
Scoring to even out??? What, exactly is that supposed to mean?

Steelhead1
08-29-2015, 09:42 PM
Well, to clear one thing up here is that there are plugs available for different centerfire calibres, not just rimfire. I taught my wife how to score at the beginning of the season, she gravitates towards using the plugs and we have.30, 6mm, 6.5mm .22 we also have the optical scoring device but for reasons stated above she thinks that is more difficult to get it lined up to her liking! Now here is where the common sense comes in, as long as the same scorer is doing everything consistently the same, to every target then there are very few problems, I taught her to always look straight down on the plug and any hole that she puts the plug in she puts a P next to the score to let the shooter know that it has been looked at closely! The person doing the scoring has to be consistent, and if there are any protests the referee's can resolve it via the plug or the optical scoring device. The last argument is usually spoken of but I donT think it as valid as everyone thinks it is, that is that once a plug is inserted it enlarges the hole to the point that if later the optical scoring device is used it may give the shooter a point he didn actually earn! The bottom line is if it is done the same way everytime by the scorer then there should not be but a very few questionable calls!

jackie schmidt
08-30-2015, 12:10 AM
Think how all this would be a moot point if we all just shot 25 wipeouts.:eek:

Steelhead1
08-30-2015, 01:06 AM
Jackie
I love your thinking, can you offer up any hints to help me acheive that score! I understand your pretty good at this game!

Pete Wass
09-01-2015, 03:03 PM
about the subjective nature of centering the bullet hole, on the Texas Rimfire site. There is a discussion about this very issue. A contributor posted a picture of a shot and superimposed two red circles over it, one .218 and the other .224. If one looks at how that person placed the circles, one can easily see that the circles are not centered over the bullet hole. The person instead used the splatter from the torn paper or backer as a reference.

At least it's clear to me that we are scoring bullet holes; where bullets actually go through the paper, not the macerated aftermath, and here in lies the problem. There needs to be instructions set fourth that describes how bullet holes are to be viewed and how the circle or circles are to be positioned over the bullet hole. I am surprised more people aren't concerned. All a shooter gets from this game, most of the time, are their scores. The scores matter, over the long run. I think there is the assumption that everyone is going to place the circle in the same place but I am quite sure that is not the case at all.

Pete

Hunter
09-01-2015, 06:15 PM
on the Texas Rimfire site. There is a discussion about this very issue.

Link, please. :)

CMaier
09-01-2015, 06:42 PM
From an outsider looking in,
anything that disturbs the hole in the paper,
makes repeating the measurement questionable.
so no plugs.....

Bill Wynne
09-01-2015, 07:55 PM
We score the very best that we can regardless of the score or the person. It is not perfect but we all try.

Bagger Vance from the movie on golf, "It is a game to be played not won."

Surely this also applies to bench rest.

Bill

Wilbur
09-02-2015, 01:39 AM
I went to a rimfire match once upon a time and was chosen as a referee. There was a pretty good shot in attendance but he clearly thought the scorer and referees were against him ("morons" I think he said). Turns out he was right (not about the referees being morons - just me)! I went home and looked through the rules and found nothing that addressed a smartass...but I did find some stuff on scoring and it wasn't done in the best interest of the competitor. The competitor was later banned from all matches in the area...should have done that earlier instead of scoring his targets incorrectly.

There was a fellow at a centerfire match that protested a lot of targets. He protested a target that was quite a bit off and rather than the referees correcting the mistake, they scored the group larger....because they said the fellow protested too many targets.

Both occurrences were within the rules. Said differently, no rule was broken. On one hand I understand, on the other hand I don't understand at all.

As for the best method of scoring...there's not one.

B.Larson
09-02-2015, 08:07 AM
from an outsider looking in,
anything that disturbs the hole in the paper,
makes repeating the measurement questionable.
So no plugs.....

very sensible ..... I agree...........

Hunter
09-02-2015, 09:26 AM
Hey, your friend and referee, Buddy Ross, weighed my 9 pound 7 ounce rifle four times one morning at the Shamrock in Dublin.

He was probably waiting for more pollen to fall on it. :)

Greyfox
09-02-2015, 10:08 AM
I don't recall all the scoring rules for IBS and NBRSA, but several years ago I attended an IBS state match and was asked to be a referee. It was the only match I have attended where you were required to put up $$ to protest a score. As it went, I was asked to protest scores at least three times and the official scorer didn't appreciate being questioned. Turned our he was clearly wrong in every instance. I don't think he ever asked for any referees to check his scores. I can say that at UBR matches we use a scorer and two referees. I frequently do the scoring and I do ask for a second and third opinion now and then. Also, I have been proven wrong more than once. I understand some of the concerns that have been expressed, but I seriously doubt that three scorers will make the same mistake. As has been said, when using the plug, every time you put it in again, the hole is subject to get pushed around and I much prefer the reticle. But either way, I don't think I've ever run across intentional errors and unfair scoring, just differences of opinion and when that's the case two out of three usually get it right. A few months back I was the "victim" in one of these cases. I was really upset and thought I had been screwed......until I got home with the targets and looked closer. There were two in question and the scorer and referees were right and I was wrong.

Rick

glp
09-02-2015, 11:57 AM
He was probably waiting for more pollen to fall on it. :)

he wanted to see how much the cobwebs weighed.

mwezell
09-02-2015, 12:10 PM
I don't recall all the scoring rules for IBS and NBRSA, but several years ago I attended an IBS state match and was asked to be a referee. It was the only match I have attended where you were required to put up $$ to protest a score. As it went, I was asked to protest scores at least three times and the official scorer didn't appreciate being questioned. Turned our he was clearly wrong in every instance. I don't think he ever asked for any referees to check his scores. I can say that at UBR matches we use a scorer and two referees. I frequently do the scoring and I do ask for a second and third opinion now and then. Also, I have been proven wrong more than once. I understand some of the concerns that have been expressed, but I seriously doubt that three scorers will make the same mistake. As has been said, when using the plug, every time you put it in again, the hole is subject to get pushed around and I much prefer the reticle. But either way, I don't think I've ever run across intentional errors and unfair scoring, just differences of opinion and when that's the case two out of three usually get it right. A few months back I was the "victim" in one of these cases. I was really upset and thought I had been screwed......until I got home with the targets and looked closer. There were two in question and the scorer and referees were right and I was wrong.

Rick
I'm sure you didn't and don't believe that I or the other refs would intentionally screw you or anyone else, Rick...at least I hope not. Difference of opinion, being correct or incorrect..and being wronged aren't the same thing. I've never shot where I felt like any scorer would intentionally beat anyone out of anything...and won't but once, if I ever do. That's what the refs are for...to give a 2 out of three judgement on any shot that is close enough to where opinion or judgement may be in question..but hopefully not integrity.
Yes, there are times when it comes down to the judgement of the scorer and refs, but its that way with plugs and with reticles. Neither are perfect 100% of the time. As I said before, electronic scoring, without protests, would be my ideal choice for a scoring method, but it's not always feasible...although, it is done in some rimfire matches, but with protests allowed. Personally, I feel like the protests should be eliminated where electronic scoring is done. Right or wrong, the computer is completely unbiased. Disagreeing with what it says would be like arguing with a fence post and IMHO, invalidates the non-subjectivity of electronic scoring if a plug, particularly, is allowed into the hole after the scanned target is scored electronically. That's JMO and I'm sure that some will disagree with that. I know that protests have been won when electronic scoring has been used. My point is that with it, I think we should accept it for better or worse, and that allowing the human element into computerized scoring only allows for another variable in scoring.

Dick Grosbier
09-02-2015, 03:34 PM
I don't recall all the scoring rules for IBS and NBRSA, but several years ago I attended an IBS state match and was asked to be a referee. It was the only match I have attended where you were required to put up $$ to protest a score.

Apparently that is the only club you visited that was following the rules. I personally do not like this rule, but it is the rule nevertheless.

Below is an excerpt from the Tournament Procedures section of the IBS rulebook

"J) Protests and Appeals
1) A fee of $10.00 shall be in place for any target to be rescored or remeasured. If the target changes score the fee shall be returned to the shooter-otherwise the fee shall be forfeited to the Club holding the match. In group shooting, the group size shall have to change .020 inch or more (smaller or larger) to be considered a change."

Dick

Greyfox
09-02-2015, 03:44 PM
I'm sure you didn't and don't believe that I or the other refs would intentionally screw you or anyone else, Rick...at least I hope not. Difference of opinion, being correct or incorrect..and being wronged aren't the same thing. I've never shot where I felt like any scorer would intentionally beat anyone out of anything...and won't but once, if I ever do. That's what the refs are for...to give a 2 out of three judgement on any shot that is close enough to where opinion or judgement may be in question..but hopefully not integrity.
Yes, there are times when it comes down to the judgement of the scorer and refs, but its that way with plugs and with reticles. Neither are perfect 100% of the time. As I said before, electronic scoring, without protests, would be my ideal choice for a scoring method, but it's not always feasible...although, it is done in some rimfire matches, but with protests allowed. Personally, I feel like the protests should be eliminated where electronic scoring is done. Right or wrong, the computer is completely unbiased. Disagreeing with what it says would be like arguing with a fence post and IMHO, invalidates the non-subjectivity of electronic scoring if a plug, particularly, is allowed into the hole after the scanned target is scored electronically. That's JMO and I'm sure that some will disagree with that. I know that protests have been won when electronic scoring has been used. My point is that with it, I think we should accept it for better or worse, and that allowing the human element into computerized scoring only allows for another variable in scoring.

Mike,
If I gave the impression that I thought I was intentionally mis-scored, that was a mistake. I have never felt that my targets were mistakenly scored intentionally by anyone, even you :). My point is/was almost everybody is biased when looking at their own targets and conversely most of the scorers couldn't care less who belongs to which target. Mistakes are made and we should attempt to be as accurate as possible. Using referees goes a long way IMO. I've said I believe the reticle to be the best available scoring device, but I have not seen electronic scoring. If it is better I am all for it.

Rick

Greyfox
09-02-2015, 03:47 PM
Apparently that is the only club you visited that was following the rules. I personally do not like this rule, but it is the rule nevertheless.

Below is an excerpt from the Tournament Procedures section of the IBS rulebook

"J) Protests and Appeals
1) A fee of $10.00 shall be in place for any target to be rescored or remeasured. If the target changes score the fee shall be returned to the shooter-otherwise the fee shall be forfeited to the Club holding the match. In group shooting, the group size shall have to change .020 inch or more (smaller or larger) to be considered a change."

Dick

Which is yet another reason why I am no longer a member of IBS. Apparently, many, if not most clubs see this as a bad rule and don't impose it.

Rick

mwezell
09-02-2015, 04:05 PM
Mike,
If I gave the impression that I thought I was intentionally mis-scored, that was a mistake. I have never felt that my targets were mistakenly scored intentionally by anyone, even you :). My point is/was almost everybody is biased when looking at their own targets and conversely most of the scorers couldn't care less who belongs to which target. Mistakes are made and we should attempt to be as accurate as possible. Using referees goes a long way IMO. I've said I believe the reticle to be the best available scoring device, but I have not seen electronic scoring. If it is better I am all for it.

Rick

That's good! I never thought you did.
I do like the idea of electronic scoring, but it would require electricity and scanners large enough to handle the largest target to be scored. That would be a significant financial burden on some clubs, and electricity..is what it is.

That said, if I were to seriously advocate for a scoring change, it'd be for some sort of light box to score in or on. With LED bulbs, a 12 volt power supply could be used where electricity isn't an option..and they should be inexpensive to build. Obviously, the purpose would be consistent lighting. I'm not really advocating for any change, though. While plugs and reticles aren't perfect..they aren't broken, and a light box won't make them perfect either.

I'd just be happy to have time to shoot more!

CMaier
09-02-2015, 06:40 PM
I'd just be happy to have time to shoot more!

the problem with making good products...less shooting time

mwezell
09-02-2015, 06:52 PM
the problem with making good products...less shooting time

Thank you very much! I take that as a huge compliment. Truth is, I quit gunsmithing full time and started selling real estate. I am still making tuners, flags and my few little shooting accessories in my "free time". Problem is, I can't even remember what free time is.:confused:
..back to building flags.--Mike

CharlieH
09-04-2015, 06:22 PM
I'll give you an example of where the rule that charges a fee to protest a target would have been most appreciated.

I was a referee. One shooter protested a fellow competitors target, which prompted a reprisal protest, which begin a protest war between the two. I was trying to shoot, but it became so distracting I was done for the weekend, but it also impacted the whole tempo of the match effecting all the shooters. $10 a target would have stopped that in it's tracks.

B.Larson
09-04-2015, 06:39 PM
i'll give you an example of where the rule that charges a fee to protest a target would have been most appreciated.

I was a referee. One shooter protested a fellow competitors target, which prompted a reprisal protest, which begin a protest war between the two. I was trying to shoot, but it became so distracting i was done for the weekend, but it also impacted the whole tempo of the match effecting all the shooters. $10 a target would have stopped that in it's tracks.

aman +2

Greyfox
09-04-2015, 10:43 PM
I'll give you an example of where the rule that charges a fee to protest a target would have been most appreciated.

I was a referee. One shooter protested a fellow competitors target, which prompted a reprisal protest, which begin a protest war between the two. I was trying to shoot, but it became so distracting I was done for the weekend, but it also impacted the whole tempo of the match effecting all the shooters. $10 a target would have stopped that in it's tracks.

I can certainly see your point. But at the same time, I don't see having a rule that impacts everybody when you're trying to deal with a couple of a..holes that are acting like children. I think that had this happened at a match I was running I probably would have just asked the two to just leave. Fortunately, this has never come up. A few years back there was a discussion here about backers and crossfires. I said that in all the matches I had attended we never had a crossfire that wasn't admitted to by the offending party. I was told that in some areas it happens all the time and backers are needed to identify the shooter. I suppose that the folks in this area are just different in that respect.

Rick

mwezell
09-04-2015, 11:42 PM
I'll give you an example of where the rule that charges a fee to protest a target would have been most appreciated.

I was a referee. One shooter protested a fellow competitors target, which prompted a reprisal protest, which begin a protest war between the two. I was trying to shoot, but it became so distracting I was done for the weekend, but it also impacted the whole tempo of the match effecting all the shooters. $10 a target would have stopped that in it's tracks.

Group or score, and is the match director now following the protest rule for the respective sanctioning body?

I can see that type of thing happening much more so in group than score. First off, most shots in score are evident to its value. Other than an obvious mistake, I don't recall ever seeing a competitor's score target being protested by another competitor. In the event of an obvious scoring error, there is no point in a fee, as it clearly is won or lost. In cases where the shot is close, if it's marked R for having been reticled, and RR for reticled and reviewed by the refs, I'm satisfied that it's correctly scored and that I'm very unlikely to change the mind of the scorer and referees to see it my way.
Group, OTOH... virtually every group could be protested, and won..if the standard were for the scorer and refs to come to the same measurement, within .001" or so, each time it's measured....hence the .020" rule. Scoring would go on forever. In this regard, Pete's point is made about the imprecise method of scoring that is used, as is mine, for electronic scoring and no protests. JMHO.--Mike

Bill Gammon
09-05-2015, 08:54 AM
It can happen, I know, it happened to me. I was scoring the NBRSA Score Nationals at Holton and at the end of the match the competitors, in mass, got a whole group of referees and there was 6 cases of scoring protested. Well I was pretty confident, but there was 1 target changed, and it was obvious, I had missed it, no excuse, no reason, I had just missed it. So it can happen and that is why you have referees to follow up on this stuff.

Wilbur
09-05-2015, 02:56 PM
Paper tearing?
Quick Pete; delete this thread before SonOfAGun sees this thread.

That's a bit funny Francis!

Daryl
09-12-2015, 05:53 PM
You do not need to be a member of IBS to shoot in IBS Matches. Just go to the match fill out the form. Do not check or check the box that your a IBS member. They do not check to see if you are a member or not. Go shoot have good time. Watch IBS web site your scores will be posted and you will be list in Shooter of the Year status list. I have done it even was refe once when I was not a IBS member. If you want serious shooting, IBS is not the league.

Daryl

LHSmith
09-12-2015, 11:10 PM
You do not need to be a member of IBS to shoot in IBS Matches. Just go to the match fill out the form. Do not check or check the box that your a IBS member. They do not check to see if you are a member or not. Go shoot have good time. Watch IBS web site your scores will be posted and you will be list in Shooter of the Year status list. I have done it even was refe once when I was not a IBS member. If you want serious shooting, IBS is not the league.

Daryl

I believe you or your other brother Daryl, or whoever registered you better brush up on the rule book............and have a look-see at the record book of both organizations, particularly Score and Long Range before you expound on things you know little about.

Daryl
09-13-2015, 08:14 AM
I believe you or your other brother Daryl, or whoever registered you better brush up on the rule book............and have a look-see at the record book of both organizations, particularly Score and Long Range before you expound on things you know little about.

Before You Say Someone is Wrong You Need to Check the Records. Check Shooter Of Year Stats 2014. You will see me listed twice. I was NOT a IBS member. So everything I said is true.

There is no integrity or sportsmanship within the IBS organization, however, there are some fine sportman and gentleman that shoot IBS.

Daryl

LHSmith
09-13-2015, 09:22 AM
Before You Say Someone is Wrong You Need to Check the Records. Check Shooter Of Year Stats 2014. You will see me listed twice. I was NOT a IBS member. So everything I said is true.

There is no integrity or sportsmanship within the IBS organization, however, there are some fine sportman and gentleman that shoot IBS.

Daryl
So, lets get this straight. You attend score matches regularly without joining the organization that makes it possible.....fall through the cracks and get national recognition for your achievements, then go on a website and trash said organization as being bush league....is that about it?
I see you still attend score matches in the Northeast. Tell us what other organization holds matches in your region that offers more "serious shooting" ?
As far as integrity and sportsmanship, how would someone who continues to compete without abiding by the organizations rules recognize either one?

Wilbur
09-13-2015, 12:08 PM
What's wrong with the "integrity and sportsmanship"?

GerryM
09-13-2015, 01:33 PM
I guess I missed something along the way Last I knew you had to be a member in IBS to shoot their matches.
Same as NBRSA , or did it change back ?

Daryl
09-13-2015, 02:10 PM
So, lets get this straight. You attend score matches regularly without joining the organization that makes it possible.....fall through the cracks and get national recognition for your achievements, then go on a website and trash said organization as being bush league....is that about it?
I see you still attend score matches in the Northeast. Tell us what other organization holds matches in your region that offers more "serious shooting" ?
As far as integrity and sportsmanship, how would someone who continues to compete without abiding by the organizations rules recognize either one?

The Orginzation Does Not Abid By its Own Rules why should I. Especially when they ignore there own Safety rules. When they do that they put everyone in harms away.
I was at state match last year were a shooter shot 15 seconds after the cease fire. That person was not disqualified as the rules state. Even the official voice announcements of IBS say person doing that will be disqualified.
Oh yea they gave this person a award at the end of the match. IBS rules are meaningless if the organization and the clubs that run the matches don't follow them. At the individual level it does not matter.

Daryl

Tim Singleton
09-13-2015, 02:45 PM
All I can say is, those kind of people really do exist and are proud of their behavior

Wilbur
09-13-2015, 02:47 PM
Did you do anything about that other than come here and report? I'm really just asking because all members are responsible to challenge anything that doesn't meet the rules. Also, I wouldn't think you would need to be a member to report such as you mentioned. What I'm saying here is that you, and others, let that incident go! Further, instead of protesting, you came here and stated what happened! That's perfectly OK, but not the best thing you could do.

I'm not saying that it's OK but rather it will continue until the membership does something about it! Give that some thought. The IBS is not the only organization with such issues. In fact, I don't know of any organization that doesn't have similar issues. The general membership believes that, in most cases, it's somebody elses problem.

It's not ever someone elses problem...it's always your problem!

Daryl
09-13-2015, 02:52 PM
What's wrong with the "integrity and sportsmanship"?

There is nothing wrong with integrity and sportsmanship. I have the highest respect for integrity and sportsmanship shown by many of the competitors at IBS matches. But a organization that openly violates or allows violation of there own rules. Does not have integrity and is not showing good sportsmanship.

Wayne Shaw
09-13-2015, 04:51 PM
As I see it from my lofty perch, you are as guilty as the organization if you knowingly competed and accepted the points for your performance without making it known to those in charge that you are not a member. To come here now and air your dirty laundry is just as wrong as what the organization is doing.

I agree Francis. I know one person I will let know about this.

Hunter
09-13-2015, 05:05 PM
You do not need to be a member of IBS to shoot in IBS Matches. Just go to the match fill out the form. Do not check or check the box that your a IBS member....Go shoot have good time.


The Orginzation Does Not Abid By its Own Rules why should I. Especially when they ignore there own Safety rules. When they do that they put everyone in harms away.
... IBS rules are meaningless if the organization and the clubs that run the matches don't follow them. At the individual level it does not matter.

So, you're suggesting we go shoot at a place where we'll be "put [] in harms []way"? Thanks a lot.

BTW, what do you mean by the bolded part of your statement?

Also, I hope you'll let us know when and where you'll be shooting in the future -- I need to catch up on some stuff at home.

Daryl
09-13-2015, 06:18 PM
So, you're suggesting we go shoot at a place where we'll be "put [] in harms []way"? Thanks a lot.

BTW, what do you mean by the bolded part of your statement?

Also, I hope you'll let us know when and where you'll be shooting in the future -- I need to catch up on some stuff at home.

An organization that knowingly over looks safety rules is putting anyone that shoots in the organizations matches at risk.

LHSmith
09-13-2015, 07:32 PM
An organization that knowingly over looks safety rules is putting anyone that shoots in the organizations matches at risk.

This incident happened a year ago according to your post, yet you still continue to attend matches this year. As for a late shot, I don't see your safety rant as legit as the range is still live until all the following commands are given by the RM: "Cease fire.....remove your bolts.....remain seated.....show your bolts......Target Crew! And it is extremely unlikely the offending late shot came after "Show your bolts".

Daryl
09-14-2015, 06:57 AM
This incident happened a year ago according to your post, yet you still continue to attend matches this year. As for a late shot, I don't see your safety rant as legit as the range is still live until all the following commands are given by the RM: "Cease fire.....remove your bolts.....remain seated.....show your bolts......Target Crew! And it is extremely unlikely the offending late shot came after "Show your bolts".

IBS Rules
Page 16
IV. Safety
C) Firing

" No Shot shall be fired until "Commence Fire" has be given in its entirety or after "Cease Fire" has been initiated."

JerrySharrett
09-14-2015, 11:28 AM
Did you do anything about that other than come here and report? I'm really just asking because all members are responsible to challenge anything that doesn't meet the rules. Also, I wouldn't think you would need to be a member to report such as you mentioned. What I'm saying here is that you, and others, let that incident go! Further, instead of protesting, you came here and stated what happened! That's perfectly OK, but not the best thing you could do.


It's not ever someone elses problem...it's always your problem!

Speaking of someone else's problem....CCBW...the last Super Shoot that was registered (NBRSA) there were over 400 shooters, 7 relays. Someone, name not to be mentioned here, appointed me Chairman Referee he called it (head ref). During a LV event same unmentioned, reminded me we needed to weigh rifles!! Ask Jim Kelbly, then Range Officer, what resulted!!


...

Wayne Shaw
09-14-2015, 11:42 AM
This Daryl situation is being dealt with guys.

Tim Singleton
09-14-2015, 01:48 PM
This Daryl situation is being dealt with guys.


He wants to play by the rules. Hopefully this will work out so he gets what he wants

Hunter
09-14-2015, 02:31 PM
He wants to play by the rules. Hopefully this will work out so he gets what he wants

Tim, I think his posts show that he does not want to play by the rules.

Tim Singleton
09-14-2015, 03:34 PM
Tim, I think his posts show that he does not want to play by the rules.

Trying to be funny. Not to good at it.
He might not like the outcome !

Wilbur
09-15-2015, 10:45 PM
Speaking of someone else's problem....CCBW...the last Super Shoot that was registered (NBRSA) there were over 400 shooters, 7 relays. Someone, name not to be mentioned here, appointed me Chairman Referee he called it (head ref). During a LV event same unmentioned, reminded me we needed to weigh rifles!! Ask Jim Kelbly, then Range Officer, what resulted!!
...

Guilty as charged! There was rifle parts layin' all over the place. Folks were borrowing screwdrivers and wrenches everywhere you looked!

Wayne Shaw
09-16-2015, 07:18 AM
Daryl has spoken with a very prominent IBS person regarding all the things he has revealed here. Hopefully he will post here the what and whys of these things.

Wayne Shaw
09-17-2015, 07:19 AM
Obviously he won't.

Daryl
09-17-2015, 08:01 AM
Daryl has spoken with a very prominent IBS person regarding all the things he has revealed here. Hopefully he will post here the what and whys of these things.

Wayne not sure What you want me to post.

Yes, I did talk to someone prominent in the IBS community. Who I have known for awhile and have high respect.
He agreed on with many of my points. The most important that IBS matches put on by some clubs was becoming complacence and sloppy causing rules to be broken including safety rules.

I stand by my comment That any organization (by that I mean club, corporation, etc) that turns bind eye to safety violations is putting it competitors or members at risk. Yes, your prominent IBS person agreed with that.


As for your previous comments about Daryl situation is being dealt with guys. I am still waiting to be dealt with.


Daryl

Wayne Shaw
09-17-2015, 12:08 PM
Two sides to every story. I'm not at liberty to speak to the other side since I was not in the conversation, but I trust the version I heard. And we'll see how those points you supposedly accrued hold up.

Daryl
09-17-2015, 12:53 PM
Two sides to every story. I'm not at liberty to speak to the other side since I was not in the conversation, but I trust the version I heard. And we'll see how those points you supposedly accrued hold up.

Someone that makes threats about being taken care of. Now will not come forth with how or why falls in the category of @$%&*&^$#. That's because I do not get into name calling.
As for the points since your talking to Wayne, Tell him you have my OK to not count me in SOTY points. I shoot for the fun of shooting and fun, fellowship some of the people I shoot with. Score means nothing too me..

If I were you as IBS member, I would be asking how did someone that wasn't an IBS member get counted in the SOTY


Daryl

Tim Singleton
09-17-2015, 01:12 PM
If I were you as IBS member, I would be asking how did someone that wasn't an IBS member get counted in the SOTY


Daryl

It's called a cheater. I think most would hope Men that come to participate in a registered match don't need to be policed. To verify their honesty and integrity. Obviously in this instance the people conducting the match or matches in question were wrong
You present neither, and are proud of it

Daryl
09-17-2015, 03:02 PM
It's called a cheater. I think most would hope Men that come to participate in a registered match don't need to be policed. To verify their honesty and integrity. Obviously in this instance the people conducting the match or matches in question were wrong
You present neither, and are proud of it

I went to matches filled out IBS form, did not check that I was a member and never got asked if I was a member. I did not expect the be counted for SOTY. At that point you have to ask who was supposed the check for membership card, or who was supposed list me as guest for non score purposes. Somebody as in member of IBS should be asking why did it happen.

I am 6mm shooter the only cheaters I have met shoot 30cal. But that's whole other issue.

Wilbur
09-17-2015, 03:41 PM
Gentlemen,

Enough is enough...well, it's not enough for some, too much for many, but enough for me. Daryl has a valid point. Yes, we're kinda mad about it but the point is a real point nonetheless. Figure out what to do about it and just do it!

I'm not going to delete this thread but will lock it. Be nice! It ain't worth not being nice!!