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View Full Version : the flaw of claimming "practice" is the answer



mike in co
06-04-2015, 05:31 PM
from another thread..
"When I started out in bullseye pistol eons ago, I scrambled around looking for tips and tricks to help me. I asked one long time shooter for help. He told me, "if you're shooting tens, then some things may turn some of the tens into X's, but if you're shooting nine's, nothing will turn them into X's except practice."

and some say "practice makes perfect"

i got the same from high power shooters.
there is a flaw in the basic concept.

"PERFECT practice makes perfect" is correct.

the flaw is that in shooting you typically have three components.
gun, ammo and shooter, until you PROVE the ammo and the gun are perfect, the practice has little effect on the shooter.

in bullseye....have a known shooter with known skills shoot your gun your ammo, if he shoots all x's ,go practice.
if he does not shoot all x's, have him shoot your ammo in his gun, he shoots all x's get your gun fixed then go practice.
if he did not shoot all x's, we need to work on a new load, and go thru it all again. no need to practice with poor ammo.

in bench rest, if you are throwing powder with a .3-.6 grain spread...you will never know if the size of the group is you or the poor load.

stepping down from my soap box....putting on fire suit.....
be polite..i told wilbur i would behave, it would be nice if you did too.

James M.
06-04-2015, 05:58 PM
I have interviewed many BR shooters who are in the HOF. Don Geraci (now retired from competition) said that he practiced very little but tuned his equipment quite a bit. On the other hand Allen Arnette got enough points to get in the HOF in a period of 51 weeks (the fastest anyone got the necessary 10 points). He told me that he practiced every day that there was not "ice cream" conditions. He mowed the grass on those days. Tony Boyer practices with purpose in that he wants to test loads that tend to shoot well in the wind. He sends a large number of rounds down range every year. Larry Costa, like Allen Arnette, was mentored by Tony and he has range in which he can always practice in a cross wind ...if he desires. Those of us who are aspiring to "greatness" in Benchrest shooting should follow the example of these men. Good shooting....James Mock

afrench
06-04-2015, 06:54 PM
Mike... Really?!?

you're going for this right out of the gate??

lol, it should be entertaining!

Wilbur
06-04-2015, 07:01 PM
Well, you simply have to get your hands on a good rifle - then practice. Practicing with a bum rifle gains nothing. I do believe that pistol shooting is entirely different but you can't learn to shoot a pistol with one that doesn't shoot well. Pistols are tough. I had one that would shoot pretty good off hand but wouldn't shoot that well propped on something....go figure.

I believe there are folks that think every rifle made of benchrest quality components is capable of winning. That is not a true statement!!!! Next Super Shoot, ask Tony, Allen or Larry to swap rifles for just one target and see if they will. There's your answer!

If your rifle won't shoot a little powder spread you're not going to win (for more reasons than the weight). I think I mentioned this in another thread but weighing powder is purely a matter of preference for group shooters and I don't care if you believe that weighing is better. Weigh powder until the cows come home if you prefer. I'm not going to weigh powder - ever - too lazy. I believe Larry Costa weighs powder so it ain't a bad thing to do.

Mike - There's some truth in what you wrote....and....Thanks for behaving!!!

mike in co
06-04-2015, 07:07 PM
(read what it says,,,,,have the rifle and load worked out before practicing.
i understand in short range br that tuning for conditions is part of the game, but you have to have
solid data on what works in what condition , or imho, you are wasting time and ammo.
classic example....our friend in fresno PRACTICES throwing powder, so he does not waste time on poor loads)

did someone say i was opinionated ?? sorry i did not hear that....lol


Mike... Really?!?

you're going for this right out of the gate??

lol, it should be entertaining!

Mike Bryant
06-04-2015, 07:13 PM
I'm not sure you are going to be throwing powder charges with a .3-.6 gr spread. I did a test last month with five different measures throwing into 20 new 6.5 Grendel cases. Thrown just like you would throw them into a loading block. The dumped each case into a pan that was zeroed on a A&D scale. I was throwing as close to 29.4 gr of 133 as I could get the measures set. The best measure had a .009 SD. The worst about .011 SD with about .3 grain variance from highest to lowest weight charge. The Chargemaster set to throw 29.4 gr. had a .003 SD. with about a .1gr variance from high to low when weighed on the A&D. Last week I set my measure to what I was shooting at Raton and shot a ten shot string over an Oehler 35 chronograph. Also set the Chargemaster to throw the same load and then again setting the Chargemaster to throw a lighter charge then tricking in to the pan weighing it on the A&D scale. All three methods were right at 3400 fps. The 10 rounds that were loaded with the powder measure had a SD of 15. Those loaded from the Chargemaster had a SD of 5 and those trickled in to weight on the A&D scale had a SD of 3. All were shot as five shot groups with two fouling shots that were omitted from the strings. Group sizes were about the same whether thrown with a measure, Chargemaster or on the more accurate A&D scale. For ease of use, I'll use the Chargemaster. I've proven to my satisfaction it's better than throwing out of a measure. Using the high accuracy scales while they might be best are very difficult and slow to use in the time constraints and wind that can be around when loading outside at a match. Not every place has loading facilities as nice as those at Raton.

mike in co
06-04-2015, 07:24 PM
james..(nice to see you have not left)
we have to remember there is a difference in TESTING and PRACTICE.
once the testing is done the practice begins.



I have interviewed many BR shooters who are in the HOF. Don Geraci (now retired from competition) said that he practiced very little but tuned his equipment quite a bit. On the other hand Allen Arnette got enough points to get in the HOF in a period of 51 weeks (the fastest anyone got the necessary 10 points). He told me that he practiced every day that there was not "ice cream" conditions. He mowed the grass on those days. Tony Boyer practices with purpose in that he wants to test loads that tend to shoot well in the wind. He sends a large number of rounds down range every year. Larry Costa, like Allen Arnette, was mentored by Tony and he has range in which he can always practice in a cross wind ...if he desires. Those of us who are aspiring to "greatness" in Benchrest shooting should follow the example of these men. Good shooting....James Mock

mike in co
06-04-2015, 07:32 PM
mike,
inspite of your test results, you match results suggest that a charge master at .1(.2 variation) is better than throwing powder.
you finished ahead of the two guys who threw test loads for me...at .34 and .6 variations.



I'm not sure you are going to be throwing powder charges with a .3-.6 gr spread. I did a test last month with five different measures throwing into 20 new 6.5 Grendel cases. Thrown just like you would throw them into a loading block. The dumped each case into a pan that was zeroed on a A&D scale. I was throwing as close to 29.4 gr of 133 as I could get the measures set. The best measure had a .009 SD. The worst about .011 SD with about .3 grain variance from highest to lowest weight charge. The Chargemaster set to throw 29.4 gr. had a .003 SD. with about a .1gr variance from high to low when weighed on the A&D. Last week I set my measure to what I was shooting at Raton and shot a ten shot string over an Oehler 35 chronograph. Also set the Chargemaster to throw the same load and then again setting the Chargemaster to throw a lighter charge then tricking in to the pan weighing it on the A&D scale. All three methods were right at 3400 fps. The 10 rounds that were loaded with the powder measure had a SD of 15. Those loaded from the Chargemaster had a SD of 5 and those trickled in to weight on the A&D scale had a SD of 3. All were shot as five shot groups with two fouling shots that were omitted from the strings. Group sizes were about the same whether thrown with a measure, Chargemaster or on the more accurate A&D scale. For ease of use, I'll use the Chargemaster. I've proven to my satisfaction it's better than throwing out of a measure. Using the high accuracy scales while they might be best are very difficult and slow to use in the time constraints and wind that can be around when loading outside at a match. Not every place has loading facilities as nice as those at Raton.

mike in co
06-04-2015, 07:35 PM
gentlemen and ladies,
i think i need to add in short range br,
the ability to read conditions and shoot fast are part of the picture.
both improve with practice..perfect practice that is.
( i do both poorly)

Chism G
06-04-2015, 07:45 PM
Practice is and always has been and always will be a personal choice. That is,unless you played organized sports in High School,College, or professionally. In that case,you practiced when the Coach said practice. The guys who practiced after school(Encouraged by the Coach)always scored the most points on game day. Itís a no brainer.

If you donít play golf at least twice a week,your game will never improve.

Practice improves your skills at any Sport. It doesnít make you perfect. No style of practice can do that. Usually the guy that doesnít practice gets beat by the guy that does.

I need to practice understanding what my wind flags are indicating. Iím pulling the trigger at the wrong time. My targets donít lie. There is no substitute for trigger time. At least in my case.



Glenn

sdean
06-04-2015, 07:51 PM
I would say depends on which shooter you are talking about depends on how much practice. One trying to get under a .5's for 100 probably needs practice at wind reading, bench manners, tuning, throwing powder and more. Practice is a Big word. You already proved in your little experiment that charge differences won't keep you out the top 20. The rest of the shooters that wouldn't give a sample probably don't want to know or don't think it matters much. I also think Wilbur has a good point, there is nothing like a great shooting gun to make it look like you practice a lot.

CharlieH
06-04-2015, 08:05 PM
There is no flaw with practice making you better, the flaw lies with thinking it will make you better than the most talented. Lots of folks just can't face that reality, but it's what keeps us going.

adamsgt
06-04-2015, 08:12 PM
Mike, I was there at Raton and didn't meet you. That's me you're quoting below. Trying to reach that far back in my memory lead me to paraphrase as I couldn't remember the exact words. I'd like to elaborate on my statement. Oh hell, never mind. I've got cases to load for fire forming, and that's more important and more interesting anyway.


from another thread..
"When I started out in bullseye pistol eons ago, I scrambled around looking for tips and tricks to help me. I asked one long time shooter for help. He told me, "if you're shooting tens, then some things may turn some of the tens into X's, but if you're shooting nine's, nothing will turn them into X's except practice."

and some say "practice makes perfect"

i got the same from high power shooters.
there is a flaw in the basic concept.

"PERFECT practice makes perfect" is correct.

the flaw is that in shooting you typically have three components.
gun, ammo and shooter, until you PROVE the ammo and the gun are perfect, the practice has little effect on the shooter.

in bullseye....have a known shooter with known skills shoot your gun your ammo, if he shoots all x's ,go practice.
if he does not shoot all x's, have him shoot your ammo in his gun, he shoots all x's get your gun fixed then go practice.
if he did not shoot all x's, we need to work on a new load, and go thru it all again. no need to practice with poor ammo.

in bench rest, if you are throwing powder with a .3-.6 grain spread...you will never know if the size of the group is you or the poor load.

stepping down from my soap box....putting on fire suit.....
be polite..i told wilbur i would behave, it would be nice if you did too.

mike in co
06-04-2015, 08:22 PM
gerald.....
it did not ring as jerry...
that's why i missed you..and you were shooting at the other end.
i tried to introduce myself to as many as i could....

mike in co
06-04-2015, 08:24 PM
the fact that you do not think there is flaw is part of the problem....
doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the flaw.


There is no flaw with practice making you better, the flaw lies with thinking it will make you better than the most talented. Lots of folks just can't face that reality, but it's what keeps us going.

Mike Bryant
06-04-2015, 08:52 PM
mike,
inspite of your test results, you match results suggest that a charge master at .1(.2 variation) is better than throwing powder.
you finished ahead of the two guys who threw test loads for me...at .34 and .6 variations.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I think using a Chargemaster is better than using a measure by test weights and by practice. It quite a bit slower than using a measure. One thing I like about the Chargemaster besides that it measures out a more uniform weight of powder than any of the measures that I have, when I make a weight change on the CM I know it makes that amount of change. When I change a measure a ball indent click or two, it may change a little, a lot or none at all depending upon the measure. When using a measure, I try to set it with a scale by weight. There are lots of very successful shooters that only use their measure and never weigh anything. I spent most of today shooting, fire forming brass, working on tuning a barrel. Running LT30 over a chronograph to see what it would do and also some work with 133. The temperatures here were around 88 degrees. The load I shot last week at 73 degrees to 81 degrees was running 50 fps faster than before. One group at that velocity was good, the next wouldn't touch a bullet hole. Whether shooting like this will help you win matches, I don't know. But, it certainly doesn't hurt. The wind was about the poorest on my range as any time I've ever shot there. Closest two flags were pointing left and the farthest two were mainly pointing right and lots of vacillating. Not good conditions for tuning, but you shoot when you can. I think the hot load of 133 that I was shooting was just a little too hot as evidenced by one good group and then not being able to touch bullet holes the next. Shot from 26 to 28 gr of LT30 and was getting velocities from 3150 to 3400 fps.