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mike in co
06-04-2015, 12:50 AM
ladies and gentlemen,
at the best of the west match at raton nm, i asked a bunch of shooters
to provide me with thrown charges of n133.
first..i noticed a lot of rcbs chargemaster's, and few guys with electronic
scales for their thrown charges.
i only got two guys to submit samples, so not a very scientific sample size.
i "think" some know how bad n133 throws and choose to not participate.
i got 9 thrown charges from 2 shooters. bagged and taken home. weighed on
my a&d fx120i....good to 0.02.

shooter one
24.80
24.72
25.02
24.92
24.62
25.08
24.48
24.76
24.80
spread 0.6
avg 24.80

shooter two
29.04
28.94
29.10
29.08
29.00
28.90
28.76
28.98
28.82
ave 28.95
spread 0.34

i still contend that throwing n133 means the shooter
is leaving accuracy on the loading bench.
both of these shooters finished in the top 20.
the guy with the .34 spread finished above the guy with the .6 spread....
was it better shooting or better loading ??

Boyd Allen
06-04-2015, 01:24 AM
Having spent more time than anyone that I have ever heard of or read about trying really out of the box ways to throw 133, (something that only requires powder, a measure, and a very good scale), and having observed how shooters throw powder at matches, I am not surprised by the results of your survey, however small the sample may have been.
IMO given the node width of 133 and the average, and even above average thrown charge consistency, I think that your conclusion is correct. For everyone who cannot throw exceptionally well, they are probably leaving something on the table. I just wish that any of this would result in better rifle handling, picking a better condition to start ones group in, or reading flags. I would also add that I have seen any number of teen aggs shot with thrown charges. Go figure.

Wilbur
06-04-2015, 01:55 AM
I've never weighed powder when shooting benchrest. A skosh better rifle using thrown charges will beat the weighed charges every time. I don't see why weighed powder wouldn't win given equal rifles (or the same rifle) but I don't know that to be true. It really doesn't matter much given those that weigh, and those that don't, are not going to change.

If your rifle shoots a .3xx agg while others are shooting teens, weighing powder is a complete waste of time.

Lee Martin
06-04-2015, 09:09 AM
By how much did the 0.34 spread "finish ahead of" the 0.60? As for me, I'll continue to throw for short-range. If weighing really netted much, I think you'd see more pre-weighing in the sport. Meanwhile I'll continue to practice my throwing technique as Boyd described. If I can stay within a 0.3 spread or so I'm happy....I doubt anything tighter could be seen at 100/200.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

adamsgt
06-04-2015, 09:55 AM
When I started out in bullseye pistol eons ago, I scrambled around looking for tips and tricks to help me. I asked one long time shooter for help. He told me, "if you're shooting tens, then some things may turn some of the tens into X's, but if you're shooting nine's, nothing will turn them into X's except practice."

ReedG
06-04-2015, 10:38 AM
I have fired thousands of rounds, burning up some pretty good barrels in the process, trying to find a demonstrable difference between weighed and thrown charges. Not with N133 as I've never used it. My 30BR is loaded with H4198 (except for a dozen or so trying LT-32) and my 6PPC eat 8208XBR and LT-32. I am, at best, a "middle-of-the-pack" shooter but nobody enjoys it more than I do.

1. I have filled spreadsheets with data, results, etc., to no avail. Not a single repeatable result on the paper.

2. There are so many things that affect a tiny group or high X-count that the miniscule difference in powder charge is meaningless. I can move a 30BR hole in the paper by 1/2" just by varying my shoulder pressure on the buttplate. At 200 yards, the result of poor "bench manners" is scary. Tightening or loosening the front bag moves the bullet. Pushing the stock against the stop or letting it slip back a bit moves the bullet.

3. Even carefully weighed charges carefully trickled into the cases through a long drop tube, end up at different levels in the case. This indicates the internal area of the cases are different. Given that (and no, I'm going to fill the all with water, etc., etc.) what difference in actual pressure and burning rate does a few tenths make?

4. The wind and mirage are nobody's "friend". Therein is the secret to tiny groups, regardless of how your charges were determined.

5. Dicking around with "concentricity" in short-range BR with a custom chamber is borderline lunacy. My chambers and FL custom dies leave .001" (.0005 per side) of free space at all points in the chamber; the bullets are sitting in a zero freebore throat just kissing the lands. Where in heck can there be any concentricity issue? If I intentionally skew a bullet to .010" out of concentricity, simply chambering the case straightens it out.

6. The problem is we spend much more time at the loading bench than at the range. And I can spend copious amounts of money to get the "exact" this or that; and I especially love the "fooling around".

Bottom line to me: nothing will improve your results on the target like methodically paying attention to the conditions and your bench manners. Body position will negate many tenths of a grain of powder. Not understanding or seeing a minor condition will ruin a group much worse than .02-gr. of powder.

The good side of this for me is that I do this whole crazy hobby for the shooting, so I enjoy getting to the range and shooting. Barrels actually cost less than the "must-have" loading equipment I've accumulated over the years. There may be 10 shooters in the sport who can outshoot .02-gr. of powder, but I've never met one of them.

mike in co
06-04-2015, 10:45 AM
reed. this was specifically about n133.
16yrs ago when i started looking at club br n133 was the powder of choice.
but when i tried to throw charges i ran into this issue of large spreads.
so here it is 16 yrs later and it has not changed.
i weigh my charges for 600/1000 in both 300 win mag and 6mm dasher. i do the same with h4198 and lt30 for my 30 br.
no thrown charges in competition..none.
try lt30 in the 30br...straight from lou's lips...a bit more powder, a bit more velocity..all the accuracy.


I have fired thousands of rounds, burning up some pretty good barrels in the process, trying to find a demonstrable difference between weighed and thrown charges. Not with N133 as I've never used it. My 30BR is loaded with H4198 (except for a dozen or so trying LT-32) and my 6PPC eat 8208XBR and LT-32. I am, at best, a "middle-of-the-pack" shooter but nobody enjoys it more than I do.

1. I have filled spreadsheets with data, results, etc., to no avail. Not a single repeatable result on the paper.

2. There are so many things that affect a tiny group or high X-count that the miniscule difference in powder charge is meaningless. I can move a 30BR hole in the paper by 1/2" just by varying my shoulder pressure on the buttplate. At 200 yards, the result of poor "bench manners" is scary. Tightening or loosening the front bag moves the bullet. Pushing the stock against the stop or letting it slip back a bit moves the bullet.

3. Even carefully weighed charges carefully trickled into the cases through a long drop tube, end up at different levels in the case. This indicates the internal area of the cases are different. Given that (and no, I'm going to fill the all with water, etc., etc.) what difference in actual pressure and burning rate does a few tenths make?

4. The wind and mirage are nobody's "friend". Therein is the secret to tiny groups, regardless of how your charges were determined.

5. Dicking around with "concentricity" in short-range BR with a custom chamber is borderline lunacy. My chambers and FL custom dies leave .001" (.0005 per side) of free space at all points in the chamber; the bullets are sitting in a zero freebore throat just kissing the lands. Where in heck can there be any concentricity issue? If I intentionally skew a bullet to .010" out of concentricity, simply chambering the case straightens it out.

6. The problem is we spend much more time at the loading bench than at the range. And I can spend copious amounts of money to get the "exact" this or that; and I especially love the "fooling around".

Bottom line to me: nothing will improve your results on the target like methodically paying attention to the conditions and your bench manners. Body position will negate many tenths of a grain of powder. Not understanding or seeing a minor condition will ruin a group much worse than .02-gr. of powder.

The good side of this for me is that I do this whole crazy hobby for the shooting, so I enjoy getting to the range and shooting. Barrels actually cost less than the "must-have" loading equipment I've accumulated over the years. There may be 10 shooters in the sport who can outshoot .02-gr. of powder, but I've never met one of them.

mike in co
06-04-2015, 10:50 AM
i did not get permission to post names..
the 0.34 was 7 up from the .6
they are actually very high in the top 20.
for correctness of reporting, Jim Hemmert was throwing charges, but i do not think he was using n133.


By how much did the 0.34 spread "finish ahead of" the 0.60? As for me, I'll continue to throw for short-range. If weighing really netted much, I think you'd see more pre-weighing in the sport. Meanwhile I'll continue to practice my throwing technique as Boyd described. If I can stay within a 0.3 spread or so I'm happy....I doubt anything tighter could be seen at 100/200.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Chism G
06-04-2015, 11:40 AM
I have fired thousands of rounds, burning up some pretty good barrels in the process, trying to find a demonstrable difference between weighed and thrown charges. Not with N133 as I've never used it. My 30BR is loaded with H4198 (except for a dozen or so trying LT-32) and my 6PPC eat 8208XBR and LT-32. I am, at best, a "middle-of-the-pack" shooter but nobody enjoys it more than I do.

1. I have filled spreadsheets with data, results, etc., to no avail. Not a single repeatable result on the paper.

2. There are so many things that affect a tiny group or high X-count that the miniscule difference in powder charge is meaningless. I can move a 30BR hole in the paper by 1/2" just by varying my shoulder pressure on the buttplate. At 200 yards, the result of poor "bench manners" is scary. Tightening or loosening the front bag moves the bullet. Pushing the stock against the stop or letting it slip back a bit moves the bullet.

3. Even carefully weighed charges carefully trickled into the cases through a long drop tube, end up at different levels in the case. This indicates the internal area of the cases are different. Given that (and no, I'm going to fill the all with water, etc., etc.) what difference in actual pressure and burning rate does a few tenths make?

4. The wind and mirage are nobody's "friend". Therein is the secret to tiny groups, regardless of how your charges were determined.

5. Dicking around with "concentricity" in short-range BR with a custom chamber is borderline lunacy. My chambers and FL custom dies leave .001" (.0005 per side) of free space at all points in the chamber; the bullets are sitting in a zero freebore throat just kissing the lands. Where in heck can there be any concentricity issue? If I intentionally skew a bullet to .010" out of concentricity, simply chambering the case straightens it out.

6. The problem is we spend much more time at the loading bench than at the range. And I can spend copious amounts of money to get the "exact" this or that; and I especially love the "fooling around".

Bottom line to me: nothing will improve your results on the target like methodically paying attention to the conditions and your bench manners. Body position will negate many tenths of a grain of powder. Not understanding or seeing a minor condition will ruin a group much worse than .02-gr. of powder.

The good side of this for me is that I do this whole crazy hobby for the shooting, so I enjoy getting to the range and shooting. Barrels actually cost less than the "must-have" loading equipment I've accumulated over the years. There may be 10 shooters in the sport who can outshoot .02-gr. of powder, but I've never met one of them.




Great Post ,ReedG. My Views and Motivation are similar. Some of my problem is not enough practice.



Glenn

adamsgt
06-04-2015, 10:09 PM
Jim Hemmert was throwing charges, but i do not think he was using n133.

I think Jim was able to find a keg of Magic Fairy Dust. That was incredible shooting

S.Seitz
06-04-2015, 10:26 PM
After so many mixed results with 133 I will only load my ppc at the shop. It means loading a ton of rounds to have every one I need. But I can't throw 133 to save my life. Just starting testing xbr in the new gun. Time will tell. Might go back to 322 (old stock)

TylerT
06-05-2015, 09:17 AM
Ed Adams won the two gun throwing 133, I came in thrid in the two gun throwing 133??
So what's the problem again.

mike in co
06-05-2015, 09:40 AM
it is quite simple...most people cannot throw it at plus or minus 0.1
a chargemaster can.
your results convince people that it is ok to throw..even when they do not know how poorly they are doing.

congrats on your shooting!

Ed Adams won the two gun throwing 133, I came in thrid in the two gun throwing 133??
So what's the problem again.

jackie schmidt
06-05-2015, 09:55 AM
I am back to throwing charges.

In my 30BR, the best scores I have shot were with thrown charges of 4198 out of my old, (1996), Bruno measure.

I use a Hensler in my 6PPC with 133. I have meticulously weighed each charge, and simply thrown them. I cannot tell the difference either on the target or over my Chronograph.

I have a Chargemaster. I have sat down with it in my office, weighed charges, and then checked them on my Denver Electronics TP153 Scale, which is very accurate. Guess what. If you throw 20 charges, the variation can be as much as .4 out of the Chargemaster. The resolution on their system is really not that accurate.

I also have a Lyman Electronic Range scale that does no better. You can put a case on it, zero it, Throw a charge and add powder as needed to get it exact, and it has about the same tolerance as the Chargemaster.

Unless you have a scale that has the resolution of this Denver unit, you are probably wasting a lot of time weighing charges.

Mike Bryant
06-05-2015, 10:30 AM
When the wind is blowing like it was at Raton, the match is won by the person who reads their flags the best and doesn't lose that one or two shots to condition changes. A gun has to be tuned but how much of that tune relates to how exact the powder charge is? The rifle has to be tuned, but maybe not as well as it needs to be for trigger pulling conditions (conditions we very rarely ever see in the GC or MC regions). I've done enough ladder testing with widely varying powder charges from lower weights to higher weights that see very little point of impact shift from lower to higher powder charges. A rifle out of tune may look like its shooting but pop a shot out of the group. As long as the shooter can keep his rifle in tune, read the flags well, start the group and finish the group when it's best to do it and not have those group killer shots, that shooter will probably be at the top if not the top of the leader board. You see more and more people at matches using Chargemasters especially when using 133. However, with the very limited testing that I've done, I didn't see much difference in weigh variation between how 133 threw through a measure than how LT32 threw. At the World match in Australia, Don Creach told me that most of the U.S. team members were weighing their powder. It certainly doesn't hurt.

adamsgt
06-05-2015, 10:35 AM
Before going to the "Best of the West" I decided to check my Dodd measure to see how well it would drop charges in the area I was likely to use, 27 to 29 grains of LT-32.
I used seven different settings on the measure and did ten drops on each. I weighed each drop on my Fx120i. The difference in the Hi and Low at each measure setting varied from .14 to .32. The average of the differences was .21. So, I guess you could say that, over the total population charges dropped, the variation from the mean was about 0.1. Now I'm no statistician, so I can't say if that is a valid assumption. I do have two chargemasters and like them but a measure is a lot less gear to pack. I also have a Harrel measure and I'm going to run the same type experiment on that.

mike in co
06-05-2015, 10:35 AM
jackie,
have you tried the tunning tips for the charge master ??


I am back to throwing charges.

In my 30BR, the best scores I have shot were with thrown charges of 4198 out of my old, (1996), Bruno measure.

I use a Hensler in my 6PPC with 133. I have meticulously weighed each charge, and simply thrown them. I cannot tell the difference either on the target or over my Chronograph.

I have a Chargemaster. I have sat down with it in my office, weighed charges, and then checked them on my Denver Electronics TP153 Scale, which is very accurate. Guess what. If you throw 20 charges, the variation can be as much as .4 out of the Chargemaster. The resolution on their system is really not that accurate.

I also have a Lyman Electronic Range scale that does no better. You can put a case on it, zero it, Throw a charge and add powder as needed to get it exact, and it has about the same tolerance as the Chargemaster.

Unless you have a scale that has the resolution of this Denver unit, you are probably wasting a lot of time weighing charges.

mike in co
06-05-2015, 10:42 AM
0.01 ??
explain that...
looks like plus or minus 0.12 at the best and 0.16 at the worst, for a average spread of 0.28.


i have done imr8208, thunderbird8202 and n133 thru my harrells. since Lou gave me some lt30, i will do it after the NBRSA 600/1000 nationals next week.




Before going to the "Best of the West" I decided to check my Dodd measure to see how well it would drop charges in the area I was likely to use, 27 to 29 grains of LT-32.
I used seven different settings on the measure and did ten drops on each. I weighed each drop on my Fx120i. The difference in the Hi and Low at each measure setting varied from .14 to .32. The average of the differences was .21. So, I guess you could say that, over the total population charges dropped, the variation from the mean was about .01. Now I'm no statistician, so I can't say if that is a valid assumption. I do have two chargemasters and like them but a measure is a lot less gear to pack. I also have a Harrel measure and I'm going to run the same type experiment on that.

mike in co
06-05-2015, 10:51 AM
boyd and i have been talking.
he has published several times that he has worked hard at getting consistent
charges from a powder thrower. one of the thing he and i both agree one is that simplest
thing you can do is to maintain a constant level in the powder bottle. simply mark your bottle
at the half way point and then up an inch or so. keep the powder in that band and you CAN
throw more consistent charges.

any spot works, the narrower the height of the band the more consistent.

set up one bottle to feed the measure bottle (bottle on top of bottle). a three inch tube from the top bottle
sitting inside the second bottle will keep the level very consistent.

Boyd Allen
06-05-2015, 11:13 AM
My approach is similar but slightly different. I have found that for 133, using my Harrell's measure, that there is a specific fill height band that works best for me (500 ml. bottles). My measure is put away in my range loading kit at the moment. When I first got the measure, back in the late 90s, testing showed that I got better results without the baffle.

adamsgt
06-05-2015, 11:19 AM
0.01 ??
explain that...
looks like plus or minus 0.12 at the best and 0.16 at the worst, for a average spread of 0.28.


Good catch Mike, that was a typo and I fixed it. The actual differences for the seven strings were 0.14, 0.16, 0.32, 0.22, 0.26, .18, 0.22. So, if Excel did the math right the average of the differences is 0.214286, which I rounded off to 0.21. I just ran the median function on the differences and Ecxel rounded up to 0.22. Close enough.

Boyd Allen
06-05-2015, 11:42 AM
When I am testing, my standard is that all throws at a given setting, that I would have accepted for charging a case, have an extreme spread of .2 grains. Usually if a technique is not going to work, that will show up within a dozen or so throws. If I get good results, I do larger numbers of throws, up to about 20. Many times things have looked very good, only to have an outlier crop up. It is the elimination of these that is most difficult.

afrench
06-06-2015, 07:36 PM
well, that post didn't last long.

Gene Beggs
06-07-2015, 09:05 AM
Weighed vs., thrown powder charges? :confused:

This is a subject I've always found particularly interesting. Like so many others, I've spent countless hours at the kitchen bar or dining table with various measures, powders and scales practicing different techniques trying to achieve that illusive 'perfect' result. :rolleyes: I can tell you right up front that perfection with either method cannot be achieved and in my opinion, nor is it necessary! :rolleyes:

Before I continue, keep in mind that I'm a short-range, group shooter. My experience in has been limited to mostly the 6ppc, 22-100, Lapua 220 Russian (a.k.a. the 220 Beggs and the 6 Beggs.)

The long range shooters weigh their charges and try to keep extreme spreads to a minimum, usually down in the single digits as variations in velocity really show up at longer ranges. The inevitable 20 to 40 fps extreme spreads seen with the 6ppc and 6Beggs using modern powders, good primers and either carefully weighed or thrown charges do not show up on the target at 100 and 200 yards. Yep, it's true and I can prove it to you in the tunnel. :cool:

Some powders flow through a Culver type measure like quicksilver and very definitely show smaller variations in charge weight and extreme velocity spreads. W-748, a small grain ball powder is tops in this regard in the tests I've run, but in the 6ppc, I never got it to shoot as well as N133 or 8208. To me, the new LT-32 looks exactly like the original T powder from Thunderbird. Both are small-grain, extruded powders and flow beautifully through my Jones measure.

In the tests I've run through the years, I've used Sinclair, Jones and Harrels measures. All performed equally well when kept clean, free of static electricity and using good operator technique. I don't use slow, complicated methods of operating. Simplicity and consistency is the key in my experience. :cool:
I raise the operating handle quickly and smoothly to the top stop, pause momentarily then use whatever technique is necessary on the down stroke to get the charge in the case. If there is plenty of room in the case just dump the charge quickly. If you are trickling slowly in order to get a heavy charge in the case, don't worry about the slow down stroke affecting the charge. The charge is determined on the upstroke of the handle. If you are quick and smooth on the upstroke and pause momentarily at the top, your charges will be very consistent. If you vary the rate at which you raise the handle, your charge weights will be all over the place.

Practice throwing 20 charges into clean, new cases with a spent primer seated upside down. Use the same cartridge tray or box you use on the firing line. Do everything exactly the same then weigh each charge using an accurate scale that you trust. If you can consistently throw 20 charges in which 90 percent of them are within plus or minus .1 grains, you're doing great and need not worry about whether or not you're 'leaving anything on the table' in short-range BR. :D

Once in a while, maybe one out of twenty, you will throw a charge that is .3 grains high or low. :mad: Don't worry 'bout it! If your rifle is properly tuned and shooting, it will ignore, due to positive compensation, an extreme spread of as much as 40 fps.

Well, there you have it; my opinion based on years of experience in match competition and in a 100 yard tunnel. I encourage you to run some tests of your own. Those who know me will say that I'm always trying to separate the fly poop from the pepper, always looking for easier, better, simpler ways of doing things. Some things make a difference, some don't. Others do no harm but waste valuable time. In my opinion, weighing each charge to the nearest gazillionth of a grain is a waste of time. :rolleyes: But don't get me wrong; you must know by weight in grains, what your measure is throwing. A small but reasonably accurate scale in your equipment box should be used to set your powder measure. I just don't think you need to weight each and every charge.

FWIW

Good shootin'

Gene Beggs

mike in co
06-07-2015, 09:47 AM
thank you gene!...
i believe you may be correct with n133..big soft tuning window....but i do not see guys dropping it at plus or minus .1, and
i think that is where they do leave stuff on the table.
have you tried either of the "lt" powders in your 6 begg's ??

afrench
06-07-2015, 12:20 PM
Mike,

Itís all about the tune! Getting and keeping the gun in tune for the conditions and environment at that particular moment is everything.

The guy that wins at the end of the weekend has done a better job of tuning and driving the gun than everyone else.

We all know that short range and long range BR have some similarities, but some differences too as to what is necessary to win. I know very little about long range BR and what it takes to win. It seems that most LRBR guys go preloaded to a match with charges weighed to .01gr variation and are able to make that work over the course of a weekend with all the condition and environment changes. That wonít work in short range BR with the typical 6ppcÖ 30BR is another story, but letís stick with the ppc as it is what most guys are using right now.

I donít know what the causes are as to why the small adjustments are necessary to keep the ppc in tune. Small case capacity, short bearing surface, relatively fast burn rate powders, etcÖ who the hell knows.

You keep making the statement that by not having all charges to the .01 grain, short range guys are leaving something on the table. So, in your mind, what does that mean? Are you saying that you want to get your gun tuned to shooting zeros or ones and thatís it, the gun is perfectly tuned and will be so for all temp swings and condition changes?

Ok, lets say you come preloaded to a match and you gun is shooting zeros at 100 with a 10-15 mph wind from 9:00. What do you think your groups will look like when the wind turns to 12 or 6:00?? Still shooting zeros?

At the last match at Raton, I felt that Saturday at 100 was much more challenging that Sunday at 200. The winds were harder and switched direction much more quickly than anything I saw on Sunday. I started off Saturday with the gun in tune, luckily. I shot well for LV but got caught a little on the last 2 groups in HV. I was shooting 29.0 of 133 and didnít change the powder all day for the record groups. On the last 3 or so targets, I was getting a little vertical in my groups but I was fine with that because I would have rather shot .300 vertical groups at the end of the match than shoot perfectly flat .450s in the wind we were seeing then. And, yes, I did check what a lower charge looked like on the sighter and it was worse than what I shot on the record.

Where Iím going with all of this is that there are times when you want the shape of the group to do something other than shoot zeros. You canít do that preloaded. (Usually. Iím aware of how some folks tune with tuners but thatís not the discussion I want to have here.)

So, Iíll see your point and question and raise you my point and question.

While itís great to shoot well in a particular yardage, the real goal is to have your name at the top of the page in the 2gun. I think that if folks were to follow your suggestion of coming preloaded to matches, they will actually shoot worse and end up further down the page (2gun) than if they shoot charges from a powder measure or chargemaster.

Mike, would you rather shoot a .250 with powder thrown from a measure, with its horrible .3 or .4 variance, or shoot a .500 straight up and down or horizontally with perfectly weighed charges that are .5 grain from being in tune??

Dusty Stevens
06-07-2015, 12:38 PM
Sometimes mike (all the time) you gotta keep tuning that gun. Go ask the top finishers at any match and see how many times they changed load over their 20 groups to stay in tune. The ones that cant follow the tune but shoot good are mid pack. The preloaders and broke scope guys are last. Ok ok sometimes we get lucky and never change nothin thru a whole match but thats rare. So now that youve seen how we do things first hand are you going to start coming to more matches?

Wilbur
06-07-2015, 01:28 PM
Once you have a rifle that is capable of winning, you'll understand what we're trying to tell you. Until then, there's no harm in weighing powder...or not weighing powder. There is some harm but not much and if you weigh the charges at home you reverse the harm into good.

I wouldn't recommend that a new shooter weigh powder and that's what you are - a new shooter. Doesn't matter how many shots you have fired, you're a new benchrest shooter and benchrest shooting (group) is as different as it gets.

AND...thanks to goodgrouper for deleting that post. It was all I could do to keep from restoring it.

Dave Coots
06-07-2015, 09:48 PM
When I am testing, my standard is that all throws at a given setting, that I would have accepted for charging a case, have an extreme spread of .2 grains. Usually if a technique is not going to work, that will show up within a dozen or so throws. If I get good results, I do larger numbers of throws, up to about 20. Many times things have looked very good, only to have an outlier crop up. It is the elimination of these that is most difficult.

Testing and then proving a method at a match is two different things.

Later
Dave

mike in co
06-07-2015, 10:13 PM
i do not think i ever said come preloaded.
what i have said from day one is that if you are throwing n133 you are leaving accuracy on the loading bench.
the chargemaster is a step in the right direction.
with n133's large tune window, it may be all you need.( i tuned chargemaster...plus or minus .1)
an independent loading bench with an electronic scale at better than 0.1 would be nice.
i tried my gempro 250 at raton..on battaries,it was not close to what it holds on house current.
so a stable power source, and an electronic scale..
i suppose some shooting skill might help.
wish me luck this week....

Hal D.
06-07-2015, 11:42 PM
i do not think i ever said come preloaded.
what i have said from day one is that if you are throwing n133 you are leaving accuracy on the loading bench.

What these folks are trying to tell you is that the only accuracy that is being left by thrown charges, is left at the bench. A finely tuned, winning, Group BR rifle will put them all through a little hole, even with the variation you quoted. Matter of fact, quite a bit more variation will still shoot dots in a great rifle. A few years back, I found a bullet/barrel/powder/seating depth combo that would shoot 29.2, 29.5, 29.8, 30.1, and 30.4 grains of 133, all through the same hole. Whenever I search for the right seating depth and tuner setting on a new barrel, this is the method I use to settle on a spot. Unfortunately, combos like this don't grow on trees...

mike in co
06-08-2015, 12:10 AM
so ., when the next bbl does not drill one hole with a wide powder window.....do you continue to throw a wide load ??
or do you try to narrow the window ??
if you try to narrow the window and you are throwing powder, you may not have much luck if you cannot throw at plus or minus .1.
and most cannot...
if you cannot control the powder charge how do you KNOW what the issue is ??


What these folks are trying to tell you is that the only accuracy that is being left by thrown charges, is left at the bench. A finely tuned, winning, Group BR rifle will put them all through a little hole, even with the variation you quoted. Matter of fact, quite a bit more variation will still shoot dots in a great rifle. A few years back, I found a bullet/barrel/powder/seating depth combo that would shoot 29.2, 29.5, 29.8, 30.1, and 30.4 grains of 133, all through the same hole. Whenever I search for the right seating depth and tuner setting on a new barrel, this is the method I use to settle on a spot. Unfortunately, combos like this don't grow on trees...

Wilbur
06-08-2015, 12:39 PM
I know that if it won't win with dropped powder, it won't win. Folks like you and me don't have the cash to buy 10 barrels so we have to learn to shoot best with what we have. A lousy barrel will shoot within a few places, everytime, no matter what you do. Weighed powder or dropped powder - same thing. Really - same thing over and over.

Now, we finally get a really good shooting rifle.....voila!...things become different. Now we can talk weighing or not weighing. This is not a argument but rather a discussion. Larry Costa weighs powder and has always weighed powder to my knowledge. He weighed powder when he wasn't winning (I was there). I think he figured out it wasn't whether or not he weighs powder but rather the rifle he shoots. Regardless, I don't think Larry just buys one barrel and weighs powder. Could be wrong - really, I could be wrong!

The bottom line here is that you and I don't have enough money to argue the point. You weigh and I'll drop. That's it! I will agree that weighed powder is best. No brainer!

Boyd Allen
06-08-2015, 01:52 PM
Back in the late 90's a fellow introduced me to all things benchrest, a fellow that built rifles for himself and others, and was good enough to redo a mold plug for Lee Six. At the beginning, I asked him how one assigns an order of importance to all of the details that contribute to shooting small groups in matches, or words to that effect. I think that that is the issue here. For some things to show up on the target, you need to have a long list of more important things well in hand, and if those things are not, then you are wasting your time.

I have helped several fellows get started with PPCs. The rifles that they have been blessed to start with would shoot into the high 1's under perfect conditions. Invariably, having gotten a taste of a higher level of accuracy, their minds turned to details that were not the next on an informed to do list. It happens all the time. A good barrel, learning how to maintain tune as the ambient conditions change, a set of wind flags, and lots of practice are all ahead of any concern about the difference that may or may not be seen by weighing charges. The fellows that ignore this, invariably end up with a couple of wallet groups and go round in circles. They resist using flags, and prefer to load at home, seldom practice, and become expert rationalizers.

Larry Wilkins
06-08-2015, 02:45 PM
Wilbur...

A bit of levity.. In the 90s learning from Lee Six, with a brand new gun from Sinclair and all stuff from Walt Berger, I was allowed to load at the " Master " The table, that was a 5x9, 1" sheet of plywood on stacked 8x cinder blocks.
Each of 'The Best " would operate his powder measure as he knew best, and the TABLE would respond with the proper drop. In need of the best idea, watched all 5 shooter doing their thing, and to this date I remember all those measuring devices seemed to allow very low 1s on the wailing board.
As I have always said, Nothing new under the Sun. Thanks Wilbur

Dusty Stevens
06-09-2015, 01:43 AM
Mike- i know its frustrating to have a good idea and then get so much resistance. What we've been trying to tell you for years and now you have seen it first hand- weighed charges make no difference in short range br. Now im not saying a rookie with a harrels thrower is not leaving something on the table, but what we've been trying to say is once the other things come together 133 has such a wide window that those variances that an experienced thrower gets does not matter at all. I doubt boyer weighs his charges, i know scarbrough doesnt, dont think mr buckys does, know billy and bart doesnt, and i could go on and on. But i can appreciate you trying to better the sport

B J Atkinson
06-11-2015, 09:24 PM
I have followed this thread with interest, as for years I have been telling people that N133 does NOT throw consistent charges from any of the powder measures that I have seen - including some well constructed custom jobs.
I have used a Chargemaster for quite some time now for this reason, and yes I do check the charge with an Acculab scales from time to time.

As a matter of interest, when we shot in the WBC in South Africa, we had to use the local powder (SomChem), and it was a real bugger to throw accurately. My team weighed every charge, and found some alarming variations.

Other powders such as the Australian 8202 throw beautifully, almost like WW 748, but I believe that the kernel size of the powder might have something to do with this.

In a game where we try to get everything exactly the same shot after shot, I am happy to weigh each charge.

Brendan Atkinson
In South Australia

mike in co
06-11-2015, 09:42 PM
OMG.. A BENCH REST SHOOTER SAID THAT....
careful bj, you may get banned.

(thanks!)

I have followed this thread with interest, as for years I have been telling people that N133 does NOT throw consistent charges from any of the powder measures that I have seen - including some well constructed custom jobs.
I have used a Chargemaster for quite some time now for this reason, and yes I do check the charge with an Acculab scales from time to time.

As a matter of interest, when we shot in the WBC in South Africa, we had to use the local powder (SomChem), and it was a real bugger to throw accurately. My team weighed every charge, and found some alarming variations.

Other powders such as the Australian 8202 throw beautifully, almost like WW 748, but I believe that the kernel size of the powder might have something to do with this.

In a game where we try to get everything exactly the same shot after shot, I am happy to weigh each charge.

Brendan Atkinson
In South Australia

Hunter
12-01-2016, 02:48 PM
If you can consistently throw 20 charges in which 90 percent of them are within plus or minus .1 grains, you're doing great and need not worry about whether or not you're 'leaving anything on the table' in short-range BR. :D

Once in a while, maybe one out of twenty, you will throw a charge that is .3 grains high or low. :mad: Don't worry 'bout it! If your rifle is properly tuned and shooting, it will ignore, due to positive compensation, an extreme spread of as much as 40 fps.



A finely tuned, winning, Group BR rifle will put them all through a little hole, even with the variation you quoted. Matter of fact, quite a bit more variation will still shoot dots in a great rifle. A few years back, I found a bullet/barrel/powder/seating depth combo that would shoot 29.2, 29.5, 29.8, 30.1, and 30.4 grains of 133, all through the same hole.

I'm confused! Many good shooters "throw and go" -- others want to weigh each load. Regarding Gene's statement above, what about when two of the 10-percenters create a .6 grain spread from the others? Also, I've read about many folks doing ladder testing in .3 grain increments. What's accomplished with such testing if your loads have a reasonable likelihood of a built-in error of +/- .3 grain, or, as Hal suggests, bullets will go in the same hole with a rather large spread? Also, I've read Gene's comments about "we can't be more than .6 grains in either direction out to tune!" What that says to me is that +/-.3 grains can represent the difference between in-tune and not in-tune -- which seems inconsistent with his statement above.

So, the question (assuming a good barrel and a good shooter): How much spread in ALL of the charges is acceptable to have confidence in your load?

Butch Lambert
12-01-2016, 04:17 PM
I'm confused! Many good shooters "throw and go" -- others want to weigh each load. Regarding Gene's statement above, what about when two of the 10-percenters create a .6 grain spread from the others? Also, I've read about many folks doing ladder testing in .3 grain increments. What's accomplished with such testing if your loads have a reasonable likelihood of a built-in error of +/- .3 grain, or, as Hal suggests, bullets will go in the same hole with a rather large spread? Also, I've read Gene's comments about "we can't be more than .6 grains in either direction out to tune!" What that says to me is that +/-.3 grains can represent the difference between in-tune and not in-tune -- which seems inconsistent with his statement above.

So, the question (assuming a good barrel and a good shooter): How much spread in ALL of the charges is acceptable to have confidence in your load?

You might want to listen to mickie in co. You may also ask him how many registered matches he has competed in and his results.

alinwa
12-01-2016, 04:59 PM
I'm confused! Many good shooters "throw and go" -- others want to weigh each load. Regarding Gene's statement above, what about when two of the 10-percenters create a .6 grain spread from the others? Also, I've read about many folks doing ladder testing in .3 grain increments. What's accomplished with such testing if your loads have a reasonable likelihood of a built-in error of +/- .3 grain, or, as Hal suggests, bullets will go in the same hole with a rather large spread? Also, I've read Gene's comments about "we can't be more than .6 grains in either direction out to tune!" What that says to me is that +/-.3 grains can represent the difference between in-tune and not in-tune -- which seems inconsistent with his statement above.

So, the question (assuming a good barrel and a good shooter): How much spread in ALL of the charges is acceptable to have confidence in your load?

You need to refine your question.....a lot. As it's stands it's not answerable on any clear terms.



With ANY factory rifle on the planet, this whole discussion is wasted.
With any short-range BR rifle capable of winning, this discussion is wasted
With ANY 1000yd rifle capable of winning, if you're not lissenin' you're losin'

At 600yd BR the jury's still out whether or not compensatory tuning is effective.....and without a deep understanding of compensatory tuning (read Gene Begg's, again. And again) this discussion is wasted......

In short, this entire issue of weighing charges is only relevant to that tiny percentage of shooters on this planet who WIN SCOPED BR MATCHES at ranges beyond 500yds....

That's scoped Bench Rest Matches. Nobody else can even see the difference, unless you're a girl. Maiden name Gallagher....

That doesn't change the fact that since I KNOW the results I will weigh anything from hunting to target, open sights or optics for long range. Since I KNOW that I can and do get single digit ES with weighed charges and I KNOW that I cannot get under 40fps ES with thrown charges, I choose to weigh a lot of loads. I weigh individual charges on hunting loads for the comfort of knowing that I can shoot a water table at any yardage.

But for 6PPC's and 30BR's shooting 100-200yds it's irrelevant.

And for normal people who don't know a water table from an end table, people who talk in "moa" and three-shot "groups"......it don't mean squat.

CMaier
12-01-2016, 05:24 PM
hunter clear your inbox

Andy Cross
12-01-2016, 05:47 PM
I am back to throwing charges.

In my 30BR, the best scores I have shot were with thrown charges of 4198 out of my old, (1996), Bruno measure.

I use a Hensler in my 6PPC with 133. I have meticulously weighed each charge, and simply thrown them. I cannot tell the difference either on the target or over my Chronograph.

I have a Chargemaster. I have sat down with it in my office, weighed charges, and then checked them on my Denver Electronics TP153 Scale, which is very accurate. Guess what. If you throw 20 charges, the variation can be as much as .4 out of the Chargemaster. The resolution on their system is really not that accurate.

I also have a Lyman Electronic Range scale that does no better. You can put a case on it, zero it, Throw a charge and add powder as needed to get it exact, and it has about the same tolerance as the Chargemaster.

Unless you have a scale that has the resolution of this Denver unit, you are probably wasting a lot of time weighing charges.

First up I will quote a friend of mine who also comes from a science background. There are so many variables in the BR game and each one with it's own sub-system it's a miracle it works at all let alone as well as it does.
I too checked the RCBS and my Lyman against lab certified scales and came to the same conclusion. Consequently I throw charges at the range. Taking all the paraphernalia to use the electronics ain't worth the hassle.
Does this amount of charge variation matter. On it's own probably not. But variables tend to compound on one another in a manner where 1+1 begins equalling 3. They rarely null one another. For the time being I will reduce the number of variables where practical and put more time into reading those flags.

Wilbur
12-02-2016, 12:24 AM
I watched Hunter load at a club match and he had his scale set up where the wind wouldn't affect it. I mentioned that he didn't have to weigh powder but he was doing that and getting the targets after each match as well...and still had time to load and be ready for the next go round. Hard to make an argument under those circumstances.....

Here's the deal...Hunter is probably going to weigh powder and I'm not. Nobody can convince either of us to change.

Last I knew...Larry Costa was weighing powder. Don't know if he still does but he was weighing powder back yonder when he lost as many as he won. That tells me that it doesn't matter given the huge number of variables involved (Andy said that) but it also tells me that it doesn't hurt anything to weigh powder.

Maybe at the Super Shoot, where the wind is different every time you go to the bench, that time would be better spent watching others shoot but I don't know how folks think...so I wrote "maybe".

Mozella
12-02-2016, 02:43 AM
......... snip...........

And for normal people who don't know a water table from an end table, people who talk in "moa" and three-shot "groups"......it don't mean squat.

Is it possible to confuse a water line with a conga line? :cool:

jackie schmidt
12-02-2016, 07:44 AM
I watched Hunter load at a club match and he had his scale set up where the wind wouldn't affect it. I mentioned that he didn't have to weigh powder but he was doing that and getting the targets after each match as well...and still had time to load and be ready for the next go round. Hard to make an argument under those circumstances.....

Here's the deal...Hunter is probably going to weigh powder and I'm not. Nobody can convince either of us to change.

Last I knew...Larry Costa was weighing powder. Don't know if he still does but he was weighing powder back yonder when he lost as many as he won. That tells me that it doesn't matter given the huge number of variables involved (Andy said that) but it also tells me that it doesn't hurt anything to weigh powder.

Maybe at the Super Shoot, where the wind is different every time you go to the bench, that time would be better spent watching others shoot but I don't know how folks think...so I wrote "maybe".

Larry is also making his own bullets, and doing his own gunsmith work. He is also meticulous on every aspect of this game.

I wish I had his dedication to detail that in many cases separates the really great Competitors from the rest of us.

jim1K
12-02-2016, 07:55 AM
I have watch this thread and i see both sides of the issue. If a short range shooter is happy with throwing charges that is fine but take those same charges and try them at 300 yds. and see why you don't want to throw charges. You will soon see why short range doesn't shoot many 300 yds matches, the same with score the 30 has a hard time at 300. One thing in common maybe thrown charges and some wind added to the mix. Just maybe you will see why long range can hold +- 3" three to ten times as far all charges are preloaded and weighed to .01.. jim

JerrySharrett
12-02-2016, 07:57 AM
I'm confused! Many good shooters "throw and go" --

So, the question (assuming a good barrel and a good shooter): How much spread in ALL of the charges is acceptable to have confidence in your load?

You are going to pay about $300 for a good Culver style measure and you WILL get about +/-0.3 grain variation. You will pay $300 for a Chargemaster and get about +/-0.1 variation. Either one can be a component of a winning setup. I.e. You can live with either.

How does that work? You have to shoot enough to know when you are in the center of a node. If you are then the +/-0.3 isn't going to hurt the tune, BUT, if you are on the high end and the drop goes up 0.3 you are out of tune. If you are on the low end and the drop goes down 0.3 you are out of tune. Think about that!


.

jim1K
12-02-2016, 12:30 PM
So what your saying is the variation in powder throwing is why you need a tuner, widen the node? jim

Boyd Allen
12-02-2016, 01:04 PM
I think that this whole issue has come about because of 133 and the availability of an easy way to use weighed charges when loading at the range, the Chargemaster. Powders that are finer grained throw well enough that I do not think that weighing is required. Friends have told me that one of these in particular, LT32, has much wider nodes than they have experienced with 133, and that combined with being easier to throw to narrow variance would seem to eliminate the need to weigh...except for the experiences of shooters who have found that there are ambient conditions where its performance is exceeded by 133. So there we are, back at the issue of whether one can get away with throwing all charges. As Jerry has said, that may depend on how good you are at staying in the middle of a node, a skill that is probably not universal. Then there is the matter of the characteristics of barrels and rifles, some of which seem to be more forgiving than others. I guess that it comes down to this. If you are happy with the results that you are getting, obviously there is little incentive to change, but if you are still looking for improvement, the cost of buying and then selling a Chargemaster, should you conclude that it is not the answer, is relatively small. The reason that I spent so much time experimenting with out of the box throwing techniques was that I wanted to see what could be accomplished, and I really wanted, if at all possible, to avoid having to lug one more piece of equipment to the range every time that I go shooting. In today's competition world, after I had secured a top level rifle and rest, I am pretty sure that one of the minor expenditures that followed would be a Chargemaster so that I could eliminate one concern, and save that energy for the firing line, and the flags.

jim1K
12-02-2016, 02:45 PM
Lt-32 throws ok but LT-30 is better for me, and 8208 xbr will hold a .1 flows nice. I load on my progressive press for the AR, and i made a stand the bolts down beside the press. I mount a Harrells measure that dumps in by hand as i cycle it. It produced .3 groups at 100 with the 77 MK. A vast improvement over the factory set up....... jim

JerrySharrett
12-02-2016, 02:59 PM
So what your saying is the variation in powder throwing is why you need a tuner, widen the node? jim

A tuner can modify node width on some centerfire barrels. It's according to the barrel and how far it is from its optimum tune. Any given barrel will only shoot its maximum accuracy only if it is in its top condition.

Some gunsmiths and gun maker/shooters take a given new barrel and cut off 1/8" at a time till it shoots its natural best. Problem is, knowing when to quit trimming, you can't put metal back. Generally, you trim till it shoots what you feel is acceptable. For example, shoot a dozen 3 shot groups, at a given trim, and if that 12 group agg is about 0.150" or better under ideal conditions, you probably should stop trimming.

A good example, in rimfire, someone like Bill Calfe may take a given barrel to the range a dozen times, go back to the shop, trim and/or lap, whichever he feels it needs, before he ships it. Example, Armon Pageli (sp) paid $3,000 each for 3 barrels, but they shoot to a winning ability...now then, it will still take great rimfire ammo, top shooter skill, and a great condition for each shot to be the winner.


.

CMaier
12-02-2016, 04:25 PM
jim,
the oem milsurplus 8208 will do less than the 0.1.


Lt-32 throws ok but LT-30 is better for me, and 8208 xbr will hold a .1 flows nice. I load on my progressive press for the AR, and i made a stand the bolts down beside the press. I mount a Harrells measure that dumps in by hand as i cycle it. It produced .3 groups at 100 with the 77 MK. A vast improvement over the factory set up....... jim

alinwa
12-02-2016, 04:26 PM
I have to argue a little bit re throwing "finer grained" powder being better.......

Some things I've found.

First, as regards the ChargeMaster. At one time I was convinced the CM would "throw 4831 the same as 4831SC" and that it would throw ball powder to finer spec than +-.1gr. I Was Wrong. I've tried every known modification to the CM and find that the best and most consistent thing for me is un-modified but that it's still prone to throw some wildly out-of-spec clumps........WORSE and more dangerous than any thrower could possibly do. So my opinion is, "lissen for the ding!!" ........and I use them only to pre-weigh prior to final weighing with a good scale. and that only because I reload in a large environment with throwers and scales and presses all set up on rolling benches and me with a rolling office chair. With the CM running in the background I can load like a dervish, safely. (I'm an 07 FFL)

I would not use a CM at a match.

Second, as regards "finer powder." Some of my presumptions have been proven inaccurate over time. for instance, back to the "4831 VS 4831SC" conundrum. Most folks know that the only reason 4831SC came out was because regular 4831 throws like crap. But does it? Once I began weighing A LOT I found many of my suppositions to be wrong....for instance, I'm currently of the opinion that I can throw 4831 just as well as 4831SC. Slightly different technique, and 4831 crunches like walking on a pile of window panes but it will meter OK, as far as metering goes.

And SMALL powder..... I once had to load 500rds of 270WSM and used a fine ball powder and a Harrell thrower in the interest of speed. I got all set up, pre-everything with trays set out and with about 20 pre-calibrated pre-throws and went through all 500 cases in one continuous robotic run. I ended up having to pull bullets on all the loads and start over. Cost me a bunch of time and I have a big pile of used bullets still bagged up for, something.....


opinionsby


al

jim1K
12-02-2016, 06:21 PM
jim,
the oem milsurplus 8208 will do less than the 0.1.

I don't have any more of it, but for the AR. 8208 XBR is fine if i use it on anything else the GD503 will be used. When i test thrown charges it is on the the GD 503. 133 is bad as is LT32..... jim

JerrySharrett
12-02-2016, 07:03 PM
Al, your "listen or the ding" is very important. The Chargemasters display shows the progress of that dump. Then it stops, displays the drop number, THEN it shows the final reading after rereading its load pack reading several times. That FINAL display of weight is what is important. On that machine, recalibrate often. After several usages it will be very close.

I've used the RCBS 1500 since they came out, about 2005. I take 2 on the road and one stays on my loading table. These 3 all weigh very close. At worst they will be off 0.5 tenth of a grain since the roundoff of the display is 0.09. I. E. 1/100 of a grain below displays the lower nomber, as 1/100 grain above displays the next number above.

The CM 1500 will operate from 8 VDC to 15 VDC. Running off a battery eliminator set on 15 VDC works slightly best.

One other note, if you use the 1500 outdoors and during the day the temp goes from 40f to 80f the reading does change. In this example, recalibrating every few degrees helps. After all a load pack is not a balance, it is an electronic component.
.




.

Boyd Allen
12-02-2016, 07:44 PM
Different powders in the same measure are likely to require different techniques, as will the same powder in different measures. I can throw LT 32 and LT 30 +-.1 gr without much difficulty. In the past when I read articles about powder throwing results that described results and techniques, I believed them....and went looking elsewhere, technique wise to improve my results over what they had gotten. After much trial and error, I learned a lot and WAS able to do better.

jim1K
12-02-2016, 08:01 PM
Al, your "listen or the ding" is very important. The Chargemasters display shows the progress of that dump. Then it stops, displays the drop number, THEN it shows the final reading after rereading its load pack reading several times. That FINAL display of weight is what is important. On that machine, recalibrate often. After several usages it will be very close.

I've used the RCBS 1500 since they came out, about 2005. I take 2 on the road and one stays on my loading table. These 3 all weigh very close. At worse they will be off 0.5 grain since the roundoff of the display is 0.09. I. E. 1/100 of a grain below displays the lower nomber, as 1/100 grain above displays the next number above.

The CM 1500 will operate from 8 VDC to 15 VDC. Running off a battery eliminator set on 15 VDC works slightly best.

One other note, if you use the 1500 outdoors and during the day the temp goes from 40f to 80f the reading does change. In this example, recalibrating every few degrees helps. After all a load pack is not a balance, it is an electronic component.
.




.


Jerry, What do you check your results on the 1500 with? or do you rely on the scale on it?...... jim

jim1K
12-02-2016, 08:06 PM
Different powders in the same measure are likely to require different techniques, as will the same powder in different measures. I can throw LT 32 and LT 30 +-.1 gr without much difficulty. In the past when I read articles about powder throwing results that described results and techniques, I believed them....and went looking elsewhere, technique wise to improve my results over what they had gotten. After much trial and error, I learned a lot and WAS able to do better.



You are right, i tried till i changed the burning rate of the powder.... lol, that is why i believe in a good scale. jim

Boyd Allen
12-02-2016, 08:23 PM
No kidding. I worked with a scrap of 133 until it became distinct from all of the rest from being run through the measure so many times. I would never tell anyone that getting good with a powder measure is easy to do. Most do not have the patience, and many do not have the ability to evaluate what they are seeing and modify their procedure as needed. A key part of my program was that TV was (and is) mostly boring, and undeserving of ones full attention. I never argue against someone using a Chargemaster for short range BR.

A friend has a pretty good alternative for 133. He has a good .1 gr scale that he takes to the range. He can hit +- .1 most but not all of the time. He throws into a scale pan, weighs the pan of powder, and if is is within tolerances he dumps the charge into the funnel. For those few that are not, they go back into the hopper. At the beginning I showed him what I do for my measure. He did a baffle modificaton (I don't use one.) and worked up a variant technique that worked best for his setup, and then threw in a quick weight check as a backup. Later when he started working with the LTs he saw that the scale was unnecessary for those powders.

JerrySharrett
12-03-2016, 06:01 AM
Jerry, What do you check your results on the 1500 with? or do you rely on the scale on it?...... jim

I have an older RCBS Model 90. In its day it was highly recognized. Sold for $400. I also recheck with two different balance scales, forgot their numbers but one is RCBS and one Ohaus. They are balance scales, which, unlike electronic scales do not get out of calibration unless earths gravity field goes down.


.

jim1K
12-03-2016, 07:51 AM
When i left short range a long time ago i figured i had a handle on things but i sure did get a rude awaking. I had a very good Harrell's measure and a 10-10 beam scale. My groups at long range were never were consistent, blamed it on conditions. I invested in a tuned scale and used the measure a weighed every charge, groups were more consistent. Started to measure bullets and weed out the bad ones and invest in a seating pressure gauge. then i found i needed to anneal to get uniformity and groups got smaller and more consistent. Then i bit the bullet and got a GD503 balance and it was the piece of the puzzle i should have had first. It doesn't wonder, i can hold +-.01 with RL-15, closer with LT 30....... jim

Lee Martin
12-03-2016, 10:31 AM
I shoot LT-32 and throw. When I started out with the powder, I weighed a few hundred charges in test from my 30 year old Culver measure. Had no trouble staying within +/- 0.1 grs (and even a hair less than 0.2 total spread. Measured on a GemPro 250). Since I only shoot short-range, I exclusively throw. Now at 300 yards and beyond the scale would come out.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

jackie schmidt
12-03-2016, 11:34 AM
One thing that seems to be lost in this discussion isn't wheather weighing charges is better than throwing, or visa-versa. The real question is whether weighing is better at Matches, where the real challenge comes in to play. Stable surface, wind, and time add to the difficulties in the use of a scale on a loading table.

I have a little red Honady range scale that while being convenient, is really not very accurate. You weigh a case and zero the scale, throw the charge, it reads 30.0. ( looking for 30.3), you then add powder place the case back on the scale, and it reads 29.9. Go figure.

I just bought a new RCBS ChargeMaster. The old one I had from their first year of production left something to be desired. This new one will throw +- .1 as checked against my Denver Electronics Scale.

I took it to Walker County last Sunday to check out my 6BR at 400 yards. With the power source I rigged up, it worked great. I see no problem loading at the range.

My power source is a car battery. My truck, a Chevy, has a battery mount for a second battery, so I bought one and ran cables in parallel with the regular battery, so it all acts like one big battery. That way it is always charged. I Have a small inverter to change the 12 volts to 110 AC. And extension cord runs to my loading table. I can easily take the battery out if I am at a range where I can't park my truck close enough. The car battery, I figure, has enough stored energy to last all day. At the end of the day, stick it back in the truck, let it recharge.

This is, of course, a lot more hassle than just throwing charges, but at ranges out past 300 yards, I am pretty well convinced that weighing each charge will be the better option.

With my 30BR, I have hundreds of cases, because the things never seem to wear out. I can Pre-Load for a Grand Agg in the comforts of my living room in a couple of hours.

Hunter
12-03-2016, 02:42 PM
I threw 36 sets (10 "record" throws per set) with a Culver-style thrower with the clicker set at 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, & 55 (6 sets per click number) and weighed each throw (except for several that I dumped back in the hopper because the "crunch" seemed too much) -- here are the results, showing the total spread (rounded to the nearest tenth of a grain) per set and the number of sets that achieved that spread:

.1 = 0
.2 = 4
.3 = 11
.4 = 5
.5 = 3
.6 = 3
.7 = 3
.8 = 3
.9= 0
1.0 = 3
1.4 = 1

To summarize, 13 sets (36% of all sets) had a spread of .6 or more -- based on that, I'd be afraid to "throw and go" with 133.

Butch Lambert
12-03-2016, 03:00 PM
I threw 36 sets (10 "record" throws per set) with a Culver-style thrower with the clicker set at 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, & 55 (6 sets per click number) and weighed each throw (except for several that I dumped back in the hopper because the "crunch" seemed too much) -- here are the results, showing the total spread (rounded to the nearest tenth of a grain) per set and the number of sets that achieved that spread:

.1 = 0
.2 = 4
.3 = 11
.4 = 5
.5 = 3
.6 = 3
.7 = 3
.8 = 3
.9= 0
1.0 = 3
1.4 = 1

To summarize, 13 sets (36% of all sets) had a spread of .6 or more -- based on that, I'd be afraid to "throw and go" with 133.


Some folks technique is better than others I suppose.

jim1K
12-03-2016, 04:51 PM
Or some folks scale is more accurate than others or all of the above. I thought i had a good RCBS electronic scale till i got the GD 503. Now the RCBS scale is regulated down to weighing Devcon ........ jim

r44astro
12-03-2016, 05:20 PM
Only my opinion. If you have a competitive barrel and set up. It does not matter whether you throw or measure, if you do not have competitive barrel it still does not matter whether you throw or measure. With one you place the other you are last. I know from experience.
Trout

Dave Dowd
12-03-2016, 07:38 PM
No kidding. I worked with a scrap of 133 until it became distinct from all of the rest from being run through the measure so many times. I would never tell anyone that getting good with a powder measure is easy to do. Most do not have the patience, and many do not have the ability to evaluate what they are seeing and modify their procedure as needed. A key part of my program was that TV was (and is) mostly boring, and undeserving of ones full attention. I never argue against someone using a Chargemaster for short range BR.

A friend has a pretty good alternative for 133. He has a good .1 gr scale that he takes to the range. He can hit +- .1 most but not all of the time. He throws into a scale pan, weighs the pan of powder, and if is is within tolerances he dumps the charge into the funnel. For those few that are not, they go back into the hopper. At the beginning I showed him what I do for my measure. He did a baffle modificaton (I don't use one.) and worked up a variant technique that worked best for his setup, and then threw in a quick weight check as a backup. Later when he started working with the LTs he saw that the scale was unnecessary for those powders.

Don't know if it makes any difference on the targets. But I will wager to anybody $100 that over a grand aggregate (50 charges) thrown with 133 that they will vary at least two tenths. Dave ( Probably vary .3 or even.4)

Hunter
12-03-2016, 07:45 PM
Or some folks scale is more accurate than others....U thought i had a good RCBS electronic scale till i got the GD 503. Now the RCBS scale is regulated down to weighing Devcon.

Are you suggesting that my $20 digital scale might be the problem? But, I saw Billy and Bart using the same scale a match. :confused:

Boyd Allen
12-03-2016, 08:07 PM
I decided to test myself and do a little practicing first, since it had been a while since I have played with this particular chore. At first I was using s moderately priced digital scale, that reads to .01 gr. Even though I was hitting the tare button often and checking with the empty pan often, I was seeing more of a variance in the negative weight of the pan when I took it off of the scale....so I got out my self tuned 10-10 and the prism, a combination that I trust to .05. I roll the fine poise to zero the scale exactly and then read the result, so I am not estimating by deflection. After that, going back to my oldest technique for 133, I ran 10 straight. They were:
30.10
30.10
30.15
30.10
30.00
30.10
30.15
30.00
30.00
29.95 As you can see, I was right at +-.1gr This is the second time that the electronic scale has shown itself to be inconsistent, even though it returned to zero with an empty pan, there was unacceptable variation of the minus number when it was removed. This is what eventually tipped me off. Perhaps I should have let it warm up longer, but the last time I did. In any case, on this technique, I ran across it when making a last ditch effort to avoid having to buy, and lug a Chargemaster. It is nothing like anything that I have read anywhere. To do this right, I have to warm up to get my technique "in the goove" and pay strict attention to how I am operating the measure. I have the smaller of the Harrells Deluxe measures, that takes 500 ml bottles, and have removed the baffle.The powder was 2005 133. The one useful thing that I learned from this is to put the electronic scale back on the shelf and leave it there when doing serious work.

Tim Singleton
12-03-2016, 08:36 PM
Most guys with the little $20.00 pocket digital scale at a match are only spot checking the weight of powder thrown as the days temp changes. Most aren't trying to use them to precisely weigh each charge

CMaier
12-03-2016, 08:42 PM
i do not think you will ever know if you have a competitive rifle with n133 if you are throwing at .6 spread.


Only my opinion. If you have a competitive barrel and set up. It does not matter whether you throw or measure, if you do not have competitive barrel it still does not matter whether you throw or measure. With one you place the other you are last. I know from experience.
Trout

Boyd Allen
12-03-2016, 09:12 PM
Note correction previous post....+-.1 gr. (I was thinking spread)

Hunter
12-03-2016, 09:54 PM
Boyd, your post # 73 motivated me to try my beam scale to check my throwing test; this time the results were much better. I threw four sets (ten record throws per set) of 133 with the clicker set at 50, 51, 53, & 55. The results were:

.1 gr spread >> once
.2 gr spread >> twice
.4 gr spread >> once

As for my $20 digital scale, maybe I'll replace the 2+ year old batteries and try again. :D

Well, I checked my digital scale with the calibration weight and the scale is not the problem. I then threw 12 more "sets" and the results were worse than shown in post # 68 (i.e., 5/12 had a spread of .6 or more) -- and one of them had a spread of 2.5. I also compared the larger spreads, as shown on the digital scale, with my beam scale -- again, the digital scale is not the problem.

Boyd Allen
12-03-2016, 11:00 PM
I think that we can get rid of that .4.

JerrySharrett
12-04-2016, 06:48 AM
I've used the RCBS 1500 since they came out, about 2005. I take 2 on the road and one stays on my loading table. These 3 all weigh very close. At worse they will be off 0.5 grain since the roundoff of the display is 0.09. I. E. 1/100 of a grain below displays the lower nomber, as 1/100 grain above displays the next number above.
.

.


Correction, the above "worse they will be off 0.5 grain " should have been 'worst they will be off 0.5 tenth of a grain'


.

jim1K
12-04-2016, 07:57 AM
What I'm saying is check your measure and scale against a good balance. Other wise you are guessing...... jim

CMaier
12-04-2016, 07:11 PM
one simple step in throwing charges is to throw from the same fill/height
in the reservoir. mark a high and low that is maybe 10 or 20 throws in volume,
and always throw from in that band. where the band is is not a big deal,
but being in the band is,

alinwa
12-05-2016, 12:50 AM
one simple step in throwing charges is to throw from the same fill/height
in the reservoir. mark a high and low that is maybe 10 or 20 throws in volume,
and always throw from in that band. where the band is is not a big deal,
but being in the band is,

Isn't this the specific function of and reason for a baffle of some sort?

Just to be clear, I've 7 different powder storage units including an adapter for an 8lb jug.......baffled, unbaffled, ho'made baffles, even one which feeds thru a hose.....

Boyd Allen
12-05-2016, 04:32 AM
When I first got my Harrell's measure, I compared with and without the baffle, without won. The baffle has been in the drawer since. I also keep to a relatively narrow band of bottle fill, a range of about an inch and a quarter or so, starting about an inch and a half or so above the metal, with the bottle (500 ml.) installed in the measure. I stumbled across this quite by accident. IMO the stock baffle is too low, and limited to that position by the use of a screw in bottle. I put tape on the bottle that is on the measure to define the range, and keep another identical bottle in my range kit to make additions as needed. My theory on this is that with too little down pressure on the powder chamber fill becomes inconsistent, and with too much powder column depth the mouth of the bottle starts to act like a restriction which with granular material causes slight inconsistency. The theory doesn't really matter. I have found what works best by testing. This would be for my measure, and one powder. It may be that for other combinations that this would be different.

Another thing, I will take an older, uglied up bottle or plexiglass reservoir over a new one every time, the old grunge seems to bleed off static charge. One time I got lucky and was able to acquire a virtually brand new SAECO measure. Excited, I tested it and it did not do as well as my older one with a discolored reservoir. Thinking about that for a minute, I switched the old one to the new measure, and that solved the problem.

While we are at it, thanks to the aid of Rick Graham I was able to buy Wally Siebert's old SAECO measure that came with a plexiglass threaded adapter for threads that are about like those for a MEC shotgun loader bottle. I did a test with the smaller necked bottle against a stock plexiglass reservoir, (same diameter and threads as an old Lyman or Hollywood) and the stock reservoir worked better. The adapter came off of the measure, and sits in the drawer with my 10-10 scale. The other features of that measure were a micrometer conversion similar to what Seeley Masker used to sell , and the bottom of the casting was turned and threaded 7/8-14.

SAECOs Micro-measures have some of the very best internal geometries, but all measures require experimentation with technique to produce the best results. Even so, When loading at the range, I look over the powder levels in the set of cases that I am working with and rethrow any that look slightly different than the rest. Sometimes, if a slow drop is being used to allow for more powder in cases, differences in drop speed can cause the difference in fill height. As yet I have not chronographed to see if differences of powder compression of the same charge, due to differences in drop speed show up as differences in velocity. I can get to where I need to be, for consistency of charge weight for short range applications, with my Harrell, and its features (bottle adapter, charge volume setting system, built in clamp, and drop tube setup) make it worth the slight additional effort, in technique. I keep powder specific technique notes in my measure bag.

CMaier
12-05-2016, 08:21 AM
al,
i think, ya know , my opinion, is that is is similar to
NPSH for pump.( net positive suction head)
it controls how well the pump works.
it is what feeds the input, in our case the adjustable powder chamber.
kinda sorta


Isn't this the specific function of and reason for a baffle of some sort?

Just to be clear, I've 7 different powder storage units including an adapter for an 8lb jug.......baffled, unbaffled, ho'made baffles, even one which feeds thru a hose.....

K Hope
12-05-2016, 06:46 PM
al,
i think, ya know , my opinion, is that is is similar to
NPSH for pump.( net positive suction head)
it controls how well the pump works.
it is what feeds the input, in our case the adjustable powder chamber.
kinda sorta

I am not seeing your Ė kinda sorta Ė similarity; how is a phase reaction of a liquid similar to the flowability of a powder?

Ken

CMaier
12-05-2016, 09:32 PM
not a phase reaction as in cavitation, but simply supplying a constant feed,
which results in a more uniform output.


I am not seeing your Ė kinda sorta Ė similarity; how is a phase reaction of a liquid similar to the flowability of a powder?

Ken