PDA

View Full Version : Rifle Accuracy Systems tuner / muzzle brake experience



Andrew B
04-27-2015, 12:30 PM
This will sound like an ad, but I had a really positive experience.

I've read a lot about tuners on rifles improving group size and making it easier to tune load and have been curious (skeptical) about that. I read about the Rifle Accuracy Systems tuner & muzzle brake combo. I build heavy rifles (about 20 pounds) and I use muzzle breaks to help reduce recoil so that I'm able to spot hits in prairie dog towns. This combo sounded pretty interesting and frankly, not much of a risk since at $170, not much more than just a muzzle brake.

I just had a 22 250 built with a 1.25 30 inch Krieger barrel on a BAT action and Shehane tracker stock in 8 twist with a RAS tuner/muzzle brake combo installed. I shot it for the first time April 26 using a load to start with that has been successful in other 22 250s. At 200 yards I was getting a 1.25 inch group, far from acceptable for shooting at prairie dogs. Normally I would start working with length and powder charge to tune the load.

I had the tuner screwed all the way in. I followed the directions and turned the tuner slightly twice. At 200 yards I went from shooting 1.25 to a nice cloverleaf group. Like magic. Saved me a ton of time, effort and yielded good results.

I just ordered 4 more of these tuners to retrofit other rifles with. My experience so far with this is that it dramatically cuts load development time and improves results. Could not be more pleased. Spoke to Derek Bostrum about them. Nice fellow to do business with.

YMMV, but I am sold.

Dusty Stevens
04-27-2015, 12:41 PM
So you shrunk a group over 1" by twisting a tuner?

Andrew B
04-27-2015, 03:51 PM
Just to set bonafides, I am a retired benchrest competitor. I know something about rifles,shooting and reloading.

Yes. At 200 yards. Shot over wind flags on a calm day.

I was literally amazed that it had that much impact. I was extremely skeptical about them until I tried it. Thought they were flavor of the day.

CMaier
04-27-2015, 03:52 PM
at 200 yds....


So you shrunk a group over 1" by twisting a tuner?

Butch Lambert
04-27-2015, 07:15 PM
Post a photo with 5-5shot groups shot on the same piece of target paper.

Harold M
04-28-2015, 08:37 AM
Just a thought - if the tuner was returned to the original position, would the large groups return?

Harold

mwezell
04-28-2015, 09:10 AM
Just a thought - if the tuner was returned to the original position, would the large groups return?

Harold

Yes. That's exactly what would and does happen. They're repeatable and consistent, be it good or bad. But why tune to shoot bad?
The biggest variable is temperature, which changes tune somewhat...just like it does without a tuner. But, IME, a tuner can make a gun shoot worse than simply varying powder charge or seating depth does.

The only people that consider tuners a "fad" are the ones that don't have one.

JEFFPPC
04-28-2015, 11:09 AM
I have been using tuners for several years. I hope no other benchrest shooters fall to the false hope of tuners. They have made me totally non competative. The replies I have seen from many shooters on tuner threads are right on. They do no good-more harm than anything. Being a hard headed sort of guy (according to my wife), I will continue to use my tuners but I hope no fellow shooters fall to their evils. Keep doing it they old way, that is of course, the way to go. I hope in the future the only tuner at a match is on my rifle and non of my fellow competitors have the burden that I suffer through with a tuner.

B.Larson
04-28-2015, 11:15 AM
Do some tuners work better than others......?????

John S
04-28-2015, 11:45 AM
Can not find the manufactures Web page.

Help please.

Boyd Allen
04-28-2015, 11:56 AM
http://www.bostromgunsmithing.com/index.htm#Page_ImprovedRifleAccuracy

mwezell
04-28-2015, 12:05 PM
Do some tuners work better than others......?????

They all work on the same principle. That's not to say that some may be better than others, though. Sort through the chafe and pick the one that you like best..and learn to make it work for you. One thing is for sure, while tuners are a controversial subject, most everyone will agree that they're much easier to use than to understand.

Here's a pic of the cf tuner I offer and a link to read more about them. The pic is old and the new model has numbered graduations.
http://www.ezellcustomrifles.com/home-3/pdt-tuners/


http://www.ezellcustomrifles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tuner1.jpg

jackie schmidt
04-28-2015, 02:06 PM
I guess my question would be how you get a custom barreled/custom action/custom stocked 22-250 to shoot that bad to begin with.?

And, for something that is not meant to be a "ThreAd", this is sure getting awfully close.

sdean
04-28-2015, 02:15 PM
Do some tuners work better than others......?????

They are not made the same. The adjustable part on the Bostrum tuner rides on rubber O rings. Holds it in place without set screws or other ways. Some other tuners make use of rubber in various ways. I like the idea. I have no proof if it helps or hurts anything.

jackpinewizard
04-28-2015, 04:02 PM
Andrew,
Welcome to growing number of shooters discovering the advantages of a good tuner system. Harold Vaughn in his book "Rifle Accuracy Facts" states that "barrel vibration is one of the largest contributors to rifle inaccuracy". The tuner system is the easiest way to manage those vibrations. The RAS family of tuners was the first to incorporate the muzzle brake with a tuning system. Recently Al Simpler matched the NRA National F class 1,000 yard record with a 200/15X and set the record for the Senior division using the RAS system.
What you have experience in your rifle is typical for those who have mastered the use of the tuner system. There is no magic, just patient work. All barrels vibrate in a radial direction about a nodal (bending) pint near the front of the barrel. Accuracy is determined by this distance from the muzzle and when the bullet leaves the muzzle. The barrel moves in one direction and then stops and moves in the another direction. The trick is to tune the barrel so that the bullet leaves the muzzle at the point when the barrel has stopped to change direction. To do this right one must make very small changes to the tuning ring (TR) to find that point. Most problems come from moving the TR to far or not having all the components of the system tight. As the TR is moved, using 2 shot groups, you will see the groups get larger and then smaller and then larger again. We call the smaller groups "sweet spots". A little work around a good "sweet spots" will produce outstanding accuracy. The only time this doesn't work is if the rifle is shooting such small groups you cannot measure the improvement. If you pick the wrong setting you will just make the rifle shoot worse than without the tuner. I would refer you to the June 2012 Precision Shooting magazine to article "Improved Rifle Accuracy" for a lot of background on this.
Mike Ezell is right on. Once a rifle and load is tuned it only takes small adjustments to keep it in tune. This assumes you take the time to experiment with changing with the conditions before the match.
We have taken over 3 dozen prairie dogs over a 1,000 yards with the RAS system, the longest was 1,260 yards. If you would like a copy of the article e-mail me and I will send you one.
Recently I was testing the new RAS-AR150 Mk III system in a 16" AR15. In five 2 shoot groups at 100 yards four of the groups were between .076-.197 unfortunately the fifth was .800 . The baseline without the tuner was .962

Dusty Stevens
04-28-2015, 08:23 PM
One of these days im gonna try one of ezell's tuners. Sure do like the idea of particle dampening being an engineer

mwezell
04-28-2015, 08:48 PM
One of these days im gonna try one of ezell's tuners. Sure do like the idea of particle dampening being an engineer

Thanks Dusty! I just see it as a better mousetrap, but as I said before...all tuners work on the same principle, for the most part. I do feel like the particle dampening is a step in the right direction to better vibration management, as well as it's attachment vs. some. Research does show it to be better than simply using a solid mass and a slightly wider tune window. If I didn't think it to be worth it, I'd certainly not go to the added trouble and cost of machining them for it...not to mention the cost of tungsten powder:eek:. Again, testing shows it to be the best media I can find for this purpose, in this application. It's a good tuner. You'll be happy with one, I firmly believe. The sooner you start using some kind of tuner...the sooner you start kicking yourself for waiting so long.--Mike

Harold M
04-28-2015, 09:53 PM
One of these days im gonna try one of ezell's tuners. Sure do like the idea of particle dampening being an engineer

I think the paper described a damper that weighed 3 times what the beam weighed, if I read that correctly. Also, the system was reduced to one degree of freedom, so only the first (fundamental) mode was considered. Damping has to be pretty profound to affect the amplitude in the few cycles between ignition and when the bullet leaves.

Harold

Mozella
04-28-2015, 10:02 PM
One of these days im gonna try one of ezell's tuners. Sure do like the idea of particle dampening being an engineer

Sounds like you might be a hydraulics engineer, perhaps a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers waterways engineer or something like that. Let us know now dampening the particles in your tuner works.

Me..........I want nothing to do with getting my tuner wet. It works just fine dry, but if you think making yours moist is a good idea, go right ahead and dampen it. :D

Meanwhile I'll concentrate on damping and controlling barrel vibrations in my never ending quest for improved accuracy.

Mike Bryant
04-28-2015, 10:42 PM
I've been using Jackie's design for his tuner for the past several years. His design that he was gracious enough to share with us on this web site. What I am using is a little smaller than what he made, but it uses the same Johnson marine bearing as his did. 3.5 ounces is what it weighs, his was a little more weight. I've been using it the same way Gene Bukys does with his, set it once and leave it alone. Of course, I haven't had the success that Gene has, but most of us haven't. A tuner will work, it will take bullets from not shooting to dotting up just by turning the tuner. I have yet to turn a tuner a full turn, it just doesn't take much movement of the tuner to get the results that you want.

Dusty Stevens
04-28-2015, 11:02 PM
Sounds like you might be a hydraulics engineer, perhaps a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers waterways engineer or something like that. Let us know now dampening the particles in your tuner works.

Me..........I want nothing to do with getting my tuner wet. It works just fine dry, but if you think making yours moist is a good idea, go right ahead and dampen it. :D

Meanwhile I'll concentrate on damping and controlling barrel vibrations in my never ending quest for improved accuracy.

It uses tungsten powder and works very well. Nothing wet about it. Been using mercury to balance id and fd fans in power plants for years. Theyre just 10,000hp tho

rooshooter
04-29-2015, 08:53 AM
I have tuners on 7 of my barrels (R.A.S, PDT, Shade tree and Davies tuners) and my new gun being built will also have a PDT tuner fitted. It is likely that some of my other low round count barrels will also have a tuner fitted at some stage. Most of my barrels are for F class, but the braked one is for 1000yd Light gun.
Back to the R.A.S tuner/brake, I had one of these put on my 284 Shehane Light Gun barrel and if I get any more light gun barrels, they will also get a R.A.S tuner brake. The brake works very effectively, making a 284 Shehane feel like a 6 Dasher to shoot. I did have this brake previously on a 6 Dasher and the recoil was reduced enough that gun did not upset the bags and the joystick did not have to be adjusted between shots, only moving back 1/2" or so in slippery bags. The tuner works as expected and I was able to repeatedly get groups to open up and close back down as it was move to and away from its preferred location. What I like about tuners is that I can go to a match with one lot of ammo and wont have to worry about the load being out of tune if the weather turns exceptionally hotter or colder than expected.

Andrew B
05-01-2015, 03:11 PM
From Jackie:

"I guess my question would be how you get a custom barreled/custom action/custom stocked 22-250 to shoot that bad to begin with.?"

It was easy. I have been able to produce far worse groups as well with only slightly more effort.

:)