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NesikaPPC
04-07-2015, 10:57 PM
I have searched the site and seen different annealing machines. I watched the bench source video, looked at ken light's machine and also giraurd's. I am trying to form my first set of wild cat cartridges and I think annealing the brass will be beneficial. A 450 to 500 machine isn't in the budget right now. Can anyone pass on any advise?

Robert

Dusty Stevens
04-07-2015, 11:33 PM
If you just want to experiment use a socket and drill. The bench source is the way to go. Cant speak for giraud- i hear its good. The light machine works but is a pain and makes a good paperweight. Id say that very very few use them in short range br so seeing one on here besides the gadget guy is a rare sight.

CMaier
04-08-2015, 12:04 AM
do some more research..there is a manual twin bottle set that is just over 125 or so.
do not know the name

ConRich
04-08-2015, 04:17 AM
I have searched the site and seen different annealing machines. I watched the bench source video, looked at ken light's machine and also giraurd's. I am trying to form my first set of wild cat cartridges and I think annealing the brass will be beneficial. A 450 to 500 machine isn't in the budget right now. Can anyone pass on any advise?

Robert

This might work,
http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?54267-75-DIY-Automatic-Case-Annealer-Project-Complete!-Plans-and-parts-list-included!
Dick

JRB
04-08-2015, 07:10 AM
I have been using the bench source with great results,
You can get an improvement in sizing.
For high volume shooters well worth it

zimmden
04-08-2015, 07:37 AM
Check out The Woodchuck Den. Todd lists an annealing tip that uses a 16 oz propane bottle for $51. I made several duplicates for less than $10 each. With a little practice they work very well.

John S
04-08-2015, 10:27 AM
I have and use the one sold by The Woodchuck Den.

It is a copper loop with small holes. When lit place the ring of fire over the case neck/shoulder of a case standing in a pan of water. When time is up, knock case over into the water. I have about 20 cases in a shallow pan setting on top of the stove in the kitchen. When the 20 are done set on towel and start the next batch.

Works great.

I use a timer to get the same affect on each case.

Asa Yam
04-08-2015, 11:22 AM
This might work,
http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?54267-75-DIY-Automatic-Case-Annealer-Project-Complete!-Plans-and-parts-list-included!
Looks like a DIY version of a Giraud. Thanks for the heads-up. :D

jkl
04-08-2015, 02:11 PM
Google Skips V6 annealer. All the parts are listed and it does a great job.

Greyfox
04-09-2015, 09:13 AM
Having used the socket method as well as having owned a Ken Light and now a Giraud annealer, I'd have to say I'm very skeptical that a person can get a consistent annealing job done with anything other than a machine. Sure, you can anneal brass with a torch and a wooden skewer like Varmint Al relates. But to get brass the same temp for the same time, I don't believe it's doable. I suspect that is why many people find that the first firing after annealing doesn't produce consistent brass. Also, while we're talking about annealing, there is no value in putting cases in water. All it does is get them wet. Annealing stops the instant you remove the heat and if you get a case neck hot enough to damage the base, you've gone far past the point of no return anyway. And FWIW- the color one gets has nothing to do with temp. A dirty or tarnished case won't show blue. A clean shiny case usually will, but not necessarily at the temp you want. The one that wears me out is the wet brain that thinks he can hold the case in his fingers and drop it in water when it reaches the correct temp.....give me a break.

Rick

GerryM
04-09-2015, 12:00 PM
A lead pot work,s well . If you do any casting for handguns etc try dipping your case in the lead pot while holding it on Pliers.
Its an old proven way written about in older magazines, and reloading books.

idaho bruce
04-09-2015, 02:25 PM
I was using the electric screwdriver and socket affair just to find out if this annealing thing works. It does work but it was a mickey mouse set-up and like others have said it is hard to tell whether the heat you want is the heat you get (time in the torch flame and distance from the flame) is critical. Between my brother and I we had approx. 2800 used cases setting on a shelf setting in the shop that I decided to anneal. We bought a Ken Lite (sp) machine and I annealed all that brass in a 3 hour time frame. That does not include sorting and cleaning the brass. Getting the machine set up was a little tricky but once the set-up complete it worked as advertised.
Bruce

ConRich
04-09-2015, 03:33 PM
A lead pot work,s well . If you do any casting for handguns etc try dipping your case in the lead pot while holding it on Pliers.
Its an old proven way written about in older magazines, and reloading books.

Gerry, how do you keep the lead from sticking to the brass ? I tried that method one time and the lead fused to the brass like it was soldered on.

Thanks,
Dick

NesikaPPC
04-09-2015, 10:34 PM
I appreciate all of the feedback. Am I under the correct impression that if I am working on a wildcat round, and need to significantly increase the size of the neck of the cartridge that annealing the case will make it easier?

Wilbur
04-10-2015, 12:00 AM
I'm sure that annealing would make it easier but how easy do you want. New cases are pretty soft in the neck as is and if you don't want to maintain that "tension" then I don't see a reason to anneal.

GerryM
04-10-2015, 08:34 AM
con rich
due to the absence of flux the lead shouldn't stick.

Greyfox
04-10-2015, 09:10 AM
I appreciate all of the feedback. Am I under the correct impression that if I am working on a wildcat round, and need to significantly increase the size of the neck of the cartridge that annealing the case will make it easier?

If you are starting with new brass, as Wilbur says, you probably don't need to anneal beforehand. But, depending on how much brass you move it might be a good idea to anneal afterward. Several years ago I was making a wildcat that started with a 444 Marlin. I had to neck it down to .284 and move the shoulder back. I got a brain cramp and moved the shoulder back way too much, nearly .250. I attempted to fire form them anyway and lost a couple of cases with splits. Then I annealed the shoulder and fire formed again. The shoulders blew forward and formed perfectly.

If you anneal after doing all the brass work, you can restore the ability to hold tension.

Rick

NesikaPPC
04-11-2015, 10:00 AM
"This might work,
http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...-list-included!
Dick "

Dick,

Thanks for the link. It looks fairly simple from the video. I printed the parts list and may try to build one of these.

Robert

Jefferson
04-11-2015, 12:19 PM
http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/annealing-article.html
Jeff

muley
04-16-2015, 12:15 AM
Not a mad wildcatter but like all of us know, brass gets work hardened and big neck ups, neck downs would be helped by softer more malleable brass. I use whts probably the oldest technique going. Hold case the case head with your fingers, have a container of water close and use a candle to evenly as possible heat the neck. This of course isnt for precision situations but for simply getting more life out of work hardened cases it works. U just hold on to the case until your fingers say let go, and drop in the water bath. Primitive but effective, though u wont get an even anneal, the method does work. Just be careful to release when things get toasty or this wont be an especially fun activity.

doghunter
04-16-2015, 03:41 AM
G'day.

My method is crude and simple, but it works quite well.

I heat a tray of sand (1" deep) to 400C (just over 750F) over a gas (portable BBQ) burner.

The cartridge cases are suspended by their base (extractor groove) between two slotted plates that slide together to hold them and slide apart to drop them.

Jam neck first into the hot sand, count to ten and voila!

My aluminium plates hold twenty (.223) cases at a time. Temperature is measured with a thermocouple attached to my multimeter.

Wear gloves.

* doghunter *

jffshooter09
04-17-2015, 04:10 PM
G'day.

My method is crude and simple, but it works quite well.

I heat a tray of sand (1" deep) to 400C (just over 750F) over a gas (portable BBQ) burner.

The cartridge cases are suspended by their base (extractor groove) between two slotted plates that slide together to hold them and slide apart to drop them.

Jam neck first into the hot sand, count to ten and voila!

My aluminium plates hold twenty (.223) cases at a time. Temperature is measured with a thermocouple attached to my multimeter.

Wear gloves.

* doghunter *


Hmmm interesting....how long does it take to get the sand to temp and how hard is it to maintain the temp once its there?

doghunter
04-18-2015, 10:27 PM
Hmmm interesting....how long does it take to get the sand to temp and how hard is it to maintain the temp once its there?

G'day.

My sand container is a heavy cast aluminium circular tray. I use dry fine sand, it does not stick to the cases, but I run them through an ultrasonic cleaner with 10% citric acid to be certain.

It takes 20 minutes for the temperature to stabilise then I turn the burner off as the sand holds the heat for about 5 minutes (this is sufficient to do 100 cases). If I had to do more it is just a matter of re-lighting the burner.

I did contemplate using salt, but sand was cheaper and it worked very well from the start.

The annealed necks and shoulders are very consistent with the annealed band evenly distributed around the case body.

The results are far superior to my attempts using a propane burner in the traditional way as I found it difficult to get even and repeatable heating around the necks.

I did look at the multiple burner annealing machines and decided to try something less sophisticated.

It's also a quite inexpensive method, thermocouple probes are readily available to suit digital multimeters. I checked the calibration on mine by dipping into molten lead.

I was actually surprised that nobody else came up with this. I live in the Australian bush so a bloke has to make do with what's available.

Regards * doghunter *

ps. I actually do hunt wild (feral) dogs - they are a real problem where I live - they kill sheep and native animals

jffshooter09
04-22-2015, 09:47 AM
G'day.

My sand container is a heavy cast aluminium circular tray. I use dry fine sand, it does not stick to the cases, but I run them through an ultrasonic cleaner with 10% citric acid to be certain.

It takes 20 minutes for the temperature to stabilise then I turn the burner off as the sand holds the heat for about 5 minutes (this is sufficient to do 100 cases). If I had to do more it is just a matter of re-lighting the burner.

I did contemplate using salt, but sand was cheaper and it worked very well from the start.

The annealed necks and shoulders are very consistent with the annealed band evenly distributed around the case body.

The results are far superior to my attempts using a propane burner in the traditional way as I found it difficult to get even and repeatable heating around the necks.

I did look at the multiple burner annealing machines and decided to try something less sophisticated.

It's also a quite inexpensive method, thermocouple probes are readily available to suit digital multimeters. I checked the calibration on mine by dipping into molten lead.

I was actually surprised that nobody else came up with this. I live in the Australian bush so a bloke has to make do with what's available.

Regards * doghunter *

ps. I actually do hunt wild (feral) dogs - they are a real problem where I live - they kill sheep and native animals


I really like this idea, a member ran a thread on predator masters forum on how to build a machine at home that looked like a simple effective way to to go and I was going to try something similar . I've been using the ol socket /torch method for a long time with ok results but always wonder just how uniform they are from start to finish. But I also have to question how consistent even a machine can be, flame temp and time can always very a bit from batch to batch. It's seems as long as you can maintain a constant sand temp with this method it would be a fairly economical and effective way to go. If possible I would like to see some pics of this set up, especially the case holders.