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View Full Version : Need help with a 6 PPC Bore Rider chamber!



James M.
04-05-2015, 09:58 PM
A friend of mine who doesn't post or read the forums has a 6 PPC bore rider reamer. He has chambered two barrels and can't seem to get either to shoot. He told me that he is seating the bullets long to try to get them into the bore rider section, but the barrels are showing low velocities and inconsistent accuracy. If anyone has had good luck with this type chamber, would they mind sharing some of their tuning secrets. Thanks, James Mock

Bart
04-05-2015, 10:06 PM
Tell him to go back to his old reamer! And start tuning!

Bart

Boyd Allen
04-05-2015, 10:13 PM
Lou was shooting 65 grain Berger BTs with only about .065 of the bearing surface in the case neck when he shot the unlimited aggregate and single group that are both being measured for record.

James M.
04-05-2015, 10:13 PM
Bart, I told Richard that very thing ...... but you know how hard-headed he can be. By the way thanks for the bullets. I am going to test the .30's tomorrow. I am not the shooter that Jackie S. is but I expect some good things from them. I know that the Ultimates are good since I got my NBRSA magazine yesterday and saw what you and Billy did at River Bend. Billy's 2-gun .19xx sounds like a good single group for me. James

JerrySharrett
04-06-2015, 06:44 AM
Question, has he actually measured the bore rider diameter. Not all reamers cut what they are supposed to. That makes a big difference. I'll wager most shooters have no idea what their actual freebore diameter is nor do they know what their actual chamber neck diameter measures.

Bart
04-06-2015, 07:23 AM
James,

Several people at the Shamrock were complaining about switching to the bore-rider and having trouble getting it to shoot. Often in benchrest "one size" does not fit all. Tell Richard not to screw up the Super Shoot by insisting on using that reamer. Go with what you know works and he has the rest of the year to try get going with the bore rider.

Bart

JerrySharrett
04-06-2015, 08:19 AM
James,

Several people at the Shamrock were complaining about switching to the bore-rider and having trouble getting it to shoot. Often in benchrest "one size" does not fit all. Tell Richard not to screw up the Super Shoot by insisting on using that reamer. Go with what you know works and he has the rest of the year to try get going with the bore rider.

Bart

I wonder, with the typical bore rider chamber does the shooter have any control of the "jam" or is the leade too far out for, say, a 8 ogive or so bullet?

James M.
04-06-2015, 12:55 PM
Jerry, there is no way to seat the bullet into the lands. The "freebore" diameter is about the same as the bullets diameter (as seen on the drawing). James

JerrySharrett
04-06-2015, 05:06 PM
Jerry, there is no way to seat the bullet into the lands. The "freebore" diameter is about the same as the bullets diameter (as seen on the drawing). James

In what I think the rider bore is trying to accomplish "about the same" is not close enough to accomplish what we call "in-tune". There are several variables that go into "making a barrel shoot". One is backpressure which gives some credence on how a particular powder ignites e.g. the pressure curve for a given tune.

If the rider bore is even 0.0002" smaller than the actual bullet diameter you will get one effect. If the bore is even only 0.0002" larger than said bullet you will get blow-by and coppering. I think we have all seen that.

I still assert not one in fifty even know what their freebore diameter ACTUALLY is. Most folks don't know the actual diameter of the different bullets they shoot.

IMO, this "bore rider" deal, while it may solve some of the problems in hunting guns where long bullets are used but are effected by SAAMI tolerance stackup. Look at some of the SAAMI.org drawings. In most instances the MAXXIMUM chamber and the MINIMUM cartridge dimensions can be, theoretically as great as 0.012", and in actuality even more.

.

skeetlee
04-06-2015, 05:52 PM
I was thinking about trying the bore rider myself, but the more I thought about the more I though, WHY!!! I even sent Lou a email or two, while I was considering ordering this reamer. Lou gave me some good advise, and said in not so many words to stick with a 1045 ppc reamer, unless you just want to play around with something different. So after talking with Lou, I decided I would keep the extra 160$ in my pocket. From what I have been told, and from what I am hearing I am glad I did.
I have 3 different shooting buddies that I know of who are playing with the bore rider, and all 3 are having issues. One buddy of mine has gone through 4 different barrels, and he is just sure the barrels are the reason he cant get the rifles to tune. I didn't say anything, but in the back of my mind, I couldn't help but wonder if it wasn't the chamber? Who knows though?
I also know, that not all reamer are created equal, no matter what design they might be. bore rider or otherwise. This is one band wagon im glad I stayed off of. For now anyway.

Mike Bryant
04-06-2015, 08:40 PM
The barrel I was shooting at the Cactus was a bore rider reamer and did fairly well with it. The freebore on it is very strange looking compared to what we are used to seeing. I had made a chamber gage with the reamer and I had about .010" gap between the shoulder of the case and the shoulder of the chamber gage when the gage was dropped over a seated bullet. I was using a boat tail bullet made with a Rorschach point up die. I think the bullet is about a 7 1/2 or 8 ogive. What I am jamming, I'm not sure as I'm sure the bullet is still quite aways from what you would think as an actual jam into the lands. I haven't made up my mind about the reamer yet as it takes more time and more barrels than that to determine that. The more I've messed with reamer designs though the more I think there is something to the K.I.S.S. principle in just about everything that has to do with benchrest. I think how well you do with a chamber has more to do with how well your chamber works with your sizing die than with what the freebore shape and design. I'll chamber some more barrels with it and see from there.

jackie schmidt
04-06-2015, 08:50 PM
Man, I gotta get out more.

What are we talking about here??

Mike Bryant
04-06-2015, 09:21 PM
Jackie its a new reamer that's been around about a year or so. Lou Murdica did very well with it in an unlimited match in Phoenix shooting a .12 agg. Don't know whether it was 5 shot or 10 shot groups. His reamer print is in the link below. Dave Kiff ground me a reamer in about April last year with some difference from Lou's print to mine. Mine is a little longer on some of the freebore dimensions and a little shorter on some of the other freebore dimensions. My leade has a 1 degree 50' taper at the end of the freebore. But, am not sure if this has amy significance when the bullet doesn't actually get there when it seated.

Lou Murdica's Bore Rider Print (http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15756&d=1421082401)

Post concerning Bore Rider reamer (http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?91774-PTG-Bore-Rider-6-ppc-reamer&p=749784&highlight=#post749784)

jackie schmidt
04-06-2015, 09:42 PM
Thanks, Mike. You never know how something is going to work until someone try's it.

Just a thought. I would think that the actual bullet diameter would be very critical. And , as Jerry said, be sure your reamer, and the way you use it, does indeed produce a .2435 freebore

JerrySharrett
04-07-2015, 05:56 AM
Thanks Mike and Lou. Nothing works well till it is given a real shakeout and you two have the time, talent, and wherewithal to do it.

IMO, the bore rider design may work well but I think there needs to be greater consideration to the bore to bullet fit. Currently most folks doing chambering don't have the time or take the time, or both, to see what their finished neck and finished freebore diameters actually are.

Mike, you said you don't know what you are jamming. Could you explain?



BTW Lou, good luck to you and Angelina. She may just whip your butt.....lets hope anyway. Old age and treachery may not prevail as Gammon says.





.

JerrySharrett
04-07-2015, 06:15 AM
Looking at Lou's drawing, this bore rider is actually a stepped" freebore as opposed to a single straight diameter?

What is the purpose of the 0.233" dimension since our smallest 6mm barrels are 0.236???


.

JerrySharrett
04-07-2015, 06:47 AM
I also think barrel twist and velocity will be important components in the outcome. Walt Berger has said he feels that the sooner a bullet goes to sleep has more to do with wind effect than simply just the wind itself as a force. That is possibly why Lou and Angelina were so successful. The bullet may come out of the barrel more stable....makes sense to me! Testing outside the tunnel may give some more clues.

I noticed on one of Angelina's targets that she was shooting in a really hard blow and she kept it all together.


.

JerrySharrett
04-07-2015, 07:17 AM
Jackie especially, look at Lou's drawing. It appears to me there is a 0.2435" freebore for 0.111" then a taper from that 0.2435 to 0.2398" for the next 0.200". then a taper to 0.233" in the next approx. 0.130"?? (my eyes are so screwed up this morning I'm having problems reading Mikes copy)

jackie schmidt
04-07-2015, 09:21 AM
Thanks Lou. I can see the whole idea behind this by studying that print.
The fact is, if something works, it works. And the proof of how well something works in our World is the agging capability of the combination.

I guess my only concern would be is how many rounds would be fired before that all important free bore is compromised through natural erosion. It might be a moot point, since all barrels do erode in that area. This is, however, a little more difficult to clean up with a set-back, as you are dealing with a straight diameter for at least .111 inch rather than a tapered lead.

Steelhead1
04-07-2015, 12:12 PM
Lou,
I am waiting on my reamer from Kiff, but during your post you indicated that you stopped trimming to 1.500-1.502, are you now trimming to a shorter case length like 1.495?

Boyd Allen
04-07-2015, 12:22 PM
Having studied the print for some time and spoken to Dave Kiff (its designer) at some length about it, I will take the liberty of pointing out a couple of things that may not have jumped out upon first inspection.

Of course the parallel section (.2435 dia.) is pretty standard except that at .111 it is longer than any other 6PPC drawing than I have seen.

The tapered section in front of it, that is .200 long has a taper of .53 degree per side (31'-48", calculated from the dimensions), and the smaller dimension at its front takes that part of the cut up to about half the height of the lands on a barrel with a .237 bore.

Forward of that section, the lands are cut at the more common 1.5 degree angle.

For the person that wanted to know about the .233 dimension, it should be remembered that this is a reamer print, which corresponds to the chamber dimensions in those areas where the reamer cuts, but may have dimension for the reamer grinder that a chamber print would not. In this case it tells him what the diameter of the reamer is to be at the point where the degree and a half taper ends.

Looking at the middle section again....it starts with a cut that cleans off the lands at its big end and if we do a little calculation the lands are likely to start to show about .026 into that taper, assuming a groove diameter of .243. So, about .137 in front of where the 45 degree transition from the neck part of the chamber ends, the bottom of the lands start to show, and the effective leade angle at that point is about a half of a degree.

My conversation with Dave had started with the intent of just ordering a throating reamer but he told me that all of the dimensions had been designed to work together (meaning that the long parallel section was part of the design and that shortening it up to put more bullet in the case neck might change performance)so I took his advice and ordered (for a friend) the chamber reamer. It is supposed to be here today, and I imagine that by tomorrow that a chamber will have been cut, and wind permitting, testing begun. We have some of the 65 gr. BTs as well as some Columns.

Mike Bryant
04-07-2015, 02:13 PM
Attached is a Excel copy of my Bore Rider reamer print. It's a little different than Lou's print. The freebore on my reamer is .2436" for .077" from there it tapers to .2398" in .250" more length then the 1 degree 50' leade starts. You normally think of the jam being where the 1 degree 30' or 1 degree 50' leade (in my reamer) starts. I don't see that any normal benchrest bullet would ever be able to be seated out to even get close to where it was touching the 1 degree 50' and still seat in the neck. My bullet is .2432" on the diameter. It's touching somewhere on the taper between the .2436 and the .2398". That's why I'm not sure exactly where its touching. I have about a 1/16" of bearing surface inside the neck. The 65gr Berger BT like Lou was using won't touch anything in my chamber and fit in the neck as the BT is too long on it. My reamer is a .265" neck diameter. I have pin gages to check for finished neck diameters, but the pin gages are in .0005" increments and not in .0001" increments. The goal in any chambering is to get the reamer to cut as close to reamer size as is possible. In practice, the necks I've checked sometimes will take a pin .0005" over what the reamer is marked, but never .001" oversize. It would be nice to have a set of pin gages in .0001" increments for checking necks, but in wide range of neck diameters for a PPC, not very practical. I'm not sure what the benefit of knowing exactly what the actual neck diameter is would be anyway.

I'll have to do some chronographing and testing with the chamber to see how it compares to the Bukys reamer that I have with .080" freebore with a 1 degree 50' leade. I was planning on using LT-32 with it at Phoenix, but wound up shooting 29.4 gr of 07 lot of 133.

JerrySharrett
04-07-2015, 06:22 PM
Attached is a Excel copy of my Bore Rider reamer print. It's a little different than Lou's print.

In practice, the necks I've checked sometimes will take a pin .0005" over what the reamer is marked, but never .001" oversize. It would be nice to have a set of pin gages in .0001" increments for checking necks, but in wide range of neck diameters for a PPC, not very practical. I'm not sure what the benefit of knowing exactly what the actual neck diameter is would be anyway.

I'll have to do some chronographing and testing with the chamber to see how it compares to the Bukys reamer that I have with .080" freebore with a 1 degree 50' leade. I was planning on using LT-32 with it at Phoenix, but wound up shooting 29.4 gr of 07 lot of 133.

Mike, with judicious care you can use something like the Starrett half-ball small hole gages and check neck and freebore diameters as short as about 0.040" long or so in chambers that are short like the PPC. I have used a rubber surgical tube and gone deeper for longer chambers but it is really a pain!

http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-S830FZ-Small-3-2mm-12-7mm/dp/B0006J4QM8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428444940&sr=8-1&keywords=starrett+small+hole+gage+set

.

Mike Bryant
04-07-2015, 07:03 PM
Jerry, I have a couple of them somewhere. Been a long time since I used it.

JerrySharrett
04-07-2015, 09:28 PM
Jerry, I have a couple of them somewhere. Been a long time since I used it.

It takes some practice to use them but you can get really accurate measurements after you develop the "feel". Practice on a neck sizing bushing after you get confidence of its actual diameter using pin gages.

The reason neck bushings are good for practice in using small hole gages is that if you pick the bushing up with the hole gage you are still too tight. If you can't pick the bushing up you are too loose. When you feel the drag but can't pick the bushing up you have the right feel!


.

eww1350
04-13-2015, 01:07 PM
For what it is worth...I ordered a bore rider reamer in .300 UltraMag...after chambering the barrel I looked at it with my borescope and it does NOT remove the lands completely..hense you may get land marks on your bullet even though it is in the freebore part of the chamber..


Eddie in Texas

JerrySharrett
04-16-2015, 03:58 PM
Well I went to Phoenix me and Angelina my granddaughter shot.
Both shooting bore riders. LT 32
I was using Chuck Miller bullets she shot Chuck Miller bullets at 200 and columns100 yard
I won the 2 gun Took small group for 200 yard heavy gun.
Bunch of other trophies
Angelina shot fantastic for the first time shooting a bag gun. She took forth in a light varmint 100 yards . she shot a .109 for small group at 100 yards lt varmint. She shot small group in the light varmint 200 yards with a .290. The light varmint 200 she was leading after two and second after four groups.
The wind had been blowing about 10 to 15 miles an hour switching . she started her group and we had a twister come through while we were shooting and she really didn't know what to do and thought it calm down fired a shot and it went way out.
If not for that one shot she would've done fantastic in the light gun. She made me extremely proud for shooting a bag for the first time and only being 10 years old.

Bore rider or not, that little gal is just talented!!

davejones
08-01-2015, 01:46 AM
Mike, with judicious care you can use something like the Starrett half-ball small hole gages and check neck and freebore diameters as short as about 0.040" long or so in chambers that are short like the PPC. I have used a rubber surgical tube and gone deeper for longer chambers but it is really a pain!

http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-S830FZ-Small-3-2mm-12-7mm/dp/B0006J4QM8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428444940&sr=8-1&keywords=starrett+small+hole+gage+set

.

Could these be used to measure the neck dimension in a chamber? I have a .219 Donaldson Wasp & do not recall the neck diameter.

Thanks,

davejones

JerrySharrett
08-01-2015, 05:47 AM
Could these be used to measure the neck dimension in a chamber? I have a .219 Donaldson Wasp & do not recall the neck diameter.

Thanks,

davejones

Short answer, yes.

Mike Bryant
08-02-2015, 02:29 PM
I saw that this post had come back up on the screen. I've shot rifles chambered with the Borerider reamer in just about every match that I've shot this year which has been quite a few. I've been very impressed with the barrels chambered with this reamer. Enough so that everything I have is slowly being converted over to the chambering. Whether its any better or not than a standard freebore, I don't know, but I've done well shooting it. I've been shooting BT bullets this year made on my Rorschach point up die which has a long bearing surface and a Niemi .060" BT. I am touching the lands and getting a faint mark from the lands where the bullet is touching. I've shot both 133 and LT32 in the chambering. I chronographed loads after the Muchas Gracias match at Raton and was getting 3320 fps. Walt had trouble with his sporter and was going to shoot his HV out of class. He used one of my rifles instead and placed 2nd in the 100 yard shooting his moly coated 65gr. BT and 28.2 gr of T32. Since my reamer has a .265" neck, he used an extra seater that I had and used it as it was. He was hard into the lands, but had very little of the bearing surface of the bullet inside the neck. If you look at the reamer prints, Lou's and mine, the bore rider part of the freebore is a little different between the two reamers. If I did the math correctly, the actual angle measurement of Lou's reamer is about 30 minute of angle and with mine it's about 24 minute of angle. That's what gives the reamers their different look when you look at the chamber with a borescope from the traditional 1 degree 30 minute leade.