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Lee Martin
03-11-2015, 09:49 AM
I'm close to finishing my 6 PPC and am already thinking of a .30-cal for score. It may sound crazy swapping barrels on the same gun, but I'd like to base them on one action (may or may not work out, but I'm going to give it a shot). That said, what are the common dimensions for 30 PPCs with respect to diameter at the shoulder, shoulder angle, and neck length? I'm toying with the idea of keeping the neck the same length and improving it to 40 degrees. I don't believe it'll match the 30 BR on volume, but less body taper and a sharper shoulder should get it close. And I have no clue what 40 degrees will give with respect to precision. I've done other wildcats with that angle and they've shot.....but those were hunting cartridges, not BRs.

As always, any input would be appreciated.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Boyd Allen
03-11-2015, 10:11 AM
If you want to pick up some capacity, what about putting that shoulder angle on a necked up Grendel? With that, and a minimum body taper, I think that you would have about all you could get from a PPC family case. Another option is to turn down the rims (and extractor grooves) of BR brass. I believe that that has been successfully done. Perhaps others can speak to that option.

Lee Martin
03-11-2015, 10:19 AM
Boyd - funny how I was about to reinvent the wheel. Turning the rims on BRs, and possibly the extractor groove, is a great idea. My dad is currently building a 30 BR so we have the reamers. With all the PPC bolts out there, I gotta think this has been tried.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

mwezell
03-11-2015, 10:48 AM
Lee, both ways have been proven to work. Myself, I despise rebating rims and don't see the point in fire forming 220R brass to a 30 ppc, at least not when Top quality Lapua brass is readily available for the Grendel. It's a .070 long ppc, dimensionally, that only needs necking up to load and shoot. For the little gain in capacity that the 40 vs. 30 shoulder will yield..I just don't see the value in it. I prefer plucking a case out of a box, necking it up, and shooting, vs rebating rims(BR) or the added expense of custom dies etc that come with altering the Grendel case..but all three ways have been done and all three work.
I'd rebate rims over doing a 30 ppc..that's just me. I like the KISS method when it works.

I should have some lt-30 soon to test in my 30 Major, which is a 30 Grendel...no changes other than the neck diameter. If it works as well as I hope, I think that pretty much nullifies any benefit of using the br brass and rebating rims. I called it a 30 Major because when I developed it Alexander Arms had a copyright on the name "Grendel."

Whatever you decide, it's not re-inventing the wheel anymore, because it's been done successfully. Stinnett's world record was with his version of the 30 Grendel. There are pros and cons between the small 30's, but they are small, either way. The biggest difference was that the case capacity of the ppc and Grendel cases weren't as roomy for using h4198. LT30 is suppose to be denser and faster, both good things in the smaller 30's. With h4198, it took a very full case to get the Major up to speed. I used n120 and still think it's the magic pixie dust in it, but that stuff got hard to find and expensive. If the lt-30 is close to it,..problem solved. FWIW, I've shot some lt-32 in it also. It's a slow pour but will shoot, so logically, the lt 30 should fit the bill.--Mike

p.s.--One more thing..I spec'd a 30 Major reamer based on an off the shelf Redding Type s full bushing die's dimensions. It only requires opening the hole in the shelf for the bushing a few thou. The benefits of doing it this way were proper sizing and die availability, without the expense of custom. Most people I've built them for prefer the wilson type seaters, and that's a simple job. I prefer the Redding seater dies for convenience as much as anything. I simply made a sliding sleeve and reamed it from a blank. It's more time and money that way, but it's what I wanted.

Jim Pag
03-11-2015, 11:15 AM
Lee. The guy u might want to talk to is Larry Feusse of MI. I have a Farley that he chambered in 30 Gorilla. It is his version of the 6.5 Grendel case necked up and shoulder blown out 5 more degree's to 35. The reason that he blew out the shoulder another 5 degrees is that he said it gives him just a hair more capacity, better feel in the die, less neck growth and a turbulence point inside the neck that is just a wee bit closer to the back. Also instead of zero freebore found in a lot of 30's, he uses .035" and in some cases as much as .060". In his set-up he uses bullets on a .925 jacket which allows barrel twist rate in the 19 twist range. With 112 grain bullets, that combination gives him less upset in the bags and velocity in the 3050 range. He also uses IMR 4227 which gives a real quick burn time inside the barrel, which has the added benefit of reduced muzzle blast and thus less recoil. He also uses a tuner. He has done very well with that cartridge. The rifle that I own in 30 Gorilla use to belong to Matt Guthrie. He did very well when he shot it. John Cascarino of NY owns one and he told me that he does better with that caliber than his 30BR. I really haven't had a chance to ring it out because I've been shooting a 30 BR for my 1st 2 seasons, but I bought a ton of LT30 and Norma 200, and have some N120. Those 3 powders should be a good match for that cartridge. Only time will tell. By the way, I hope u like your new March, because I had first dibs on it and I turned it down to buy a fairly new rifle off the guy you bought it from instead.

Pete Wass
03-11-2015, 11:48 AM
While I have been mostly out of the CF world for a couple of years perhaps my opinion is dated but having gone to the trouble of custom cartridges, I have yet to see any advantage in using anything other than the 6 BR case with a blown out neck. Being at the mercy of Carlton- Pettibone (sp?) for powder is not something I would ever aspire to. From what I have seen, chasing speed is an exercise in futility. The 30 BR is so simple and easy to use, why do anything else? Ok, OK, ya want something "Different", I get that but it's just too easy to open up a bolt face if one needs to and rebating cases isn't the end of the world, having done that in the past as well. Just my point of view you understand. I think I would go the no turn route if I were ever to do another 30BR, considering the success of the Beggs cases.

Pete

mwezell
03-11-2015, 12:34 PM
While I have been mostly out of the CF world for a couple of years perhaps my opinion is dated but having gone to the trouble of custom cartridges, I have yet to see any advantage in using anything other than the 6 BR case with a blown out neck. Being at the mercy of Carlton- Pettibone (sp?) for powder is not something I would ever aspire to. From what I have seen, chasing speed is an exercise in futility. The 30 BR is so simple and easy to use, why do anything else? Ok, OK, ya want something "Different", I get that but it's just too easy to open up a bolt face if one needs to and rebating cases isn't the end of the world, having done that in the past as well. Just my point of view you understand. I think I would go the no turn route if I were ever to do another 30BR, considering the success of the Beggs cases.

Pete
Pete, wanting to do something is reason enough, but there are times where opening the bolt face or rebating rims isn't an option, by itself..such as some of the drop port vipers that present other challenges to opening the bolt, as well as the fact that, until just a few years ago, the port wouldn't let a br diameter case drop.

Lee Martin
03-11-2015, 12:44 PM
All good points guys and I really do appreciate the feedback. I'll have to mull this over a bit. We have 30 BR reamers and dies, so I could save some time on the front-end. Of course, that would require rim and extractor turning which is ongoing when forming new cases. Conversely, brass prep is easier using the Grendel since it's one pass over a mandrel. Since we make our own reamers and dies, in the end I may just do a 30 Major or Gorilla.

Jim - I absolutely love that 40x March. The 3/32" dot reticle is perfect for my eyes and it mates well with score targets.

Pete - I try to avoid wildcats when possible, but I'm doing this as a switch barrel on my 6 PPC action. That's why I can't run an unaltered 30 BR.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

mwezell
03-11-2015, 01:17 PM
All good points guys and I really do appreciate the feedback. I'll have to mull this over a bit. We have 30 BR reamers and dies, so I could save some time on the front-end. Of course, that would require rim and extractor turning which is ongoing when forming new cases. Conversely, brass prep is easier using the Grendel since it's one pass over a mandrel. Since we make our own reamers and dies, in the end I may just do a 30 Major or Gorilla.

Jim - I absolutely love that 40x March. The 3/32" dot reticle is perfect for my eyes and it mates well with score targets.

Pete - I try to avoid wildcats when possible, but I'm doing this as a switch barrel on my 6 PPC action. That's why I can't run an unaltered 30 BR.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

If you go the rout of the 30 Major, I'll be happy to help in any way I can. I hope to have some feedback soon on the lt30.
Your choices are all good.
As Jim mentioned, there are other powders that work..and he's right about the lower muzzle pressure and somewhat lighter recoil. I just steer clear of the 4227 powder, as my experience with it was good, but tempermental. It lures you into putting too much in the case, which happens very fast with it. It did produce some good results, though.

Pete Wass
03-11-2015, 01:28 PM
Pete, wanting to do something is reason enough, but there are times where opening the bolt face or rebating rims isn't an option, by itself..such as some of the drop port vipers that present other challenges to opening the bolt, as well as the fact that, until just a few years ago, the port wouldn't let a br diameter case drop.

I had a lathe cutter ground to facilitate rebating and found it very easy to make the cases. I did use a lot of qualifiers I thought. There are 30 cal bolt faces that will pick up the PPC cases I think, as well but I certainly understand not wanting to open the face up. I didn't do it to my Hall.

Pete

Jim Pag
03-11-2015, 01:47 PM
If you go the rout of the 30 Major, I'll be happy to help in any way I can. I hope to have some feedback soon on the lt30.
Your choices are all good.
As Jim mentioned, there are other powders that work..and he's right about the lower muzzle pressure and somewhat lighter recoil. I just steer clear of the 4227 powder, as my experience with it was good, but tempermental. It lures you into putting too much in the case, which happens very fast with it. It did produce some good results, though.

Your right about the IMR4227 Mike. Larry said that max loads must be approached with extreme caution, because the powder is very fast and will give dangerous pressures with just a little extra heat of the day or other pressure building changes. he told me to start at about 28 grains and work up very carefully. I know he told me that he did a 50/50 blend of IMR4227 and LT32. John Cascarino told me that H4227 was the balls in that 30 Gorilla. Too bad they discontinued it. I made the mistake of selling about 20 pounds of it 3 years ago.

Pete Wass
03-11-2015, 02:03 PM
Your right about the IMR4227 Mike. Larry said that max loads must be approached with extreme caution, because the powder is very fast and will give dangerous pressures with just a little extra heat of the day or other pressure building changes. he told me to start at about 28 grains and work up very carefully. I know he told me that he did a 50/50 blend of IMR4227 and LT32. John Cascarino told me that H4227 was the balls in that 30 Gorilla. Too bad they discontinued it. I made the mistake of selling about 20 pounds of it 3 years ago.

On a rifle using H-4227 years ago and had to remove the barrel to get it loose. Not pleasant, to say the least.

Pete

mwezell
03-11-2015, 02:49 PM
Your right about the IMR4227 Mike. Larry said that max loads must be approached with extreme caution, because the powder is very fast and will give dangerous pressures with just a little extra heat of the day or other pressure building changes. he told me to start at about 28 grains and work up very carefully. I know he told me that he did a 50/50 blend of IMR4227 and LT32. John Cascarino told me that H4227 was the balls in that 30 Gorilla. Too bad they discontinued it. I made the mistake of selling about 20 pounds of it 3 years ago.

Jim, IIRC, the newer Aussie made IMR is the same as the h4227. The older, Canadian stuff was bad fast. I'm certainly open to correction if I'm wrong about this..but that's just what I remember. Larry may know what I'm referring to as well.

Jim Pag
03-11-2015, 03:09 PM
Jim, IIRC, the newer Aussie made IMR is the same as the h4227. The older, Canadian stuff was bad fast. I'm certainly open to correction if I'm wrong about this..but that's just what I remember. Larry may know what I'm referring to as well. Thanks for that bit of info Mike. I'll have to ask both Larry and John about that. By the way, you should receive my 2 bbl.'s on Monday.

mwezell
03-11-2015, 03:50 PM
Thanks for that bit of info Mike. I'll have to ask both Larry and John about that. By the way, you should receive my 2 bbl.'s on Monday.

I'll be looking for them, Jim.

Butch Lambert
03-11-2015, 06:53 PM
Mike, I built a 6ppc Stiller drop port. I chambered a 30 BR barrel and slightly enlarged the drop port. Works great with both the PPC and BR case. Photos are below of my Rebating tool and brass.

http://i52.tinypic.com/34fhcgg.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/swv7dz.jpg

The brass starting from left.
Remington w/o flash hole, 6BR Lapua, rebated 6BR Norma, and a BR rebated to 223 head size

Randy Robinett is using my rebating tool at this time.

Lee Martin
03-12-2015, 09:36 AM
So just to recap:

30 PPC - 220 Russian expanded to 30
30 Gorilla - 6.5 Grendel up to 30 and improved to 35 degrees
30 Major - 6.5 Grendel up to 30, with no other changes
30 Stewart - 6.5 Grendel up to 30 (not sure what other changes are made)

Can anyone tell me the rough case lengths for each?

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

mwezell
03-12-2015, 10:27 AM
So just to recap:

30 PPC - 220 Russian expanded to 30
30 Gorilla - 6.5 Grendel up to 30 and improved to 35 degrees
30 Major - 6.5 Grendel up to 30, with no other changes
30 Stewart - 6.5 Grendel up to 30 (not sure what other changes are made)

Can anyone tell me the rough case lengths for each?

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

I think they're all roughly 1.500. Where the shoulder starts is the biggest difference.

mwezell
03-12-2015, 10:31 AM
Mike, I built a 6ppc Stiller drop port. I chambered a 30 BR barrel and slightly enlarged the drop port. Works great with both the PPC and BR case. Photos are below of my Rebating tool and brass.

http://i52.tinypic.com/34fhcgg.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/swv7dz.jpg

The brass starting from left.
Remington w/o flash hole, 6BR Lapua, rebated 6BR Norma, and a BR rebated to 223 head size

Randy Robinett is using my rebating tool at this time.

Yes Butch, and I've done them...been aiming to open mine, but it hasn't been out of the stock in a while. Therein lies the biggest problem. The action needs to come out to do the simple opening of the port. But you're right, it's very doable. Just not convenient if it's a glue-in.

Jim Pag
03-12-2015, 11:01 AM
I think they're all roughly 1.500. Where the shoulder starts is the biggest difference.

Yup Mike, my Gorilla is 1.500

mwezell
03-12-2015, 11:25 AM
Yup Mike, my Gorilla is 1.500

Jim, do you know how much capacity he gains by using the 40? I'm just curious. It can't be much, but it might help with 4198 and powders that are borderline in the Major. My guess is a grain or less. If it's much more, it may be worth it for that little bit of room.

I use mainly 7-3/4 or 8 ogive bullets. Not because I have to, but because it's what a couple of makers are using that I've found to be good bullets. The extra room it gives is just a bonus, as the 7's work too. I've had better luck, consistently, with any of those than 10 ogives. A few people like the 10's, but I've seen a few barrels that didn't shoot them well.

Jim Pag
03-13-2015, 08:54 AM
Jim, do you know how much capacity he gains by using the 40? I'm just curious. It can't be much, but it might help with 4198 and powders that are borderline in the Major. My guess is a grain or less. If it's much more, it may be worth it for that little bit of room.

I use mainly 7-3/4 or 8 ogive bullets. Not because I have to, but because it's what a couple of makers are using that I've found to be good bullets. The extra room it gives is just a bonus, as the 7's work too. I've had better luck, consistently, with any of those than 10 ogives. A few people like the 10's, but I've seen a few barrels that didn't shoot them well.

No I don't know the case capacity of the 30 Gorilla. It has a 35 degree shoulder, not a 40. When I load 32 grains of 4198, it's half way up the neck. I have 0.160" left from the top of the neck to the powder level. With the same charge of LT30, I have 0.210" left in the neck. At 33 grains of LT, I get the same space left as I do with 32 of H4198. I measure my loads on a GD503 Sartorius scale and use a 10" funnel/drop tube to load them. Hope that helps u out Mike. As far as bullets go, Larry told me that anything with a .925 jacket will work. Larry, Cascarino, and Guthrie all used Bib 112's. They all said that bullet works great. I only have about 1K left, but I just received 5K of Bart's 112's and I'm sure those will shoot lights out when used, providing I do my part. Do u coat your bullets Mike? I've been using HBN for about a season now and I really like the stuff. Can't wait to try all this stuff, but we have more snow coming for the next 2 days. Why I moved north instead of south, I'll never know. Momentary lapse of reason or just major brain damage. More likely the latter of the 2.

mwezell
03-13-2015, 11:31 AM
No I don't know the case capacity of the 30 Gorilla. It has a 35 degree shoulder, not a 40. When I load 32 grains of 4198, it's half way up the neck. I have 0.160" left from the top of the neck to the powder level. With the same charge of LT30, I have 0.210" left in the neck. At 33 grains of LT, I get the same space left as I do with 32 of H4198. I measure my loads on a GD503 Sartorius scale and use a 10" funnel/drop tube to load them. Hope that helps u out Mike. As far as bullets go, Larry told me that anything with a .925 jacket will work. Larry, Cascarino, and Guthrie all used Bib 112's. They all said that bullet works great. I only have about 1K left, but I just received 5K of Bart's 112's and I'm sure those will shoot lights out when used, providing I do my part. Do u coat your bullets Mike? I've been using HBN for about a season now and I really like the stuff. Can't wait to try all this stuff, but we have more snow coming for the next 2 days. Why I moved north instead of south, I'll never know. Momentary lapse of reason or just major brain damage. More likely the latter of the 2.

Thanks Jim. Yes, I coat mine with Danzac. I use it because of the reduced, almost eliminated, copper fouling. As you know, I like to go against the grain a bit. :o
I've won matches with 400 rounds down the tube without cleaning..using coated bullets.(more than once!) When I finally cleaned..no more copper than normal. Go figure!

I like shooting and enjoying the company more than I care for cleaning. What can I say? I thought it was more to do with the 30's not fouling much until I tried it with a 22 cal and saw the same thing. It works for me, but as always, YMMV. I don't go that far without cleaning often, but I almost never clean during a match any more. I tied a record last year at a night shoot like this. Of course I finished 2nd! Maybe I'd of won if I cleaned?:confused:

Pete Wass
03-18-2015, 05:43 PM
NO more. My experience with RF rifles has taught me otherwise. From my experience, most barrels never shoot better than they do right after fouling them from being white patch clean. I found this to be true with my 30 BR's as well. Yes, they are somewhat forgiving with regard to not cleaning them but I go back to what I said previously. The quest is to find a product-compound that will instantly, or nearly so, take carbon away. To date, Zip Strip seems to be the fastest but something even more aggressive would be preferred, by me anyway. We don't have all that much time to get barrels spotlessly clean at matches. I have been the coated bullet route as well but, like I said, they never shoot better than right after being spotless, from my experience.

Pete

Jim Pag
03-18-2015, 06:31 PM
NO more. My experience with RF rifles has taught me otherwise. From my experience, most barrels never shoot better than they do right after fouling them from being white patch clean. I found this to be true with my 30 BR's as well. Yes, they are somewhat forgiving with regard to not cleaning them but I go back to what I said previously. The quest is to find a product-compound that will instantly, or nearly so, take carbon away. To date, Zip Strip seems to be the fastest but something even more aggressive would be preferred, by me anyway. We don't have all that much time to get barrels spotlessly clean at matches. I have been the coated bullet route as well but, like I said, they never shoot better than right after being spotless, from my experience.

Pete
Pete I use to clean after every 2 relays. Then I talked to Breeden about cleaning because he uses T D on his bullets. He told me that he goes up to 3 matches without cleaning, so I just clean when I come home from a match. I never noticed any difference between the old way and the new way that I clean as far as accuracy goes. Hey whatever works for you.

Pete Wass
03-18-2015, 06:48 PM
Pete I use to clean after every 2 relays. Then I talked to Breeden about cleaning because he uses T D on his bullets. He told me that he goes up to 3 matches without cleaning, so I just clean when I come home from a match. I never noticed any difference between the old way and the new way that I clean as far as accuracy goes. Hey whatever works for you.

Yes. It's a personal choice. It's the same sort of argument about throwing vs weighing charges. I often wonder how much better the best shooters who don't make their ammo as perfect as it could be with a bit of extra care. Perhaps the records would be even stronger than they are.

Pete

jackie schmidt
03-18-2015, 11:58 PM
Pete, I shoot an entire agg with my 30BR and never clean, but I clean my 6PPC after every group.

When I shot the 25 X's 2 weeks ago, my last target was five wipeouts, maybe the best target of the day.

I might try an agg without cleaning the 6 this weekend st The Crawfish..

Wilbur
03-23-2015, 12:27 PM
Don't do it! It's been done several times and it goes bad in one shot. Fine to bad in a single shot.


Pete, I shoot an entire agg with my 30BR and never clean, but I clean my 6PPC after every group.

When I shot the 25 X's 2 weeks ago, my last target was five wipeouts, maybe the best target of the day.

I might try an agg without cleaning the 6 this weekend st The Crawfish..

Pete Wass
03-23-2015, 05:47 PM
Pete, I shoot an entire agg with my 30BR and never clean, but I clean my 6PPC after every group.

When I shot the 25 X's 2 weeks ago, my last target was five wipeouts, maybe the best target of the day.

I might try an agg without cleaning the 6 this weekend st The Crawfish..

But it also took me a long time to get the barrel clean after the match, like all week. I also got to thinking about the differences between RF guns and CF guns. For one thing, RF matches are typically 6- 25 record bull cards per match day. I find that my RF rifles will shoot well through three 25 bull cards with light cleaning between but accuracy drops off after the third card. Perhaps it's wrong thinking on my part making a comparison based on my RF experience.

Pete

mwezell
03-23-2015, 07:39 PM
But it also took me a long time to get the barrel clean after the match, like all week. I also got to thinking about the differences between RF guns and CF guns. For one thing, RF matches are typically 6- 25 record bull cards per match day. I find that my RF rifles will shoot well through three 25 bull cards with light cleaning between but accuracy drops off after the third card. Perhaps it's wrong thinking on my part making a comparison based on my RF experience.

Pete

Pete, refer to post 23. IME, fouling was little, if at all more than cleaning between cards, shooting cf with coated bullets. Again, YMMV, but I don't remember the last time that I cleaned at a match. And again, I tied an AGG record, last year like this.

Lee Martin
10-16-2016, 03:05 PM
A year and a half later, I'm starting in on a 30. I've decided to neck up 6.5 Grendel and improve the shoulder to 40 degrees. Think I'll call it a "30 Stingray". It's really nothing more than a Major+10 or a Gorilla+5. We'll grind our own reamer with a 0.330" neck and zero free-bore. Sound about right or is there an argument for mild free-bore with 112 - 118 grain bullets? I'll probably swage my own and haven't decided on the ogive yet. When I talk to George Ulrich I'll see what he recommends. Of course I'm always open to this forum's suggestions.

Thanks,

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

bstroud
10-16-2016, 07:28 PM
Lee, we have a case that we call the Grinch now that is a Grendel case blown out with a 40 degree shoulder that we have been using with 6mm bullets from 68 gr all the way up to 108 gr. We also went ahead and made a 30 Grinch also. The reamer print is at JGS.

bstroud
10-16-2016, 07:45 PM
This is what we use.