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RJM
03-09-2015, 09:04 AM
The "tuner question" thread got me to wondering:

Does anyone do a ladder test with a tuner, not changing the load, but changing the tuner setting to find the "right" setting?

Then again, is there a "right" setting that works day after day?

Regards,
Ron

Greyfox
03-09-2015, 02:29 PM
The "tuner question" thread got me to wondering:

Does anyone do a ladder test with a tuner, not changing the load, but changing the tuner setting to find the "right" setting?

Then again, is there a "right" setting that works day after day?

Regards,
Ron

I don't do ladder tests, so I can't answer that part of the question. I mainly shoot score matches as there is no group competition in my area.
I go to all matches preloaded for both yardages (100/200). I use the initial 3 minute sight in (100 yards) to set the tuner. I shoot two shots and if there is more than 1/2 bullet vertical I stop adjust the tuner about 1/8". The direction depends on the temp as compared to the last time I adjusted. If the two shot group had no discernible vertical I take a third shot to confirm. I do this again when we move to 200 yards. When I have neglected to do this, it's usually been a mistake. Most of the time the temp changes from 9:00 -12:00 and requires another slight adjustment. I never change the powder charge, only the tuner setting. Depending on the barrel contour and load, one might find a setting that rarely needs changing. I just retired a 1.25" straight barrel chambered in 220 Beggs that I almost never changed and even then, only slightly. My LV barrels seem to need more frequent adjustments, but I don't believe I've adjusted at all during a yardage. However, there have been times that maybe I should have.

Rick

jackie schmidt
03-09-2015, 06:33 PM
Truth is, I have a load with N133 in a .237 4 groove 13.5 twist Krieger that is always pretty close. I stick that load in it, and then tune with the tuner. It is in what many of us call "the upper load window".

The only time I won't do this is if the humidity drops way down in the 20 percent or lower range. I know then to put about as much powder in the case as a 12 in small hole drop tube will allow. Or settle for middle of the pack.

If the barrel won't shoot that load reasonably well with minor tweaks of the tuner, it's getting discarded.

mks
03-09-2015, 11:09 PM
Below are the results of a tuner test. I wouldn't call it a ladder test, more of a "cross test," because what you get as you move the tuner is a vertical group that changes to round, then to horizontal then to round, then to vertical, etc., in a repeating pattern. The results below are a coarse test moving the tuner two marks at a time and the round groups don't show up. (Sorry, I couldn't find exactly the right set of results to show this, but it is what I have found to happen.) The round groups would be in between these tests at tuner settings of 11, 9 and 7. Also, the group at tuner setting of 12 doesn't quite fit the pattern. It does have more vertical like tuner 8, but there is also some horizontal that may have crept in from a little wind. Or the patterns may just be inconsistent at this point. Note that the tuner goes through its whole cycle of group shapes in 4 marks, which is an eighth of a turn of the rings.

15960

Greyfox
03-10-2015, 08:33 AM
Below are the results of a tuner test. I wouldn't call it a ladder test, more of a "cross test," because what you get as you move the tuner is a vertical group that changes to round, then to horizontal then to round, then to vertical, etc., in a repeating pattern. The results below are a coarse test moving the tuner two marks at a time and the round groups don't show up. (Sorry, I couldn't find exactly the right set of results to show this, but it is what I have found to happen.) The round groups would be in between these tests at tuner settings of 11, 9 and 7. Also, the group at tuner setting of 12 doesn't quite fit the pattern. It does have more vertical like tuner 8, but there is also some horizontal that may have crept in from a little wind. Or the patterns may just be inconsistent at this point. Note that the tuner goes through its whole cycle of group shapes in 4 marks, which is an eighth of a turn of the rings.

15960

Keith,
I just have a couple of comments on your post. I'm guessing that these groups were shot at 200 yards as most ladder tests are done at that distance. Also, since I wasn't there I can only guess at the wind conditions.

IME- you have gone from in tune to out of tune with a fairly large movement of the tuner. 1/8 of a turn (again IME) is a very large adjustment. Most of my tuning involves 1/8" of movement of the tuner. The groups you posted indicate to me that #2 & #4 were pretty much in tune, but the seating depth needs to be changed slightly. Of course, that could also be the wind you mentioned. IME, with every type of tuner I own, on a LV barrel 1/8 of a turn would take me in and out of a node a couple of times.

Rick

mks
03-10-2015, 01:41 PM
Keith,
I just have a couple of comments on your post. I'm guessing that these groups were shot at 200 yards as most ladder tests are done at that distance. Also, since I wasn't there I can only guess at the wind conditions.

IME- you have gone from in tune to out of tune with a fairly large movement of the tuner. 1/8 of a turn (again IME) is a very large adjustment. Most of my tuning involves 1/8" of movement of the tuner. The groups you posted indicate to me that #2 & #4 were pretty much in tune, but the seating depth needs to be changed slightly. Of course, that could also be the wind you mentioned. IME, with every type of tuner I own, on a LV barrel 1/8 of a turn would take me in and out of a node a couple of times.

Rick

Rick,
The round groups that I unfortunately couldn't find graphs of are the smallest, so these represent the best tune. These occur every two marks (one mark = 1/32 of a turn = 0.001" axial movement) and are in between the tuner settings of the graphs shown. So I think this part of our experience is similar.

We seem to do different things about a horizontal group, though. I hadn't thought of changing seating depth to reduce horizontal, so thanks for the idea. I just turn the tuner one mark and the horizontal goes away. It still seems incredible that it works this way, that this rifle is only ever one mark away from tune. It may not always be consistent, as the first graph shows, but it is remarkably so. For seating depth and powder charge, I find the smallest groups with each of these at one setting of the tuner, then don't change them afterward. The only tuning is with the tuner. I don't bring a press to the range, and I would have to start doing that to change seating depth. So long as it is doing the job, I like the convenience of using only the tuner. But I'll keep seating depth in mind if I ever have problems.

Thanks,
Keith

Greyfox
03-10-2015, 04:50 PM
Rick,
The round groups that I unfortunately couldn't find graphs of are the smallest, so these represent the best tune. These occur every two marks (one mark = 1/32 of a turn = 0.001" axial movement) and are in between the tuner settings of the graphs shown. So I think this part of our experience is similar.

We seem to do different things about a horizontal group, though. I hadn't thought of changing seating depth to reduce horizontal, so thanks for the idea. I just turn the tuner one mark and the horizontal goes away. It still seems incredible that it works this way, that this rifle is only ever one mark away from tune. It may not always be consistent, as the first graph shows, but it is remarkably so. For seating depth and powder charge, I find the smallest groups with each of these at one setting of the tuner, then don't change them afterward. The only tuning is with the tuner. I don't bring a press to the range, and I would have to start doing that to change seating depth. So long as it is doing the job, I like the convenience of using only the tuner. But I'll keep seating depth in mind if I ever have problems.

Thanks,
Keith

Keith,
Your additional comments do seem to show similar results to mine. It only take very small adjustments to have an effect on the tune. I wish I could claim discovery of the seating depth and horizontal, but I'll have to give credit for that to Gene Beggs. A couple of years ago I exchanged several emails with him and learned that he adjusts the vertical with the tuner and the horizontal with seating depth. (If I misunderstood him or if he has found other data, I hope he'll see this and add to it).

When I get a new barrel (which I did last week) I begin with a known good load. If it responds well to the tuner, I begin adjusting the seating depth. I have found that after finding a good seating depth I can tune the vertical with the tuner and it has no ill effect on the horizontal. However, if the vertical tune is bad, the horizontal will also be bad. Hope that makes sense.

YMMV,
Rick

mks
03-10-2015, 05:41 PM
Rick,
Thanks, makes perfect sense. But with the difference we see (your tuner doesn't affect horizontal, but mine does), it makes me wonder what causes it. I have only tested two rifles with tuners. They have essentially the same action, barrel and tuner, but very different stocks. Yet they respond pretty much the same to tuner setting. Is your tuner a Shade Tree? I'll bet our barrels are about the same (HV contour). Is your action single or dual port?

Thanks,
Keith

Greyfox
03-10-2015, 06:42 PM
Rick,
Thanks, makes perfect sense. But with the difference we see (your tuner doesn't affect horizontal, but mine does), it makes me wonder what causes it. I have only tested two rifles with tuners. They have essentially the same action, barrel and tuner, but very different stocks. Yet they respond pretty much the same to tuner setting. Is your tuner a Shade Tree? I'll bet our barrels are about the same (HV contour). Is your action single or dual port?

Thanks,
Keith

Keith,
It may well be that I just haven't noticed about the tuner affecting horizontal. There is a long range shooter in Florida that insists in a thread on accurateshooter.com that he gets the same results that you report. Maybe I will need to watch closer, but for now as long as I can get consistent horizontal with seating and good vertical with the tuner, I'll probably stick with that process. When I can get the time to spend at the range for something other than a match, I'll see what I can find out. As far as tuners, I have at least seven different types. Currently, I'm using a Borden on two and an Ezell on the other, the fourth is a Factory Class so I can't use one on it. I think I still have a Shadetree somewhere.

Rick

mks
03-10-2015, 07:41 PM
Keith,
It may well be that I just haven't noticed about the tuner affecting horizontal. There is a long range shooter in Florida that insists in a thread on accurateshooter.com that he gets the same results that you report. Maybe I will need to watch closer, but for now as long as I can get consistent horizontal with seating and good vertical with the tuner, I'll probably stick with that process. When I can get the time to spend at the range for something other than a match, I'll see what I can find out. As far as tuners, I have at least seven different types. Currently, I'm using a Borden on two and an Ezell on the other, the fourth is a Factory Class so I can't use one on it. I think I still have a Shadetree somewhere.

Rick

Rick,
The reason I ask about the actions is that most don't have the same stiffness on the left as the right, especially single port. Even dual port actions usually have different size ports, so the stiffness in not perfectly symmetrical. Asymmetrical stiffness would tend to cause more horizontal, which the tuner alone might not be able to eliminate. There could be other reasons, too, why a tuner doesn't take out horizontal on a particular rifle.

Keith

Greyfox
03-10-2015, 09:04 PM
Rick,
The reason I ask about the actions is that most don't have the same stiffness on the left as the right, especially single port. Even dual port actions usually have different size ports, so the stiffness in not perfectly symmetrical. Asymmetrical stiffness would tend to cause more horizontal, which the tuner alone might not be able to eliminate. There could be other reasons, too, why a tuner doesn't take out horizontal on a particular rifle.

Keith

OK, I guess I didn't completely understand you question. Since you don't shoot UBR with us, you wouldn't know that I am one of the very few idiots that shoots all four classes and a completely different rifle in every class.
Factory Class -Remington 40x 6x47 (222 RM), no tuner
Modied Class - Remington 40X 6PPC HV barrel Borden Tuner
Custom Class - Bat "S" RB, Dual port, 6PPC LV barrel Ezell tuner
Unlimited Class - Remington XP (Sleeved) 220 Beggs Straight 1.25" - Borden Tuner

So each rifle/class is different and I typically shoot two rifles at every match. They all shoot a little different, so it's not unusual that I would miss some subtle differences in the tuner effect.

Rick

mwezell
03-10-2015, 09:32 PM
Rick,
The round groups that I unfortunately couldn't find graphs of are the smallest, so these represent the best tune. These occur every two marks (one mark = 1/32 of a turn = 0.001" axial movement) and are in between the tuner settings of the graphs shown. So I think this part of our experience is similar.

We seem to do different things about a horizontal group, though. I hadn't thought of changing seating depth to reduce horizontal, so thanks for the idea. I just turn the tuner one mark and the horizontal goes away. It still seems incredible that it works this way, that this rifle is only ever one mark away from tune. It may not always be consistent, as the first graph shows, but it is remarkably so. For seating depth and powder charge, I find the smallest groups with each of these at one setting of the tuner, then don't change them afterward. The only tuning is with the tuner. I don't bring a press to the range, and I would have to start doing that to change seating depth. So long as it is doing the job, I like the convenience of using only the tuner. But I'll keep seating depth in mind if I ever have problems.

Thanks,
Keith

Keith, this is a very good post. It describes EXACTLY what I expect to see and how I use a tuner...as well as why I use a tuner. --Mike

TSI243
03-11-2015, 12:55 AM
Have you all seen this before ??
all shots have been fired with the same load Point of aim is the center of the X -- the only difference is the position of the tuner ---

mwezell
03-11-2015, 06:33 AM
Have you all seen this before ??
all shots have been fired with the same load Point of aim is the center of the X -- the only difference is the position of the tuner ---

If you're referring to the change in poi, yes, I count on it. I just don't adjust in the middle of a string.
Is there something else I should be looking for, Gene?

Greyfox
03-11-2015, 08:25 AM
Have you all seen this before ??
all shots have been fired with the same load Point of aim is the center of the X -- the only difference is the position of the tuner ---

Yes,
That's consistent with my experience with all types of tuners.

Rick

RJM
03-11-2015, 08:34 AM
Have you all seen this before ??
all shots have been fired with the same load Point of aim is the center of the X -- the only difference is the position of the tuner ---

I think that's close to what I was referring to as a ladder test with the tuner. Can you provide some additional explanation of the picture?

My naive thought is that if you can find a range of settings where the shots go to the same POI, set the tuner in the middle of the range, & call it tuned.

Regards,
Ron

Greyfox
03-11-2015, 09:11 AM
I think that's close to what I was referring to as a ladder test with the tuner. Can you provide some additional explanation of the picture?

My naive thought is that if you can find a range of settings where the shots go to the same POI, set the tuner in the middle of the range, & call it tuned.

Regards,
Ron

Maybe Gene can provide that info. It's my understanding that he uses the tuner a bit differently than I do. I think he gets he best tuner setting, locks it down and then adjusts the load as conditions change. maybe he will clarify that.

IME, any change of the tuner setting will change the POI. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my changes are all very small, but all have an effect.
Last Saturday, when I began shooting, I had a little more than a bullet overlap of vertical. I moved the tuner to the left about 1/8" and removed the vertical. I don't think picking a "range" of settings would work as each adjustment, no matter how small will have an effect. It seems that what you are looking for is a way to shoot without changing the tuner settings. You could do this, but IMO it would defeat the purpose. I go to every match preloaded. The tuner gives me the ability to change the tune as the day warms up or as is frequently the case, change the tune when the day begins much colder than when I previously tuned it.

I look forward to Gene's input on this.

Rick

mks
03-11-2015, 02:10 PM
Have you all seen this before ??
all shots have been fired with the same load Point of aim is the center of the X -- the only difference is the position of the tuner ---

Gene,
That is an enlightening test. I just want to point out a difference between your test and what "tuner twisters" hope to accomplish when they adjust the tuner throughout the day. Your shots I assume were all made under the same conditions (the same temperature, particularly). Whereas what a tuner adjustment after a temperature change is supposed to do is to bring the response of the rifle back to the same as it was at some previous temperature. That is, we want the angular position and angular velocity of the muzzle when the bullet exits to be the same as before, which gives us the same POI and the same compensation for variation in barrel exit time.

What happens when temperature increases is that the bullet exits earlier and MV increases. Then we try to compensate by changing the dynamic response of the barrel to make it move quicker. Change B to bring us back to level, even though it was A changed, so to speak. Because the response of the barrel after the muzzle mass is shifted can be different in a number of ways, the adjustment may be imperfect, and not restore the POI and/or compensation exactly.

I am probably telling you something you already know. This may be your reasoning behind leaving the tuner alone, and bringing bullet exit time and MV back to the same by using less powder. It make sense. By doing so, there is a greater likelihood that all the conditions will be the same. All I can say is that adjusting the tuner sometimes does pretty well, and is more convenient. I have not seen large shifts in POI when I adjust the tuner along with a temperature change, but I do when I adjust it at constant temperature.

Cheers,
Keith

mwezell
03-11-2015, 02:51 PM
Gene,
That is an enlightening test. I just want to point out a difference between your test and what "tuner twisters" hope to accomplish when they adjust the tuner throughout the day. Your shots I assume were all made under the same conditions (the same temperature, particularly). Whereas what a tuner adjustment after a temperature change is supposed to do is to bring the response of the rifle back to the same as it was at some previous temperature. That is, we want the angular position and angular velocity of the muzzle when the bullet exits to be the same as before, which gives us the same POI and the same compensation for variation in barrel exit time.

What happens when temperature increases is that the bullet exits earlier and MV increases. Then we try to compensate by changing the dynamic response of the barrel to make it move quicker. Change B to bring us back to level, even though it was A changed, so to speak. Because the response of the barrel after the muzzle mass is shifted can be different in a number of ways, the adjustment may be imperfect, and not restore the POI and/or compensation exactly.

I am probably telling you something you already know. This may be your reasoning behind leaving the tuner alone, and bringing bullet exit time and MV back to the same by using less powder. It make sense. By doing so, there is a greater likelihood that all the conditions will be the same. All I can say is that adjusting the tuner sometimes does pretty well, and is more convenient. I have not seen large shifts in POI when I adjust the tuner along with a temperature change, but I do when I adjust it at constant temperature.

Cheers,
Keith

Well said..again.

mks
03-14-2015, 11:37 PM
I think that's close to what I was referring to as a ladder test with the tuner. Can you provide some additional explanation of the picture?

My naive thought is that if you can find a range of settings where the shots go to the same POI, set the tuner in the middle of the range, & call it tuned.

Regards,
Ron

I think the range of tuner settings we want to use would be one over which POI decreases smoothly as the tuner is moved in (toward the receiver). Stay away from any range where jumps occur. You could leave it in the middle of the range and tune with powder charge, or you could leave powder charge constant and move the tuner as temperature changes. You have to change something to keep it tuned.

Gene, I wonder if the tuner settings at which the peaks and valleys in your POI occur depend on temperature. I would think so, but have never tested that way.

Thanks,
Keith

Bart
03-15-2015, 10:52 PM
A little different approach with the tuner. Below is a pic of 4 different loads and the same tuner setting. The last group on the right is a little higher impact, but that was due to conditions.

Bart

http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o369/The6ppc/03F517D1-8024-42F5-9AD5-D332AF725C43.png (http://s341.photobucket.com/user/The6ppc/media/03F517D1-8024-42F5-9AD5-D332AF725C43.png.html)

TSI243
03-15-2015, 10:53 PM
In the previous photograph, as the tuner is turned out, with everything else left alone -- temperature stays the same -- load is the same -- the only change is turning out the tuner 1/4 turn for every shot -- and shooting at the next X on the paper--

nobody caught that the impacts have more or less formed a sign wave --- and keep forming sign waves as the tuner is turned out

Couple of other things:

after I set my tuner I never move it again on that particular barrel---NEVER!!!

I am not smart enough to tune, with a tuner, during a match -- and I find that if I try to change, or better, the tuner setting during practice all that I can accomplish is that I loose that fine spot of perfect tune!!!--it doesn't matter what the weather is doing, if I play with the tuner, I can change POI -- or I can change how my group looks but I can never find a better tuner sweet spot that will shoot as small as my original setting!!!

after the tuner is set in the sweet spot -- and your rifle looses it's tune, find tune again by changing the powder charge-- do not mess with the tuner -- all you are doing is taking the tuner off of the sweet spot for that barrel !!!

In my experience tuner settings are not temperature sensitive, or humidity sensitive --or any other sensitive --- they are mostly sensitive to the harmonics of the particular barrel that the tuner is on ---

Atmospheric conditions will certainly affect tune --- and it's easy to fool your self into thinking you are doing some good by tweaking your tuner -- cause tweeting the tuner will change things ---

Gene

r44astro
03-16-2015, 08:38 AM
Bart,
How much difference in powder charge?
Bill

Bart
03-16-2015, 10:22 AM
Bart,
How much difference in powder charge?
Bill

Increase by 3 tenths each group with 133.

r44astro
03-17-2015, 08:30 AM
Increase by 3 tenths each group with 133.

Thanks Bart!
Bill

Greyfox
03-17-2015, 06:25 PM
In the previous photograph, as the tuner is turned out, with everything else left alone -- temperature stays the same -- load is the same -- the only change is turning out the tuner 1/4 turn for every shot -- and shooting at the next X on the paper--

nobody caught that the impacts have more or less formed a sign wave --- and keep forming sign waves as the tuner is turned out

Couple of other things:

after I set my tuner I never move it again on that particular barrel---NEVER!!!

I am not smart enough to tune, with a tuner, during a match -- and I find that if I try to change, or better, the tuner setting during practice all that I can accomplish is that I loose that fine spot of perfect tune!!!--it doesn't matter what the weather is doing, if I play with the tuner, I can change POI -- or I can change how my group looks but I can never find a better tuner sweet spot that will shoot as small as my original setting!!!

after the tuner is set in the sweet spot -- and your rifle looses it's tune, find tune again by changing the powder charge-- do not mess with the tuner -- all you are doing is taking the tuner off of the sweet spot for that barrel !!!

In my experience tuner settings are not temperature sensitive, or humidity sensitive --or any other sensitive --- they are mostly sensitive to the harmonics of the particular barrel that the tuner is on ---

Atmospheric conditions will certainly affect tune --- and it's easy to fool your self into thinking you are doing some good by tweaking your tuner -- cause tweeting the tuner will change things ---

Gene

Gene,
I have heard and understood for some time that you set the tuner and did not move it, but rather changed the powder charge as needed. There is no question that this has worked well for you. You've said that you are not smart enough to change the tuner setting. I'm on the other side of this, I'm not smart enough to change the powder charge during a match and follow the tune. But that's neither here nor there. Clearly it works for you.

I'm confused about what you say at the end. You say you find the sweet spot for a barrel and never move the tuner again. Then you say that when the barrel loses it's tune, you change the powder charge. I don't understand what the difference is. You say that the tuner settings aren't temperature sensitive, etc. But then you say that atmospheric conditions will affect tune and that you can change that with the powder charge.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I don't understand what you are telling us. If you can change the tune with the powder charge, why can't you change it with the tuner setting? I never change the powder charge, but go to all matches preloaded. I begin each match by shooting 2-3 shots group and changing the tuner setting to what I need. The target tells me that what I'm doing is effective. I don't think I'm fooling myself, but I'm willing to admit it if I'm wrong.

Please clarify what you said if you don't mind.

Rick

Pete Wass
03-18-2015, 05:25 PM
I have often wondered if, perhaps, lighter tuners might take some of the "not being able to move them much" issue away. It would seem to me that being able to change things dramatically with a thou or two movement may indicate too much tuner weight. Has anyone tried a 1 oz tuner weight, for instance? I gave up on them with CF rifles because of their needing to be tweaked often and not knowing which way to go with them. I just go with my best load and take what I can get from it.

Pete

mwezell
03-18-2015, 10:03 PM
I prefer the movement be small. The single most common mistake I see with tuner use is making too big adjustments. I guess it's human nature to assume large adjustments are needed when we can see an inch or so of threads. In my experience, this is not the case...even with tuners that effectively add no weigh....you still move the mass. Imagine a tuner being made from the barrel stub, simply bored and threaded onto the muzzle end of a straight contour barrel and it ending flush with the muzzle. This design still gives adjustability but not the wider tune window of a heavier tuner. To me, it seems simpler to maintain tune within a couple of marks as opposed to a couple of turns.

TSI243
03-19-2015, 09:42 PM
I have heard and understood for some time that you set the tuner and did not move it, but rather changed the powder charge as needed. There is no question that this has worked well for you. You've said that you are not smart enough to change the tuner setting. I'm on the other side of this, I'm not smart enough to change the powder charge during a match and follow the tune. But that's neither here nor there. Clearly it works for you.

I'm confused about what you say at the end. You say you find the sweet spot for a barrel and never move the tuner again. Then you say that when the barrel loses it's tune, you change the powder charge. I don't understand what the difference is. You say that the tuner settings aren't temperature sensitive, etc. But then you say that atmospheric conditions will affect tune and that you can change that with the powder charge.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I don't understand what you are telling us. If you can change the tune with the powder charge, why can't you change it with the tuner setting? I never change the powder charge, but go to all matches preloaded. I begin each match by shooting 2-3 shots group and changing the tuner setting to what I need. The target tells me that what I'm doing is effective. I don't think I'm fooling myself, but I'm willing to admit it if I'm wrong.

Please clarify what you said if you don't mind.

Rick


Rick;

let me see if I can clarify my thoughts ??

1) There is no doubt that we can put any powder charge in a rifle and bring that rifle with that charge into a tune by adjusting the tuner.

2) You can also install a tuner on a rifle muzzle anywhere, in any position, lock the tuner down and bring that rifle into a tune by adjusting the powder charge -- as Bart has shown with his post.


But is this as good as that rifle is capable of shooting??? dose that tune produce the smallest groups ??? or dose the rifle still have a little bit in it ??? maybe it's only .010 smaller maybe it's .050 smaller ?? Whatever it is, I want it!!! and I want it all!!

In my opinion neither of those tunes (method 1 or 2 ) will be the best sweetest tune for that rifle, barrel, tuner assembly. unless you just got lucky?? which dose happened

I find that if I use method 1 or 2 to tune a rifle my final tune may not be the tightest, smallest shooting tune that the rifle is capable of, it may tend to be spikey ??? (is that even a word???) and the rifle can, and will, loose it's tune very quickly if conditions change.

I find that if I take the time to find a barrels sweet spot and then set the tuner on top of that sweet spot my gun will hold it's tune thru a much wider window of climatic changes, and if it dose want to drift out of tune, it's just that, a drift out of tune, not a violent change in tune giving me a .3XX or .4XX group with no warning.

I have shot an entire Super Shoot -- all 4 days without changing my powder charge at all --- I stayed with the same tuner setting and the same load all week -- and the rifle never lost it's tune -- I won that SS--- That's what I call a sweet spot in the tune window. --That's how a rifle will act if you find that spot

While I find it quite common to be able to use the same powder charge all weekend long, there are times when that just won't hold true, and my rifle drifts out of it's fine tune. It is those times that I will adjust my powder charge -- usually by adding a small amount of powder.

After I have my tuner set on the barrels sweet spot I will never move it again till that barrel is thru!!

Hope this helps

Gene

JerrySharrett
03-20-2015, 06:03 AM
The problem I had in 2005 with light weight tuners was that just every few adjustments there was a sweet spot. Not necessarily the sweetest spot but a point at where THAT barrel would shoot better than it did without the tuner installed.

Rimfire shooters who have used tuners exclusively for years have the luxury of shooting hundreds if not thousands of rounds to find the sweetest of sweet spots without wearing out THAT barrel, centerfire shooters do not have that luxury.

After Fudd Hamilton made the centerfire tuners for me that had some heft to them I found, at least to my satisfaction, I could bring a barrel into tune where it would shoot competitively without moving it again. Whatever results the shooter got after that was not the tuners fault, if the results were bad, or to its credit if the results were good, but was how the shooter performed his (or her ) part.

I vote for Gene B's method of setting the tuner and leaving it alone.

Greyfox
03-20-2015, 07:24 AM
I have heard and understood for some time that you set the tuner and did not move it, but rather changed the powder charge as needed. There is no question that this has worked well for you. You've said that you are not smart enough to change the tuner setting. I'm on the other side of this, I'm not smart enough to change the powder charge during a match and follow the tune. But that's neither here nor there. Clearly it works for you.

I'm confused about what you say at the end. You say you find the sweet spot for a barrel and never move the tuner again. Then you say that when the barrel loses it's tune, you change the powder charge. I don't understand what the difference is. You say that the tuner settings aren't temperature sensitive, etc. But then you say that atmospheric conditions will affect tune and that you can change that with the powder charge.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I don't understand what you are telling us. If you can change the tune with the powder charge, why can't you change it with the tuner setting? I never change the powder charge, but go to all matches preloaded. I begin each match by shooting 2-3 shots group and changing the tuner setting to what I need. The target tells me that what I'm doing is effective. I don't think I'm fooling myself, but I'm willing to admit it if I'm wrong.

Please clarify what you said if you don't mind.

Rick


Rick;

let me see if I can clarify my thoughts ??

1) There is no doubt that we can put any powder charge in a rifle and bring that rifle with that charge into a tune by adjusting the tuner.

2) You can also install a tuner on a rifle muzzle anywhere, in any position, lock the tuner down and bring that rifle into a tune by adjusting the powder charge -- as Bart has shown with his post.


But is this as good as that rifle is capable of shooting??? dose that tune produce the smallest groups ??? or dose the rifle still have a little bit in it ??? maybe it's only .010 smaller maybe it's .050 smaller ?? Whatever it is, I want it!!! and I want it all!!

In my opinion neither of those tunes (method 1 or 2 ) will be the best sweetest tune for that rifle, barrel, tuner assembly. unless you just got lucky?? which dose happened

I find that if I use method 1 or 2 to tune a rifle my final tune may not be the tightest, smallest shooting tune that the rifle is capable of, it may tend to be spikey ??? (is that even a word???) and the rifle can, and will, loose it's tune very quickly if conditions change.

I find that if I take the time to find a barrels sweet spot and then set the tuner on top of that sweet spot my gun will hold it's tune thru a much wider window of climatic changes, and if it dose want to drift out of tune, it's just that, a drift out of tune, not a violent change in tune giving me a .3XX or .4XX group with no warning.

I have shot an entire Super Shoot -- all 4 days without changing my powder charge at all --- I stayed with the same tuner setting and the same load all week -- and the rifle never lost it's tune -- I won that SS--- That's what I call a sweet spot in the tune window. --That's how a rifle will act if you find that spot

While I find it quite common to be able to use the same powder charge all weekend long, there are times when that just won't hold true, and my rifle drifts out of it's fine tune. It is those times that I will adjust my powder charge -- usually by adding a small amount of powder.

After I have my tuner set on the barrels sweet spot I will never move it again till that barrel is thru!!

Hope this helps

Gene

Gene,
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your methods and why you do what you do. Yes, it did help me to understand you.

Rick

mwezell
03-20-2015, 07:25 AM
Just for grins, lets try and understand how a barrel stays in a given sweet spot through different temps. Here's a video of a tuning fork that is rung after taking it out of a freezer. The frequency changes rather quickly as it comes back up to room temp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdWIl9AcZsk

Pete Wass
03-20-2015, 06:28 PM
I prefer the movement be small. The single most common mistake I see with tuner use is making too big adjustments. I guess it's human nature to assume large adjustments are needed when we can see an inch or so of threads. In my experience, this is not the case...even with tuners that effectively add no weigh....you still move the mass. Imagine a tuner being made from the barrel stub, simply bored and threaded onto the muzzle end of a straight contour barrel and it ending flush with the muzzle. This design still gives adjustability but not the wider tune window of a heavier tuner. To me, it seems simpler to maintain tune within a couple of marks as opposed to a couple of turns.

was most often when Tune goes away, the conditions are so bad it is pretty hard to tell if tuner changes were effective. Most of the ranges I have frequented are like shooting in a shoe box so by mid day, one is often hard pressed to even be able to read the flags, the wind being so switchy. I had hoped someone might come up with a system using "Density Altitude", for instance to direct one on tuner changes. I have always been willing to pay someone well for one but have yet to see one offered for sale.

Pete


Pete

mwezell
03-20-2015, 10:48 PM
was most often when Tune goes away, the conditions are so bad it is pretty hard to tell if tuner changes were effective. Most of the ranges I have frequented are like shooting in a shoe box so by mid day, one is often hard pressed to even be able to read the flags, the wind being so switchy. I had hoped someone might come up with a system using "Density Altitude", for instance to direct one on tuner changes. I have always been willing to pay someone well for one but have yet to see one offered for sale.

Pete


Pete
Pete, when I first began testing tuners, in 2007, I worked pretty hard on just that. The best I could do was 70-75% repeatable based on temps. I've talked with others who didn't fair that well. While I feel we can get close with a pretty good success rate, I don't think we are yet to the point of being able to adjust without trustworthy sighters..consistently. If faced with having to adjust with no sighters, I think I can do it better than most..but not with 100% confidence. It helps that I've not shot without a tuner since 2008. To me it's much easier than chasing tune with powder charge or seating depth. IME tuners allow me to get whatever the gun and load or ammo have to offer, out of them. They won't make a gun or load good unless it's already good at another temp. They won't fix bad barrels, bullets, loads or wind reading errors...etc.

mks
03-21-2015, 12:27 PM
1) There is no doubt that we can put any powder charge in a rifle and bring that rifle with that charge into a tune by adjusting the tuner.

2) You can also install a tuner on a rifle muzzle anywhere, in any position, lock the tuner down and bring that rifle into a tune by adjusting the powder charge -- as Bart has shown with his post.

In my opinion neither of those tunes (method 1 or 2 ) will be the best sweetest tune for that rifle, barrel, tuner assembly. unless you just got lucky?? which dose happened

I find that if I use method 1 or 2 to tune a rifle my final tune may not be the tightest, smallest shooting tune that the rifle is capable of, it may tend to be spikey ??? (is that even a word???) and the rifle can, and will, loose it's tune very quickly if conditions change.

I find that if I take the time to find a barrels sweet spot and then set the tuner on top of that sweet spot my gun will hold it's tune thru a much wider window of climatic changes, and if it dose want to drift out of tune, it's just that, a drift out of tune, not a violent change in tune giving me a .3XX or .4XX group with no warning.

Gene[/QUOTE]

Gene,
We would all love to find such a wide tune window, the sweetest of the sweet spots. With several powder charges and thousands of tuner settings, not to mention a wide range of temperature, how do you find this sweetest spot without firing so many groups that the barrel is shot out before we find it? In particular, Bart used 20 shots to find the best powder charge at one tuner setting and temperature. If we do the same test for ten temperatures and just 100 tuner settings, that would be 20,000 shots to try all the combinations. That obviously isn't the answer.

Thanks,
Keith

mks
03-21-2015, 12:54 PM
Just for grins, lets try and understand how a barrel stays in a given sweet spot through different temps. Here's a video of a tuning fork that is rung after taking it out of a freezer. The frequency changes rather quickly as it comes back up to room temp.


Mike,
I think most of us, myself included, assume that the mechanical properties of the steel in the barrel don't change much with temperature over the range of temperatures that we shoot. But your video shows that something is changing. A 20" barrel increases in length by a bit over 0.0001" for each degree F of temperature increase. Aside from adjusting for decreasing bullet exit time, part of the reason for moving the tuner in with increasing temperature could be to compensate for the growth in the barrel.

Cheers,
Keith