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James M.
12-06-2014, 09:28 AM
When I started shooting short range Benchrest in 1997, almost everyone shot flat base bullets. There were exceptions like Gary Ocock, but for the most part the great shooters shot the flat base bullets since at 100/200 yards the BT did not improve the ballistic coefficient very much...if at all. Also, the shooters seemed to prefer slower twists in their barrels (14-15"). The switch to faster twist and BT bullets seemed to start about 7 or 8 years ago. Also, in this period of time several of the men who made great FB bullets have passed away. This includes Ed Watson, Skip Otto, Del Bishop, and Phil Sauer. Well enough of my ramblings. I will include a picture of several great FB bullets made on different length jackets. There are three bullets that are listed as .770. No, that is not a typo, but a bullet made by the late Del Bishop. He had some method of cutting jackets to custom lengths. George U., if you happen to be perusing this site, tell us what you think the ogive for these bullets are. We miss your input on bullet and die questions. James Mock

Uthink Uknow
12-06-2014, 09:56 AM
Who did I hear inherited or bought Del's "stuff"?

Jeff Whitt
12-06-2014, 12:59 PM
I think Larry Boers

rkittine
12-06-2014, 01:10 PM
As I am new to this game, I will ask the question that I thought that this thread would have offered. As I understand it, for the short range game, the use of lower weight projectiles is STILL the mainstay and the slower twist is so that the bullets do not fragment. Is this still true? Or is there a Non-Flat Base light weight projectile that has taken the lead? Have been told to have a 1:14 twist in 6mmBR if I want to shoot the short discipline and a 1:8 Twist if I want to shoot the heavy, say 107 Gr. Berger VLDs that require a fast turn to stabilize, if I want to shoot the long range game.

Thanks, Bob

Wilbur
12-07-2014, 02:26 AM
Bob, what exactly are you referring to when you say "short discipline"?

JerrySharrett
12-07-2014, 06:07 AM
When I started shooting short range Benchrest in 1997, almost everyone shot flat base bullets. There were exceptions like Gary Ocock, but for the most part the great shooters shot the flat base bullets since at 100/200 yards the BT did not improve the ballistic coefficient very much...if at all. Also, the shooters seemed to prefer slower twists in their barrels (14-15"). The switch to faster twist and BT bullets seemed to start about 7 or 8 years ago. Also, in this period of time several of the men who made great FB bullets have passed away. This includes Ed Watson, Skip Otto, Del Bishop, and Phil Sauer. Well enough of my ramblings. I will include a picture of several great FB bullets made on different length jackets. There are three bullets that are listed as .770. No, that is not a typo, but a bullet made by the late Del Bishop. He had some method of cutting jackets to custom lengths. George U., if you happen to be perusing this site, tell us what you think the ogive for these bullets are. We miss your input on bullet and die questions. James Mock

James, great flat-base bullet makers are still with us. Lowell, Hottenstein, Gary Connaway Brady Knight, Bart Sauter, just to name a few. Along the nostalgic line of thinking, I'm working on going back to a 6-ogive nose, .750 jacket and 14.5 twist the same idea Jef Fowler used to get in the HOF shooting in Midland Texas where the wind NEVER blows.

Now if George Ulrich can just find that old die, I have a bucket of old J4's in 750 and a Ross Sherman die. That die may not be exact a 6 but it is a secant ogive.

Besides, I have always told myself I'm not smart enough to shoot boat-tails. Ferris Pindells best wind bullet was about 85 grains, on a 0.9 something jacket and had a "needlepoint". Ask Don Geraci about that bullet.

James M.
12-07-2014, 08:06 AM
You're right Jerry; there are still great FB bullet makers. Ronnie Cheek makes a great 62 gr. bullet on the .750 jacket, and Bart's Ultra 68gr FB has a great pedigree for winning big matches. You might check on the "little uglies" with which Tom LIbby has had great success. They were first made by Don Spencer and later by Del Bishop. Tom may have the dies for them. They were a low ogive number (5 or 6) and may have been a double ogive. One thing that I know is that they were " poison" at 100 yards. Good shooting...James

rkittine
12-07-2014, 08:36 AM
100-200-300 Yards

Bob

JerrySharrett
12-07-2014, 08:41 AM
You're right Jerry; there are still great FB bullet makers. Ronnie Cheek makes a great 62 gr. bullet on the .750 jacket, and Bart's Ultra 68gr FB has a great pedigree for winning big matches. You might check on the "little uglies" with which Tom LIbby has had great success. They were first made by Don Spencer and later by Del Bishop. Tom may have the dies for them. They were a low ogive number (5 or 6) and may have been a double ogive. One thing that I know is that they were " poison" at 100 yards. Good shooting...James

I have some Ronnie Cheeks, in the camper I think?? And some of Barts Ultras he made about 5-6 years ago, anyhow we were shooting at Mickeys when I got these.

And guess what, I just came across some 62/790's made by Brady on a Ross Sherman die. The nose on that bullet looks about like 6.5 ogive if Conway's 6/9 nose bullet is a true 6. Good news there, I just talked to Brady and he still has that die!!

Dave Tooley
12-07-2014, 10:41 AM
And now we've completed yet another lap and end up back where we started.

Dave

Dusty Stevens
12-07-2014, 10:55 AM
And now we've completed yet another lap and end up back where we started.

Dave

Some folks never leave Dave. FB bullets are still very popular. I guess its all in the barrel you prefer to use

JerrySharrett
12-07-2014, 12:59 PM
And now we've completed yet another lap and end up back where we started.

Dave

It'll be more fun the second time around.

If you and Summers had found that die all mine and Georges hard labors would have ben saved.

Actually this die wasn't at Claudia's when you guys went to help her. Supposedly it had been gone some
10 years or so.

JerrySharrett
12-07-2014, 01:03 PM
Actschully, how many HOF points did Tony get with the old stuff and how many has he won lately?

Actschully= a word my spell checker doesn't like at all!!

afrench
12-07-2014, 01:22 PM
here's a question for the guys that have been around a while.

when did cut rifled barrels come on the scene?? i haven't been around for that long and the popular barrel makers are basically the same as when i started.

JerrySharrett
12-07-2014, 01:56 PM
here's a question for the guys that have been around a while.

when did cut rifled barrels come on the scene?? i haven't been around for that long and the popular barrel makers are basically the same as when i started.

Hey to Lubbock, again not a smart a$$ answer but cut rifle barrels were the first ones made with the advent of "rifled" barrels in the muzzle loader days. Historically, I would guess buttoned barrels are very new since the buttons are made of tungsten carbide and we have only had that material since about 1955 or so when General Electric started marketing the Carboloy tool material.

My next door neighbor had an old rifle cutting machine his granddad used in the late 1800's when he was a gun maker in Claiborne County Tennessee. The guide with the twist in it is made of wood and he had his granddads old lathe used to drill a barrel. That old lathe was made of wood with a big wooden flywheel, a drive belt, and a pedal setup like a sewing machine. Unfortunately he died about 10 years ago and I guess his sons burned the stuff.

afrench
12-07-2014, 05:57 PM
Hey to Lubbock, again not a smart a$$ answer but cut rifle barrels were the first ones made with the advent of "rifled" barrels in the muzzle loader days. Historically, I would guess buttoned barrels are very new since the buttons are made of tungsten carbide and we have only had that material since about 1955 or so when General Electric started marketing the Carboloy tool material.

My next door neighbor had an old rifle cutting machine his granddad used in the late 1800's when he was a gun maker in Claiborne County Tennessee. The guide with the twist in it is made of wood and he had his granddads old lathe used to drill a barrel. That old lathe was made of wood with a big wooden flywheel, a drive belt, and a pedal setup like a sewing machine. Unfortunately he died about 10 years ago and I guess his sons burned the stuff.

Thanks, Jerry.

what i meant by 'on the scene' was, when did the major, short range BR matches seem to change favor from button to cut rifled?

or, when did this:
2004 Nats at Kelbly's
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx119/frenchy524/BRC%20target%20feedback/2004Kelblysnats-1.jpg (http://s747.photobucket.com/user/frenchy524/media/BRC%20target%20feedback/2004Kelblysnats-1.jpg.html)

and this:
2005 nats at Fairchance
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx119/frenchy524/BRC%20target%20feedback/2005fairchancetop20-1.jpg (http://s747.photobucket.com/user/frenchy524/media/BRC%20target%20feedback/2005fairchancetop20-1.jpg.html)

change to this:
2013 nbrsa nats
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx119/frenchy524/BRC%20target%20feedback/2013nbrsanats-1.jpg (http://s747.photobucket.com/user/frenchy524/media/BRC%20target%20feedback/2013nbrsanats-1.jpg.html)

with my limited experience, i'm guessing that boattail bullets probably had something to do with the change. or, vise versa. chicken or the egg??

i'm with you, i don't feel like i'm on top of my game enough to use BTs at this point. just one more variable that i don't need right now.

Wilbur
12-08-2014, 07:35 AM
100-200-300 Yards

Bob

You mentioned a 6mmBR. A 6PPC would be a better choice at these yardages - on average.

Added after re-reading your post - A 6PPC, 14 or so twist give or take an inch, shooting 62 to 68 grain bullets. Go past 300 yards and this is not the better recommendation.

DeltaBravo
12-08-2014, 11:06 AM
OK, I'm a little confused here - nothing new! What is so different about boat tails that two folks (Jerry and afrench) say they're not "smart" enough or on their game enough to use them? I'm shooting BTs and love them. What's so different/better/easier about the FBs?

I shoot VFS at my club (Austin Rifle Club) and while I'm giving up a lot to the 30s with my 6BR, I can hold my own and am improving with my wind reading skills. If I can get them up to a consistently high level, I think I can win a tad more frequently with my 6.

So please help me understand this! Thanks and Happy Holidays!!!!

Dennis

JerrySharrett
12-08-2014, 11:15 AM
OK, I'm a little confused here - nothing new! What is so different about boat tails that two folks (Jerry and afrench) say they're not "smart" enough or on their game enough to use them? I'm shooting BTs and love them. What's so different/better/easier about the FBs?

I shoot VFS at my club (Austin Rifle Club) and while I'm giving up a lot to the 30s with my 6BR, I can hold my own and am improving with my wind reading skills. If I can get them up to a consistently high level, I think I can win a tad more frequently with my 6.

So please help me understand this! Thanks and Happy Holidays!!!!

Dennis

Dennis, what is so different is you are shooting VFS at the club level. That is a whole different set of accuracy requirements than shooting the SUper Shoot, IBS Nationals, NBRSA Nationals. etc.

And Merry Christmas to you (I don't do this happy holidays crap)!!!!!

DeltaBravo
12-08-2014, 11:31 AM
Jerry,

Merry Christmas to you too! Thanks for the reply, but it doesn't really answer my question. I understand that my accuracy needs are quite a bit less for what I'm doing, but why would FBs be better? Are they easier to tune, or shoot, or do they fight the wind better? That's what I'm confused about. I'm shooting Hottenstein 68 BTs and will be switching to Barts 68 BTs this week (ran out of the Hottensteins), and Bart has won a few matches with his new 65 BT so you can understand my confusion, I hope!

Dennis

afrench
12-08-2014, 01:44 PM
OK, I'm a little confused here - nothing new! What is so different about boat tails that two folks (Jerry and afrench) say they're not "smart" enough or on their game enough to use them? I'm shooting BTs and love them. What's so different/better/easier about the FBs?

I shoot VFS at my club (Austin Rifle Club) and while I'm giving up a lot to the 30s with my 6BR, I can hold my own and am improving with my wind reading skills. If I can get them up to a consistently high level, I think I can win a tad more frequently with my 6.

So please help me understand this! Thanks and Happy Holidays!!!!

Dennis

Dennis,

the boattails just seem more touchy or sensitive to me. if i'm a little off on powder on seating depth, i feel like the FBs are more forgiving. and, that could entirely be just in my head...

i've committed to shooting BTs for an entire weekend at a few matches, and have shot some nice individual groups with them. but my aggs were worse than with FBs.

i'll probably start to play with them again this next year just to see if any of the bugs i've worked out will change my point of view on this.

skeetlee
12-08-2014, 05:55 PM
I to was reluctant to shoot a BT at one time. Keep in mind im not a world champion by any means but I do shoot a bunch. FOR ME The BT just took a little different approach, compared to a FB. Not a lot different though. seating depth was a a bit different as was powder charge weight. keeping the load in tune was or is basic practices. Simple enough to figure out.
I wasn't even going to mess with a BT bullet, but I traded for some of Barts new 68GR BT on Sierra jackets and those babies flat freaking shot. I am about out now, so I will be making another purchase soon. I just hope the new jacketed bullets shoot as well as the sierras do. Lee

JerrySharrett
12-08-2014, 09:51 PM
Guys think about this, a boattail bullet of any given jacket length or point radius has less of the straight cylindrical part that rides in the barrel and adjusts the bullet to fit in the barrel. There is a condition called "in-bore yaw". Yaw is from an old aeronautical term for "sideways". The more yaw the bullet has at exit the less stable its flight path is and the longer it takes the bullet to "go to sleep".

An older fairly well known bullet maker puts a lot of importance on how long it takes a bullet to go to sleep (thanks Mr WB) and seems certain the wobbly bullet is more effected by the wind than a smoothly spinning bullet. Makes sense to me!

Notice how the really knowledgeable shooters spend time and attention to the shape of hole a bullet is making in the target to see if it went through straight or slightly sideways.

You guys who shoot long range these newer VLD and Super VLD's with the greater unsupported overhang know these bullets are harder to get to shoot than the old LTB's. Why? For one reason the newer pointy bullets need to be given more attention to how well they are seated. Same thing on these newer double ogive bullets.

Bart
12-08-2014, 10:51 PM
Jerry,

A lot of folks don't know this but, Ed Watson's first bullet die was a Simonson. He never made many bullets on it. His Rorschach dies showed up at about the same time. The Rorschach dies make a much prettier pointy bullet! The Simonson die makes a small diameter bullet that has an ogive that looks like a black diamond watermelon! Kind of like the movie Twins, comparing Arnold Schwarzenegger to Danny Devito! If you're looking for a LOW ogive bullet I can get you some to play with.

Bart

JerrySharrett
12-09-2014, 05:44 AM
Jerry,

A lot of folks don't know this but, Ed Watson's first bullet die was a Simonson. He never made many bullets on it. His Rorschach dies showed up at about the same time. The Rorschach dies make a much prettier pointy bullet! The Simonson die makes a small diameter bullet that has an ogive that looks like a black diamond watermelon! Kind of like the movie Twins, comparing Arnold Schwarzenegger to Danny Devito! If you're looking for a LOW ogive bullet I can get you some to play with.

Bart

Ha!! A Black Diamond watermelon, is that anything like a Tiger Stripe melon the Mr & Mrs Brady's served one time? Do you offer the Black Diamonds in 66 and 68 grain. I guess they are boat tailed by definition?

On the little ugly nosed bullets I'd like to try them. We could call them "Puguglys". I'm looking for a simple minded bullet that will stay in tune for simple minded shooters...like me!

(Hows the long range bullet project going? I hope I don't get started on this fat bullet vs skinny bullet thing too. Some of the Ross Sherman bullets were 2345)


Edit- Ha again, make some with a large meplat and we can call them butt-uglys!!

Dave Tooley
12-09-2014, 08:17 AM
An older fairly well known bullet maker puts a lot of importance on how long it takes a bullet to go to sleep (thanks Mr WB) and seems certain the wobbly bullet is more effected by the wind than a smoothly spinning bullet. Makes sense to me!

Notice how the really knowledgeable shooters spend time and attention to the shape of hole a bullet is making in the target to see if it went through straight or slightly sideways.

You guys who shoot long range these newer VLD and Super VLD's with the greater unsupported overhang know these bullets are harder to get to shoot than the old LTB's. Why? For one reason the newer pointy bullets need to be given more attention to how well they are seated. Same thing on these newer double ogive bullets.

Jerry,

I can confirm that bullets that still have inflight yaw are affected differently during flight than those without yaw. My testing of the relationship between meplat shape/uniformity and BC uniformity pointed directly to inflight yaw as the culprit. The lack of inflight yaw yielded a reduce ES in the BC. While bullets that still had observed yaw have a much higher ES.

Dave

JerrySharrett
12-09-2014, 02:34 PM
Jerry,

I can confirm that bullets that still have inflight yaw are affected differently during flight than those without yaw. My testing of the relationship between meplat shape/uniformity and BC uniformity pointed directly to inflight yaw as the culprit. The lack of inflight yaw yielded a reduce ES in the BC. While bullets that still had observed yaw have a much higher ES.

Dave

Dave, just got a note from my buddy in Kansas. WT 6-point 388 yds, 257 Robt AI we built, deer #7 so far! (Barnes 80g TSX BT 1 shot!)