PDA

View Full Version : Turbo Bolts!



BRS1965
11-17-2014, 11:25 AM
At the 50/50 Nationals I shared a bench with gunsmith Alan Hall. Both my sporter and heavy gun are built by Turbo and smithed by Eck. I've had a lot of trouble with the sporter bolt, replaced the spring, still had misfires, etc. Alan showed me his new designed firing pin and spring for the Turbo and explained that it was 1/3 the weight of the original Turbo firing pin, and this results in a much faster lock time. In addition, the spring has much less spring tension since it is much lighter and faster. This results in less vibration following the shot, as the lighter pin and spring doesn't disturb the rifle as much.

Anyway, I sent my sporter bolt home with Alan to install his new designed pin, and was surprised that I had it back within a week! I took it to the range for some testing and noticed right away that the bolt closed much easier and smoother, without the tension I was used to when closing the bolt. The rifle functioned fine and I won the sporter match at Gateway the following Saturday with a 248-15x in some switchy conditions. http://benchrest.com/images/icons/icon11.png

Gordon just delivered my Turbo heavy gun a year ago and it shoots better than I can. However, the one complaint I had was the "stiffness" when closing the bolt. I had to be careful not to upset the rifle in the bags when I closed it. After my pleasant change in closing the bolt on my sporter, I talked with Alan again and he assured me the much less tension on the spring with his design is what makes the bolt close so much easier. Ok, I sent him my heavy gun bolt and again had it back within a week. I took it to the range last Saturday and I'm so pleased with the ease of closing the bolt, the quicker lock time, and much less vibration on ignition.

Alan charges $200 plus shipping to convert your bolt, and, if you don't like the finished product, he will convert it back to the original for no additional cost. From my experience, once you shoot Alan's bolt revision, you won't want to shoot anything else. If you want more information, give Alan a call at 205-755-4094.

Bill Schertz
Ocala, FL

tim
11-17-2014, 04:20 PM
Of course you realize you have essentially eliminated one primary ignition feature designed into the action from Flash right up to current makers of the action.

BRS1965
11-17-2014, 07:18 PM
Of course you realize you have essentially eliminated one primary ignition feature designed into the action from Flash right up to current makers of the action.

Actually Tim, I don't. Can you enlighten me please?

Bill

tim
11-17-2014, 09:14 PM
Right from the get-go these actions were designed, and have evolved with ignition in mind. That ignition is generally accepted to involve a firing pin with enough mass to get the job done.
Some folks are of the belief that lighter and faster might be a better solution. I think if you inquire as to wether this represents a popular movement you will find this to be unlikely. The lock time may be an important consideration for position shooters but not for the BR crowd. I realize Alan has his beliefs and is an accomplished action builder but you may not realize, many, if not most of his actions still out there competing have altered ignition involving greater mass.
I don't know why you had a Sporter done by one of the all time best at building them and didn't get it back to him. Could have been several issues including lubrication, suspect spring, etc. but IMHO you've taken the long way around to go backwards, recent score not withstanding.
Even Stiller's new action has designed into it mass in the firing system.
I think what I've listed here to be rather widely accepted but ultimately, your choice to make.

stiller
11-18-2014, 01:26 AM
Since I was mentioned, I will put my reply in. There are issues that you stated that are definate problems in the Turbo, and they are not easy to fix. The lubrication one is a big one if the bolt is not kept up with in regards to keeping it clean. Hard to do when you lube the cocking cam. The small diameter spring is the other. That is why I designed mine the way I did. I also have the feature that keeps the cocking piece from ever rubbing the action slot or trigger plates. My gut tells me that is a source of flyers in that type of ignition that most people refuse to acknowledge. I believe that either method of mass or light/fast can work. Both have their issues and selling points. I think either one will work if used correctly.

Doug
11-18-2014, 07:06 AM
Allen's design fixes a lot of the problems inherent in the Turbo bolt design with no apparent drawbacks.
Good ignition requires a certain amount of energy. According to Einstein's theory this can be accomplished either through mass or speed (Lock Time).


E = mc2, equation in German-born physicist Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity that showed that the increased relativistic mass (m) of a body comes from the energy of motion of the body—that is, its kinetic energy (E)—divided by the speed of light squared (c2). This equation expresses the fact that mass and energy are the same physical entity and can be changed into each other.

Oklahoma Jim
11-18-2014, 09:06 AM
More in the realm of m(v^2)/2.

DonMatzeder
11-18-2014, 10:27 AM
More in the realm of m(v^2)/2.

faster makes more energy....and the options are, lighter, heavier spring or longer stroke.

rkcal22
11-19-2014, 02:02 PM
Mr. Stiller, your "gut" tells you the way the Turbo action is built can be a source of flyers . Can this be also said of a Falcon action built about 2 years ago. If by chance your answer is yes can it be fixed ? Thanks Richard

stiller
11-19-2014, 03:51 PM
Mr. Stiller, your "gut" tells you the way the Turbo action is built can be a source of flyers . Can this be also said of a Falcon action built about 2 years ago. If by chance your answer is yes can it be fixed ? Thanks Richard

I don't think so. Something needs to "clock" the pin. By design, it uses the cocking piece and the action slot/trigger plates. There is nothing other than the internal slot with the pin through it or the front pin that can clock it. Both of those answers are worse. I used the shroud to locate the cocking piece and a pin in the shroud to locate it to the action. The cocking piece is narrow also such that with clearance, tolerance and any other small gotchas, it can never hit the trigger plates.

The falcon is a different design from the turbo and mine. I am not as familiar with it to state a determination on it.

tim
11-19-2014, 05:13 PM
Jerry, this has turned into an interesting technical discussion. I have a follow up question if I may. Now I have both Turbo II actions as well as a 2500X and understand your point. My question is do you have a sense of the frequency of this side plate drag issue? It is something I have always looked at, never really felt I had an issue with my particular actions.
Are you of the belief that all actions may do it occasionally or some are simply prone to do it?

stiller
11-19-2014, 11:17 PM
I think it tends to drag every time at the beginning of the fall. Closing the bolt it forces it to one side. What happens to it after the trigger fall is the question. I dont know how much it does. Half the time, 5% 1% none???? I don't like the likelyhood nor the inconsistentcy. That is why mine is different. Mine cannot physically drag by design.

No one has done a comparison truly apples to apples on an action yet to say which is better though. One day maybe I will. I have yet to see anyone have any real reason with data or even a decent explanation how the turbo style is better, as some seem to believe. Seems like a lot of pretty awesome shooting guns have been built lately on 2500X's. Lots of them up in your neck of the woods.

tim
11-19-2014, 11:28 PM
I think it tends to drag every time at the beginning of the fall. Closing the bolt it forces it to one side. What happens to it after the trigger fall is the question. I dont know how much it does. Half the time, 5% 1% none???? I don't like the likelyhood nor the inconsistentcy. That is why mine is different. Mine cannot physically drag by design.

No one has done a comparison truly apples to apples on an action yet to say which is better though. One day maybe I will. I have yet to see anyone have any real reason with data or even a decent explanation how the turbo style is better, as some seem to believe. Seems like a lot of pretty awesome shooting guns have been built lately on 2500X's. Lots of them up in your neck of the woods.

No doubt,the 2500X's are definitely gaining traction. I guess I'm still somewhat of a skeptic on the drag frequency issue, I've not seen it to speak of or if it exists, it tends to be largely overwhelmed by a proper spring and mass combo. The better guns up around here don't seem to have, what I'd call, fliers.
Thanks for the thoughts, however.

Pete Wass
11-20-2014, 11:38 PM
I have a Hall Sporter which I have been shooting for 4 years now. When I bought it, it seemed to work fine but after not shooting it very long it started to not extract fired cases. I looked with my borescope and found a big dimple at the top of the chamber. I knew very well I had not dry fired the rifle but the dimple was there nevertheless. I bought one of those tools Midway sells to "Iron " out dimples in chambers and sure enough, the dimple returned after another box of ammo was shot through the rifle.

Took the bolt apart and found someone had added weights which screwed up the length of the pin, which was now extending well beyond the bolt face. Some time after, I went to the Nationals @ Fairchance and found Alan Hall there. I asked him if he would look my bolt over, which he did. He saw the "Weights" which he proceeded to throw as far as he could throw them and configured the bolt to it's original condition. The rifle has worked just fine since.

In spite of what has been said about Alan's thinking on lock time, etc, I don't see but what his thinking is valid. My Sporter shoots way better than I do all the time and has begun to shoot a few 250's. From my experience with the added weights, all I got was the chance to buy a new tool to correct the damage done by their having been added.

Pete

Peter Armstrong
11-21-2014, 04:50 PM
I have a Hall Sporter which I have been shooting for 4 years now. When I bought it, it seemed to work fine but after not shooting it very long it started to not extract fired cases. I looked with my borescope and found a big dimple at the top of the chamber. I knew very well I had not dry fired the rifle but the dimple was there nevertheless. I bought one of those tools Midway sells to "Iron " out dimples in chambers and sure enough, the dimple returned after another box of ammo was shot through the rifle.

Took the bolt apart and found someone had added weights which screwed up the length of the pin, which was now extending well beyond the bolt face. Some time after, I went to the Nationals @ Fairchance and found Alan Hall there. I asked him if he would look my bolt over, which he did. He saw the "Weights" which he proceeded to throw as far as he could throw them and configured the bolt to it's original condition. The rifle has worked just fine since.

In spite of what has been said about Alan's thinking on lock time, etc, I don't see but what his thinking is valid. My Sporter shoots way better than I do all the time and has begun to shoot a few 250's. From my experience with the added weights, all I got was the chance to buy a new tool to correct the damage done by their having been added.

Pete

Pete

Having played with a few Hall bolts I can say for a fact the only way the firing pin can touch the barrel is if the firing pin is too long and any weights on or off would make zero difference.

Uncocked your bolt and look at the tip of the firing pin sticking out, ideally the tip should be 5-10 thou below the end of the bolt.

Peter

stiller
11-21-2014, 07:00 PM
Where a lot of people run into problems dinging chambers is with coned breaches vs cuts. The cone is small enough that it can go into the face and not hit the bolt front before the pin. I really don't like coned breaches for that reason. If the pin is behind the front of the bolts and you are using extractor cuts, its pretty darn hard to ding the chamber.

tim
11-21-2014, 10:44 PM
I'd love to know how that pin went through the entire rim of a case and dinged the chamber.

Pete Wass
11-22-2014, 03:14 PM
I'd love to know how that pin went through the entire rim of a case and dinged the chamber.

but the repeated thumping of the pin on the cases caused a fairly large ding. Once there, it was not easy to take out with the ironing tool and quite quickly re-appeared. Probably should have re-machined it but the tool worked ok after a few sessions.

Pete Wass
11-22-2014, 03:16 PM
Pete

Having played with a few Hall bolts I can say for a fact the only way the firing pin can touch the barrel is if the firing pin is too long and any weights on or off would make zero difference.

Uncocked your bolt and look at the tip of the firing pin sticking out, ideally the tip should be 5-10 thou below the end of the bolt.

Peter

Thank you Peter. The problem has long since been resolved. I did shorten the pin a few thou.

Pete Wass
11-22-2014, 03:19 PM
Where a lot of people run into problems dinging chambers is with coned breaches vs cuts. The cone is small enough that it can go into the face and not hit the bolt front before the pin. I really don't like coned breaches for that reason. If the pin is behind the front of the bolts and you are using extractor cuts, its pretty darn hard to ding the chamber.

I have seen a few other rifles that have had similar problems with pins protruding too far. I carry my tool with me and have loaned it more then once @ matches.

Pete

tim
11-22-2014, 04:58 PM
As you are free to read elsewhere, complete with detail photos, what you describe is a virtual impossibility. My guess is that we have another victim of the " Wass school of gunsmithing". go figure.

tim
11-22-2014, 05:04 PM
As you are free to read elsewhere, complete with detail photos, what you describe is a virtual impossibility. My guess is that we have another victim of the " Wass school of gunsmithing". go figure.
By the way, those weights and the fast over mass thinking started way back with Billy Myers trying to convince Alan what he needed for reliable ignition. They came alive when Gordon Eck started to work on a few and almost every one that occaisionally show up in the winners circle has been changed accordingly. It has greatly improved ignition consistancy.

Pete Wass
11-22-2014, 11:05 PM
As you are free to read elsewhere, complete with detail photos, what you describe is a virtual impossibility. My guess is that we have another victim of the " Wass school of gunsmithing". go figure.
By the way, those weights and the fast over mass thinking started way back with Billy Myers trying to convince Alan what he needed for reliable ignition. They came alive when Gordon Eck started to work on a few and almost every one that occaisionally show up in the winners circle has been changed accordingly. It has greatly improved ignition consistancy.

My rifle shoots better without them somehow. My rifle goes bang every time I pull the trigger. The whole ignition thing in rimfire is way over exaggerated, from what I have observed. I think a great ignition system certainly can't hurt anything but there are lots of rifles out there with pretty simple systems that shoot pretty dern good; as good as their barrels will allow them to shoot. There is a lot of hype in the gun business, like many other businesses. New rifle have to be sold and folks have to work, eh? One still sees 40Xes winning big shoots along with other not so highly regarded gun systems.

The oracle of Syracuse is wrong with his proclamation regarding the impossibility of the chamber dimple, by the way. :)

Pete

tim
11-22-2014, 11:12 PM
Yeah, you're probably right, what do all those dumb gunsmiths know? Besides I'm still working on the mysterious elongating firing pin?

Pete Wass
11-23-2014, 01:45 PM
Yeah, you're probably right, what do all those dumb gunsmiths know? Besides I'm still working on the mysterious elongating firing pin?

It's gonna be a long winter Tim, if you try, you might be able to figure it all out. Meanwhile, Mr. Hall may have been right all along- - - -

Pete

tim
11-23-2014, 02:17 PM
The worlds best "reverse indicator". Has a nice ring to it.

stiller
11-23-2014, 04:48 PM
It is possible to ding a chamber with an extractor cut barrel and a pin that DOES NOT protrude past the end of the bolt. I had a barrel on my Lonestar that was not coned and the pin is .005 behind the end of the bolt. It has a jewell trigger in it and shoots pretty good. I loaned the gun to a shooter at one of our tactical matches. He had never shot a light trigger before so I told him to try it a dozen times in it with a spent case in there just for good measure. Long story short, at the end of this learning, I notice the cases not coming out good. Looking at them shows a dimple. I inspect the barrel and there it is. I ended up ironing it out and then running my reamer in to take anything else out. Its an extreme case, but it happened. Although the brass is softer, it still provided enough toughness to transfer the hit and ding the barrel after thinning out after a few hits.

DonMatzeder
11-23-2014, 07:45 PM
with my first BR gun on the first day I had it. That whole empty case thing is so overrated.....

tim
11-23-2014, 09:06 PM
It is possible to ding a chamber with an extractor cut barrel and a pin that DOES NOT protrude past the end of the bolt. I had a barrel on my Lonestar that was not coned and the pin is .005 behind the end of the bolt. It has a jewell trigger in it and shoots pretty good. I loaned the gun to a shooter at one of our tactical matches. He had never shot a light trigger before so I told him to try it a dozen times in it with a spent case in there just for good measure. Long story short, at the end of this learning, I notice the cases not coming out good. Looking at them shows a dimple. I inspect the barrel and there it is. I ended up ironing it out and then running my reamer in to take anything else out. Its an extreme case, but it happened. Although the brass is softer, it still provided enough toughness to transfer the hit and ding the barrel after thinning out after a few hits.

Sure, I can see how beating multiple times on a spent case can do that, however, friend Peter indicates his happened through normal firing. I'd wager plenty that there's far more to this tale than published.

Pete Wass
11-24-2014, 12:39 AM
Sure, I can see how beating multiple times on a spent case can do that, however, friend Peter indicates his happened through normal firing. I'd wager plenty that there's far more to this tale than published.

Moot point, like many others. How in the world would repeatedly hitting a fired case with a pin that did not protrude past the bolt face differ from hitting a live one? A live one would be thicker wouldn't it ? or are you gonna say the brass got work hardened? I think some barrels are softer than others, ergo, the dimple appears where it wouldn't in others. As I've said, I've seen it more than with my rifles. My Myers did it also. The pin is short enough now so that it doesn't happen; I hope. The new barrel will tell.

Pete