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ewwills
10-21-2014, 06:37 PM
I would like to thank everyone who attended the Nationals at Kettlefoot this past September and I hope you had a great time. I had hoped to have made more progress with the Change in ownership of IR5050 than I have, but progress is being made.
To date we have a new World Record Committee in place and have reviewed 2 potential World Records.
We have contracted a printer nearby for targets and they are being printed now.
Kay and Anna have been doing well learning the ins and outs of getting your scores posted and shoots scheduled They have worked hard and Rachael has been tutoring them. They should be doing it by themselves very shortly.
We have been in touch with Wilbur Harris and Doug Weeter and they have both been very supportive and helpful and I would like to Thank them for their support.
The new website is very close to being launched and with Wilbur's help it should happen soon.
Wallace Putnam has been helping me with the rulebook and we are hoping to get rid of a grey area or two and fix a few of the typos that are in there.
I am thankful for the emails,phone calls and other messages offering your support for Kay, Anna and I. Please be patient with us as we strive to make IR50/50 better.
An update on the range work going on at Kettlefoot:
The new restrooms are almost complete and as soon as they are finished we will finish the Range extension. Concrete will be poured in the Spring. We hope to get the New parking area filled before hard weather. For those of you who asked: The ramp is going away and we will have nice steps with a handrail. All of this to be finished before the Triple Crown next year. Tom and I worked on the Indoor Range yesterday, I hope to have the upgrades finished before our indoor matches start Nov.6.

Again We Thank You for your patience and support and remember, You can reach us at ewwills@btes.tv and ir5050lady@gmail.com we will respond as quickly as possible.

Wayne and Kay Wills
Anna Wills Dowell

tonykharper
10-21-2014, 08:19 PM
I would like to thank everyone who attended the Nationals at Kettlefoot this past September and I hope you had a great time. I had hoped to have made more progress with the Change in ownership of IR5050 than I have, but progress is being made.
To date we have a new World Record Committee in place and have reviewed 2 potential World Records.
We have contracted a printer nearby for targets and they are being printed now.
Kay and Anna have been doing well learning the ins and outs of getting your scores posted and shoots scheduled They have worked hard and Rachael has been tutoring them. They should be doing it by themselves very shortly.
We have been in touch with Wilbur Harris and Doug Weeter and they have both been very supportive and helpful and I would like to Thank them for their support.
The new website is very close to being launched and with Wilbur's help it should happen soon.
Wallace Putnam has been helping me with the rulebook and we are hoping to get rid of a grey area or two and fix a few of the typos that are in there.
I am thankful for the emails,phone calls and other messages offering your support for Kay, Anna and I. Please be patient with us as we strive to make IR50/50 better.
An update on the range work going on at Kettlefoot:
The new restrooms are almost complete and as soon as they are finished we will finish the Range extension. Concrete will be poured in the Spring. We hope to get the New parking area filled before hard weather. For those of you who asked: The ramp is going away and we will have nice steps with a handrail. All of this to be finished before the Triple Crown next year. Tom and I worked on the Indoor Range yesterday, I hope to have the upgrades finished before our indoor matches start Nov.6.

Again We Thank You for your patience and support and remember, You can reach us at ewwills@btes.tv and ir5050lady@gmail.com we will respond as quickly as possible.

Wayne and Kay Wills
Anna Wills Dowell


Mr. Wills,

It's great to hear so much is going on with Kettlefoot and 50/50. As the season winds down, it good to know things will be bigger and better next year. Can't wait!

Thank you for the update and the hard work you and your crew are doing.

TKH

tim
10-21-2014, 08:38 PM
Great to hear from the management, thanks for the update.

linekin
12-04-2014, 06:33 AM
I would like to thank everyone who attended the Nationals at Kettlefoot this past September and I hope you had a great time. I had hoped to have made more progress with the Change in ownership of IR5050 than I have, but progress is being made.
To date we have a new World Record Committee in place and have reviewed 2 potential World Records.
We have contracted a printer nearby for targets and they are being printed now.
Kay and Anna have been doing well learning the ins and outs of getting your scores posted and shoots scheduled They have worked hard and Rachael has been tutoring them. They should be doing it by themselves very shortly.
We have been in touch with Wilbur Harris and Doug Weeter and they have both been very supportive and helpful and I would like to Thank them for their support.
The new website is very close to being launched and with Wilbur's help it should happen soon.
Wallace Putnam has been helping me with the rulebook and we are hoping to get rid of a grey area or two and fix a few of the typos that are in there.
I am thankful for the emails,phone calls and other messages offering your support for Kay, Anna and I. Please be patient with us as we strive to make IR50/50 better.
An update on the range work going on at Kettlefoot:
The new restrooms are almost complete and as soon as they are finished we will finish the Range extension. Concrete will be poured in the Spring. We hope to get the New parking area filled before hard weather. For those of you who asked: The ramp is going away and we will have nice steps with a handrail. All of this to be finished before the Triple Crown next year. Tom and I worked on the Indoor Range yesterday, I hope to have the upgrades finished before our indoor matches start Nov.6.

Again We Thank You for your patience and support and remember, You can reach us at ewwills@btes.tv and ir5050lady@gmail.com we will respond as quickly as possible.

Wayne and Kay Wills
Anna Wills Dowell

Wayne, I hope all is going well in the transition.
On the IR50 home page you wrote: " I hope that you will join us so I can share my vision personally as well as hear from you."

Many of us have not heard what that vision is. All I've heard is rumors & was hoping you could shed some light on it. Thanks
Keith

ewwills
12-04-2014, 09:35 AM
Keith,
We are still working on the new web site. I hope it will be up and running by New Years. My vision for IR50/50 includes but is not limited to:
Scores to be posted within 48 hours of submission
Everyone to get recognition for their wins, awards etc.
Hats and Jackets to be presented in a timely fashion
Promotion of IR50/50 matches within the shooting community and other areas
Greater Co-operation between the Rimfire Organizations
2 New Rifle classes... Factory and Sporter Un-Limited
Computer Scoring

Many of these changes will not be available until we get the Data Base and web site issues resolved. We have been struggling to get everything in order to make things work in a more timely and efficient manner. Rumors are always out there. If anyone wishes to contact me directly my email is ewwills@btes.tv and my cell# 423-341-1891

I am always open to suggestions and helpful comments. Some changes that have already occurred include an update of the rule book and Kettlefoot now being the Official Homegrounds for IR50/50. The business of IR50/50 is now a Corp. in the state of VA. and fully legal. All results, scheduling and other matters can now be sent to ir5050lady@gmail.com or my email for target and pin orders etc. Mailing address :
IR50/50 inc.
2241 Weaver Pike
Bristol, TN37620

I know some folks think we should be moving faster but I really do not want to do anything to harm our sport. I personally think IR50/50 has the best program out there and our goal will always be to improve.

Thanks for your support,
Wayne

linekin
12-04-2014, 05:51 PM
Thank you Wayne for the response. I am sure all will get sorted out eventually.
My major concerns were the sporter class & any changes there. When you get caught up a bit & things sorted out could you please fill us all in on how the changes will work.
Also as far as the computer scoring goes. I'm not so sure about it. Nothing against it, it just seems like there could be some additional expense for the MD's. Also I like being scored & challenged by my peers. That's just me though. I'm sure it will be fine wherever it goes.
Anyhow thanks for all you are doing.
Keith

ewwills
12-04-2014, 10:41 PM
Computer Scoring will be an option, not a requirement. No power and / or power failures are alwayas present. The light box and plug will always be around.
Wayne

Hillman
12-04-2014, 10:58 PM
Hi Mr. Wills,

I was curious why some of this season's Angle Tree Stone's results are missing from the Result's list. They were up a few months back, but now I see both July's State shoot and the September match is missing..?? Just wanted to get this cleared up so the season's SOTY and match points don't get lost in the mix.
Thanks, Bob Hill

BARTMAN
12-04-2014, 11:20 PM
Sounds like a range I will have to put on my list to go and shoot.

ewwills
12-05-2014, 10:11 AM
Hillman
Please contact me or Kay at the above contact info so we can resolve the result issues.
Wayne

Pete Wass
12-05-2014, 10:57 AM
Keith,
We are still working on the new web site. I hope it will be up and running by New Years. My vision for IR50/50 includes but is not limited to:
Scores to be posted within 48 hours of submission
Everyone to get recognition for their wins, awards etc.
Hats and Jackets to be presented in a timely fashion
Promotion of IR50/50 matches within the shooting community and other areas
Greater Co-operation between the Rimfire Organizations
2 New Rifle classes... Factory and Sporter Un-Limited
Computer Scoring

Many of these changes will not be available until we get the Data Base and web site issues resolved. We have been struggling to get everything in order to make things work in a more timely and efficient manner. Rumors are always out there. If anyone wishes to contact me directly my email is ewwills@btes.tv and my cell# 423-341-1891

I am always open to suggestions and helpful comments. Some changes that have already occurred include an update of the rule book and Kettlefoot now being the Official Homegrounds for IR50/50. The business of IR50/50 is now a Corp. in the state of VA. and fully legal. All results, scheduling and other matters can now be sent to ir5050lady@gmail.com or my email for target and pin orders etc. Mailing address :
IR50/50 inc.
2241 Weaver Pike
Bristol, TN37620

I know some folks think we should be moving faster but I really do not want to do anything to harm our sport. I personally think IR50/50 has the best program out there and our goal will always be to improve.

Thanks for your support,
Wayne



Wayne,

Can you tell us a bit more about the two new classes and how they will be integrated with the current classes please?

Thanks,

Pete

ewwills
12-05-2014, 12:51 PM
Wayne,

Can you tell us a bit more about the two new classes and how they will be integrated with the current classes please?

Thanks,

Pete

I am still working on and seeking advice on the 2 new classes. Basically I would like to have a Factory/Squirrel Gun/Entry level class to attract new shooters. Younger shooters often have families to support and other financial obligations and do not have the disposable income of us older guys. I would like to see them brought in and tutored by those of us who have been here for awhile. I am hoping a more relaxed inexpensive class would be welcomed at most clubs. At the same time I hear from a lot of us senior guys that they are no longer able to enjoy their Sporter rifles because of the scope and rest restrictions. This new class will allow them to continue to enjoy and compete with what is probably a significant shooting investment. We also need to allow for points in what several ranges have been doing ... having Sporter State Matches.
If anyone has any suggestions please email them to me as this is a work in progress. Many ranges are having Factory matches already. I would encourage everyone to poll their shooters and see if there is any interest in this type of competition. I know that here at Kettlefoot we have an indoor match every Thursday night that has very good participation and is a lot of fun. WE shoot 7 different classes from open sights to Unlimited.
Wayne

Pete Wass
12-05-2014, 01:21 PM
Do you shoot all those classes together? Other Orgs handle multi-classes that way. That would work ok inside I guess but as someone pointed out recently, the early matches seem to yield the best scores, most of the time. Thinking about the 6.5X Sporter class in particular here.

Having thought about this briefly, if the UL Sporter could be agged with the UL rifles, that might be the place to add that class.


Pete

ewwills
12-06-2014, 09:03 AM
Do you shoot all those classes together? Other Orgs handle multi-classes that way. That would work ok inside I guess but as someone pointed out recently, the early matches seem to yield the best scores, most of the time. Thinking about the 6.5X Sporter class in particular here.

Having thought about this briefly, if the UL Sporter could be agged with the UL rifles, that might be the place to add that class.


Pete

We shoot all the classes at the same match in different relays. UL Sporter and Rifle together..That's my thought too. A good discussion can create excitement or maybe an argument. I hope we can create some excitement out there for IR50/50.

Wayne

Bob P
12-06-2014, 10:14 AM
Wayne, I shoot IR50/50 at Fred's Rimfire Ridge in Ar. I am like a lot of people that can no longer make out the rings on the Target with a 6.5 power scope. Maybe a change in the Power and Restrict the tube diameter to 1" and increase weight to 8.0# for the increase in scope weight might help create one class of sporter instead of two. It take so much time to add another class to a days shoot. Just for thought. I like others was thinking about giving up on sporter class because I cant see the target any more for it hurts my overall Ag.
I hope you the best with the new IR50/50.
Bob

Hillman
12-06-2014, 10:39 AM
Hillman
Please contact me or Kay at the above contact info so we can resolve the result issues.
Wayne

Thank you Mr. Wills,

I will resend the match results to your email. :)

Bob Hill

Bill B
12-06-2014, 11:09 AM
Wayne, as with most things, the devil is in the details. These new classes seem like a good idea but the success of these new classes will be determined by the details. Problems can/will pop up in the definition of the factory class. Will it be restricted by weight and/ or cost of the factory rifles? You know some will show up with their Annies, Coopers, Kimbers, 40Xs, 52s etc. while others will show up with their Marlins, Savages, Rugers, etc. Some will want to shoot modified Ruger 10/22s which aren't competitive with custom rifles but aren't exactly factory either. Will the factory class have a magnification restriction or will the beginner with a Marlin with a 4X scope be expected to compete against a Cooper with a 24 or 36X scope? You know people will push the limits of the class. It's what we do. Also, if you place a 7.5 lb limit on the factory guns, a lot will not make that weight with a scope. And when you do make the rules, no matter what they are, you know 1/2 of us won't like them and will start to complain. Besides shooting, it's what we do best!!

The unlimited sporter seems straight forward enough but will an unlimited sporter have the same weight limit of 7.5 lbs or will it be increased to 8 lbs as many of our current sporters won't make weight with a bigger/heavier scope? If the unlimited sporter class catches on, it will dilute and split the sporter shooters. This will reduce the points for the winners as some will shoot one class or the other. This will de-emphasize the importance of the sporter in The List. It will need to be decided which class will be included in the points for The List, or, will both be used? Same goes for the sporter nationals, will there be one for both the 6.5X and unlimited or just one and, if so, which one? Which sporter class will be used to determine the 3 gun agg? Damn these pesky details.

In order to keep the sporter class valid in determining The List winner, I think it best to have just one sporter class. If the majority of the shooters want to go to an unlimited scope, just archive the old sporter and agg records and do it. If not, just keep it the way it is. I don't see how anyone wins by splitting the sporter shooters into 2 sub-classes. If you can figure out a way to split the sporter into 2 classes without de-emphasizing the importance of the sporter in The List, come up with a successful and fair factory class, and keep most of the shooters happy, I will personally nominate you for a Nobel Peace prize. Good luck.

Doug
12-06-2014, 12:45 PM
Adding more Classes just undermines the current IR50/50.

Unlimited Sporter:
Not sure what the point is in having an Unlimited Sporter Class?? (ARA Motivated?)
If it is because the Majority want a more powerful scope than just change the current Sporter Class to allow any power scope!

Factory Class:
If there is enough interest then go for it but my guess is that there will not be a way to regulate what is "Factory" and what isn't!
If a Club wants to hold & regulate a factory class then by all means they should but in my mind it should not be part of IR50/50.

Just My Two Cents
Doug

glynn angle
12-06-2014, 01:55 PM
Bill & Doug, very well thought out replies! IR50-50 doesn't need to try to blend ARA into the rules. look what happened to RBA. Part of their downfall was the diluted rules. The current rules hasn't hampered IR50-50. What started the problems was when the NATIONALS sold out with 160 shooters in Charlotte in 2000 (I may be wrong on the year) & management thought the Org. was so important they could toss out Clubs they didn't like & still grow. That forced the startup of RBA & a death forced new owners of IR50-50. From that point forward poor performance by several owners (slow match posting, slow response to club needs, not posting rumored rule clarifications on the Org. Website) have hurt growth. I know past owners have had their hand full with other business interests, but that's a poor excuse. No owner is going to make much money running IR50-50 (surely no owner has paid much for the Org.) so it has to be a labor of love! Good solid service will build up the number of shooters. It a hell of a thing when the Org. changes owners & rumors of the change arrive months before any announcement. Looks like things have a good chance to be much better this time. I surely hope so! :)

Ted Derivan
12-06-2014, 03:41 PM
I agree that we do not want to dilute the sporter class and the whole point of the new classes are to encourage new shooters (factory class) to shoot before making a large investment and to keep older shooters that have. Either way it gets more interest in IR 50/50.

Golf clubs have figured this issue out for decades. At any given course, each hole has at least 3 tee boxes to hit from. The better players hit from the back, the less experienced the front. We can look at the three classes of Sporter the same way. Lets assume 9 shooters show up for a match. 3 with traditional Sporter, 3 factory, 3 ul Sporter whatever that may be defined as. Each shooter shoots the 30min match. The 3 that shoot traditional sporter (back tees) are scored as 1,2,3; then the factory sporter is 4,5,6; and the UL Sporter 7,8,9. Regardless of the overall scores the UL sporter gets handicapped and the traditional Sporter benefits from the more challenging match.

This way all 9 shooters are credited for list points, but the 6.5 scoped shooter is the only one that can win a sporter match or the 3 gun agg. The others are still part of the match, and may shoot very well but are not overly rewarded for the different equipment used.

If clubs want to hold UL Sporter matches that could be an option, also we could make a Factory and UL Sporter Scoreline. All of this would hopefully encourage newer shooters to get better and possibly make the investment in a custom sporter, while keeping as many existing shooters still actively shooting a 6.5 power Sporter without being penalized by shooting against higher power UL scoped Sporter.

The class requirements still need to be created but this is one scoring option that could help level the playing field for all Sporter shooters.

Thanks,

Ted Derivan

tim
12-06-2014, 06:36 PM
Adding more Classes just undermines the current IR50/50.

Unlimited Sporter:
Not sure what the point is in having an Unlimited Sporter Class?? (ARA Motivated?)
If it is because the Majority want a more powerful scope than just change the current Sporter Class to allow any power scope!

Factory Class:
If there is enough interest then go for it but my guess is that there will not be a way to regulate what is "Factory" and what isn't!
If a Club wants to hold & regulate a factory class then by all means they should but in my mind it should not be part of IR50/50.

Just My Two Cents
Doug


Unfortunately, what that seems to happening Doug, is that the guys that bitch about not being able to shoot 250's at random with the Sporter class, now get their way. The guys that forgot the class is supposed to hard.
Probably the same guys that don't go anywhere where there is actual wind.
Did we also not have a factory class that had about zero interest.
Lots of changes right out of the box.
Apparently tradition is officially on the back burner.
Wilbur, had a true appreciation for what came before him and made a genuine effort to gain information from many areas of the organization.

Bill B
12-06-2014, 09:32 PM
When I hear guys complain about not being able to see well enough to shoot the sporter well, I want to ask, "Can you see your crosshairs? Can you see the heavy black ring? Cause that's all any of us can see at 6 or 6.5X. Do they think anyone else can see the X or the ten ring? No!!!! We can't. All we do is see the heavy black rings and try to center the crosshairs on it and if a hold-off is needed we all just sorta guess. That's the challenge, that's the fun of sporter! Oh well, I guess some folks just like things nice and easy. What was it Tina Turner said - - - .

linekin
12-07-2014, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE=Ted Derivan;747213] The 3 that shoot traditional sporter (back tees) are scored as 1,2,3; then the factory sporter is 4,5,6; and the UL Sporter 7,8,9. Regardless of the overall scores the UL sporter gets handicapped and the traditional Sporter benefits from the more challenging match.

This way all 9 shooters are credited for list points, but the 6.5 scoped shooter is the only one that can win a sporter match or the 3 gun agg. The others are still part of the match, and may shoot very well but are not overly rewarded for the different equipment used.

If clubs want to hold UL Sporter matches that could be an option, also we could make a Factory and UL Sporter Scoreline. All of this would hopefully encourage newer shooters to get better and possibly make the investment in a custom sporter, while keeping as many existing shooters still actively shooting a 6.5 power Sporter without being penalized by shooting against higher power UL scoped Sporter.

The class requirements still need to be created but this is one scoring option that could help level the playing field for all Sporter shooters.

Ted,
I don't think that would be fair to the occasional factory sporter that does better than the custom. I wouldn't like taking 4th place points because someone shot poorer but has spent more money? That wouldn't seem right.

A separate factory class scoreline seems like a good idea however what if a new shooter has a factory sporter & a heavy custom? How would the list points work there? I suppose they could have their own Factory sporter scoreline but it would likely kill their 3-gun agg. But they should realize that going into it.

I wonder how many the IR50 would gain by increasing scope power on the sporters? I fear that it may lose more by doing so as most are pretty passionate about how it is now. Its what I like. But its all I have competed in too.

Wayne, this sporter thing might be your toughest task of all!
Keith

William Colbert
12-07-2014, 09:08 AM
I feel the 250 has become too attainable. Shooters feel that since they can shoot 250's in thier 10.5 and 13.5 that they should able to shoot a 250 as frequently in their sporter shooting. I hope this isn't becoming a situation where a few whiners feel they are "ENTITLED" to a 250 in sporter because other shooters can do it and they are going to carry on until they get their way. After all every dog has or had their day. As a freind of mine says, "if you want a 250 just shoot better".

The problem may not be in the sporter class at all, maybe it is in the 10.5 and 13.5 pound class, too much scopage. Let's have a 250 in any class be something that is truely awesome no matter who shoots it. When I used to hunt I would always say to myself, "I would much rather shoot one wild bird all season than 50 stocked birds". The 250 is something that should be a great accomplishmnet, just like harvesting that one wild bird. Isn't it fun to shoot a match where no 250's were shot? It makes everyone feel that they may have a chance of winning. I THINK THE AGG'S ARE TOO HIGH! With the great smithing and ammo of today we should step up and handycap ourselves. 36 power in unlimited only or maybe fewer wind flags allowed down range (Sorry Ray!). Let's just make it more interesting! These would be simple changes that I believe would make our wonderful sport more challanging and competative for the average Joe.

This was my first year shooting 50/50 so please take it easy on me in your responses. I LIKE THE SPORTER THE WAY IT IS. I thought that some insight from a new shooter could be helpful. Thank you for your time.

Best to all,
William Colbert
The newest 50/50 Match Director, Country Pond Fish and Game, Newton NH

Jim Jones
12-07-2014, 09:32 AM
The 3-gun sporter class isn't going to change. The only change to the sporter class (if I understand my conversation with Wayne correct) is to go on the Unlimited side and add a Unlimited sporter match. This would not change anything other than adding a new class on the Unlimited side. There would be some changes made to the weight (allow more weight) so you could use a higher power scope. Stock configuration would stay the same. This is still in the thinking stages but the 3-gun sporter will stand as is. Wayne has listed his e-mail address and phone number for anyone who would like to discuss anything and everything pertaining to IR-50/50 advancement. Give him a call, give him a chance.

Jim

DonMatzeder
12-07-2014, 09:52 AM
Just shoot an ARA sporter match and an ARA unlimited match in conjunction with your traditional 3 gun matches and then everyone will have a class to shoot and you wont mess with your list points? The only thing this does not cover is the factory match and that will always be the hard one, as in racing or any other sport. Claiming races were the simplest answer there but no one wants to sell his classic gun for a claiming price. I'll let you all figure that one out.....

Bill B
12-07-2014, 11:12 AM
Hi William, thanks for your thoughts, but getting us to accept new rules to basically put a restrictor on accuracy is a tough sell. The goal of benchrest is to reach the pinnacle of accuracy possible. This means that as we progress in our equipment, ammo and skills that the scores will get better and more people will shoot 250s. At this point, it's all about the X count to determine the winner in most matches. I see that as a good thing. If the 250 is becoming easier to shoot, its because we've been successful in advancing rimfire accuracy with our BR shooting organizations. The only way to shoot fewer 250s that wouldn't result in taking a step backward in accuracy would be to change the target and to make the 10 ring smaller. This would require the archiving of all current IR50/50 records and would essentially be creating another BR game. It could be done, but wouldn't be IR50/50 as we know it.

I think there could be a way to integrate the factory rifles into the existing classes by making certain exceptions for factory rifles. Offered for discussion purposes: Let's say we allow factory sporter rifles to compete in the existing sporter class by relaxing the weight restriction on factory rifles because so many factory rifles won't make the 7.5 lb limit with a regularly encountered scope. We could also relax the 6.5X scope restriction for factory rifles, thereby giving those who want to shoot a higher magnification in sporter an option. They could just shoot a factory rifle. The factory shooters would then shoot for the sporter class win and we could have a separate acknowledgement for the highest score by a factory shooter. Have the match director note on their reports the rifles that are factory and note the mfg and model #. IR50/50 can then set up and establish records for factory rifles. I doubt most custom sporter shooters would change to a factory rifle to attain the "advantages" of shooting a heavier rifle or higher magnification. And if a certain factory rifle is produced that can compete, why everyone would just gravitate to it and shoot it. It could work like this: A sporter is a custom rifle, with a magazine capable of holding at least 2 rounds, weighing less than 7.5 lbs with a scope of 6.5X or less, or, a stock factory produced rifle, having a magazine capable of holding at least 2 rounds, weighing less than 8.5 lbs with a scope set at 16X or less. Factory rifles would be rifles allowed to have their factory triggers adjusted and be bedded by a gunsmith.

By integrating factory rifles into our regular classes, we could increase participation, give the factory rifle shooters certain relaxed "advantages" and allow them to increase the points available in the sporter class (I would expect most factory rifles will be of the sporter configuration). No one shooting a custom sporter with a 6.5X should feel threatened because of the level of accuracy these rifles are able to achieve and the factory shooting beginner will have advantage of having a heavier rifle and more magnification. While these factory rifles may still not be competitive with the custom sporters, they will have the challenge of competing with other factory rifle shooters across the country for recognition and the new factory records. You might even have shooters who have abandoned their custom sporters for being either non-competitive or for the magnification restriction, take up the factory sporter with the higher scope magnification limit for the chance of establishing a factory world record. This would mean that a club wouldn't have to have separate relays or matches specifically for factory rifle matches.

Regarding changing the sporter class to allow unlimited scope because certain shooters can no longer see well enough to use a 6.5X scope. If we want to be taken seriously as a sport, we can't be relaxing or changing the rules to accommodate those whose physical abilities are waning. This would be akin to an aging marathoner asking the Olympic Committee to shorten the race because he couldn't run 26.2 miles anymore. Anyone in every sport knows that over time skills and ability may/will diminish. C'est la vie.

linekin
12-07-2014, 11:38 AM
Geez Bill, that all sounds pretty good.
Jim, I have the utmost confidence in Wayne & all he's doing. What I like best is an open line of communication & wanting to hear from others.That's nice!
I wonder if there could be a poll or something of the like that could be set up so we could see how the majority feels. Not a lot of people post but might be willing to share an opinion in a poll??
Bare with us Wayne. Its winter & there isn't much else going on. At least not up north!
Keith

DonMatzeder
12-07-2014, 11:54 AM
just that pesky little ARA Nationals indoor. Probably not more than one or two of the IR Unlimited guys at that.......

Bill B
12-07-2014, 12:55 PM
Geez Bill, that all sounds pretty good.
Jim, I have the utmost confidence in Wayne & all he's doing. What I like best is an open line of communication & wanting to hear from others.That's nice!
I wonder if there could be a poll or something of the like that could be set up so we could see how the majority feels. Not a lot of people post but might be willing to share an opinion in a poll??
Bare with us Wayne. Its winter & there isn't much else going on. At least not up north!
Keith

Keith, the factory rifle could even be integrated into the 10.5 and 13.5 classes, not by making any weight or obviously scope magnification adjustments, but by simply establishing and noting a factory winner and by keeping additional records for those shooting stock factory rifles that won't otherwise meet the factory sporter requirements. I'm thinking specifically folks shooting stock Cooper TRPs, Annies, 52s 40Xs etc. Factory equipment requirements would have to meet conditions like having the original barrel, stock and trigger. It might be fun and interesting to see what the top factory rifles would be and it just might be incentive for some mfg's to either get in the game or improve on their products to get the bragging rights of being the world record holder for a factory rimfire rifle.

ewwills
12-07-2014, 01:59 PM
OK Guys,
I made the statement that a good discussion will either create excitement or an argument. I will not be making any changes in the next year as far as new classes or any other fundamental of IR50/50. What I have done already is clear up some gray areas in the rules that concern sportsmanship , Indoor and Outdoor range reguirements and a few typos etc.
Everything else is simply out there to see if it will help or harm our sport. IR50/50 is unique, I believe it to be the most challenging rimfire competition out there. I do not intend to make it easier.
My goals for next year are simply to get the new WebSite up and going, fix the problems we have had with score postings, insure that everyone recieves recognition to include hats, jackets etc., do whatever I can to increase the number of shooters, ranges and states participating in IR50/50 and make IR50/50 matches more efficient and enjoyable.
I will be the first to say that this will not be easy. Kay and Anna (with help from Doug and Rachel) deal with the current WebSite issues every day. We did not invest our time and money to sit by and watch IR50/50 die. All we ask is that you "the shooters and rangemasters" keep an open mind about what each of us can do to support and encourage each other. I can do my best to steer the ship, but I will need everyone's help to make this work.
As soon as possible I want to have these type of discussions on the New WebSite where the IR50/50 "family" can advise, suggest and comment on IR50/50, however; as the saying goes the buck stops here and final decisions must be made by me.
Remember, a personal email or conversation with me is always possible. I have not hidden my contact info. I will be more than happy to discuss any issue(s) you may have and promise to listen with an open mind. I do not plan on dealing with problems or individuals on a public forum. Most of the time, it will only create controversy.
Kay, Anna and I would like to wish all the Rimfire Community a Merry Chrismas and a Happy New Year,
Wayne Wills

Wilbur
12-07-2014, 03:31 PM
Factory class! What exactly is a factory class rifle?

Doug
12-07-2014, 05:19 PM
Factory class! What exactly is a factory class rifle?

Wilbur Scary - as far as I know there will not such a class in IR50/50 in the near future!

Thanks Wayne for your post that there will no be any changes in IR50/50 for the Coming Year !! :D

George Atkins
12-07-2014, 05:41 PM
Factory class! What exactly is a factory class rifle?

I shoot with a group of people almost every week. The rules we use are, the action and the barrel must be OEM, Remington, Anschutz, Winchester...... no tuners, no mechanical rest. Bi-pods and sand bags only. Anything else goes, triggers, scopes, ammo, bedded stocks, aftermarket stocks.

We also shoot for a little money to make it interesting. We came up with a way to make the pay outs to attract new shooters. We shoot two targets as the main event. We pay high score per row, best center bull per row, high score per target and most combined Xs in both targets. This way everybody has a chance to win something and usually do. We usually have between 8-15 shooters each week. We shoot a variety of targets IR, ARA,PSL and USBR as long as they have 5 bulls per row and 5 rows. Hardly ever have any complaints, you don't need a top notch rifle or killer ammo to compete.

George

Pete Wass
12-07-2014, 09:38 PM
The Factory Class has been tried many times and some orgs still provide for one. Unless it is an event such as the one described above, there is no point in it, from my experience. The shooting sports are not for folks on a budget, from what I have seen since the middle 80's anyway. I began Benchrest back then at a club with "Factory" rifles. We quickly turned into an equipment race. I remember Joe Haller running some Factory class matches in Texas during the winter way back. I think he may have limited the rifles to a dollar amount with a claiming rule and I seem to recall having to use ammo sold at the shoot but could be wrong on that score. At any rate, the fellow with the most money will keep buying rifles until he finds one that will win. Not for lads on a budget. Anyone who just would like to "try It" can always just show up and try it with his ole squirrel gun any time. I have had a few do that over the past three years. They either buy competitive equipment for the discipline or dwindle out after a couple of matches. For me, the only fun rifle is an accurate rifle.

Pete

TangoTwo
12-08-2014, 09:16 AM
Wayne, I shoot IR50/50 at Fred's Rimfire Ridge in Ar. I am like a lot of people that can no longer make out the rings on the Target with a 6.5 power scope. Maybe a change in the Power and Restrict the tube diameter to 1" and increase weight to 8.0# for the increase in scope weight might help create one class of sporter instead of two. It take so much time to add another class to a days shoot. Just for thought. I like others was thinking about giving up on sporter class because I cant see the target any more for it hurts my overall Ag.
I hope you the best with the new IR50/50.
Bob


Bob,

I don't know anybody that can see the rings thru a sporter scope. You are not alone. Ray Price always used to say he couldn't see good enough to shoot a sporter. Usually when he complained, he won the match. Guess you don't really have to see much to win. Besides, how well are those zeros going to average into your agg when you don't shoot?

Ken Henderson

tim
12-08-2014, 11:59 AM
Ken, what have i been missing? I have'nt seen those rings in 20 years. For what its worth, you dont actually need the rings, you bisect the big black outer rings.
Bob, may i ask what kind of scope is on your sporter?

Bob P
12-08-2014, 01:02 PM
Ken, what have i been missing? I have'nt seen those rings in 20 years. For what its worth, you dont actually need the rings, you bisect the big black outer rings.
Bob, may i ask what kind of scope is on your sporter?

Leupold Target VX-2 6-18 with target dot Tape down at 6.5 power. I try to do the same with the black ring.

tim
12-08-2014, 01:57 PM
While thats a fine scope, i would tell you to look through any of the latest generation optics using 30 MM tubes and side focus. They offer big improvements in clarity for older eyes and a lot less eye fatigue.

tommyt654
12-11-2014, 01:52 PM
"Unless it is an event such as the one described above, there is no point in it, from my experience. The shooting sports are not for folks on a budget"

I take offense to anyone with that way of thinking. Since when does/has the shooting sport become limited to only those whose pocket can afford it. I truly hope that comment was in jest. I for one while relatively new to the sport (tho I did compete many yrs ago) have to wonder why it has gotten so overly expensive to compete. You have pretty much taken any real shooting skill's out of the game and mechanized it to the point that one has to have the funds to compete more so that actual shooting skills. Really,just how hard is it to squeeze off a round when all you have is the ability to mechanically do everything else to direct your rifle to a POI ,other than judge the wind. If you really want to get back to skillful shooting then perhaps remove all mechanical aspects of the game other than the wind flags and scope and see how well you fare against others.(perhaps the reason it got that expensive in the 1st place was to dissuade better shooters anyways) That exact above statement and mindset is exactly why the sport will not continue to draw in new shooters as the older fade out. A factory class is a perfect example of how to introduce and keep shooters of all skill sets and incomes in the game. It's not like yachting or polo for gods sake it's the sport not of "kings and queens" but of the common man with adequate skills acquired thru yrs of experience,or at least it was!!!!

Just my 2 cents on that subject

DonMatzeder
12-11-2014, 03:03 PM
have you priced good ammo yet????

tim
12-11-2014, 04:18 PM
"Unless it is an event such as the one described above, there is no point in it, from my experience. The shooting sports are not for folks on a budget"

I take offense to anyone with that way of thinking. Since when does/has the shooting sport become limited to only those whose pocket can afford it. I truly hope that comment was in jest. I for one while relatively new to the sport (tho I did compete many yrs ago) have to wonder why it has gotten so overly expensive to compete. You have pretty much taken any real shooting skill's out of the game and mechanized it to the point that one has to have the funds to compete more so that actual shooting skills. Really,just how hard is it to squeeze off a round when all you have is the ability to mechanically do everything else to direct your rifle to a POI ,other than judge the wind. If you really want to get back to skillful shooting then perhaps remove all mechanical aspects of the game other than the wind flags and scope and see how well you fare against others.(perhaps the reason it got that expensive in the 1st place was to dissuade better shooters anyways) That exact above statement and mindset is exactly why the sport will not continue to draw in new shooters as the older fade out. A factory class is a perfect example of how to introduce and keep shooters of all skill sets and incomes in the game. It's not like yachting or polo for gods sake it's the sport not of "kings and queens" but of the common man with adequate skills acquired thru yrs of experience,or at least it was!!!!

Just my 2 cents on that subject

This post is incorrect in its assumptions on virtually every level. First, your opinion of what it takes,with even the best equipment, is baseless. If you think its that easy, come on out. How can you render any statement on results and or equment with no experience? Based on what?
Second, any top level results, whether it be shooting, racing, golf, hell, I don't care what it is, will be dependent on not only somebody's level of talent and commitment, but top flight equipment. Like it or not, that equipment requires both investment and top flight ammunition and unfortunately, that requires expenditure. Dumbing down the whole thing does not do much. Lots of people forget we had factory class availability and they didn't come, they didn't shoot, and the few that did, didn't really enjoy shooting mediocre scores compared to what purpose built guns do. All of this stuff, over time, has gotten spendy and that is simply the plain, unfortunate truth, and there is no getting around it. Can't accept that.....that's why they sell fish poles at Wally World, I guess.

glynn angle
12-11-2014, 05:08 PM
A guy in our gun club made a remark a few years ago about rimfire benchrest rifles being so expensive. He said a fellow should be able to show up & compete with a average squirrel rifle. I knew he traveled some shooting trap but didn't give it much thought. Hell the guy I speak of is always complaining about something. Well our club built a trap house. Of course this same fellow complained that the club should have listened to him on construction details. I went to our first monthly trap shoot, he wasn't there. (off competing, I'm guessing now). Anyway the next time I went he was there & had 4 trap guns in a rack & each of them cost more than a first class rimfire benchrest rifle !!! :)

BARTMAN
12-11-2014, 05:11 PM
I have a question aboout IR-50 , It is three classes right.. Do most people shoot the 10 1/2 lb. rifle in the unlimited class also? Or do you actually have to have 3 guns.

tim
12-11-2014, 06:44 PM
I have a question aboout IR-50 , It is three classes right.. Do most people shoot the 10 1/2 lb. rifle in the unlimited class also? Or do you actually have to have 3 guns.

Most folks shoot a Sporter and one 10 1/2lb. gun for the 3-gun. Many, if not most, shoot the same 10 1/2lb gun in the unlimited matches as well often still using 2 piece rests although 1 piece rests are used. Down South or other areas where ARA is well represented, guys use heavier guns in unlimited since they have no weight restrictions.

tim
12-11-2014, 06:47 PM
A guy in our gun club made a remark a few years ago about rimfire benchrest rifles being so expensive. He said a fellow should be able to show up & compete with a average squirrel rifle. I knew he traveled some shooting trap but didn't give it much thought. Hell the guy I speak of is always complaining about something. Well our club built a trap house. Of course this same fellow complained that the club should have listened to him on construction details. I went to our first monthly trap shoot, he wasn't there. (off competing, I'm guessing now). Anyway the next time I went he was there & had 4 trap guns in a rack & each of them cost more than a first class rimfire benchrest rifle !!! :)

You know, I think, guys that want to do this just find a way and guys that do not seem to have 12 reasons or excuses why they don't. It seems it's always been this way, just the nature of the game.
Also, back when this started, a decent gun on a given day would get you some wins. It really takes top flight hardware to do well in any kind of decent match and it's just not easy chasing those last points or X's here or there.

tommyt654
12-11-2014, 08:07 PM
Tim, I am shooting against new found friends in the unlimited class because that's really all thats available close by for the moment. Even when they hold a Factory class they are still using 1 piece rest,tuners etc against true factory rifles as stated. No tuners, bedding,etc. I can hold my own with my M12 and a 2 piece rest shot a 3 card 749/27x 1st time out in that class and probably could win with a sandbag and no rear rest if other's were forced to shoot that way as well as that's how I learned to shoot off a bench,none of this fancy equipment you have nowadays,But as I stated I have been away from the sport since H.S,Shot well enough then and can still shoot well. If you really need a 1 piece mount,custom this and that to compete it lessens the skill levels necessary to show your true shooting skills as well. Can you shoot well enough without what basically amount's to rail gun accuracy without all your special needs and frills. I'm not knocking the unlimited class as that's the reasoning behind it. What bother's me is the assumption apparently of a few here that money equates a skill level. Guess what bud,It don't. Making false assumption's about ones skill's usually will get you in a losing position regardless of the sport, if you know little about racing,golf,any true skill based sports I'm quite sure a skilled player in golf like McElroy/Woods/Mickelson,etc or others could beat you or I with a 7 iron and a putter most any day of the week on 18 holes,that's skill,not letting machines basically take the sporting skill required to compete out of your hand/trigger finger to compete. I won many championship billiard games in my life at a later age based on having a time tested good eye and have shot against the very best in that field with house stick and sandpaper and won.Worked with Don Garlits in drag racing way back when and won many races with mediocre equipment but used my mechanical skills to get the best performance with what I had at the time.It's about what you do with the skills you have 1st and foremost. Sadly you are mistaken regarding the monetary issues. Again it's just my humble opinion on the matter of having a factory class and the baseless admonishment of those with lesser funds. A member here told me it's more about the barrel and ammo than anything else,very sage advice taken wholeheartedly. Yes ammo's expensive and have graduated to the more expensive,yet find it provides at my level modest increase's in accuracy as I'm still testing to see what she likes,kinda like dating women to find the right one with class,character and good looks. But theres no reason to be snobbish about the sport now is there?

tim
12-11-2014, 08:53 PM
So long story short....you have strong opinions, don't presently shoot, play pool. Thanks . Also don't confuse snobbery with facts, your post didn't contain many, if any.

BARTMAN
12-11-2014, 10:08 PM
Tommy, IR 50/50 or usbr would suit your preference a liitle better than others , because of the front rest and rear sandbag. I have started to buy a one piece rest several times, but always back out. Just seems to boring. But would like to shoot with one to be on the same playing field. May end up with one before it's over though

Longer Range
12-11-2014, 11:46 PM
You are building new I.R50/50.Few fresh ideas:

*What if take new category 100 yd/100 m and shoot same target 50/50.Shooters skills and wind reading goes up and 250s are not very common anymore-:).

*Factory class.If you like that money NOT talks so much why not take rule copy from "every mans car competition"--> You must sell your equipment after competition with XXX USD if somebody likes to buy it.

My 2cents from dark Northern Europe.

BR, Timo

tommyt654
12-12-2014, 09:02 AM
"So long story short....you have strong opinions, don't presently shoot, play pool. Thanks . Also don't confuse snobbery with facts, your post didn't contain many, if any."

Thanks for making my point,LOL ^^^^^^^^^^

Bartman, thanks maybe I'll try a match or 2 to see what it's about. I do practice with the IR 50/50 targets at 50 yards as well as others that are available to me and have no problems hitting the mark. Largest problem's I'm having so far are reading the mirage and wind effects,but look forward to the new season.As stated I'm shooting a factory stock rifle against others in mostly unlimited class as that's all available at the moment here and it is enjoyable thanks to the class of the folks shooting with. I have no fantasy's about being able to compete with them at that level with my current equipment.

They welcomed me with open arms and explained that it has become a game of money to compete with them,but I enjoy a challenge far more than anything else and will continue to shoot against from what I have seen of their current shooting records some of the finest,classiest individuals in the game.

Tommy

BARTMAN
12-12-2014, 10:00 AM
Tommyt654. Most of us start with factory guns. All my guns still have factory actions. The problem for most of us , we don't have many shooters at our local match's . after we upgrade and the rest of the local shooters don't we are out by ourselves and have to travel to shoot with others that have the same equipment. I plan to go to the Louisiana shoot next month and maybe February. Also plan on going to slick willy range next year also. Just go with it and have fun.

Wilbur
12-13-2014, 03:45 PM
The rules, as they are, are simple when you think about it for a moment - any rules. The rules simply limit the ability to go beyond. There will always be folks that are smart enough or have some ability to push any rule to its limit. If you think for a moment, you'll see what I'm saying here. I don't see any way to change anything that wouldn't cause severe problems - within any organization.

Alternatively, if you believe something will work on a national basis rather than just your club, then please do it. If you can convince me it will work...I'll do it.

But, to ask any "organization" to change the rules to suit you or your rifle will likely end as small talk. Changing equipment rules is a great big deal !! Setting up a new organization with new rules is not such a big deal but once set, a change is likely to be the end....and so it goes.....

I believe that anybody that has any rifle can compete within the rules of the ARA. So, why would you need anything else? Sure, I know why, but you can't win there with my rifle so why attend?

Here's the deal...folks that will not spend the money to have a winning rifle will likely not attend a match if there's anything else on their mind. They don't have to, there's something else they have to do, they don't like somebody that will be there...etc... Why would you believe that anybody would schedule a match given the commitment of these folks, which is none - much less several matches at the beginning of the year. What you're asking for will simply not happen in the long run and nobody can make it happen - it seems...or somebody would have done it already.

And finally, I'm old and set in my ways but know some stuff. I'm pretty sure about what I've written here but I could always be wrong. Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong about this NOT SO LITTLE deal.

tim
12-13-2014, 04:10 PM
You're not wrong Wilbur, as usual, using a little good old fashioned horse selse, you are right.

tommyt654
12-13-2014, 04:12 PM
Sage advice Bartman,look forward to meeting you a Chickenfoot. Don't understand all the hoopla over starting a factory class for folks like myself,but there's always the CMP and NRA competitions to shoot in. Just thought since they seem father away and fewer, some might like to try it in these leagues as well. Maybe too much competition scares away folks from the game. Frankly I'd much rather see the leagues expand than decline in popularity.Too run folks away from it due to higher cost to compete seems unproductive to these organizations opportunity to expand and grow by disallowing another class. After all everyone I have spoken with says they started with a factory rifle and most still have one,why not try it again as popularity of shooting competitions grow:)

Tommy

mistermike
12-13-2014, 04:43 PM
Again We Thank You for your patience and support and remember, You can reach us at ewwills@btes.tv and ir5050lady@gmail.com we will respond as quickly as possible.

Wayne and Kay Wills
Anna Wills Dowell

Wayne and Kay,
Thanks for the update and for your commitment to keep IR 50/50 vital.

Best,
Michael Gallant
Easthampton Fish & Game