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linekin
06-10-2014, 04:53 AM
In another thread Coopers took a bit of a bashing & maybe rightfully so. I witnessed a few of the shine again this weekend & still believe they're as competitive as anything. Not many of us shoot 250's every time custom or not. I see Coopers shoot a 250 w a high X count at our local matches pretty frequently & don't see why that wouldn't be competitive at larger matches.
So I started this thread not to start an argument or stir the pot but to tell it the way I see it. And that is Coopers can compete in RFBR. Are they the best platform out there? No. But with some help they are as good as anything I've seen in my brief time in the sport.
In the aforementioned thread tim brought up a few points
tim quote
When you get to the point where that becomes public prognostications that the Coopers now become platforms for serious benchrest work..........well that is simply factually incorrect and misleading to shooters that truly believe forums provide the majority of quality information
tim quote
This thread is like so many others that start with something observed at a local level with a limited number of examples to assume too much. As is often the case ......get out, shoot a few places......shoot against a few other shooters, and your knowledge base changes.
tim isn't a 250 with a high X count good anywhere in the country? I'm just asking. Isn't that serious bench work?

And Bill said quote As an action, it has some flaws. The biggest being that it has no closing cam. The two little ones opposite the bolt lug have very little surface area and are prone to wear
Bill, after you had mentioned this I went & really looked one over. I do see your point. However, the one I looked at had over 20,000 rds through it & as near as I could see looked fine/felt fine.
And back to tim
tim quote Given the choices what would you prefer, equipment above you're current talent level that allows you to progress or something that may very well shackle you for unexplained reasons. The former go on to win matches, the latter get passed by fairly quick.
tim that makes perfect sense to me. No argument except as I asked above. Isn't a 250 w/ high X count goo anywhere in the country, against anything else that shoots a 250 custom or not?

I am somewhat sheltered as to where I shoot mostly local matches but do stray a little. I see the Coopers do well. Every card? Maybe not. But a lot of times neither do the customs. We're human!
And Bill, I do like to swim against the tide a bit. I think the Coopers are popular up here though for 2 reasons. !st & foremost is they're cost. And 2nd Gary shoots one pretty well & monkey see/ monkey do. That goes on everywhere in the country. Win a big match with a particular item & everyone has to have one.
Again guys I'm not here to argue or stir the pot. But you'll have a hard time convincing me of what this monkey actually sees. And that is Coopers are competitive.
Oh, by the way. I don't own one! :D But am considering it & do respect your opinions.
Keith

Pete Roberson
06-10-2014, 07:52 AM
Great Post Keith very well said!
Thanks!
Pete

Bill B
06-10-2014, 08:00 AM
Keith,

No one wants to rain on anyone's parade here. No doubt, you guys up in Maine have those Coopers shooting pretty well. If you are happy with them, that's all that matters. I was trying to point out that, for all the beginners, that there are better platforms/actions for shooters to go with. I base this opinion on several factors:

1) As I stated before, the action has some flaws. No closing cam and less surface area in the lugs than the custom actions. (20,000 rounds sounds impressive to a beginner but my Turbo has well over 100,000 rounds thru it and still going strong.)

2) The Cooper 57M action has been out for something like 14 years, the TRP3 has been out for what 8 -10 years. I know some who have bought them and they never did anything with them. Saw a lot go down the road. Never saw one that was a winner on the National level.

3) Because of the action's flaws and the fact that they are not popular, I don't know of any current big time gunsmith who is currently working with/building rifles on the Cooper platform. This is a big disadvantage, tho no fault of Cooper, that needs to be considered.

When we recommend an action to a beginner, we think about these things. Especially when a beginner says they are on a budget, we usually recommend a good used rifle based on an action that is tried and true and that gunsmith's are experienced with and willing to work on when it comes time to upgrade or replace components. I own a good Cooper Classic. I shot it for years in local matches. It shoots well. Would I ever have a custom BR rifle built on a Cooper action? No, for all the reasons enumerated above and I will not recommend them to beginners. You folks up in Maine have found a way to make them shoot well. As you say, a 250 with a high X count is the same anywhere. Unless you can guarantee tho that a fellow in Podunk Iowa can expect that level of performance with a new out of the box TRP, then I would suggest not putting out what may be unrealistic expectations. If you folks want the BR world to sit-up and take notice, you will have to take your Coopers and win or place well against the big boys in a bigger event. That's just how that works. From what I'm seeing Gary and his Larson is the combo that is putting out the big scores up in Capitol City. We can all understand your excitement at seeing your scores improve, we've all been there. Wishing you all continued fun and success in your RFBR journey.

Pete Wass
06-10-2014, 09:08 AM
A friend, who has multiple Coopers, loaned me one to shoot in the up-coming Cooper Shoot in Augusta, Maine. I had never looked the rifle over before but he did say it was a Cooper 36 when he offered it to me. When I got it home I had a few big surprises in store. I took the rifle out of it's case and by the way, it has a lovely Rising Sun custom paint scheme it's owner did to honor his Father's WW II Service.

I then took the bolt out of the cloth it was wrapped in. Gee Willikers! The dern bolt has not one, not two but THREE locking lugs positioned mid point on the bolt. I was also astounded to find that it has the heralded PAS ignition system AND 90* trigger / sear. Oh, and also a loading tray right where it belongs. While the bolt shows a lot of use I wouldn't say it was worn to any significant degree. I would opine that it would last a lifetime and a half.

I don't have any idea on the age but it has some age on it but I ask anyone, did it take a while for evolution to catch up or what? :p

Barrels folks, rifles are all about barrels. Forget the niggling rap about actions, stocks, triggers, scopes, mounts stock polish, exotic cleaning solvents, etc, etc, etc. Instead focus on barrel condition, ammo quality for that barrel and the nut behind the bolt.

Coopers may be inferior but try to find a new BR model to buy. I think it will be difficult and if you were to order one you would wait MONTHS for it. There a lot of custom rifles , regardless of who put them together, that the owner never gets to shoot @ a competitive level. There are still lots of old designed actions winning matches and a few of them BIG matches. The rifles that perform well are owned, mostly, by folks who know how to run them and find good ammo for them, regardless of what they are.

Pete

Bill B
06-10-2014, 03:08 PM
Pete,

You're right. I stand corrected and bow to your superior knowledge and expertise in this matter. What was I thinking. :rolleyes:

tim
06-10-2014, 06:38 PM
Keith,

You asked a very valid question and I was quoted but let me expand. You have a couple good Coopers up there and that's great. You have a guy up there that has massaged a few having success and that's great. The danger is, of course, inferring too much from limited exposure. I think most shooters with more than passing experience would agree that this is the exception not the rule. The barrels, in general, are not match. The actions, in general, are not precise. Now building or buying a capable benchrest rig is, at the end of the day, playing certain odds and there are two things to consider. First do you want the odds so the wind is at your back or in your face? Second, do you want equipment that you can aspire to grow into or may outgrow? Lastly, and not to be overlooked, a decent BR gun, properly looked after, will maintain decent value. Generally a Cooper, especially a tampered one.......you're lucky to avoid taking a beating IMHO.
Here's a free piece of advice. You want something you can invest in that you will enjoy, get a good used gun. They're out there. Solicit help, be patient, do some homework, and check with folks that are familiar with an offered gun( they all shot in matches) and you will get something at reasonable prices. We have all gotten good guns like this.....me included.

Ted Derivan
06-10-2014, 07:16 PM
I have 3 Coopers. My first is a Jackson Squirrel that I shoot offhand, in some club fun shots on the bench, and last year as my sporter. It is a nice gun, I think 245 is the best score with it. The second is a TRP-3 that I ordered in the summer, it came in March. I shot it at a 200yd fun shoot placed 5th. I like both guns but the most reliable, straightest, and enjoyable of the three is here:
14930

The Team Eck Mini Cooper


Ted Derivan

MIKECAMERON
06-10-2014, 07:36 PM
In another thread Coopers took a bit of a bashing & maybe rightfully so. I witnessed a few of the shine again this weekend & still believe they're as competitive as anything. Not many of us shoot 250's every time custom or not. I see Coopers shoot a 250 w a high X count at our local matches pretty frequently & don't see why that wouldn't be competitive at larger matches.
So I started this thread not to start an argument or stir the pot but to tell it the way I see it. And that is Coopers can compete in RFBR. Are they the best platform out there? No. But with some help they are as good as anything I've seen in my brief time in the sport.
In the aforementioned thread tim brought up a few points
tim quote
When you get to the point where that becomes public prognostications that the Coopers now become platforms for serious benchrest work..........well that is simply factually incorrect and misleading to shooters that truly believe forums provide the majority of quality information
tim quote
This thread is like so many others that start with something observed at a local level with a limited number of examples to assume too much. As is often the case ......get out, shoot a few places......shoot against a few other shooters, and your knowledge base changes.
tim isn't a 250 with a high X count good anywhere in the country? I'm just asking. Isn't that serious bench work?

And Bill said quote As an action, it has some flaws. The biggest being that it has no closing cam. The two little ones opposite the bolt lug have very little surface area and are prone to wear
Bill, after you had mentioned this I went & really looked one over. I do see your point. However, the one I looked at had over 20,000 rds through it & as near as I could see looked fine/felt fine.
And back to tim
tim quote Given the choices what would you prefer, equipment above you're current talent level that allows you to progress or something that may very well shackle you for unexplained reasons. The former go on to win matches, the latter get passed by fairly quick.
tim that makes perfect sense to me. No argument except as I asked above. Isn't a 250 w/ high X count goo anywhere in the country, against anything else that shoots a 250 custom or not?

I am somewhat sheltered as to where I shoot mostly local matches but do stray a little. I see the Coopers do well. Every card? Maybe not. But a lot of times neither do the customs. We're human!
And Bill, I do like to swim against the tide a bit. I think the Coopers are popular up here though for 2 reasons. !st & foremost is they're cost. And 2nd Gary shoots one pretty well & monkey see/ monkey do. That goes on everywhere in the country. Win a big match with a particular item & everyone has to have one.
Again guys I'm not here to argue or stir the pot. But you'll have a hard time convincing me of what this monkey actually sees. And that is Coopers are competitive.
Oh, by the way. I don't own one! :D But am considering it & do respect your opinions.
Keith

The only advice Ill offer here is that if you ever plan to compete in national matches either PSL ARA or IR 50/50 then you will want a rifle that you can compete with, go to those disciplines web sites and do some research look at the equipment lists and you will see in pretty short order that a cooper is not what you would want ( Ive never even seen one listed). It could be possible that one has won in the distant past but I have never even seen anyone shoot one(not a single one) and I have been to just about every big match since around 2009, but look it up for yourself. Now this is not a bash of a cooper it is just a fact. I am one to swim against the tide a bit as well I shoot a Suhl and it is competitive. If your friend wants to prove his competitiveness against the state of rimfire bench rest there is going to be a PSL in Bristol Tenn on june the 21st and a IR 50/50 unlimited Nationals the same day in fairchance PA show up and prove all us wrong about what has been said about the coopers, it is that simple.
MC

linekin
06-10-2014, 09:43 PM
Keith,

No one wants to rain on anyone's parade here. No doubt, you guys up in Maine have those Coopers shooting pretty well. If you are happy with them, that's all that matters. I was trying to point out that, for all the beginners, that there are better platforms/actions for shooters to go with. I base this opinion on several factors:

1) As I stated before, the action has some flaws. No closing cam and less surface area in the lugs than the custom actions. (20,000 rounds sounds impressive to a beginner but my Turbo has well over 100,000 rounds thru it and still going strong.)

2) The Cooper 57M action has been out for something like 14 years, the TRP3 has been out for what 8 -10 years. I know some who have bought them and they never did anything with them. Saw a lot go down the road. Never saw one that was a winner on the National level.

3) Because of the action's flaws and the fact that they are not popular, I don't know of any current big time gunsmith who is currently working with/building rifles on the Cooper platform. This is a big disadvantage, tho no fault of Cooper, that needs to be considered.

When we recommend an action to a beginner, we think about these things. Especially when a beginner says they are on a budget, we usually recommend a good used rifle based on an action that is tried and true and that gunsmith's are experienced with and willing to work on when it comes time to upgrade or replace components. I own a good Cooper Classic. I shot it for years in local matches. It shoots well. Would I ever have a custom BR rifle built on a Cooper action? No, for all the reasons enumerated above and I will not recommend them to beginners. You folks up in Maine have found a way to make them shoot well. As you say, a 250 with a high X count is the same anywhere. Unless you can guarantee tho that a fellow in Podunk Iowa can expect that level of performance with a new out of the box TRP, then I would suggest not putting out what may be unrealistic expectations. If you folks want the BR world to sit-up and take notice, you will have to take your Coopers and win or place well against the big boys in a bigger event. That's just how that works. From what I'm seeing Gary and his Larson is the combo that is putting out the big scores up in Capitol City. We can all understand your excitement at seeing your scores improve, we've all been there. Wishing you all continued fun and success in your RFBR journey.

Bill, the thread wasn't to boost anyones ego or start a parade for Coopers. I just can't for some reason figure out why 250's with high X counts are different here than anywhere else.
I also get your point about the bolt deficiencies. I don't see it affecting accuracy though.
I'm sure its easier for a gunsmith to build off custom parts. It does make the most sense.
I can't guarantee anything to anyone Bill. Who am I really? But I can share what I've seen.
Thanks for your opinion. I respect it.
Keith

linekin
06-10-2014, 09:56 PM
Keith,

You asked a very valid question and I was quoted but let me expand. You have a couple good Coopers up there and that's great. You have a guy up there that has massaged a few having success and that's great. The danger is, of course, inferring too much from limited exposure. I think most shooters with more than passing experience would agree that this is the exception not the rule. The barrels, in general, are not match. The actions, in general, are not precise. Now building or buying a capable benchrest rig is, at the end of the day, playing certain odds and there are two things to consider. First do you want the odds so the wind is at your back or in your face? Second, do you want equipment that you can aspire to grow into or may outgrow? Lastly, and not to be overlooked, a decent BR gun, properly looked after, will maintain decent value. Generally a Cooper, especially a tampered one.......you're lucky to avoid taking a beating IMHO.
Here's a free piece of advice. You want something you can invest in that you will enjoy, get a good used gun. They're out there. Solicit help, be patient, do some homework, and check with folks that are familiar with an offered gun( they all shot in matches) and you will get something at reasonable prices. We have all gotten good guns like this.....me included.
I understand your points Tim. They seem valid enough. And I'm not trying to convince anyone to choose a Cooper. I just feel that with some massaging they will compete with the customs.
Some of the Coopers I shoot against have their factory barrel & some have been rebarreled. All have had Jard triggers installed. And all have had work done on the stocks.
One of the factory barreled guns shot a 250 19x this weekend. SHE doesn't use flags! How's that! ;) That wouldn't put you in the running at a big match?
Thanks for your input.
Keith

linekin
06-10-2014, 10:09 PM
The only advice Ill offer here is that if you ever plan to compete in national matches either PSL ARA or IR 50/50 then you will want a rifle that you can compete with, go to those disciplines web sites and do some research look at the equipment lists and you will see in pretty short order that a cooper is not what you would want ( Ive never even seen one listed). It could be possible that one has won in the distant past but I have never even seen anyone shoot one(not a single one) and I have been to just about every big match since around 2009, but look it up for yourself. Now this is not a bash of a cooper it is just a fact. I am one to swim against the tide a bit as well I shoot a Suhl and it is competitive. If your friend wants to prove his competitiveness against the state of rimfire bench rest there is going to be a PSL in Bristol Tenn on june the 21st and a IR 50/50 unlimited Nationals the same day in fairchance PA show up and prove all us wrong about what has been said about the coopers, it is that simple.
MC

Mike, thanks for response. I started the thread as Cooper but you reminded me of what you're Suhl is capable off. I just feel that there are some great shooting factory actions being used & used competitively.
I don't know why no one has taken one to a National match. I haven't been around long enough. But it seems odd that nobody has. Ever?
I didn't post this thread for Gary if that's what you're referring to. He's a big boy. He can take care of himself. I just can't figure out why a 250 in ME is any different than one in Tenn.??
If I had to guess why none are used is everyone wants what the winner of a big match has. Whatever it is.
Case in point. You took that Suhl & CenterX ( correct me if I'm wrong) & I'd be willing to bet that Lapua's sales took a huge jump. People follow what they see doing well. Makes sense.
Mike, thanks
Keith

linekin
06-10-2014, 10:16 PM
Take those coopers to a big event and see just how good they can run with the big dogs. I'm not saying they are no good but just a few in Maine is not going to sway me one bit. I'll keep my turbo and you guys can keep all the coopers you want.

Sam, I'm not trying to sway anyone. But I have a question. Is a 250 different in NC than ME?
Keith

Jefferson
06-10-2014, 10:54 PM
deep creek montana for 1000 yard shoots

tacoma wshington for short range Br shoots

easier ranges to shoot in

how do we know your home range is not a TUNNEL

now do you understand, all ranges are not created equal with respect to the wind and conditions


Jefferson

Pete Wass
06-11-2014, 01:17 AM
Pete,

You're right. I stand corrected and bow to your superior knowledge and expertise in this matter. What was I thinking. :rolleyes:

I have yet to become clairvoyant :).

Pete

linekin
06-11-2014, 05:40 AM
deep creek montana for 1000 yard shoots

tacoma wshington for short range Br shoots

easier ranges to shoot in

how do we know your home range is not a TUNNEL

now do you understand, all ranges are not created equal with respect to the wind and conditions


Jefferson

I understand your point Jefferson & its valid. Maybe our range is a honey hole at times. It is a bowl with berms on either side of it with an opening down near the targets. Behind the benches is open. I see those flags do some pretty strange things there though.
You guys are all right in saying that until someone does something elsewhere with one that my point is mute.
Look guys, I'm not saying that Coopers will dominate anything. Far from it. But I feel they are competitive. And I guess that word has different meanings to all of us.
I don't need to win a match to feel good about how I've shot. If I'm in the upper half that's fine with me. As long as I've learned something, shot decent, & am fed lunch I'm a happy man. And mostly for me its about the people I meet.
Keith

linekin
06-11-2014, 05:47 AM
[QUOTE=Ted Derivan;735073]I have 3 Coopers. My first is a Jackson Squirrel that I shoot offhand, in some club fun shots on the bench, and last year as my sporter. It is a nice gun, I think 245 is the best score with it. The second is a TRP-3 that I ordered in the summer, it came in March. I shot it at a 200yd fun shoot placed 5th. I like both guns but the most reliable, straightest, and enjoyable of the three is here:
14930

The Team Eck Mini Cooper


Ted Derivan[/

Ted, I feel like your JSR has a couple points more in it. With a BR stock I believe it would. You & it shot great I thought. But you've got a better one now so why bother!:D
As for the Mini........not so much.
Keith

First Sergeant
06-11-2014, 12:40 PM
[QUOTE=Ted Derivan;735073]I have 3 Coopers. My first is a Jackson Squirrel that I shoot offhand, in some club fun shots on the bench, and last year as my sporter. It is a nice gun, I think 245 is the best score with it. The second is a TRP-3 that I ordered in the summer, it came in March. I shot it at a 200yd fun shoot placed 5th. I like both guns but the most reliable, straightest, and enjoyable of the three is here:
14930

The Team Eck Mini Cooper


Ted Derivan[/

Ted, I feel like your JSR has a couple points more in it. With a BR stock I believe it would. You & it shot great I thought. But you've got a better one now so why bother!:D
As for the Mini........not so much.
Keith
All I want for Christmas is a Sporter, based on a Cooper 57m action, getting The Captain focused is another story. #5 and #6 are a pair. Why not a pair of Coopers?