PDA

View Full Version : Inside case neck cleaning?



kdvarmint
05-03-2014, 08:02 AM
How I'm doing it now is with a Hoppes nylon bore brush in the same caliber. Wile twisting in one direction, run the brush in and out of the case 3 times. Should I be doing more? Thoughts and suggestions.

Lee Martin
05-03-2014, 10:25 AM
Sounds fine to me. I run a Redding nylon brush in and out three times. It does a fair job in removing residue.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Boyd Allen
05-03-2014, 11:09 AM
I know one Benchrest Hall of Fame member, that does not clean the inside of his case necks. Years back he did some testing and went with what gave the best accuracy. I use worn bronze bore brushes and push then in and out of the case neck about 3 times. Maybe that is why I am not in the Hall of Fame.;)

ReedG
05-03-2014, 01:34 PM
I do about the same as Lee. I use a nylon bristle brush one caliber larger than the case and push it in, rotate it and pull it out and repeat. There are lots of ways to skin cats in this here reloading "hobby" but I have a belief that the coating of "soot" or carbon or whatever it is that's left inside the neck after brushing is an important and necessary factor in consistent neck tension. Probably can't prove and that's OK with me. I'm just a middle-of-the-pack shooter and that's OK with me, too.

mikecr
05-03-2014, 01:50 PM
I wipe soot off the outside of necks, but what's inside(that's loose) is plenty taken care of with standard vibratory cleaning.
It doesn't affect tension as that's a matter of brass springback, and it is a positive for consistent seating force. Our friend really..

If it happened that neck IDs did not soot on firing, we would put it there as an extra step in reloading.

Lee Martin
05-03-2014, 01:50 PM
I agree. I've never had a need to clean all the way down to bare brass. A few old benchresters told me years ago that carbon film is important for consistent tension. Instead, I'm only concerned with removing loose excess.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

ReedG
05-03-2014, 01:53 PM
I'd also like to add that I see post after post referring to what some "Hall of Fame" benchrest shooter does with his loads. Now that I've been around this thing for a decade, put on a few dozen events, and met several of these HoF types, here's my statement:

Not one of the HoF shooters got there by cleaning or not cleaning the inside of their case necks. Most of them couldn't spell concentricity, say nothing about check it. They did what made sense to them, found a load that shot "good enough" and then learned how to shoot it. Any HoF shooter I've witnessed at our matches would have become an HoF member shooting my loads, or Boyd's loads, or anybody's loads that were tailored to the gun.

What put them in the HoF is their competitive spirit, ability to read conditions and interpret what they say, and bench discipline. Lots of those HoF shooters were shooting loads that were put together on the hood of a pickup with a powder measure that hadn't been adjusted in 10 years and using a seating die they didn't even remember when they last set it. Their loads probably varied 3 tenths of grain on a good day, Lord only knows what the "concentricity" of the rounds were, and some of them, especially in the 6 PPC era, pounded the bolt shut with the palm of their hand because the cases had never been FL sized, never had the shoulder bumped more than occasionally.

Then they put the whole shebang into an old fixed front rest with a squeezey rear bag and proceeded to put 'em in little holes. Great stuff to watch.

New technology and practices have helped to overwhelm their older records, but even today I don't believe the top shooters are where they are because of their handloads. It's because of better barrels, better actions, better scopes, better rests ... but seldom because of cleaner case necks.

kdvarmint
05-03-2014, 06:50 PM
Thanks for the replies.
kd

CYanchycki
05-03-2014, 06:52 PM
I do about the same as Lee. I use a nylon bristle brush one caliber larger than the case and push it in, rotate it and pull it out and repeat. There are lots of ways to skin cats in this here reloading "hobby" but I have a belief that the coating of "soot" or carbon or whatever it is that's left inside the neck after brushing is an important and necessary factor in consistent neck tension. Probably can't prove and that's OK with me. I'm just a middle-of-the-pack shooter and that's OK with me, too.

3 times just once.........

Slide it in

Rotate a few times

then pull out


This does not sound good......................................:o

Bill Gammon
05-03-2014, 07:40 PM
Cleaning the inside of a case neck, what is that????????

Gene Beggs
05-03-2014, 10:45 PM
No, it doesn't. :)

Is it necessary to brush out case necks each time? :confused:

No, not in my opinion. :cool:

This question comes up from time to time and the consensus is about 50-50 those who do and those who don't. :p

When I first began shooting benchrest in '87/'88, I brushed out case necks each time because that's the way I was taught. I also cleaned primer pockets, used a Crazy cloth on the outside of the necks each time etc., etc. Being the slow, plodding type that I am, I was always the last one back to the line between relays. Cecil Tucker used to say, "Well come on grandpa." :rolleyes: Needless to say; I had to look for ways to save time. Brushing out case necks had to go if it didn't affect accuracy. I conducted a quick and dirty test.

I tried leaving the soot that remained after firing undisturbed to see if it did indeed build up as some said it would. Using a tenth ball mike, I found the neck wall thickness never changed even after dozens of firings. Since then, I have dispensed with the practice. Does it make a difference one way or the other? Nah,, probably not. :p At my age and as slow as I am, I can't afford to be doing anything that isn't absolutely necessary. :o

Later,

Gene Beggs

JerrySharrett
05-04-2014, 06:01 AM
Gene, watch many of the HOF'ers reloading. They nearly all clean case necks. Many use worn bore brushes and some use nylon brushes. IMO, the bronze brushes work best.

Take a borescope and look closely at the inside of the neck of brass that has been shot a few times. Brush those necks with a nylon brush and reinspect. Some of the loose fouling will be gone but much will still be present. Then brush the necks again with the bronze brush and the fouling will be gone. I keep a rechargeable drill with a bronze brush at my loading area and use it every 2-3 firings.

Does this help accuracy? I can't see how it could hurt. After all a big part of accuracy is repeating everything exactly. Otherwise you have induced more variables into the loop.

kdvarmint
05-04-2014, 08:00 AM
I posted because for 6 years of loading I haven't been. Just started using the method as in my op. Guess I'll soon see the difference or lack of.;)

Wilbur
05-04-2014, 02:31 PM
The only reason to clean the case necks is for a more consistent feel when seating the bullet. That doesn't do anything for the group you're about to shoot. It does, however, make you feel good about your those loads you just cobbled up...and if you ain't winning you may as well feel good about it.

Read the post by ReedG until it makes sense and you realize what you've read.

amamnn
05-07-2014, 11:51 AM
Nylon brush + lightweight cordless screwdriver with adapter (if needed) for little bitty things like the shank of the brush. Sit in front of the TV or out on the front porch and have at it. Makes you look like you know what you are doing and sorta semi-high tech. Also gives you something to do with your hands so you don't smoke or eat snacks--well, at least not as fast and hopefully not as much. And it can't hurt.....

Andy Cross
05-07-2014, 06:39 PM
When I initially got into BR shooting I didn't clean inside the necks. But I found after 5 to 6 reloads from new brass I could feel some resistance a sort of dry rubbing sensation throughout the press when seating the bullets. Cleaning the inside of the necks stopped it. I don't know if that build up made accuracy suffer but I can't imaging it could be enhancing it. My aggs did get smaller but that was mainly due to getting more practice. In any case I will continue to clean the insides because I don't like the feel if I don't.
Andy.

goodgrouper
05-07-2014, 07:41 PM
I started out cleaning necks. Then went away from it. I noticed during that time that some bullets didn't seat as consistently as others. Sometimes there was a couple thou difference. So I went back to cleaning necks. It does make the bullets seat more consistent.......at least in my brass! One pass with a tight fitting neck brush should suffice.

Bill Gammon
05-08-2014, 07:34 AM
You know that when you pull the trigger you unleash 65 to 70 thousand lbs per sq inch of pressure, PPC, do you really believe it gives a s__t if your case neck is clean?? just my observation. I see shooters spend so much time trying to get that extra .100 on their group and then miss a 1/2 inch condition on the range. Goes along with the 5 pcs of brass are for the top target and the rest are for sighters. If you can't believe your sighters, OH WELL!! I am rambling again.

Uthink Uknow
05-08-2014, 07:51 AM
Inside neck clean according to my method but don't do it near Gammon.
Use one capful of Listerine, gargle until you can't stand it any longer, expectorate what is left. It isn't really a waste of alcohol.

goodgrouper
05-08-2014, 02:22 PM
You know that when you pull the trigger you unleash 65 to 70 thousand lbs per sq inch of pressure, PPC, do you really believe it gives a s__t if your case neck is clean??


No Bill, the trigger doesn't care one way or another.:D;)
And the brass is going to let loose of that bullet whether it's coated in carbon or not. But, if the carbon is impeding the bullet from seating consistently (ie the bullets are in a different place in the chamber, or in other words, starting off in different places in relationship to the riflings), isn't it likely then that it may shoot differently? Ever have your seating die stem come loose in the middle of an agg and wonder why you went from shooting .1's to .3's? Dirty necks can (at least in my experience) give you a similar result....your bullets are all different. It's all about consistency AND watching those brightly colored, twirly things out yonder..........

Normmatzen
05-08-2014, 08:38 PM
ReedG, in my opinion, is a fellow to listen to!

What he said about the HoF shooters i think is brilliant. I, too, have met a bunch of these guys and most of them are pretty shrewd, but most are minimally educated and "use what works." Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't say they were dumb!
I have gotten to the point where my lab balance weighs loads to a granule, my bullet seating force is accurate to a couple pounds, i use the best bullets available and on and on. What I have really done was eliminate all my excuses! At the end of the day, these guys plain out shoot me! I am having a hard time learning to read the wind and the mirage, but these HoF guys don't even remember how they read these things, they just point the gun and pull the trigger!
So, until I can read the wind without really noticing what I am doing as well as noticing the mirage and accounting for it I will still finish mid pack at the nationals and maybe get some ribbons at club matches. I just have to pull the trigger a lot more!

Liseo
05-08-2014, 09:58 PM
When I initially got into BR shooting I didn't clean inside the necks. But I found after 5 to 6 reloads from new brass I could feel some resistance a sort of dry rubbing sensation throughout the press when seating the bullets. Cleaning the inside of the necks stopped it. I don't know if that build up made accuracy suffer but I can't imaging it could be enhancing it. My aggs did get smaller but that was mainly due to getting more practice. In any case I will continue to clean the insides because I don't like the feel if I don't.
Andy.


Thats what I figured.. If I clean the necks, feel less resistance to seat the bullet

Boyd Allen
05-08-2014, 10:41 PM
IMO the best way to "feel" is at the target. That is where you rifle tells you what IT thinks is important, and beyond that, your opinion (or mine) simply does not matter.

kdvarmint
05-09-2014, 07:17 AM
do you really believe it gives a s__t if your case neck is clean??.

Just speaking for myself, I know when I pay close attention to detail with my loads, I "feel" good about them. Say if I get in a hurry and skip cleaning primer pockets, or weighing bullets, I know in my head I skipped something. May not make any difference, but what is in ones head can have a big impact.

Andy Cross
05-11-2014, 05:39 AM
IMO the best way to "feel" is at the target. That is where you rifle tells you what IT thinks is important, and beyond that, your opinion (or mine) simply does not matter.

It's never just one thing you do or don't do that makes a rifle shoot poorly just like it usually isn't one thing that makes an aircraft crash. To clean the necks or not you will never be able to identify how much or little that portion of the process contributed to the size of the group. I just don't like the way it feels when seating the bullets. Pure and simple.
Andy.

Joe Salt
05-11-2014, 12:13 PM
Andy I'm with you keep them clean. I go a little more by using moly inside the necks after there clean, because it does make a difference at 1000 yards. Never leave a rock unturned! Maybe its my H-4350 is to dirty. But when I'm done they all seat the same, Feel and OVAL.

Joe Salt

Lee Martin
05-11-2014, 02:09 PM
Not to go off subject, but what about outside neck cleaning? My dad and I lightly scuff them with steel wool after firing.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Joe Salt
05-11-2014, 05:15 PM
What I can't figure out is why you are concerned about carbon build up in one place and not others? If you are using it as a lubricant for the bullet sooner or later it has to be dealt with! Easier to keep them clean than to say I should have.

Joe Salt

JerrySharrett
05-11-2014, 08:26 PM
One fly more to bring into this ointment about clean necks. I know personally a current shooter who has won a 4-gun, 3-gun, 2-gun and several grands in the recent past. He is a stickler about neck cleanliness even though his brass is discarded after each big shoot or after two smaller shoots.

The point? If this shooter has reason to keep clean necks imagine how, potentially, neck carbon buildup could effect some shooters brass who use the same brass for years!! The reality of the potential effect probably could include, in a particular situation, cartridge neck to chamber neck clearance, neck tension and powder burn cleanliness among other factors

Example, if a shooter is running 0.0005" clearance, and some do, and another shooter is running 0.004" clearance, and some do, the shooter running 0.0005" clearance would probably be more effected by buildup than the 0.004" shooter.

On that subject, I'll wager a majority of shooters don't know what their ACTUAL neck wall clearance is. Do you measure the neck diameter of each chamber before you install that new barrel? Do you measure the actual neck diameter with the bullet seated or do you simply measure brass neck wall thickness?

Joe Salt
05-11-2014, 09:50 PM
Jerry thats why some people use Sonic cleaners to clean their brass, and some just fire there brass just once or twice. Boyd you sure let people get under your skin, I'm in the Hall of Fame, that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at Dunkin Donuts! I'm in it for the shooting!

Joe Salt

Joe Salt
05-12-2014, 08:43 AM
Boyd & GoodGrouper you are both very talented Writers, wish I could do as well in that aspect explaining about all the mistakes I made in loading and Shooting in the last 45 years, I'd have a Damn book out that was paying for my habit! GoodGrouper you are right about people having a good barrel and getting into the hall of fame, My wife happens to be one of them. She couldn't tell you a seizing die from seater die. But I taught her how to shoot and that I'm very proud of. Now answer MY question why would you make sure there is no carbon in your barrel or wherever but leave it inside the necks? Doesn't make sense!

Joe Salt

Boyd Allen
05-12-2014, 09:10 AM
Hi Joe,
Thank you for the compliment. As I posted earlier in the threat, the fellow that I wrote of, that has amassed such a fine record in short range benchrest, decided to test rather than assume what was best, and he went with what that test told him worked the best. Looking at his results, I would be hard pressed to criticize his choice. IMO many times we assume things without testing them rigorously. Back in the day, I assumed that running closer neck clearance in tight necked chambers would give better results. In the last few years, I have become aware that some very successful shooters think otherwise. That is just one example. There are others, all of which involve differences between what one would think, and what actually is the case based on testing of one sort or another.
Boyd

Joe Salt
05-12-2014, 10:08 AM
Boyd I drove myself nuts by trying to leave carbon in the necks and even taking some out, My neck tension was bad my seating was way too far out. So what I ended up doing was polish the insides, with 0000 steel wool, then us moly neck sizing powder on the inside, the problem went away. If you want some names I showed this to Jason Baney He Wrote an article on 6BR. about it, of course he didn't use my name. But he was sure happy.

Joe Salt

abintx
05-12-2014, 11:06 AM
How I'm doing it now is with a Hoppes nylon bore brush in the same caliber. Wile twisting in one direction, run the brush in and out of the case 3 times. Should I be doing more? Thoughts and suggestions.

That's fine. Just be consistent. I chuck my RCBS nylon brush in a portable drill and run it in and out of the neck a couple of times.

None of this is etched in stone or rocket science, just keep it simple and consistent. :)

Boyd Allen
05-12-2014, 11:10 AM
Joe,
Any tip that reduces variability is a good one. I think part of what is going on here is the difference between short range benchrest with short bullets, and 600 and 1,000 yard shooting with long BTs. If I remember correctly, you primarily shoot long range, and for that, it is my understanding that ES is extremely important. In the short range game, it is much less so. Personally, I tend to pay attention to the differences in how much force it takes to seat bullets, and the powder that I have shot the most of seems to like a lot of neck tension, which can be in short supply with necks about .008 thick, and having only about .130 or so of the shank of the bullet in the case neck. In the long range game, I would expect that the higher sectional densities and possibly greater amount of bullet shank in case necks would make having enough bullet pull and back pressure against the powder easier, and although I have no information about slower powders bullet pull force preferences, I have had some experience with short range powders that seem to hot have much of a requirement for that. In any case, I will file your information for future use.

goodgrouper
05-12-2014, 12:12 PM
Hi Joe,
the fellow that I wrote of, that has amassed such a fine record in short range benchrest, decided to test rather than assume what was best, and he went with what that test told him worked the best.
Boyd

Yep. I agree. See post #18. ;)

Joe Salt
05-12-2014, 03:48 PM
YEP So I say to each his own. I'm just giving you things to try or think about!

Joe Salt