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ColColt
03-19-2014, 07:00 PM
I'm getting ready to delve into the realm of neck turning my Lapua .222 cases and concerned about one area. I've read the neck needs to be sized all the way to the neck/shoulder junction as to not create a weak place there. I don't seem to have a die that can do that. I tried my Redding bushing die and it lacks some .030-.040" or so. My FL die gets closer but still lacks several thousandths. It will size the mouth to .2488" but the neck/shoulder area is still .2525". Does this matter?

Fergus Bailey
03-19-2014, 07:55 PM
Does this matter?

I shoot a number of match cartridges using replaceable sizing bushings (ie Redding or custom made FL dies), and in my view the answer is "no". In fact I prefer a small portion of the neck to not get sized if possible for alignment of the case in the chamber.

The only issue would be if you are seating a bullet with a "pressure ring" in deeper than the sized portion of the neck. Aside from that I don't think think you have an issue.

I certainly dont think you have any issues with a "weak spot" from not being able to size the whole neck.

ColColt
03-19-2014, 08:17 PM
Thanks, that's what I needed to know. I use a .248" bushing now and figured I'd have to go to perhaps a .247" once the turning is over. Fortunately, I have one. Checking the neck thickness most average .0135-.012", not bad but if I make them all .012" I figured the smaller bushing should work fine.

Greyfox
03-19-2014, 09:50 PM
If your neck diameter doesn't require neck turning to get a .002 clearance, I can't see any advantage in turning necks. In all likelihood you will just increase the clearance and give the brass more expansion. This will mean that the brass will get worked more and not last as long. Since you are using Lapua brass, it should be uniform enough that you won't gain anything at all. Why is it you feel the need to turn the necks?

Rick

ColColt
03-19-2014, 10:15 PM
For uniformity, primarily. I haven't measured all the cases but, some of the fired cases will accept a bullet while others won't. There has to be a variation there somewhere.

Greyfox
03-19-2014, 10:35 PM
For uniformity, primarily. I haven't measured all the cases but, some of the fired cases will accept a bullet while others won't. There has to be a variation there somewhere.

Not having the advantage of seeing your setup, dies etc, it's all speculation. But, that being said, it seems unlikely to me that you would have that much variation in Lapua cases. Before you start down the road of neck turning which could very well make matters worse, you might think about getting a ball mic and measuring your case walls. Maybe you are correct and they won't aren't uniform and that's where your problem lies. But it would still be a good idea to determine that before you spend the time, $$ and work to turn your cases. It really isn't all that much fun.

Rick

Boyd Allen
03-19-2014, 10:50 PM
Unturned neck taper in thickness. What you are seeing with your non bushing FL die could be because of this, if the expander ball is in place when you size. If your neck increases in size slightly after running an expander mandrel in it (normal pre turning prep) they your sizing is ok for turning.

ColColt
03-19-2014, 10:57 PM
The ball mike is arriving tomorrow. I've just checked the necks with a caliper and I know that's not the best instrument for doing so and why I ordered the ball mike. I'll know more then. I don't want to make things worse for sure but thought a light skimming would help. I sure don't want to destroy these cases so a bit of practice may be in order after checking with the ball mike.

I was mostly looking for another way to improve on bullet tension, concentricity and grouping and figured this was the next step. I've never tried it before so it's an area of mystique at this point. the tool is a 21st Century neck turner with the titanium turning arbor and carbide cutter.

ColColt
03-19-2014, 11:07 PM
If your neck increases in size slightly after running an expander mandrel in it (normal pre turning prep) they your sizing is ok for turning.

I'll check to see if the expander mandrel makes the difference. Is it necessary after turning to again resize the neck with either the collet or bushing die?

Greyfox
03-20-2014, 08:44 AM
I'll check to see if the expander mandrel makes the difference. Is it necessary after turning to again resize the neck with either the collet or bushing die?

I always size the neck again with a bushing die after neck turning. I do think that Boyd is referring to the expander mandrel that matches your neck turner. Personally, I throw away the expander balls that come with dies.

Rick

Uthink Uknow
03-20-2014, 09:58 AM
I guess the question that comes to me is: Why? I mean why turn? Is there something special about your chamber reamer, specifically the neck area? The reason I ask is that I feel you may be going down a slippery slope here. When turning to achieve uniformity, you naturally take metal off the neck. So now you have more clearance between the case neck and the chamber neck. Now you have more working or moving of brass and naturally more hardening of the brass when you pull the trigger. This may bring on annealing for you or shorter brass life. So, how do you combat that? You'll probably need a custom reamer with a different neck dimension. So what are you planning to do with this rifle?

Greyfox
03-20-2014, 10:50 AM
I guess the question that comes to me is: Why? I mean why turn? Is there something special about your chamber reamer, specifically the neck area? The reason I ask is that I feel you may be going down a slippery slope here. When turning to achieve uniformity, you naturally take metal off the neck. So now you have more clearance between the case neck and the chamber neck. Now you have more working or moving of brass and naturally more hardening of the brass when you pull the trigger. This may bring on annealing for you or shorter brass life. So, how do you combat that? You'll probably need a custom reamer with a different neck dimension. So what are you planning to do with this rifle?

+1

Rick

ColColt
03-20-2014, 12:48 PM
When turning to achieve uniformity, you naturally take metal off the neck. So now you have more clearance between the case neck and the chamber neck.

Is that not the case regardless of rifle/chamber?


So what are you planning to do with this rifle?

Punching paper, like most of us. Do you think it's an exercise in futility to try and get as much accuracy out of this rifle as possible by trying to make all cases uniform? I weigh bullets, cases, charge cases by hand, use a bushing die, seat the bullets with a Forster Bench Rest seat die, turning is just another step hopefully toward better groups.

SGJennings
03-20-2014, 01:23 PM
Is that not the case regardless of rifle/chamber?

No.

When we turn necks, at least most of us, are turning necks are doing it in custom chambered, tight-necked barrels.

I.e., the reamer is set up to cut a chamber that allows us to turn necks down, generally for uniformity, without getting slopping case-neck to chamber-neck fit.

So, if you are shooting in a factory 222 Remington chamber, turning your necks is likely a waste of time as the bullet has already released before the case neck comes in contact with the chamber neck.

Hope that makes sense.

ColColt
03-20-2014, 02:09 PM
So, if you are shooting in a factory 222 Remington chamber, turning your necks is likely a waste of time as the bullet has already released before the case neck comes in contact with the chamber neck.

Hope that makes sense.

It does but, I hate to hear it as I've already bought the turner. I just thought I was doing something good to improve the accuracy of the Sako Vixen Heavy barrel rifle I have.

Would a light "clean up" help anyway? In other words, just hit the high spots.

ColColt
03-20-2014, 02:58 PM
The turner and ball mike just arrived. It seems, as some have indicated, I've made a big mistake. According to the ball mike the Lapua cases vary .013-.0135". Even my Winchester 270 brass varies but .002-.003" which for a hunting rifle I would feel acceptable. I guess I bought the farm. Admittedly, I was wrong.

Dick Grosbier
03-20-2014, 05:05 PM
Does this matter?

No.

Boyd Allen
03-20-2014, 06:35 PM
Years back, make that decades, I compared turned vs. unturned using a reasonably good shooting Remington .222, and found no advantage. what are the diameters of your case mouths, in loaded and fired conditions? What I am getting at is what sort of clearance your loaded rounds have. I usually figure that the chamber neck is about a thousandth larger than the fired neck of a case that has been trimmed before firing. Factory loaded rounds, that were crimped a little, and bulk brass that has the ends of its necks deformed when they were tumbled, need to be fired and trimmed first, and softer brass does not spring back as much as harder. I should mention that that was before I was loading at the range, using wind flags, or knew as much about working up loads.

Dick Grosbier
03-20-2014, 06:54 PM
The turner and ball mike just arrived. It seems, as some have indicated, I've made a big mistake. According to the ball mike the Lapua cases vary .013-.0135". Even my Winchester 270 brass varies but .002-.003" which for a hunting rifle I would feel acceptable. I guess I bought the farm. Admittedly, I was wrong.
If you said this was a custom chamber I never saw it. If you are talking about a Factory chamber you are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.
With the consistency of modern brass particularly Lapua, or Norma, neck turning is hardly necessary even in custom chambers. 30 years ago when I started shooting BR the best available brass neck thickness varied a lot, so necks were cut smaller and neck turning was necessary. In a Factory chamber neck turning increases the amount the brass necks are worked and leads to shorter brass life, also not a good thing.
Dick

Greyfox
03-20-2014, 07:03 PM
The turner and ball mike just arrived. It seems, as some have indicated, I've made a big mistake. According to the ball mike the Lapua cases vary .013-.0135". Even my Winchester 270 brass varies but .002-.003" which for a hunting rifle I would feel acceptable. I guess I bought the farm. Admittedly, I was wrong.

I wouldn't get too upset about buying neck turning tools. If you stay in the accuracy game you will eventually get something with a custom chamber that will require turning necks. Just put 'em on the shelf and wait a while. You'll be glad you have them when the need arises. I don't think I've bought any tools that haven't been needed eventually.

Rick

ColColt
03-20-2014, 09:39 PM
Fired cases measure .254". That should make the chamber neck that size or .001" more so, .255". Loaded rounds measure .250". When using the Redding bushing die the bushing is .248".

this is not a custom rifle. It's a Sako Vixen L461 Heavy Barrel with beaver tail stock. It shoots good I just wanted to wring all the accuracy I could from it but now doubt I can shoot good enough to notice any difference in turning or not. My groups this past Tuesday ran .532-.221". I suppose for a factory rifle I should be pleased.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/My%20Targets/_DEF4644ac_zps60a71698.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/My%20Targets/_DEF4644ac_zps60a71698.jpg.html)

alinwa
03-20-2014, 11:13 PM
One of the things that never seems to get mentioned in these threads is the reason WHY tight-necks/turned necks were invented. And there is a reason, not some esoteric thing like "concentricity" nor "consistency" nor "bullet release" (whatever THAT is!) but a real, valid REASON for turned necks. The neck of the case is what supports and guides the bullet as it's being HAMMERED into the lands with 600+ pounds of swirling buffeting hammerforce, the neck of the case is the GUIDING MEANS for this insertion, hence the neck clearance directly relates to the linearity of the insertion.

That's 600 POUNDS, not "psi" of some tender "pressure front," it takes 600lb of force, a 600lb WEIGHT on an iron rod to start the bullet. A jiggling, wiggling shaking and baking iron rod......

Bottom line......The bullet WILL be cocked over as much as the neck clearance allows.

WILL BE cocked over,

cannot help but be cocked.

That bullet ain't gonna' magickally float in the center of the hole while the 600lb monkey footstomps it into the rabbithole.

Hence fitted necks.

Something to consider.

al

BTW, groups is 5 shots.

Uthink Uknow
03-21-2014, 07:47 AM
Well, I must disagree.
The entire case holds the bullet in alignment. It's nice if the neck is also in concert.
Who can say that the neck hasn't expanded to the dimension of the chamber before that split second when the bullet is going, going, gone? The close proximity of case neck to chamber dimension has as much to do with brass movement and case longevity as it does with seating pressure uniformity and release inertia. Seating depth and contact with the lands also aids in bullet alignment with the barrel. It helps if Venus is in alignment with Cassiopeia.

Greyfox
03-21-2014, 08:46 AM
Fired cases measure .254". That should make the chamber neck that size or .001" more so, .255". Loaded rounds measure .250". When using the Redding bushing die the bushing is .248".

this is not a custom rifle. It's a Sako Vixen L461 Heavy Barrel with beaver tail stock. It shoots good I just wanted to wring all the accuracy I could from it but now doubt I can shoot good enough to notice any difference in turning or not. My groups this past Tuesday ran .532-.221". I suppose for a factory rifle I should be pleased.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/My%20Targets/_DEF4644ac_zps60a71698.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/My%20Targets/_DEF4644ac_zps60a71698.jpg.html)

There's a good chance your rifle is shooting better than you think. Seems like we've had some of this discussion in the past, but are you using any kind of wind flags? A 5-7mph gust of wind that you don't see somewhere between you and the target could easily cause that flyer you are looking at. And of course, there are all sorts of gun handling issues that can comp0licate things. I can shoot a benchrest rifle fairly well on a good day, but I just sold a very accurate Sako 6PPC because I could not manage to get the hold right on the setup up to consistently shoot. The fault was not in the rifle.

Rick

SGJennings
03-21-2014, 09:18 AM
That's a nice little group. Keep it up. Check out this site: http://www.tripledeuce.net/ .

Barrel, Bullet, Bedding is the old saw. If you aren't using great bullets, try some custom 22 bullets. You might check into getting it pillar bedded, if it isn't already.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings

ColColt
03-21-2014, 06:10 PM
The closest thing to wind flags we have are ribbons someone tied to the bottom of the frames at the 100 and 200 yard targets. There was a crosswind that day but not bad and not having a meter to check I could only go by what the weatherman reported that morning of 4-5 mph winds. I suspect more than that it was me that was off a bit on my sighting.

The only bullets I've tried have been several Sierra and Berger in the 52-53 gr range but have recently acquired some Sierra 50 gr Blitz bullets. Those are the better ones I know about.

alinwa
03-21-2014, 07:52 PM
Well, I must disagree.
The entire case holds the bullet in alignment. It's nice if the neck is also in concert.
Who can say that the neck hasn't expanded to the dimension of the chamber before that split second when the bullet is going, going, gone? The close proximity of case neck to chamber dimension has as much to do with brass movement and case longevity as it does with seating pressure uniformity and release inertia. Seating depth and contact with the lands also aids in bullet alignment with the barrel. It helps if Venus is in alignment with Cassiopeia.

LOL! You don't read so good does you Uthink



Who can say that the neck hasn't expanded to the dimension of the chamber before that split second when the bullet is going, going, gone?

Well, I can, for one ;) state with certainty that the neck HAS expanded fully to seal before the bullet engraves....

And by the way, Wenus and Cassiopeia don't enter into it, I'm about what DOES happen, not about what "might" or "could" happen in this or some alternate reality......I'm about testing and measuring and about reading of others' testing and measuring. The ignition/pressure curve within the case is well understood, it's not a matter of alchemy nor guesswork..

Greyfox
03-21-2014, 08:22 PM
The closest thing to wind flags we have are ribbons someone tied to the bottom of the frames at the 100 and 200 yard targets. There was a crosswind that day but not bad and not having a meter to check I could only go by what the weatherman reported that morning of 4-5 mph winds. I suspect more than that it was me that was off a bit on my sighting.

The only bullets I've tried have been several Sierra and Berger in the 52-53 gr range but have recently acquired some Sierra 50 gr Blitz bullets. Those are the better ones I know about.

It's pretty much impossible to get where you want to be without a decent set of wind flags. You might gain a bit with some custom match bullets, but flags are worth more than you will pay for them and good ones aren't exactly cheap. OTOH-anything is better than what you have.

Rick

alinwa
03-22-2014, 07:58 PM
Splain to me how the bullet will be cockeyed if the case is aligned in the chamber provided the neck is not catty wampass and the brass isn't flexing like used bubble gum. The case is a tighter fit than the neck, remember. Add to that the fact that the bullet has to been sent on its way as the bullet seating tension is such that it, the bullet, is released with less resistance that that of brass stretching. While it is true that the neck expands and seals the "chamber" the true resistance doesn't begin until the bullet engages the barrel beyond the free bore.

I can't speak for the other guy who disagrees but, I think I read well and I absorb what is written by people more learned than you or me. I believe this subject is outside of your area of expertise.

I don't know what a lot of this means, explains or implies (except the last part), but it seems to support my contention without meaning to.

Here's what DOES happen, unless your chamber is designed like a Weatherby or Edge.

#1-As pressure builds in the case the bullet slides forward to stop on the "leade" or tapered beginning of the lands..... or, in most accuracy situations it's already there. most bullets in accurate rigs are seated within a few thou of the lands.

#2-As pressure continues to build the case pops out, neck first to seal the chamber. This is it's primary function. If this function is compromised the results are dramatic. Some of us have actually experienced this, some of us can state with fair certainty that the neck DOES POP OUT TO SEAL because when it doesn't all sorts of cool stuff happens. Some of us have tested and observed that the smart guys who wrote the books were speaking truth.

#3-When the neck pops out to seal on a typical chamber, THE REAR OF THE BULLET IS STILL IN THE NECK. The last guiding support on the bullet is the neck...... not the body of the case or the headspace, the NECK. But the neck just LET GO....This leaves the base of the bullet unsupported.

The rest seems obvious. The bullet hasn't moved yet, the rear end is waggling in the breeze, the front end is butted up to the leade, trying to engage but needing 600lb of pressure to do so........ and it's just hanging there, unsupported, or it may have a section of freebore to "hold it in place."

But for those of you who, like FBecigneul, feel I'm unqualified to make these assertions please do some research. Start with Harold Vaughn's 'Rifle Accuracy Facts' and continue with Rinker's 'Understanding Firearms Ballistics' and finish up with Howell's 'Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges For Rifles and Handguns' and you'll have a fair understanding of what goes on.....

Beats guessing.

For those of you who want to TEST this stuff, do like I have...... buy reamers in sets of six with progressively larger necks, buy them with zero freebore and buy a bunch of throating reamers. I can help you with the design (diameter, leade angle, steps/angle changes if you want, I've tried up to three) and show you how to modify Kiff's throaters for hand-held use. Now with a few notebooks and a range of powders and bullets you can empirically TEST for what affects what.

Like I have.

Or, have guessers explain it to you, and then you can go "straighten cases" and spend lots of time and money on "concentricity" and such, spend your moneys however you want..... Or you can listen to someone who's actually SPENT tens of thousands of dollars on junk guesses. Someone who actually takes these guesses and tries them out....... and believe me a lot of the guesses I've spent money on are from Bench Rest Hall Of Fame builders and shooters. Being a BR shooter doesn't make anyone an expert on building stuff. There's no substitute for SPENDING THE MONEY. Somehow, spending thousands of dollars chasing people's pipe-guesses really brands the results into one's memory. Ask me sometime about the dollars I've spent trying to "contain caseheads" against expansion, the foolish garbage I've bought into attempting to "eliminate the click" until I just went out and did it. Or about buying into the theory that "sizing only half of the neck aids linearity". Or the theory that "cases blow out in the top side so indexing will help to"....blahh blahh blahhh... Ask about the numerous "case straighteners" I own...

But you'd better have a lot of time.

I've made cases and fitments so clean that you couldn't find runout anywhere and the guns shot like dung. And conversely, I now have rifles where you can just throw loads at them and they shoot like crazy.



I went out and bought a lathe because it was cheaper than paying for other people's guesses.

So please, some of you qualified guys explain for the op just how the body of the case "holds the bullet in alignment?" during the firing cycle....I can tell you how it DOESN'T, and if you want verification from a rocket scientist ask Harold Vaughn.

I have.

al

Boyd Allen
03-22-2014, 09:33 PM
Al,
let me make one correction. Neither you nor I shoot as well as the fellows that have abandoned fitted necks for greater clearance that requires necks to be sized. I understand that for the 6PPC, that some of the best shooters are using closer to .003 than .002 for clearance. I am sure that this was just an unintentional oversight on your part, and that you really meant to extoll the virtue of tight neck chambers with controlled clearance, using turned necks.

As others have mentioned, for this shooter's situation, the first thing that is needed is a set of flags, and, if I may be so bold, encouragement to load at the range, because the load that shoots very well on one day, may require adjustment to do as well on another. I think that the sensible thing is to work on the areas that are most obvious first, and leave the finer points till after those are taken care of. To me that rifle, and the shooter show great potential. There is nothing wrong with the bullets that he is working with. Having a way to see how straight ammo is is a good way to gauge the quality of ones process, and equipment. Without it, one can be limited by something that one has no way to see.

Joe Salt
03-22-2014, 10:42 PM
Al Boyd has a point about neck clearance, I have been playing with .003 clearance with a .336 neck and have found for one I get better extraction can you tell me ,Am I doing the right thing? Everything seems to seal at the neck, no blow by on the shoulder. And another thing when the barrel had a .338 neck it wanted to shoot best at .125 off the lands and just touching with the .336 is it because maybe different in lead or throat. .338 lead-.137 .336 lead-226 But I know guys that haven't got to do anything special with their loads and shoot like crazy!
Throat.123 throat-.212

Joe Salt

Wilbur
03-23-2014, 01:38 AM
Everybody thinks they are doing the best they can do. Whatever works for them at any time will remain in their process...likely forever. Even if it doesn't work for a barrel or two it very often doesn't hurt. We have to watch for the things that work in a specific barrel and don't work well in other barrels. Said differently, what has always worked may not work now and we have to try that stuff that didn't work before. In any case, the barrel will be worn out sooner than later and we have to start over.

Some barrels are just better than others. Some rifles are just better than others. Some folks have more money than others.

alinwa
03-23-2014, 12:03 PM
OK Boyd, Joe and others.....2 things. First of all try more than .003 sometime, like factory chambers etc. This IS why the founders of BR turned necks, to make the old Sako brass round, to keep the bullets straight in the bore. It's all been recorded. Nowadays we just do a lot of stuff "like it's always been done" considering .003 total clearance to be "loose" but it ain't. In fact there are people trying it all the time, general concensus is that groups start to open up as you pass .003 total (.0015/side)...And secondly, the bullet IS cocked over by however much the neck allows. It has no choice BUT to be. This isn't arguable. There are various ways to fix this, to straighten the bullets out. The two most common being long and tightly fitted freebore and long and parallel bullets, bullets with long bearing surface.

My point is simply that all the "straightness" in the world as applied to the cartridge case, does nothing to keep the bullet straight when you've a sloppy neck.

Cartridge fit does have a big effect on vibration, another leading cause of dispersion.

As far as better extraction and neck size. interesting.... I can't imagine any relationship between the two and certainly haven't experienced it :) And I have 30cal chamberings with necks almost an inch long. I've a 50cal project where the entire case is parallell and the neck is over an inch long. I've never found any extraction drag.

al

ColColt
03-23-2014, 12:09 PM
Speaking of cartridge straightness, I looked at a Hornady Concentricity Gauge that looks to be just the ticket for checking and even correcting any run out. The one question in my mind about it was what are you really doing to the neck when you use the screw to push the bullet if you want to straighten things up. Mind you, you're only talking about maybe a couple thousandths.I don't know about that but, it looks like a good tool.

Boyd Allen
03-23-2014, 12:52 PM
I think that the best use for concentricity gauges is to diagnose equipment problems, with an eye toward modifying, replacing, or changing how you use equipment. I think that the Hornady misses the boat in one significant way. It supports the back of the case off of the rim, and after firing, particularly in a factory chamber, the body of the is most likely not going to be concentric with the rim. If you want to straighten, and I am not saying that you should, IMO the H&H gauge (search on accurateshooter.com) is a much better choice. For looking at cases and loaded ammo, the Sinclair works pretty well.

Dick Grosbier
03-23-2014, 01:18 PM
About 30 years ago I went through a phase of measuring the bullet runout of all my loaded rounds on a V-Block with a thousandth reading dial indicator very near the tip. I rolled all my ammunition and segregated it in the box by runout . I shot .001", .002" , and if needed .003" rounds on the record target and all the higher runout shells were shot on the sighter. I did this for about 1/2 a shooting season and it proved only one thing to me beyond a shadow of doubt. High runout rounds shoot fantastic as sighters !

Uthink Uknow
03-23-2014, 01:18 PM
Given that you have a straight chamber, including the neck area, 60,000+psi of pressure will make it all straight. Again, given that your die and your seater die are straight, I see no reason to use a concentricity gauge. Your dies will keep you on the straight and narrow. See if you can borrow one or have a seasoned BR shooter help you in checking that stuff. I have one here gathering dust. I have a very capable BR smith and when I go there I take stuff over there to check it. I see no reason to straighten anything out after the first couple firings. I think I saw that you are in eastern Tennessee and there are a bunch there. There is no need to over think this stuff. Look for a tutor in your area. There are lurk ears on this sight who may have already seen your plight.

ColColt
03-23-2014, 01:29 PM
That was a good read about the H&H gauge and the comments seemed to be quite varied and controversial.

I can only assume that my sizing die(Redding Bushing Die) and seater die(Forster BR Seater) are straight. I don't know of any BR shooters around here although I'm sure there are. There are no BR matches that I know of at the Oak Ridge range. I'd go to them if they did. All I know they have are muzzle loading competition, CMP competition and the like.

Greyfox
03-23-2014, 01:44 PM
That was a good read about the H&H gauge and the comments seemed to be quite varied and controversial.

I can only assume that my sizing die(Redding Bushing Die) and seater die(Forster BR Seater) are straight. I don't know of any BR shooters around here although I'm sure there are. There are no BR matches that I know of at the Oak Ridge range. I'd go to them if they did. All I know they have are muzzle loading competition, CMP competition and the like.

Few of us who compete in any kind of benchrest have ranges ta our back door (unless we have our own personal, private range). If you are near Oak Ridge you are within two hours of monthly matches at Jonesville VA, Somerset KY and Gallatin TN. You would be welcome at all.

Rick

Boyd Allen
03-23-2014, 01:55 PM
My remarks were not to say that you should go right out and get one, more that if you decide to, I wouldn't choose the one that you mentioned.

Joe Salt
03-23-2014, 01:57 PM
Colcolt save your money, I tried one and sent it back to many plastic parts. Dick if your concentricity reads the same on all your rounds, then you have done the best your equipment will allow. All I look for is the gage moves the same place each time. Those are my record rounds! Al I know .003 is nothing, but for some reason, that was all I have changed and the lift on the bolt seems a lot smoother! I Will let you know if accuracy falls off this May when or matches start. Boyd your right keep buying more tools and dies till you get the right ones that work. A good Gunsmith can remedy that. And Wilbur I'm always trying something new, if your not you don't learn a damn thing!

Joe Salt

Boyd Allen
03-23-2014, 04:01 PM
Joe,
I don't know where you got the impression that I have operated that way but let me assure you that the main reason that I have gotten new stuff has been as a result of some writing assignments that I have taken on and completed. I have always believed that if one is curious, and has the resources, that it is better to have ways to measure things rather than guess. Also, I have found that there can be some difference in the results that one gets depending on some of the things that are measurable with the right tools. some cases come out of perfectly good sizing setups straighter than others, and I have seen where different seaters give different qualities of results. None of this can be seen by holding loaded rounds up and gazing at them.

Joe Salt
03-23-2014, 05:22 PM
Boyd hope you don't think I'm saying something bad, I'm not, I love buying stuff to measure with. You probably wrote about things I've got. We all buy things that sit and collect dust at some point in or shooting corer. So I'm just laughing about everyone looking for the magic BULLET!


Joe Salt

John Kielly
03-23-2014, 05:55 PM
Amen! That masked man with the native American sidekick sure has a lot to answer for.

rodauto
03-27-2014, 10:18 AM
My comment is not related to neck clearance but that was one of the things I tried.... along with every other thing I could think of to get my old Sako 6mm ppc to shoot better. Finally started loading the rounds to the same lenth as the Factory Sako rounds, ended up .040 off the lands and my accuracy came back, same thing happened for my buddy. Sako seems to like the jump for some reason, turning the cases had no effect likely though because these cases were already pretty good?


Rodney