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Lou Murdica
02-22-2014, 12:42 PM
This machine has been around a long time now.
For those who have one , what do you think it is measuring .
And why do you think this.
Because you were told , or you read some were .
Or has anyone ever had a electrical engineer look at it.
We do know it is measuring some thing.

jim1K
02-22-2014, 12:57 PM
Lou, I tried to PM you but your box is full, but they measure uniformity around the jacket and deviations in jacket thickness from one bullet to the next or lot to lot. 4 divisions is a .001…… jim

Lou Murdica
02-22-2014, 03:46 PM
Lou, I tried to PM you but your box is full, but they measure uniformity around the jacket and deviations in jacket thickness from one bullet to the next or lot to lot. 4 divisions is a .001…… jim

That's one thought . What proff do you have for this theory

jim1K
02-22-2014, 04:47 PM
Lou, I didn't want to get on here with this stuff,but the transducer is what they use to check nuclear tubing at Westinghouse and you even have to run the standard the same time period. Not theory, a 30 year practice…..jim

alinwa
02-22-2014, 05:15 PM
Jim,

What do you mean "don't want to get into it here?" This question has been asked off and on through the years and you are the first person I know of who's offered ANY indication of knowing what's going on......and what do you mean by "run the standard the time period?"

I think you're also saying that on any given jacket 4 divisions on the wiggly dial equals a thou of thickness???

al

jim1K
02-22-2014, 05:28 PM
Once you put a bullet and set it at middle 25,you start to run them jacket uniformity will be the way the pointer moves back and forth. Now you put the next one and instead of moving around the 25 it jumps up to 30 and the pointer moves the same amount but at 30. the uniformity is as good but the jacket is thicker the amount of divisions. every 1/2 hour you are to run the master bullet as a standard and re adjust if necessary. These are just examples, and i hope you get the picture. It must be warmed up with the bullet in place or you are making junk out of it……jim

Lou Murdica
02-22-2014, 06:51 PM
If you put a solid piece of carbide it does the same.
if you put any metal on it, it's does the same .
i know it shows something .

jim1K
02-22-2014, 07:10 PM
Lou, i never did that but i did do different lots of Berger 105 hybrids and the ones that showed a thicker jacket were lighter than the ones withe thinner jacket. All i can tell you is check with westinghouse and see why they use the transducer to measure the thickness of of nuclear fuel tubes? They spin the tubes over it for the wall thickness and voids and it has a graph that records all the readings. …….jim

Lou Murdica
02-22-2014, 09:00 PM
I not saying they don't . And I'm sure westinghouse equipment is a lot better than ours.
I'm not saying what it does I'm asking has anybody ever had the unit evaluated for what it really reads.
I've had mine for longer than I can remember . I would never sell it. I have had a couple of people look at it
That have nothing to do with shooting, but are involved in electronics. They both said no to what we believe it does. They both said it can not distinguish between the lead and the copper. But we're not sure.
Try a delltonic pin on one side then put the other side on . They show a different readings on mine.

alinwa
02-22-2014, 09:11 PM
I bought one within a yr of when they came out..... I've put everything from bullets to zebras on it. I've got boxes of "try bullets" and "index bullets" and "weird reading bullets" and can state with fair confidence that the dern thing repeats...... but repeats WHAT is, and has always been, my question.

Now I'ma' go section some cases....a thou huhh....

Heck, I can measure a thou with a tape measure, don't hardly need to section them!

al

jim1K
02-23-2014, 07:58 AM
Lou, There is no reason to go on if you already made up your mind, but if you put a solid rod on there how can it measure thickness? My first one was a 1988 with the small meter… jim

Lou Murdica
02-23-2014, 10:57 AM
Jim my mind is not made up. I believe in this unit .i want some one to explain how it does what we think.
Do you understand this unit to we're you could build it with out coping it. I know there was a guy back east
That built some. Did he just copy it or did he have a understanding of what it takes to do these.
When it measures density for thickness how does it separate readings in the lead from the copper.
Let's say we are measuring the thickness of the jacket. If we spin the jacket before we make the bullet
And then after we make it. Will it be the same thickness or does the bullet making change the thickness of the jacket. If so is it when we core seat or point.

jim1K
02-23-2014, 11:58 AM
Lou, I have one of the new ones,The story i get is they did up grade the components. The only problem or should i say fallacy is it doesn't move along the bearing surface of the bullet. I think you need a read along the entire surface, but all you are trying to see is the uniformity of the jacket at that point. I did cases and it works well there also. Proof ? is on the target and records, it helps eliminate flyers,my groups are getting smaller and more consistent 2" is last year and i'm to the point of barrel quality is needed to get smaller …… jim

Gary Ocock
02-23-2014, 01:32 PM
Lou and Jim

It does NOT measure the thickness uniformity of jackets either made into bullets or raw. Like you, Lou a customer of mine gave me one to test. I spun everything I could get on the machine and gained no understanding of what it was doing. I had 2 separate lots of jackets and tested both the raw jacket and the finished bullets. I don't remember the exact results but the jackets were a very good lot from J-4 and a very bad lot from another manufacture. The good measured nearly perfect (.0001-) as good as you could work/use a ball mike and the other lot were .001+ variation, which in BR is horrible. When the bullets were made, the bad lot spun better then the good. The bad lot (ball miked) shot OK for a varmint gun and the good lot (J-4) shot good for competition. A friend of mine who sold Ultrasonic equipment used the machine and couldn't determine what it was doing either. In many hobbies there are products that are supposed to do something to improve whatever it is your hobbies is. I recently got into audio; it is my belief that audio cables for the most part are one of those products that are often referred to as snake oil. Perhaps the juenke machine is one of the snake oil products. Now remember I said PERHAPS. As is with most hobbies if the user thinks it improves whatever they are doing then often it does. Just like with us benchrest shooters; the first great agg we shot with a given product it becomes our standard.

My best guess on the juenke machine is it could be measuring the material make-up. Bullet jackets like most everything is make up of different materials or whatever. Jackets are a gilding metal made up copper and something else. When the material is molten hot and then rolled into sheets, maybe the copper didn't mix all that well and thus you have more copper in certain parts of the jacket. Granted this is probably very small. Maybe the machine is looking at this make up??? Howver, all this being said when you call the manufacture of the machine and he refuses to explain what the machine does; wa-la snake oil. Someone call Vern and see if he'll explain his machine!!!

Again I say if you think it helps then by all means use it. Once, we as competitive shooters have what is considered the best made often what seperates the top of our sport is the mental aspect of the competition.

Gary Ocock

jim1K
02-23-2014, 03:31 PM
I guess i'll just sell them, if they don't work…… Gary you better call westinghouse and tell them they are not getting a correct measurement on there tubing because you said it doesn't work. They have 6000 engineers that don't know what they are doing……… jim

Lou Murdica
02-23-2014, 05:15 PM
Jim I don't think we Westinghouse is using a Vern . Maybe they are not using it with lead in their tubes ether. That's why I would like someone that knows the technology come explain the Vern .
This Vern is not black and white. So that's why I question things when I don't understand it.

rooshooter
02-24-2014, 05:53 AM
I have no idea how it works, but found the following interesting.
A friend had a very accurate F Class 6BR which all of a sudden started to shot gun, same load, same bullet lots, primers etc, played around with loads for ages, then I Juenked his bullets and found they were shocking, 20-35 or more deviations. I saw they were very pointed, much more force in the meplat pointer than mine with the same pills. We deduced he had used too much force when pointing bullets so he tried some of the bullets he had not pointed and were around 3-8 deviations and it started to shoot great again.
Had over pointing separated the jackets from the core and this is what the Juenke read?

jim1K
02-24-2014, 07:17 AM
No, westinghouse uses the the same technology with the transducer that measures the difference from a standard diameter (thickness)over the length of the tube. The Juenke measures difference of the standard (Bullet), People think it gives you a measurement in .001 but i think that is a not completely true,it measures the difference. It will show uniformity around a given diameter but it doesn't move. Now use the same bullet from one lot and check it against a new lot of the same to see if you have changed much some it does a lot. You can see voids,after i trim and point is when i use it to see if i caused any core separation. You want proof ? you prove it doesn't work…… you prove what makes a hummer barrel shoot through the wind ….. I do know one thing if warmed it up without a bullet in it you made junk. and just the same procedure as westinghouse you have to run the standard every 1/2 hour, strange right ……… jim

Gary Ocock
02-24-2014, 10:53 AM
I guess i'll just sell them, if they don't work…… Gary you better call westinghouse and tell them they are not getting a correct measurement on there tubing because you said it doesn't work. They have 6000 engineers that don't know what they are doing……… jim

Jim, sell them if you want and while your at it You call Westinghouse. I never said anything about Westinghouseand their work; while your on the phone with the 6000 engineers invite them to bring their technology and shoot short range benchrest with us; we can use some additional shooters at the matches. My post is in reference to my experience with the Juenke machine and bullet quality. I omitted that my experience is with custom manufactured 6mm bullets, used only in short range Benchrest.

Gary

jim1K
02-24-2014, 12:25 PM
Gary, You think you should get a back and white measurement and why it works. What i said is the engineering department uses the same transducer but a larger scale. I do know some of the people that work there and the similarities of the Juenke to what they do. I do know about making short range bullets also, my friend makes or made a lot of record setting ones. I am no engineer and can't give the exact terms you seek to explain how it works,but it does. You could explain to me why a hummer barrel shoots through the wind,a top gunsmith and bullet maker i think would answer that, can't………. jim

Greg Walley
02-24-2014, 01:22 PM
For what it is worth…A long time BR shooter and HOF member cooperated with me on a project by making a batch of 100 bullets; 36 were defective, and we mixed them with 64 proven excellent bullets made on the same dies and lot of jackets. The gross defects were as follows (six bullets each):

1. Scratching the ID of J4 jackets with a blunt carbide scribe before seating the cores
2. Shaving the sides of cores with a knife, then core seat them into J4 jackets
3. Poor uniformity of lube on the jacket before the final swage
4. Seated cores with insufficient pressure
5. Seated cores with too large of a punch
6. Seated cores with too small of a punch

I sent these bullets to a third party to check on the Jeunke machine, and he was unable to distinguish the good from the bad.

If there are any bullet makers here with a Jeunke machine, I would like to see them try to duplicate my experiment. Maybe others will get different results.

I think the unit measures something. Another long time BR shooter and HOF member put me on to an interesting idea some time ago that one can use the Jeunke machine to identify bullets made on the same swage die with different lots of jackets. I’ve heard that one can calibrate the Jeunke machine to zero on one lot of jackets, and with the same zero – check a different lot of jackets and obtain a different reading (+/- of the original zero). Can anybody verify this?

Greg Walley
Kelbly’s Inc.

Bart
02-24-2014, 01:26 PM
Jim

Gary O'Cock is one of the most highly respected and best Benchrest shooters of all time. Gary gave an excellent and on the mark comment to the question.

The post isn't about IF IT WORKS, but WHAT EXACTLY DOES IT MEASURE.

I've had 2 of the machines for over 20 years and found them to be of not much use for short range Benchrest.


Bart Sauter

Bart's Custom Bullets

Bart
02-24-2014, 02:03 PM
Great post Greg!

jim1K
02-24-2014, 02:17 PM
Greg, yes……..jim

alinwa
02-24-2014, 05:21 PM
........I recently got into audio; it is my belief that audio cables for the most part are one of those products that are often referred to as snake oil.

Gary Ocock

LOL!!! You just hit one of my hotbuttons..... I'm not an "audiophile" by any means but my home theater puts the movie theaters in town to shame. My kids and their friends would rather watch a movie at my house than the latest cinemagic place. Portland/Vancouver metro, not hicksville USA. My floor moves and we make the calls at the Superbowl before the ref's do...... And I do like my music..... I have friends in the construction industry that do high end theater installs, I've brought my testing gear into $200,000.00 theaters setups to compare with mine. I've referenced both audio and video against "the good stuff" and in cabling alone I saved thousands of dollars.

Google this "audio cabling" scam to see coathangers beat out hunner'dollar "cables" for bet money!

Yes, "cables" are a scam.... nor will I pay over a dollar-two-ninety nine for HDMI or optical

300ack
02-24-2014, 08:27 PM
OK this is an opinion from a long time 1000 yard shooter.

First off I only use a Jeunke machine on boattail bullets. I set the center of the boattail on the left ball on the Jeunke and run them this way. I think it tells how concentric the boattail is to the bullet body. In my opinion the boattail is the most important part of a longrange bullet. Think of it as the tail of an airplane,the tail does the steering. Checking bullets this way has eliminated flyers in my groups over the years. It will also show different lot numbers of bullets and different dies that they were made on. If you just run a match bullet flat on the Jeunke balls most all of them will run good. Maybe this is why shorter range shooters dont see any improvements with the Jeunke with flat base bullets. Also when bullets run on the boattail and show high deviaton numbers watch the tip of the bullets to see how out of round that bullet really is! For longrange shooting I think the Jeunke is an asset!

Just my 2 cents worth
Alvin

Jefferson
02-24-2014, 10:38 PM
OK this is an opinion from a long time 1000 yard shooter.

First off I only use a Jeunke machine on boattail bullets. I set the center of the boattail on the left ball on the Jeunke and run them this way. I think it tells how concentric the boattail is to the bullet body. In my opinion the boattail is the most important part of a longrange bullet. Think of it as the tail of an airplane,the tail does the steering. Checking bullets this way has eliminated flyers in my groups over the years. It will also show different lot numbers of bullets and different dies that they were made on. If you just run a match bullet flat on the Jeunke balls most all of them will run good. Maybe this is why shorter range shooters dont see any improvements with the Jeunke with flat base bullets. Also when bullets run on the boattail and show high deviaton numbers watch the tip of the bullets to see how out of round that bullet really is! For longrange shooting I think the Jeunke is an asset!

Just my 2 cents worth
Alvin

good post

Jefferson

Gary Ocock
02-24-2014, 10:53 PM
Gary, You think you should get a back and white measurement and why it works. What i said is the engineering department uses the same transducer but a larger scale. I do know some of the people that work there and the similarities of the Juenke to what they do. I do know about making short range bullets also, my friend makes or made a lot of record setting ones. I am no engineer and can't give the exact terms you seek to explain how it works,but it does. You could explain to me why a hummer barrel shoots through the wind,a top gunsmith and bullet maker i think would answer that, can't………. jim

Jim

I put in BOLD your request for explanation!

You forced my hand. I’m going let the cat out of the bag in regards to Hummer barrels and hummer bullets. All barrels shoot through the wind; some do it better than others.
Now how do we get one of those hummers? Well there is a secret society (no longer secret, as I’m letting the cat out of the bag) that meets on occasion to decide who gets those hummer barrels. This society, headed by several elite shooters and established criteria many years ago on admittance. Three steps for admittance. One, you have to spend a substantial amount of money within the BR discipline. Two, you have to embarrass yourself at least 89 times in match competition. Lastly, and this is the most difficult, you have to be able to figure a coded message within the placement of World Championship Pins on Tony Boyers hat. When Tony is wearing the pins there is a coded message, figure it out and your in. The leadership of this society is headed by Dr. Stephan Perry of the California Perry clan. This year after many days of Skyping the Society decide to send the 2 Hummer barrels available this year (from Hummer Barrel Inc.) to the first 2 shooters that order a Jimmy Johns sub and complain it wasn’t delivered fast enough. BTW those hummer barrels are mfg. by a consortium consisting of General Electric, Westinghouse and a small Co located just south of Wacco called Dead Nuts Tubes Are Us. The society also recommends that you practice shooting to achieve best results. It also doesn’t hurt if you have some Benchrest Shooting skills as well. Yea, I know, now you want to know, how to develop top flight Benchrest Shooting skills. Submit a notarized written request to Dr Perry and he’ll present it to the Society for approval. In lieu of the above buy a junkie machine and all your barrels will become Humpers or is it Hummers? Have a good one Ya'll

Gary

alinwa
02-24-2014, 10:58 PM
well it aint a thou :)

P. Octo
02-25-2014, 04:10 AM
This machine has been around a long time now.
For those who have one , what do you think it is measuring .
And why do you think this.
Because you were told , or you read some were .
Or has anyone ever had a electrical engineer look at it.
We do know it is measuring some thing.

I've had one for about 30 years and I've thought it measured the consistency, or uniformity, of the the mass of the bullets and the thickness uniformity of the cases. The deviations shown by the needle would indicate more or less resistance to the signal generated by the ICC (Internal Concentricity Comparator) which is the name I have on the instructions. I have never tested that by deliberately scratching some metal out but I aim to try on cases (Lapua .220 R).
When making a new batch of 20 cases I sort them with the ICC, just for the fun of it, before fireforming them for the 6PPC and, after 2 or 3 shootings, again before arranging them in the match box; the readings are definitely different now that the brass has been 'pummelled' and stretched by the gas pressure. I have no objective way to determine if this is indeed a factor but, as expressed in earlier posts, if it makes me feel good, what's the harm ?

Ga. Dawg
02-25-2014, 06:15 AM
My Jimmy Johns sub...runnin late on delivery!

JerrySharrett
02-25-2014, 06:29 AM
[/B]

Jim

I put in BOLD your request for explanation!

You forced my hand. I’m going let the cat out of the bag in regards to Hummer barrels and hummer bullets. All barrels shoot through the wind; some do it better than others.
Now how do we get one of those hummers? Well there is a secret society (no longer secret, as I’m letting the cat out of the bag) that meets on occasion to decide who gets those hummer barrels. This society, headed by several elite shooters and established criteria many years ago on admittance. Three steps for admittance. One, you have to spend a substantial amount of money within the BR discipline. Two, you have to embarrass yourself at least 89 times in match competition. Lastly, and this is the most difficult, you have to be able to figure a coded message within the placement of World Championship Pins on Tony Boyers hat. When Tony is wearing the pins there is a coded message, figure it out and your in. The leadership of this society is headed by Dr. Stephan Perry of the California Perry clan. This year after many days of Skyping the Society decide to send the 2 Hummer barrels available this year (from Hummer Barrel Inc.) to the first 2 shooters that order a Jimmy Johns sub and complain it wasn’t delivered fast enough. BTW those hummer barrels are mfg. by a consortium consisting of General Electric, Westinghouse and a small Co located just south of Wacco called Dead Nuts Tubes Are Us. The society also recommends that you practice shooting to achieve best results. It also doesn’t hurt if you have some Benchrest Shooting skills as well. Yea, I know, now you want to know, how to develop top flight Benchrest Shooting skills. Submit a notarized written request to Dr Perry and he’ll present it to the Society for approval. In lieu of the above buy a junkie machine and all your barrels will become Humpers or is it Hummers? Have a good one Ya'll

Gary


Gary, really?? This is the truth, you swear? And I thought all along Dr Stephen Perry was an EVANGULIST with a traveling revival tent and bus. I didn't know he was the High Priest of Barrel Humming!! That explains a lot!!

Wayne Shaw
02-25-2014, 08:23 AM
I've done the embarrassing part a couple of times!

dk hunt 14
02-25-2014, 08:46 AM
I had one really good 1000 yard shooter tell me when I had a bad flier that is was the brass that caused it. He told me he picks his brass out by the Juenke. I don't know where or how he set it up or what it did. Maybe a better thread would be to see how many of the longrange use one and how and for what they use it on. Matt

Lee Martin
02-25-2014, 09:50 AM
Anyone have video of one of these in action? I think (underscore "think") I know how they're operated. Now as for exactly what they're measure.....???

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

jfo1945
02-25-2014, 11:37 AM
Although I've never seen one, I would almost dare to bet the machine works by generating eddy currents into the sample and somehow measuring any differences in the eddy currents from different samples.

John

Wilbur
02-25-2014, 01:48 PM
I had one really good 1000 yard shooter tell me when I had a bad flier that is was the brass that caused it. He told me he picks his brass out by the Juenke. I don't know where or how he set it up or what it did. Maybe a better thread would be to see how many of the longrange use one and how and for what they use it on. Matt

Did this fellow ever have a bad flier? I know I had one at the only 1000 yd match I shot...saw it hit the ground about 10 feet (at least) away. I don't know for sure but I think it was the wind that caused that one.

I think Lou's question is a good one as it is - what does this thing measure? He doesn't seem to care but would like to know given that it measures something. He just wants to know what it measures.....

Lou Murdica
02-25-2014, 02:20 PM
vern 1 and 2 are same maker
vern 3 is a different maker.

http://youtu.be/_gCBp9Qd9yw
http://youtu.be/nUDqsqU-giQ
http://youtu.be/RE54ZfZ-rTM

hope this works

Lou Murdica
02-25-2014, 02:34 PM
pictures of unit from bottom

Lee Martin
02-25-2014, 03:30 PM
Appreciate the videos and pictures Lou. Interesting thread indeed.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Charles E
02-25-2014, 11:53 PM
Did this fellow ever have a bad flier? I know I had one at the only 1000 yd match I shot...saw it hit the ground about 10 feet (at least) away. I don't know for sure but I think it was the wind that caused that one.

I think Lou's question is a good one as it is - what does this thing measure? He doesn't seem to care but would like to know given that it measures something. He just wants to know what it measures.....

Well, Wilbur, those were my rifles. At the time you shot, I was "Juenke-ing" every bullet. And the brass would have been part of my normal set, neither new nor overly used.

I don't remember the day exactly (Do remember you drove your Cadillac, not the Caravan).

I think it as the wind -- believe I won MY relay that day ;-)

While I don't believe it was the day you shot, I remember one match where we had a strong wind that reversed. That day, we had a target come down during the sighter period, and by the time we got back to shooting, everybody's bullets moved 15 feet the other side of the target.

People go and look at ballistic tables, and note that a 10-mph wind will move a bullet a lot. With a 10-mph wind change, that'd be 52 inches (for a 187 BIB Flatbase, Doppler-measured BC of .526) at 1,000 yards, the HG you shot. My light gun at that time was a 6.5/06AI with 142 Sierras. Similar performance.

Truth is, you don't get that big a change very often. But when it does happen, particularly with a reverse, it's quite dramatic.

JerrySharrett
02-26-2014, 06:00 AM
Have you guys ever speculated, that if this infernal machine is generating an eddy current and measuring the variation of its flow, that it may be measuring the molecular density of the jacket material? Molecular density, or molar mass, is simply how porous an element or compound is. i.e. how well packed or how porous the element/material is.

For example, if you had a gallon bucket of softballs and a gallon bucket of golf balls both sets of balls being made of the same material, the bucket of golf balls would weigh more than the bucket of softballs. Why? Because there would be more air space between the softballs, hence less molar mass, or molecular density. Comprande'?

Boyd Allen
02-26-2014, 11:20 AM
Jerry,
I also thought that it might be generating and measuring eddy currents. I had the use of one for a while, some years ago. At that time, I didn't have the equipment to really test the quality of bullets that were close. I do remember that I could not find a correlation between the readings and my groups, but as I said, what I was testing with was not up to the highest standards of short range benchrest. On the eddy currents thing, if someone put a cylinder of non conductive material on the machine, ceramic or plastic perhaps, I wonder if it would generate a reading. Also, I forget, does it show a reading before you start to roll the bullet? If it does not, that might reinforce the eddy current notion.

JerrySharrett
02-26-2014, 03:09 PM
Boyd, if the device is in fact producing an electromagnetic field, where an eddy current resides-between the poles, it would be easy to take an object like a thin steel feeler gage petal and see if a magnetic field exists. Drivers, every day, that pass through intersections where traffic sensing lights are installed, pass through eddy current fields. That eddy interruption is what causes the traffic light to change. That may just be what Mr. Kuenke's machine is looking for, variations of field interruption caused by varying density of the jacket material???

R.G. Robinett
02-26-2014, 07:08 PM
For what it is worth…A long time BR shooter and HOF member cooperated with me on a project by making a batch of 100 bullets; 36 were defective, and we mixed them with 64 proven excellent bullets made on the same dies and lot of jackets. The gross defects were as follows (six bullets each):

1. Scratching the ID of J4 jackets with a blunt carbide scribe before seating the cores
2. Shaving the sides of cores with a knife, then core seat them into J4 jackets
3. Poor uniformity of lube on the jacket before the final swage
4. Seated cores with insufficient pressure
5. Seated cores with too large of a punch
6. Seated cores with too small of a punch

I sent these bullets to a third party to check on the Jeunke machine, and he was unable to distinguish the good from the bad.

If there are any bullet makers here with a Jeunke machine, I would like to see them try to duplicate my experiment. Maybe others will get different results.

I think the unit measures something. Another long time BR shooter and HOF member put me on to an interesting idea some time ago that one can use the Jeunke machine to identify bullets made on the same swage die with different lots of jackets. I’ve heard that one can calibrate the Jeunke machine to zero on one lot of jackets, and with the same zero – check a different lot of jackets and obtain a different reading (+/- of the original zero). Can anybody verify this?

Greg Walley
Kelbly’s Inc.

Greg, this is as close as I can get . . . probably not what you're looking for . . . :o

Lou's is an interesting question, and one I've always asked - ok, two questions: 1) what is measured; 2) What is the CALIBRATION standard?

A LONG time ago - too long for me to recall [all of] the details, I submitted a set of bullets, made with varying jacket-wall thicknesses, and different amounts of variation (commonly referred to as "run-out'), to several Juenke enthusiasts. The bullets were bagged, one per baggie, and labeled, "A,B,C, etc. (or, maybe 1,2,3, . . . .) - none of those people could accurately correlate (sort) "readings" to the measured wall-thickness variation. I believe I included several jackets of each incremental variation.

The "run-out" probably ranged from 0.0001" to around 0.0007", as measured ON the J4 production DATUM lines, using a Starrett dial indicator, mounted on a Niemi Engineering jacket "spinner", prior to core-seating. I have NEVER contended that the Juenke machine measures NOTHING, but I do not believe it measures wall-thickness uniformity. My opinion has always been that it measures, "geography" - but, that's just an opinion. My bullets - both BT and FB - have invariably "tested" well on this device - why, I do not know - I suspect good dies.;)

I have been on record as being, and will continue to be mistrustful of any device which has neither calibration STANDARD, nor DEFINED unit of measure: volume; length; weight, etc.:confused: However, I do believe it measures something - perhaps Jerry is , "on to something." RG

Lou Murdica
02-26-2014, 08:14 PM
Thanks Randy

I say this I only have one machine . Find me another to buy and I'll pay engineers to figure out what it does.
I'm not going to do it to mine.

JerrySharrett
02-27-2014, 04:35 PM
Lou, I've got my team of gun writers working on that project now!

I'll email you/

Ken Livengood
02-27-2014, 07:29 PM
what would a machine 1995 era, be worth at this time?

I've used it to set up bullet dies, 30 cal. i found it came in
as a use full tool for setting up the core seat die. if you got that
right then you were making good bullets. you didn't always need
tons of core seat pressure. big variation on jacket metal.
i've had jackets that were hard to make a bad bullet.
those bullets broke a bunch of Hunter and VFS records.
ken

alinwa
02-27-2014, 08:32 PM
what would a machine 1995 era, be worth at this time?

I've used it to set up bullet dies, 30 cal. i found it came in
as a use full tool for setting up the core seat die. if you got that
right then you were making good bullets. you didn't always need
tons of core seat pressure. big variation on jacket metal.
i've had jackets that were hard to make a bad bullet.
those bullets broke a bunch of Hunter and VFS records.
ken

friggin' GOLD right there.... :cool:

allenn
02-27-2014, 09:58 PM
Hey Lou, you might ask this guy..... Bulletinspector.com

Lou Murdica
02-27-2014, 10:13 PM
I play with a new one . I only want the old ones.

Ken Livengood
02-27-2014, 10:28 PM
Lou, ck your email, Let me know.
Ken

coriolis
02-28-2014, 01:32 AM
This machine has been around a long time now.
<snip>
We do know it is measuring some thing.

Based on the inductive probe head, the general description at the website selling kits, and the comment about using it to measure pipe wall thickness, it sounds as if it is measuring sheet resistance (eddy current probe). This is fairly standard in several industries.

If the material being measured is homogenous, then roughly, the sheet resistance will be an indication of how thick it is. If one was measuring a copper (very conductive) jacket over a lead (not very conductive) core, then the sheet resistance could be dominated by variations in copper thickness depending on how deep into the lead core the probe is sampling.

The same would be true for a cartridge case wall, measuring the sheet resistance of the brass over air (not conductive) with variations in case wall thickness changing the sheet resistance and the reading.

If this is true, then running a round homogenous part through the tool should result in minimal deviation since the material and sheet resistance is uniform. Putting different diameter or different material parts would likely change the initial reading requiring re-zeroing, but otherwise they would be stable.

One potential issue is the geometry of the part has to be very uniform relative to the sampling area of the sensor. If you had a perfectly uniform thickness jacket that was elliptical in cross section, you might be able to see deviations because the differences in sampled geometry would give different values.

Greg Walley's experiments I think are inline with this.

1) Varying the core doesn't have much effect because it is not being measured and very small deviations (a scratch or a small pocket) might not show up depending on how much area is being sampled. Example, an indicator probe (ball) would not register the true depth of a scratch because it's relatively large size does not allow it to interact with the scratch.

2) If all you are measuring is the thickness of the copper jacket, then you should be able to distinguish different lots (thicknesses) of jackets with a fixed calibration of the instrument.

The corollary would be that very uniform jackets that have been uniformly swaged should have very little measured deviation...

JerrySharrett
02-28-2014, 05:55 AM
What corolis writes sounds quite reasonable. If this is the result of the measurement there would need to be quite a variation in the sample(s) for a significant deviation in the dial reading. IMO, and if that is so, for where we are in benchrest jacket manufacturing this gadget is probably worthless!!

With Bart's super precision jackets coming on line we are probably way past the utility of Mr. Juenke's instrument.

Dick Grosbier
02-28-2014, 07:51 AM
The leadership of this society is headed by Dr. Stephan Perry of the California Perry clan.

Gary

Gary
Now that was just too funny !!

Lou Murdica
02-28-2014, 02:49 PM
Ken I died not get your email
Lou.caldevinc@gmail.com

allenn
02-28-2014, 08:39 PM
What happens if you spin a Barnes, machined solid copper/zinc bullet. And, what happens if you spin a bullet that has been turned upside down and heated with a torch until all the lead runs out. So you are spinning nothing but the formed jacket.

ELR Researcher
02-28-2014, 09:07 PM
Found on the web...

"What the I.C.C. unit can do for an accuracy minded shooter:

When bench-rest shooting became popular after WW ll, top shooters started testing various makes of bullets to see what was really required to be competitive in the sport. In the .22 and 6mm diameter range, it was decided that a maximum of .0003” in bullet jacket concentricity was the limit in order to shoot competitive small groups in a good bench-rest quality rifle by an experienced shooter. On the I.C.C. unit, .0003” is equal to about 15 deviation units on the meter scale as the bullet rotates. I have tested thousands of top grade custom bench-rest bullets.

The following is average data based on the average lot of bullet jackets that the custom bullet makers can buy. 80 % of the finished bullets will run 5 or less deviation units (Hummer bullets). 15% will run 5 to 10 D.U. (still good bullets). 5% could run 10 to 15 D.U. (average bullets). Anything over 15 D.U. should be used for fire forming, fouling shots, pressure testing, and chronographing. There may not be many of these, but they could cause those small fliers that we all shoot once in a while. Don’t shoot these on match day. Give them to your worst friend!

I want to seriously make a statement that no serious shooter can doubt. The better a shooter can shoot, the more valuable the I.C.C. unit becomes. At 100 or 200 yds., these people can shoot groups that average less than .250”. They do everything right. They have top quality rifles and hand-loads tuned to their rifles. They can judge wind conditions and have good rests and can hold consistently. Even a slightly bad balanced bullet can cause a .250” group to go to a .3”. This could cause a shooter to go to 5 or 10th place in the match. At 600 or 1000 yds., this can be much worse. A lot of shooters test bullet quality by shooting groups. If these groups are good, they have only tested the bullets that they have fired. A bad bullet can come along at any time and really ruin their day at a match. I guarantee my unit will tell a bad bullet from a good one. You should test every bullet that you shoot, then if you get a flier, you can look elsewhere for the cause.

I once tested 1000 custom bullets for a shooter in California. Not one bullet in the 1000 went over 4 D.U.! That bullet maker got a really good lot of jackets on that order.

Vern S. Juenke"

Don
03-01-2014, 01:58 AM
What happens if you spin a Barnes, machined solid copper/zinc bullet. And, what happens if you spin a bullet that has been turned upside down and heated with a torch until all the lead runs out. So you are spinning nothing but the formed jacket.

I spun some Nosler solid E tips, 180 gr. bt's, they all spun to less than one deviation unit over the entire bullet circumference surfaces including all the way up to the tip ogive surface, better than any of all the custom br copper/lead bullets that I have spun over the last 20 years.

I am not sure how these solid bullets are manufactured but they sure show a very uniform and consistent profile to flux field sensors.

allenn
03-01-2014, 10:00 AM
Very interesting Don. Maybe I'll have to shoot some of those Nosler and see how they do.
As to the different bullet types. I think it would be hard to draw a conclusion when comparing them until we know exactly what the Juenke machine is measuring.

Jim Bailey
03-02-2014, 02:14 PM
I'm so confused after reading all this I think I'll just sell mine!!

Wilbur
03-02-2014, 05:53 PM
"I once tested 1000 custom bullets for a shooter in California. Not one bullet in the 1000 went over 4 D.U.! That bullet maker got a really good lot of jackets on that order.
Vern S. Juenke"

Seems that tells the tale of what the machine is looking at.....or seeing. WHICH, is what I thought all along so I never bought one. Not because I didn't want one but because I knew I would never take the time to use it. Certainly, it could be seeing something else but that's what I always thought...?? What else could it be measuring?

alinwa
03-02-2014, 06:18 PM
What else could it be measuring?

Core seating and pointing setup? It's easy to wreck a good jacket :)

al

Lou Murdica
03-02-2014, 07:59 PM
Hold on Jim
I have someone that is going to tell me
Exactly what it does.
When he's done it will be worth something
Or worth nothing.

Don
03-02-2014, 10:51 PM
This machine has been around a long time now.
For those who have one , what do you think it is measuring .
And why do you think this.
Because you were told , or you read some were .
Or has anyone ever had a electrical engineer look at it.
We do know it is measuring some thing.

Hi Lou, my favorite and what I believe is the most accurate description of the Juenke machine was posted on this messageboard back in 2001 by a professional engineer and br competitor, describing the machine to consist of an;

"oscillator circuit (a sine wave generator) that has its frequency controlled by an inductor coil, the coil is located under the bullet, case or whatever is put on the machine. The coil is energized by the circuit and has a flux field around it. Any interference to that field causes a change of frequency of the oscillator. The meter reading varies with the frequency of the circuit and is actually a measurement of the current consumed by the circuit, the more the flux field variation around the coil, the more the meter moves.

The device measures changes in the flux field of the oscillators' coil. There are several ways to effect that field; the jacket thickness in the immediate area of the coil can have an effect, also; metallurgical differences in the jacket material, core density, voids, compressions, lube, etc."

Lee Martin
03-02-2014, 10:57 PM
Thanks Don. That explanation clears it up a bit. I doubt I'll ever get into one but the Juenke makes for some interesting discussion.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Wilbur
03-02-2014, 11:18 PM
Core seating and pointing setup? It's easy to wreck a good jacket :)

al

Not really that easy now that you mention it...or conversely, easy enough to sell crooked bullets. Either way I suppose. Hey! If you had one of those Verne Juenke machines, you would know whether you were making bullets good enough to shoot yourself!

Now that I think about it, you probably can sell every bullet you could possibly make...good or bad...as long as they looked good. I remember 'Muskrat' returned some one time because he measured something that wasn't just right. I gave some of the same to another fellow and he won the 4 Gun there at Charlotte that same weekend shooting them. I can tell you that the fellow brought back what was left and stated once again that he just left his bullets home. Hell fire! I was afraid to shoot my own bullets after that episode. Wish I could remember that fellow's name........gimme a minute............................................ ............ROGER AVERY...that's the fellow!

Charles - I knew it was your rifle I was shooting. I just didn't know if you wanted me to mention your name. That was a big wind I got hit with (prolly not a BIG wind) wasn't it? That I had no experience (any) shooting 1000yds prolly didn't have anything to do with it. Conversely, I shot a 1000yd match at the end of last year and hit the target every time! It was one of those things where you lay on your belly and shoot what seems like forever. I shot 10s until I found myself aching all over (all over), at which time I thought it better just to get it over with. It was Keith Gantt's rifle and as good as it gets for that purpose...or any purpose I suppose.

Now, back to the Vern Juenke deal!

GerryM
03-03-2014, 11:15 AM
Clyde Hart told me the best way to spin a bullet was down the Barrel.

JerrySharrett
03-03-2014, 02:49 PM
After borrowing a 1991 produced Juenke machine, tool, contraption or whatever it is (he refers to it as an I.C.C. unit) and reading the 6 pages of instructions that came with this one, the following link describes what probably is the operating principal. If you are interested in reading all that, have at it.

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Ultrasonics/cc_ut_index.htm

As to the details of benefit and practicality of the Juenke machine, that may take a while.

So far I have spun some 12 lots of benchrest bullets, about 20 different commercial brands/types, and 8 different commercial jackets that had not been made into bullets. All samples have has different "null" points and most all have had different Deviation Sensitivity readings. (Mr. Juenke described each line on the 0-50 gage as a Deviation Unit, each deviation unit being about 0.0003" of something in one of the sensitivity setting ranges.)

Edit-a clone of the Juenke machine is still being made for anyone interested;

http://bulletinspector.com/products.htm

Don
03-03-2014, 07:24 PM
Try a delltonic pin on one side then put the other side on . They show a different readings on mine.

Lou, per your observation I ran a set of deltronic pin gauges across my own Juenke machine and got similar results for many of the pins that I inspected, those that did show variations I noticed they contained large excentric areas between the ground ends, in the unmachined caste centers, which were probably detected by the sensor fields giving the variation meter readings.

GerryM
03-04-2014, 10:25 AM
I don't know how anyone could make crooked bullets. I guess some could if there was a need for them.
Maybe throw them on the floor and roll them around with your feet, or something, like that.
The dies we have today are simply great, and even the ones that were made well over 50 years ago.

JerrySharrett
03-04-2014, 11:14 AM
Crooked bullets? Interesting related article on another site;

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading.html

alinwa
03-04-2014, 06:58 PM
It ain't about crooked but the bulletmakers I know are anal about temp, lube, degreasing, general cleanliness to the point that I'll NEVER be tempted to make bullets. :)

Folds, voids, gaps, grease pockets, debonding......all things the Juenke _may_ be picking up on. It sure isn't anything I can measure.

I'm not even convinced it's important but IT DOES PICK UP SOMETHING

over and over and over.

I dunno nuttin' about "warmup" and stuff I just know that I can put a bullet on the spinner 10yrs later and get the same reading.

Wilbur
03-05-2014, 02:24 AM
OK, then what's the adjective I can use in place of crooked? I'll be sure to use it next time....rather than crooked.

JerrySharrett
03-05-2014, 05:59 AM
OK, then what's the adjective I can use in place of crooked? I'll be sure to use it next time....rather than crooked.

Well, lets see. If being unclothed can be naked or nekkid.

Being naked is not having any clothes on, while being nekkid is not having any clothes on and being up to something.

Having unstraight bullets can be whopperjawed, skantlin', bent over, bent around, or what else?

Just don't use crooked, it is un PC!!

(I'm still working on the Juenke thimmiger)

GerryM
03-05-2014, 07:44 AM
Keep on spinning

alinwa
03-06-2014, 01:10 AM
Crooked bullets? Interesting related article on another site;

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading.html

Wow, there are a lot of things we disagree on, me and Mr Barsness :)

LOL

al

JerrySharrett
03-06-2014, 06:00 AM
Wow, there are a lot of things we disagree on, me and Mr Barsness :)

LOL

al

He's not that far off really when you live in his world. He is coming from the Guns & Ammo/Shooting Times world where SAAMI is the norm. Commercial guns and ammunition where the SAAMI tolerances can be as much as 0.010"-0.012" between Maximum Chamber and Minimum Cartridge. In that world "crooked" does exist and straight makes a difference.

JerrySharrett
03-07-2014, 09:59 AM
I'm still spinning bullets from two popular bullet makers. Much different null points probably since one batch of bullets are on Sierra 810 jackets and the other is on J4 825 jackets. It is going to take some time to really see if this ICC sorting is worth it on high quality, hand made, benchrest bullets.

Couple of items so far that I am fairly certain of;

1) The Juenke machine is a "comparator" not a finite measuring system. To me a comparator compares sample A to sample B, nuff said.
(And, that is what the ICC purports to be, a comparator.)

2) I would have more confidence in the operating process of this machine if it operated on eddy current rather than on sonic waves. I just
think that an electronic field offers more precise control than a sound wave generator. Don't take that opinion to the bank since that is
simply how I feel comparing the two operating principals.

Millbo
03-13-2014, 06:36 PM
The machine uses ultrasound to measure the jacket thickness just as you would use ultrasound to measure the wall thickness of tubes or pipes.

A little googling turned up this site: http://www.bulletinspector.com/Basic%20Kit.htm

I guess you can buy the parts to one and build it yourself.

A friend of mine had one and I watched him use it and it does register deviations in jacket thicknesses. Being lead is denser than copper is how I guess it sees where the inner jacket is.

That's my best guess...

Mike

Andy Cross
03-13-2014, 06:54 PM
The machine uses ultrasound to measure the jacket thickness just as you would use ultrasound to measure the wall thickness of tubes or pipes.

A little googling turned up this site: http://www.bulletinspector.com/Basic%20Kit.htm

I guess you can buy the parts to one and build it yourself.

A friend of mine had one and I watched him use it and it does register deviations in jacket thicknesses. Being lead is denser than copper is how I guess it sees where the inner jacket is.

That's my best guess...

Mike

When suspected interference is an issue in test instrumentation the term shielding comes up. This process can become complex and expensive which could and often does more than double the production costs. The only way you can really tell if the device needs it is to compare the results of two such units one shielded and one not. If the un-shielded version is producing larger deviations than the other then it probably does need it.
Andy

misfire
03-14-2014, 10:28 AM
[QUOTE=Millbo;728364]The machine uses ultrasound to measure the jacket thickness just as you would use ultrasound to measure the wall thickness of tubes or pipes.

A little googling turned up this site: http://www.bulletinspector.com/Basic%20Kit.htm

I guess you can buy the parts to one and build it yourself.

A friend of mine had one and I watched him use it and it does register deviations in jacket thicknesses. Being lead is denser than copper is how I guess it sees where the inner jacket is.

That's my best guess...

This machine does not use ultrasound to measure the jacket thickness. We are guessing that what Vern intended it to do what do look for jacket flaws and or jacket uniformity or issues within the core that would affect the jacket in some way that would change the jacket to show irregularities in the jacket. As far as we can tell the machine does not check the core of the bullet. For larger calibers like this article eludes to http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading.html : one reason the machine does not read as many errors in the bullet as it does in the smaller calibers is because the way the bullets rests on the balls of Verns machine makes the bullet sit higher and further away from the sensor which would not allow the sensor to show the errors in the jacket as clearly. In this diagram: http://www.bulletinspector.com/Manuals%20&%20diagrams.htm : This shows what the sensor is. If you understand what this means then you would understand why the larger jacketed bullets do not show as many errors in the jacket as they would in the smaller caliber jacketed bullets: Being further away from the sensor the larger caliber bullets will not read as well as the smaller caliber bullets. This link has a picture in it which has a bullet in the machine and you would be able to see that if the caliber of the bullet was much larger then it would site further away from the sensor and this would not allow the sensor to be as effective. http://www.bulletdoctor.com/Manual/Operating%20Manual.pdf Reading both of these sites may give you a better idea of how this machine would help you with accuracy. (the 50 cal version) Vern did make 1 larger caliber version of his machine that I know of However the owner of the machine will not let the machine out of his sight. ( After looking at the larger caliber version we feel that we could make it: however the version we saw was a prototype and was not meant for production yet) Understanding this diagram (electric diagram with the sensor) shows that Vern's machines did not use ultra sound to test for jacket irregularities. Being a member of team that now makes these machines again we have a unique knowledge that we wish to share with the community that would give those of you in the shooting sport some more information about your Vern machine and would also give you the ability to get your machine repaired or spare parts for your machine. We suggest checking out the www.bulletdoctor.com site for fully built machines which we may no longer be making any longer due to the immense number of hours it takes to make these machines Or for www.bulletinspector.com for the bulletinspector kits.

Another lost sole looking for the magic bullet. I bet you I can miss the target more then you!

GerryM
03-14-2014, 12:55 PM
WOW such a deal only $1350 for the kit' Thats about $150 worth of radio shack parts
All assembly required.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

jim1K
03-14-2014, 02:45 PM
Radio shack is closing 1100 stores, better get the parts quick ……… jim

JerrySharrett
03-14-2014, 03:27 PM
WOW such a deal only $1350 for the kit' Thats about $150 worth of radio shack parts
All assembly required.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's kind-of what I thought too Gerry. I used to build kits much more complicated that that when I was 10 years old. What were those kits called? Anyone remember?

John Kielly
03-14-2014, 06:41 PM
That's kind-of what I thought too Gerry. I used to build kits much more complicated that that when I was 10 years old. What were those kits called? Anyone remember?
Crystal Radios? :cool:

Jerry H
03-14-2014, 06:48 PM
I used to build "Heathkits".

JerrySharrett
03-14-2014, 09:16 PM
I used to build "Heathkits".

Yhea, that's it, Heathkits! Thanks Mr Hensler. Great stuff.


Found a website www.heathkit.org

alinwa
03-15-2014, 02:37 AM
Heathkits and Estes, brands of my youth :)

JerrySharrett
03-15-2014, 06:33 AM
Heathkits and Estes, brands of my youth :)

And that was with a soldering iron, big and bulky, not the modern soldering gun of today with its small tip and temperature control trigger.

When I built an FM receiver the entire region only had one FM station and that was used mostly for semi-pro baseball games. No TV stations at the time. (1948)

David Apple
03-21-2014, 08:41 AM
In the February 1999 issue of Precision Shooting magazine, M.L. McPherson reviewed the Juenke Internal Concentricity Comparator (ICC).

"Function of the Internal Concentricity Comparator
An ultrasonic emitter is located directly under the working end of the Drive Shaft (the area between the two left-end sets of smaller balls on the Carbide Ball Plate). This device generates a stable ultrasonic field above the Carbide Ball Plate. The field energy feeds back to the emitter, which limits field strength. Any given input power level generates a specific field strength.
Any metallic test item placed in the proximity of the emitter (a bullet or case positioned on the Carbide Balls absorbs some of the ultrasonic energy. The amount of energy absorbed depends upon test item location, density, and thickness. Unless the test item is perfectly symmetrical and has perfectly concentric walls, this value varies as the test item turns on the Carbide Balls.
Any decrease in field strength results in the emitter producing more ultrasonic energy, which requires an increase in input energy. As the test item turns on the Carbide Balls the emitter continously works to maintain field strength. This results in fluctuations of emitter input energy. These variations are what the ICC ultimately measures. For the user, the ultimate result is obvious, Meter needle movement."

Hope this helps in clearing up what the ICC is actually measuring.

misfire
03-21-2014, 01:32 PM
While it is wonderful that someone wrote something about the machine not everything you read nor hear is the truth. http://www.bulletinspector.com/Pictures/Vern%20Diagram.jpg this has the diagram of the sensor for the machine in it. No where in this diagram is an ultra sound or ultra sonic device. We have a few of the machines that Vern made and from what we see no design that he had used an ultra sound or ultra sonic device in it. Just because it is written somewhere on the internet or in print does not make it true. This means you would have to see and use the bullet doctor machine or build the bullet inspector kit to see this for your self. I asked Elvis and he told me it was not an ulta sonic machine, but I decided to look at the diagram myself and after recreating the machine I found that it is not an ultra sonic device. If you build the kit you would see that for yourself too. I will tell Elvis you said hello. I hope this clears this up.

Any kind of free is good except for on the internet, where it must be true cuz somebody said so on the internet and now even in a magazine.

alinwa
03-21-2014, 07:34 PM
While it is wonderful that someone wrote something about the machine not everything you read nor hear is the truth. http://www.bulletinspector.com/Pictures/Vern%20Diagram.jpg this has the diagram of the sensor for the machine in it. No where in this diagram is an ultra sound or ultra sonic device. We have a few of the machines that Vern made and from what we see no design that he had used an ultra sound or ultra sonic device in it. Just because it is written somewhere on the internet or in print does not make it true. This means you would have to see and use the bullet doctor machine or build the bullet inspector kit to see this for your self. I asked Elvis and he told me it was not an ulta sonic machine, but I decided to look at the diagram myself and after recreating the machine I found that it is not an ultra sonic device. If you build the kit you would see that for yourself too. I will tell Elvis you said hello. I hope this clears this up.

Any kind of free is good except for on the internet, where it must be true cuz somebody said so on the internet and now even in a magazine.

DUDE!!! Are you questioning The Mic???

NOBODY questions THE MIC! He's the EF Hutton of Things Shooting Don'cha Know?

I mean, just because you BUILD them and own the rights to them, you're spittin' into the wind here!

LOL
al

David Apple
03-21-2014, 09:30 PM
While it is wonderful that someone wrote something about the machine not everything you read nor hear is the truth. http://www.bulletinspector.com/Pictures/Vern%20Diagram.jpg this has the diagram of the sensor for the machine in it. No where in this diagram is an ultra sound or ultra sonic device. We have a few of the machines that Vern made and from what we see no design that he had used an ultra sound or ultra sonic device in it. Just because it is written somewhere on the internet or in print does not make it true. This means you would have to see and use the bullet doctor machine or build the bullet inspector kit to see this for your self. I asked Elvis and he told me it was not an ulta sonic machine, but I decided to look at the diagram myself and after recreating the machine I found that it is not an ultra sonic device. If you build the kit you would see that for yourself too. I will tell Elvis you said hello. I hope this clears this up.

Any kind of free is good except for on the internet, where it must be true cuz somebody said so on the internet and now even in a magazine.

Hmmmm. Whom does one believe here???? McPherson or Misfire????

While I make no claims, I was just providing information from a published article. Perhaps you should take up your beef with McPherson.

Boyd Allen
03-21-2014, 10:34 PM
Looking at the schematic, and the pictures, I would have to GUESS that what was going on here was related to eddy currents that are produced when a conductor is moved through a magnetic field, producing a counter emf. The schematic shows two independent coils on the same core, and although I am a bit rusty on these things, I would guess that one is the source of the field and the other senses variation of the counter emf, and that the adjustment knob varies the strength of the dc to the magnet coil. In the case of measuring bullets, I think that what the machine is differences in the mass of the conductive metal that rolls through its field of view as well as any variations in distance from the coil caused by irregular shape of the outside of the bullet. No, I am not an engineer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once.

GerryM
03-22-2014, 02:52 PM
Ah Ha Holiday INN " i thought so"
Was that you making all of that noise in the next room?
actually a great post.
Easy to understand.

Lou Murdica
03-26-2014, 09:21 AM
My juenke is out to be analyzed
Now we will know everything about it soon.

Dick Grosbier
03-26-2014, 09:52 AM
Now we will know everything about it soon.
Lou
Actually I think you will know all about how it is built , what theory it operates under, and you may still not know if it can really pick bad bullets from good. Or more importantly can it find ALL the bad ones. I will grant you if it can segregate most of the bad ones it would be a great help.
Dick

r44astro
03-26-2014, 05:40 PM
Looking at the schematic, and the pictures, I would have to GUESS that what was going on here was related to eddy currents that are produced when a conductor is moved through a magnetic field, producing a counter emf. The schematic shows two independent coils on the same core, and although I am a bit rusty on these things, I would guess that one is the source of the field and the other senses variation of the counter emf, and that the adjustment knob varies the strength of the dc to the magnet coil. In the case of measuring bullets, I think that what the machine is differences in the mass of the conductive metal that rolls through its field of view as well as any variations in distance from the coil caused by irregular shape of the outside of the bullet. No, I am not an engineer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once.
What frequency range does it operate. I suppose someone could use Spice or figure by hand.

Normmatzen
03-28-2014, 12:06 AM
And, I'm an Electronic Engineer of the analog persuasion. I have looked into the circuit of the Juenke device and it is in fact a VERY crude Eddy current system. I say crude as way better circuitry was available when Juenke built these things.
There is a audio frequency (5-20 kHz) oscillator whose L-C tuning circuit includes the inductor used as a transducer. When in close proximity of metal, the magnetic field around the inductor induces eddy currents in the metal which acts like a shorted turn of a transformer robbing energy from the oscillator dropping the amplitude of the oscillation. This reduction in amplitude is monitored by the meter and when there are no discontinuities in the external metal the meter reading is pretty stable. When there is a discontinuity either in thickness of cladding or bubble in lead core, the meter will wiggle at the rate the bullet is turned. In a perfect world, the thickness variation or bubble could be quantified be proper calibration. But just familiar non-wiggles vs unfamiliar wiggles are apparently adequate to determine reject bullets.

Anyway, I'm building my own design with more up to date circuitry. We'll see how it works.

Boyd Allen
03-28-2014, 12:24 AM
Finally, a sensible, authoritative answer. Thanks. I will be very interested in what you come up with.

JerrySharrett
03-28-2014, 06:53 AM
And, I'm an Electronic Engineer of the analog persuasion. I have looked into the circuit of the Juenke device and it is in fact a VERY crude Eddy current system. I say crude as way better circuitry was available when Juenke built these things.

There is a audio frequency (5-20 kHz) oscillator whose L-C tuning circuit........

Anyway, I'm building my own design with more up to date circuitry. We'll see how it works.



BINGO, an LC Circuit. That goes a long ways back in my ancient Heathkit/ARRL days. Thanks Normastzen.

Now, with todays digital components can you build something that is more FINITE? This thing is barely a comparator
let alone having the ability to give finite outputs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

Kind-of, sort-of (graphically, at least) http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=8016

Or generally:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0LEVxJnVjVTCWAARU1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0 ZGViNms2BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDM4NV8x?_ adv_prop=image&fr=ie8&va=eddy+current

Normmatzen
03-28-2014, 03:57 PM
Jerry,

No, I'm playing in the analog domain!
All those fancy machines you found are still based on a simple inductor sensor and an oscillator, all analog functions. What they use the digital for is the calculations and metering as it is far too easy these days to buy a 50 cent digital signal processor and program it to do all these functions.

I am using quality operational amplifiers to do all the oscillator control, rectification and active filtering that Mr. Juenke did with very simple and old circuits (probably from an old ARRL handbook!). The very high and controlled gain of the modern op-amps should give me enough stability to do a first order calibration of film thickness.
Alas! I do take the analog output and pipe it to a digital panel meter as they are now WAY cheaper than the oldies with pointers Mr. Juenke used!

Norm

alinwa
03-28-2014, 08:20 PM
Any way you look at it Vern Juenke goes on my hero list......... It's really easy to do Stairway To Heaven "better than Zep did" but the way I see it, Plant and Page are the dudes....the originators, the innovators, the AUTHORS of a fine work.......... VERN JUENKE WROTE THE SONG!!!

Bravo

al

JerrySharrett
03-28-2014, 08:34 PM
Jerry,

No, I'm playing in the analog domain!
All those fancy machines you found are still based on a simple inductor sensor and an oscillator, all analog functions. What they use the digital for is the calculations and metering as it is far too easy these days to buy a 50 cent digital signal processor and program it to do all these functions.


Alas! I do take the analog output and pipe it to a digital panel meter as they are now WAY cheaper than the oldies with pointers Mr. Juenke used!

Norm

Vern used Simpson meters....."'spensive!

Nissan_Ranger
04-04-2014, 06:50 PM
This has been a fascinating thread to read. I bought my Juenke comparator somewhere around nine or ten years ago. I would suspect it might have been close to the last of the production. I use it to separate anomalous bullets from the crowd AND group bullets by where they register baseline on the scale. Bullets that swing the needle from edge to edge are rejects. Loading them results in flyers. Not really BAD flyers, but not grouping with the rest of them. I have noted the following:

1. Some bullets are so consistent there seems to be little reason to spin them except for the odd one that might be damaged. Bergers measure 5 or less DUs 99.5 percent of the time. Lapua match bullets are even better.
A box of Bergers that was inadvertently dropped on a concrete floor had several that measured close to 10 DUs. A hummer that was thrown on the floor went up to 10 DUs.

2. Measuring Hornady Amax bullets results usually in three groups that require three distinctly different settings of the 'fine' adjustment knob. Means three distinct groups of bullets. Setting up for a max means doing 25 to 50 bullets to establish a baseline for the groups which I then label as 'left', 'center', or 'right'. A couple of 'hummers' are kept for checking calibration. The bullets are kept separated and used in their groups in turn to maintain consistency within each group.

3. Hornady SST hunting bullets have about 5 to 10 bullets per box that are 5 or less DUs. About 10 to 20 are 5 to 14 DUs The rest are 15 and over with a few that are scale to scale. The hummers give me one hole groups at a hundred. The 15 and over give me slightly larger groups with maybe one just about touching but outside the main hole. I shoot groups of five.

4. 22 size bullets under 55 grain are a bugger to measure. Once the point of measure is set, I must NOT move the adjustable piece that the bullet turns against. It is very difficult to find the same spot again even with help of the baseline bullet.

Regards

Nissan_Ranger
04-04-2014, 08:42 PM
Normatzen is right very crude and out dated.

Maybe so. But it works for me and that is all I require.

Brian Adams
04-24-2014, 04:04 PM
Lurking no longer.

Is this the same principal the Church of Scientology uses to "audit" members?

Wouldn't many bullet manufacturers be using this process for QA purposes, if it's as good as it's touted to be?

Vern and Arnold Juenke lived here in Reno, and were still running an ad in the local Yellow Pages as "Saturn Gun Works" in the 1970s. I wish now I had bothered to drop by their shop. They developed a line of wildcats called "ICL" for "Increased Case Load" but I'm probably boring the lot of you now.

James O’Hara, who holds four of the current 1000-Yard IBS agg records, uses a Juenke machine to cull and group and his bullets - but no longer weighs cases. Just sayin'.

Brian

Nissan_Ranger
04-24-2014, 09:26 PM
Wouldn't many bullet manufacturers be using this process for QA purposes, if it's as good as it's touted to be?
Brian

Vern had a list of buyers on his long defunct website by way of advertising his success. it included a number of bullet manufactorers...

alinwa
04-25-2014, 12:21 AM
Lurking no longer.

Is this the same principal the Church of Scientology uses to "audit" members?

Wouldn't many bullet manufacturers be using this process for QA purposes, if it's as good as it's touted to be?

Vern and Arnold Juenke lived here in Reno, and were still running an ad in the local Yellow Pages as "Saturn Gun Works" in the 1970s. I wish now I had bothered to drop by their shop. They developed a line of wildcats called "ICL" for "Increased Case Load" but I'm probably boring the lot of you now.

James O’Hara, who holds four of the current 1000-Yard IBS agg records, uses a Juenke machine to cull and group and his bullets - but no longer weighs cases. Just sayin'.

Brian

I have no idea what you're saying here......

??

jus' sayin'

Lou Murdica
04-25-2014, 07:32 PM
We'll I'm going to the dark side this weekend. I'm shooting a quick 22 lr match 25 bulls at 50 yd
So I decided to sort my ammo on the juenke .
It reads something and I did sort them .
So what is it reading on rim fire .
I've already chose my ammo in testing so I'll have to wait after the weekend to shoot more in testing to see if I can cut down on flyers.

JerrySharrett
04-25-2014, 07:51 PM
We'll I'm going to the dark side this weekend. I'm shooting a quick 22 lr match 25 bulls at 50 ft.
So I decided to sort my ammo on the juenke .
It reads something and I did sort them .
So what is it reading on rim fire .
I've already chose my ammo in testing so I'll have to wait after the weekend to shoot more it testing to see if I can cut down on flyers.

Seriously Lou, loaded 22 rimfire could detonate if that is an eddy current. If it is ultrasonic it might be OK but be careful.

Remember, those rf guys use 10 flags at 50 yards.

alinwa
04-25-2014, 09:15 PM
We'll I'm going to the dark side this weekend. I'm shooting a quick 22 lr match 25 bulls at 50 ft.
So I decided to sort my ammo on the juenke .
It reads something and I did sort them .
So what is it reading on rim fire .
I've already chose my ammo in testing so I'll have to wait after the weekend to shoot more it testing to see if I can cut down on flyers.

LOL!

frickin' AWESOME!

You're gonna' hate it :)
al

alinwa
04-25-2014, 09:33 PM
Seriously Lou, loaded 22 rimfire could detonate if that is an eddy current. If it is ultrasonic it might be OK but be careful.

Remember, those rf guys use 10 flags at 50 yards.

????

please elaborate?

An EDDY CURRENT? Where's the energy coming from?

Incidentally I've popped quite a few 22lr and cf rounds outside the rifle. Takes some doing....

My Bro-in-law had one go off in his jeans (never carry a 9V battery in the same pocket w/22 ammo!) My cousin had to dig a 7X57 primer out of her leg because one a' the brothers set a box on the warming oven of the wood cookstove....

But my stuff was all testing, safely, as an adult.

Well except for the ones we threw in the campfire, and the ones in the burn pile every so often....

And the ones on the exhaust manifold at the wedding...

I like to think I was, "experimental"...

Some just say "mental"

al

Jerry H
04-25-2014, 10:40 PM
50 ft or yards? Lou, welcome to the most intriguing shooting there is.:confused:

Lou Murdica
04-25-2014, 11:16 PM
50 yd sorry

JerrySharrett
04-26-2014, 07:38 AM
????

please elaborate?

An EDDY CURRENT? Where's the energy coming from?

Incidentally I've popped quite a few 22lr and cf rounds outside the rifle. Takes some doing....

My Bro-in-law had one go off in his jeans (never carry a 9V battery in the same pocket w/22 ammo!) My cousin had to dig a 7X57 primer out of her leg because one a' the brothers set a box on the warming oven of the wood cookstove....

But my stuff was all testing, safely, as an adult.

Well except for the ones we threw in the campfire, and the ones in the burn pile every so often....

And the ones on the exhaust manifold at the wedding...

I like to think I was, "experimental"...

Some just say "mental"

al

Do your own thing Al. I'm not outing a 22 rimfire on a Juenke!!

Dick Grosbier
04-26-2014, 09:10 AM
Incidentally I've popped quite a few 22lr and cf rounds outside the rifle. Takes some doing....

My Bro-in-law had one go off in his jeans (never carry a 9V battery in the same pocket w/22 ammo!) My cousin had to dig a 7X57 primer out of her leg because one a' the brothers set a box on the warming oven of the wood cookstove....



I assume you have heard of the couple of brain trust guys who after having the headlights on their old pickup go out. Discovered that a 22 RF cartridge fitted almost perfectly, perfectly that is till the current got the case very hot.

alinwa
04-26-2014, 01:08 PM
I assume you have heard of the couple of brain trust guys who after having the headlights on their old pickup go out. Discovered that a 22 RF cartridge fitted almost perfectly, perfectly that is till the current got the case very hot.

22LR as a fuze eh........ Darwin Award...... :)

alinwa
04-26-2014, 01:09 PM
Do your own thing Al. I'm not outing a 22 rimfire on a Juenke!!

OK.

I'm just asking.

Anyone else understand eddy currents? My sum total experience with them has to do with sliding AL around on magnetized surfaces! Hardly relevant :)

Boyd Allen
04-26-2014, 01:43 PM
As always, this should get you a little more familiar with the concept.
https://www.google.com/search?q=eddy+current&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

Brian Adams
04-26-2014, 01:52 PM
OK.

I'm just asking.

Anyone else understand eddy currents? My sum total experience with them has to do with sliding AL around on magnetized surfaces! Hardly relevant :)

Seriously, what makes anyone think this machine induces an electric current in the test object? Should be easy to prove either way using a $10 Chinese multimeter. Everything I've read indicates this uses ultrasound. (Do the machines come with a warning about spinning live ammo?)

I haven't kept up with RF accuracy theory (hereabouts or elsewhere) but last I knew RF flyers were thought to be caused mostly by primer variability, rim thickness variability, and headspace issues. Do people still sort RF for rim thickness? Do people sort RF ammo for weight or bullet runout (if that's even practical to do)?

PS Suppose eddy currents were induced by moving ammo in a magnetic field of a strength likely to be encountered on your bench. Such currents would be so small as to be insignificant WRT any inductance heating. How hot does a primer need to be before it discharges? Think you could readily heat RF ammo that much using magnets? Think about it..

Brian

Boyd Allen
04-26-2014, 02:30 PM
I believe that the magnetic damping systems that are built into balance reloading scales work on the principal of eddy currents. How would you hook up a multimeter to prove or disprove this? Have you looked at the published schematic of a Juenke machine? Also, for some time there has been a tool available to measure the straightness of rimfire ammo, a friend made one of his own, and found that straighter rounds shot smaller groups. I do agree that it seems unlikely that enough energy would be imparted to a rimfire round to set off its primer.

Lou Murdica
04-26-2014, 04:30 PM
The Eddy current used in the Vern is so low frequency there is no problem.

Jerry H
04-28-2014, 11:05 AM
So Lou, how was your trip to the dark side?

Lou Murdica
04-30-2014, 09:13 AM
It was darker than night.
I used some Midas ammo from about 1994
The wax was dried up to white powder so I just wiped it off.
We'll that did no work.

JerrySharrett
05-01-2014, 08:39 AM
It was darker than night.


I used some Midas ammo from about 1994




The wax was dried up to white powder so I just wiped it off.
We'll that did no work.

Midas L or Midas M? I need some Midas M for a Sporter.

Lou Murdica
05-01-2014, 01:07 PM
We stated this machine measures thickness of jackets or how the lead is connected to the Jacket and so forth.
This is a test I would like you to try. Find two bullets exactly the same maker and type just deferent lot.
Using ogive checker check the ogive to base and make sure they're different. Which happens a lot when there's a difference in lot of bullets. Spin them and look at the difference that it picks up into two bullets.
It's not picking up any kind of thickness difference,it's not picking up lead separation.
It's picking up the difference in distance from ogive to base. I say because it shows the difference of distance from sensor to bullet. What do you think. We on the same page on this.

JerrySharrett
05-01-2014, 01:40 PM
This is a test I would like you to try. Find two bullets exactly the same maker and type just deferent lot.

Using ogive checker check the ogive to base and make sure they're different. Which happens a lot when there's a difference in lot of bullets. Spin them It's picking up the difference in distance from ogive to base. I say because it shows the difference of distance from sensor bullet. What do you think. We on the same page on this.

Lou I have taken two bullets from the same die from two of the top makers, twice. They even have different null points from box to box on the Jeunke meter!!
Dunno??

Wilbur
05-01-2014, 01:58 PM
I lost track somewhere:)

What are you trying to determine?

Boyd Allen
05-01-2014, 03:38 PM
I believe that the question is what exactly does the Juenke machine measure and how does it work? One thing that was interesting to me was the post that reported that if a box of bullets were dropped on the floor, that the readings would increase significantly. So, among other possibilities, it would seem that one thing that is measured is how round bullets are. Years back, a friend who is a bullet maker, and whose bullets are still highly sought after, sent me some samples of some flat base bullets that were suitable for for my PPC. Since we had been discussing how to get the most accurate measurements of bullets, out of curiosity, I set my micrometer to where I got what felt like about the right feel of drag on the pressure ring, then to check myself, I picked up the bullet and did it again. The second time it felt looser. Thinking about it a bit, I did several checks slightly rotating the bullet, and decided that for whatever reason that it was very slightly oval. They shot just fine, and I decided that 60K+psi would probably straighten out any little difference that existed before ignition. Perhaps not all inconsistencies that can be measured will actually show up on the target.

JerrySharrett
05-01-2014, 03:39 PM
I lost track somewhere:)

What are you trying to determine?

I think that someone "knows" the Juenke gadget does something then what does it do or not do and if so how does it do or not do what ever and/or however? Comprande'.

-Markus-
05-04-2014, 07:48 AM
For me it definitely sounds like Eddie currents and if so, in my opinion, it is not easy to exactly say what it is measuring just by looking at the meter... Eddie currents is quite complex, it depends on material, thickness, cracks, contact etc. and therefor I think (without setting up complete equations) that the only thing you can say is that if the meter is changing them there are difference between the bullets, no more no les!

My 2 cents...

mks
05-05-2014, 09:05 AM
... if the meter is changing them there are difference between the bullets, no more no les!


Yes, this sums it up pretty well. Eddie current paths radiate from the source to the sink like the layers of an onion. Anything conductive in the voltage potential field affects the paths and the net current that drives the meter. Roundness, length, shape, jacket thickness, core size, voids in the core … everything. It measures everything all together, so it is not impossible with this meter alone to isolate one thing that is different between two bullets. One bullet could be oval and another have a thin spot in the jacket and they could read the same. Or you could have counter-balancing defects that cause the bullet to read as perfect.

Wilbur
05-07-2014, 02:23 AM
I think that someone "knows" the Juenke gadget does something then what does it do or not do and if so how does it do or not do what ever and/or however? Comprande'.

Amazingly...yes.

Dusty Stevens
05-07-2014, 05:33 AM
eddy currents..

Ken Livengood
05-07-2014, 09:15 PM
Just what is an eddie current? and how does it work?

alinwa
05-07-2014, 10:18 PM
This is how I was introduced to the idea :)

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo.Ce6GpTCy0AkWb7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTB2OH JuZXA4BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MgRncG9zAzI-?p=eddy+currents&vid=3a1cc84b3d26b1e4f3eaef4f7adc1ab9&l=00%3A07&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.6 08046886828442632%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dnr w-i5Ku0mI&tit=Eddy+Current+Tubes&c=0&sigr=11a3vsn60&sigt=10ifrtkr7&pstcat=arts+culture+and+entertainment&age=0&&tt=b

(sorry, I have kids and we homeschool)

JerrySharrett
05-08-2014, 06:09 AM
Just what is an eddie current? and how does it work?

http://wn.com/eddy_current

Ken Livengood
05-08-2014, 02:41 PM
I understand more than i did . But an electrical engeneer i'll never be.

I had this juenke thing here for over 20 years, only ever used it to check bullets
myself or al weaver made. either we made good bullets or never knew how to use the machine.
about 2 weeks ago, I ran some 25cal, 100gr sierra match king bullets through .
I have an extremely accurate 25-06 and i'm here to tell you i could pick out the good from the bad,
and i mean to the extrem. for normal chuck hunting or position shooting they were plenty good,
but off the bench , all of a sudden the fliers were gone and it is almost like shooting custom bullets.
out of 200, I culled out 36. they will be used for varmints.
when this thread started I was going to sell the Juenke , but think i'll hang on to it for a while.
Ken

Normmatzen
05-08-2014, 08:22 PM
Norm's back!

I'll try to explain the eddy current meter made by Juenke.

First, there is nothing wrong with the original design, just that today some of the circuit blocks can be done easier and with more consistency and accuracy.

The basic unit is an electronic oscillator running at, say, 5kHz to 20 kHz. This oscillator frequency is set by an inductor and a capacitor. The inductor is nothing but a bunch of turns of fine copper wire on a form of anything from paper to iron or ferrite. This oscillator is set for an oscillating mode where the waveform is relatively distortion free. Then, the metering system is set for the actual amplitude of oscillation.
When a bullet is put next to the end of the coil, the metal of the bullet looks like a shorted turn of wire which the inductor thinks is the secondary of a transformer and the inductor is the primary. With a shorted secondary turn (the bullet), The oscillator circuit is loaded more than usual and the circuit gain decreases lowering the amplitude of the oscillations. This lower amplitude, or the difference between no load and bullet load is what is displayed on the meter. And, when the bullet is spun, the amount of "wiggle" indicates deformities in the bullet. All things in order, the meter indication could even indicate bullet shell thickness or case neck thickness or continuity between shell and lead core, etc. That is, with very accurate set-up and very stable operating points. These items are quite difficult with the original circuit, but in some cases may be possible.

See, very simple!

Lou Murdica
05-09-2014, 11:05 AM
Oh I knew that , that what I thought to.

Normmatzen
Thank you for you explanation it was great.
What do you think about a upgrade
Kit for the ones out there now .
Would it make a big difference .

B.Larson
05-09-2014, 11:53 AM
Norm's back!

I'll try to explain the eddy current meter made by Juenke.

First, there is nothing wrong with the original design, just that today some of the circuit blocks can be done easier and with more consistency and accuracy.

The basic unit is an electronic oscillator running at, say, 5kHz to 20 kHz. This oscillator frequency is set by an inductor and a capacitor. The inductor is nothing but a bunch of turns of fine copper wire on a form of anything from paper to iron or ferrite. This oscillator is set for an oscillating mode where the waveform is relatively distortion free. Then, the metering system is set for the actual amplitude of oscillation.
When a bullet is put next to the end of the coil, the metal of the bullet looks like a shorted turn of wire which the inductor thinks is the secondary of a transformer and the inductor is the primary. With a shorted secondary turn (the bullet), The oscillator circuit is loaded more than usual and the circuit gain decreases lowering the amplitude of the oscillations. This lower amplitude, or the difference between no load and bullet load is what is displayed on the meter. And, when the bullet is spun, the amount of "wiggle" indicates deformities in the bullet. All things in order, the meter indication could even indicate bullet shell thickness or case neck thickness or continuity between shell and lead core, etc. That is, with very accurate set-up and very stable operating points. These items are quite difficult with the original circuit, but in some cases may be possible.

See, very simple!

THANK YOU NORM,it`s so nice when someone who actually knows...explains it................
bill larson

JerrySharrett
05-09-2014, 01:30 PM
Norm's back!

I'll try to explain the eddy current meter made by Juenke.

First, there is nothing wrong with the original design, just that today some of the circuit blocks can be done easier and with more consistency and accuracy.

The basic unit is an electronic oscillator running at, say, 5kHz to 20 kHz. This oscillator frequency is set by an inductor and a capacitor. The inductor is nothing but a bunch of turns of fine copper wire on a form of anything from paper to iron or ferrite. This oscillator is set for an oscillating mode where the waveform is relatively distortion free. Then, the metering system is set for the actual amplitude of oscillation.
When a bullet is put next to the end of the coil, the metal of the bullet looks like a shorted turn of wire which the inductor thinks is the secondary of a transformer and the inductor is the primary. With a shorted secondary turn (the bullet), The oscillator circuit is loaded more than usual and the circuit gain decreases lowering the amplitude of the oscillations. This lower amplitude, or the difference between no load and bullet load is what is displayed on the meter. And, when the bullet is spun, the amount of "wiggle" indicates deformities in the bullet. All things in order, the meter indication could even indicate bullet shell thickness or case neck thickness or continuity between shell and lead core, etc. That is, with very accurate set-up and very stable operating points. These items are quite difficult with the original circuit, but in some cases may be possible.

See, very simple!

Where in this discussion was it determined the Juenke was eddy and not ultrasound as previously believed?

I've missed something?

Lou Murdica
05-09-2014, 03:39 PM
Where in this discussion was it determined the Juenke was eddy and not ultrasound as previously believed?

I've missed something?


It's okay Jerry

At your age are allowed to miss things. That's only the beginning.

JerrySharrett
05-09-2014, 04:04 PM
It's okay Jerry

At your age are allowed to miss things. That's only the beginning.

No, Lou, I'm somewhere near the middle...middle..what's a middle??

Normmatzen
05-11-2014, 05:59 PM
Lou,

I think if I had one of the original Juenke machines, I would not mess with it! I seriously subscribe to the "If it Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It!" The electronics, even tho it is archaic to me, seems to work well, and the motor drive, which I think is un-necessary, also works. So, If I was successful at finding bad bullets and verifying good bullets with my Juenke, it would be a no-brainer. But, to build a machine to sell, I would certainly re-engineer it. In my opinion, what my version of the machine brings to the party, bear in mind I haven't even proven my design yet, is easier assembly, more stable operation and easier set-up. As well as simpler operation as I will be spinning the bullet by running my finger back and forth over a slippery V-Block stand for the bullet. The meter I will be using is a nice little digital read-out that costs a fraction of what an analog meter like the Juenke uses.
But, saying all that, the existing design could be simplified by replacing the electronics and meter by a simple PC board with a couple op-amps and a digital meter and make the costs decrease as well as reliability and stability being increased. The initial set-up would be easier too.

alinwa
05-11-2014, 07:23 PM
IMO the motor drive is important. Very important. I think a Juenke-style machine without a motor drive would be useless.

I have 5 finger drive bullet-checking machines and they all suck, I drive them with things like a pencil with a length of rubber hose over, a small slow-speed drill etc.

I'll barely touch a pool ball with my fingers, let alone a bullet. Heat, grease, inconsistent pressure, inconsistent speed, fingers in the way....... I just don't see it happening.

mks
05-11-2014, 08:44 PM
Lou,

I think if I had one of the original Juenke machines, I would not mess with it! I seriously subscribe to the "If it Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It!" The electronics, even tho it is archaic to me, seems to work well, and the motor drive, which I think is un-necessary, also works. So, If I was successful at finding bad bullets and verifying good bullets with my Juenke, it would be a no-brainer. But, to build a machine to sell, I would certainly re-engineer it. In my opinion, what my version of the machine brings to the party, bear in mind I haven't even proven my design yet, is easier assembly, more stable operation and easier set-up. As well as simpler operation as I will be spinning the bullet by running my finger back and forth over a slippery V-Block stand for the bullet. The meter I will be using is a nice little digital read-out that costs a fraction of what an analog meter like the Juenke uses.
But, saying all that, the existing design could be simplified by replacing the electronics and meter by a simple PC board with a couple op-amps and a digital meter and make the costs decrease as well as reliability and stability being increased. The initial set-up would be easier too.

Digital meters suck for visualizing peaks and valleys. Unless you are processing the data to calculate the amplitudes, an analog meter is better, IMHO. Certainly could be good to modernize everything else.

Lou Murdica
05-11-2014, 09:18 PM
That's interesting about no motor.
Vern offered one deluxe unit with motor and one without

alinwa
05-11-2014, 11:11 PM
I didn't know about the one without.

So maybe I'm making a bigger deal of it than it is.

Al

RWO
05-12-2014, 01:20 PM
Digital meters suck for visualizing peaks and valleys. Unless you are processing the data to calculate the amplitudes, an analog meter is better, IMHO. Certainly could be good to modernize everything else.

Absolutely right! A digital meter would the worst possible choice for this application.

RWO

Normmatzen
05-14-2014, 02:59 AM
Digital meters aren't any good for tuning stuff.

But, don't compare apples and oranges. My system uses high quality active filters to filter out the deviation in oscillator amplitude while the bullet is being turned and only indicates the peak to peak amplitude. And, in another mode it will indicate the steady state amplitude level with respect to un-loaded level without a bullet or case and indicate film thickness, either neck thickness or bullet sheath thickness.

Lou Murdica
05-14-2014, 09:16 AM
You said my system?
Did you make one already.

Normmatzen
05-14-2014, 06:32 PM
Yes and No. I have all the parts in hand and the active area where the bullet rides in a plastic V block and its adjusting parts as well as a pedestal for cases to measure neck thickness is prototyped and I am loading the PC board to build the first bread-board.

HFVINC
05-14-2014, 11:47 PM
I suspected a
(lot of bullets) were crooked because the bullet maker was crooked. I also drank milk along side 7 new born pigs, and I could see the wind for 6 days.
OK, then what's the adjective I can use in place of crooked? I'll be sure to use it next time....rather than crooked.

maxpower
05-31-2014, 02:14 AM
For those of you shooting 600yd and 1000yd BR, how many D.Us can you use before you start seeing group sizes increase? Either with 6mm or 7mm/30 cal bullets?

rgehrig
09-09-2014, 05:44 PM
Hi

Have been following this discussion.

I have one of the Bullet Inspector Kits and have been examining how it operates.

I have produced a professionally made version of the PCB that I will be testing very soon.

Hoping to assist Bullet Doctor and Bullet Inspector to make these easier to produce and calibrate at least as far as the electronics go.

The other purpose is to reduce manufacturing costs of the parts.

I also am looking at updating the circuitry to Op-Amps.

Normmatzen I would love to see what you have come up with.

The Oscillator runs much higher than 20KHz.

It works off Eddy Currents.

The eddy current effect from the bullet lowers the amplitude of the Oscillator (we are talking millivolts difference here. The Medium and Fine controls are used to center the meter at 25uA with a bullet stationary in the fixture. Changes in the eddy current as the bullet rotates changes the current through the meter. The original circuit is temperature sensitive and needs 10-15 minutes to stabilize.

I still don't have a full understanding of the meter driving part of the circuit. And therefore I am unable to come up with a procedure to set the two trim pots on the board. I know what they were set to on the original machine. Also not sure of the true function of the Germanium diode and how critical it is to use the one Vern used.

It is somewhat sensitive to distance from the sensor coil to the surface of the bullet. Bigger bullet more distance from the coil to the bullet jacket surface.

Having talked with a few people in the Eddy Current sensor field and told them of the frequency of the Oscillator, they tell me that it would be seeing through the copper jacket and a little bit into the core.

Variations in jacket thickness as well as voids and microscopic scratches on the outer or inner surface of the jacket will be sensed.

This one area where Eddy Current sensors are used. Detecting surface defects that are extremely small usually on plated surfaces. Usually at much higher frequencies than this device operates at as all they are interested in is from the surface to a very small depth into the material.

There is definitely room for improvement on this machine, and a better understanding of how the original works and is calibrated will lead to this. I have a call into Vern, will be interested if he responds.

My hope is to help Bullet Doctor and Bullet Inspector be able to produce a cheaper and more reliable machine, that they can definitively state what it is doing. Now cheaper is a relative thing and it may be affected by improvements to the jig where the bullet rests.

alinwa
09-10-2014, 02:58 AM
Curiouser and curiouser

alice

rgehrig
09-15-2014, 05:47 PM
Yes and No. I have all the parts in hand and the active area where the bullet rides in a plastic V block and its adjusting parts as well as a pedestal for cases to measure neck thickness is prototyped and I am loading the PC board to build the first bread-board.

Normmatzen

Would love to see what you have come up with for the electronics.

Sounds very interesting.

Let me know if you need a circuit board done for your circuit.

adamsgt
09-15-2014, 07:52 PM
Curiouser and curiouser

alice

Especially when you go to the Bullet Inspector site and read their caveats. A couple of lifetimes ago I built every piece of electronic test equipment in the Heathkit catalog including an oscilloscope. But I was just an excellent assembler. I remember a quote from a guy who loved to build electronic devices. He said, "My favorite programming language is solder". I'm sure he would love this device.

rgehrig
09-17-2014, 03:32 AM
Just got my new PCB in and built.

Did not take all that long. ( A couple of hours to get the board populated and wired into the kit and check some voltages to make sure everything was working )

Works as per the manual instructions.

I now need to get with my buddy that has an original machine and compare readings on mine and his machines with various bullets.

Attached a couple of images. Board_full_view is the original board.

BI_New_Comp is my new board with Components installed.

Went together very easily, and wired into the kit with no issues.

JerrySharrett
09-17-2014, 09:13 AM
Lou, the ball is back in your court now. When can we expect to be able to order one?

Holton??

Lou Murdica
09-19-2014, 06:56 PM
These things are done on very old technology .
The problem is you don't really know what part of the bullet that you are reading. Because it reads more than one thing on a finished bullet.
The meter could be giving you a false reading. There are things you also have to check on the bullet.
To get a better results.
This is not a 5 minute job but I have not given up. I. Need more time.

rgehrig
09-19-2014, 07:29 PM
Lou

The circuit components are older, but the theory of operation doesn't change.

The biggest weakness is the temperature sensitivity of the circuit.

Having talked again to some people involved in current Eddy Current technology, I have come to the conclusion based on their knowledge of Eddy Current Sensors that the bullet jacket thickness is what produces the most significant change in the Eddy Current.

Although it will also sense voids and scratches, people in the business have assured me that at the frequency being employed and the materials being sensed, any changes due to voids and scratches would be a magnitude smaller than the change produced by the thickness variation.

Of course to prove that, I would need some known samples to test.

Further development of up to date electronics is ongoing.

Further development of bullet positioning over the coil to get a more uniform distance from the coil to the bullet jacket surface as well as keeping the bullet centered over the coil and being still able to smoothly rotate the bullet at low speed is also ongoing. Also it has to be non-metallic and produce a fixed change in the sensor no matter the position of the bullet holder.

In the mean time the new PCB seems to working out well, will be getting with my buddy that has an original machine to compare his reading and mine with the same bullets this weekend.

alinwa
09-19-2014, 08:45 PM
What is "bullet thickness?"

rgehrig
09-19-2014, 09:33 PM
Oops.

I fixed it.

JerrySharrett
12-25-2014, 06:40 AM
Btt for rereading this Christmas morning while waiting for Santa.

He is still delivering isn't he??

Some of the posts in this thread are so funny!

Merry Christmas everyone...

Dusty Stevens
12-25-2014, 09:09 AM
What a genious. Vern should start a cult. He could get folks to "believe" way more than jim jones. He could call it juenketown.

JerrySharrett
12-25-2014, 11:02 AM
I want the koolaid concession.

Nissan_Ranger
02-11-2015, 09:30 PM
I wonder how the reconstruction is going.

I see the peanut galleries are in full swing...

Dusty Stevens
02-11-2015, 11:03 PM
Resurrected again?

JerrySharrett
02-12-2015, 06:07 AM
We put a man on the moon and we can't figure out what Vern was up to?

The Junke I was using, I separated a bunch of bullets and never did tell any difference in the high DU and the low DU's. The thing that makes me really wonder, (about what??) is that each different brand, Hott's, Barts, Connaways, Bradys, Watsons, Fowlers, Cheeks, etc, is they all had different null points???

Lou Murdica
02-12-2015, 08:32 AM
One of the reasons I dispute jacket thickness is what it reads.
I have three bullets all made on the same lot of jackets.
Meter settings aren't even close and same with results.

JerrySharrett
02-12-2015, 09:03 AM
One of the reasons I dispute jacket thickness is what it reads.
I have three bullets all made on the same lot of jackets.
Meter settings aren't even close and same with results.

Does this suggest something, like within a given lot there may be significant inconsistencies?

Maybe Vern should have called this thing a smoke grinder...we still don't know much about it do we?

Build us a CMM, Lou, with a laser so we can measure everything about a bullet from its base to its meplat. Measure to 5 or 6 decimal places. I'll bet one thing we will find out is there is great variations in the nose due to the way nose ogives are pointed up.

dbridges
03-05-2015, 10:00 PM
I've been working on developing a digital one of these for a few years now. Yeah digital sucks because you can't "visualise" but it's something that you can get used to if the unit is outputting the right information.

Here's an early prototype in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MLwajWtRY

I've got some pre-production versions with usb serial data logging connectivity and software temperature compensation. Having more fun developing it than using it :)

As for what they measure...
Depending on the frequency of the signal it's mostly just external diameter variations with a little bit of jacket thickness variation thrown in to keep people happy.

GerryM
03-07-2015, 01:16 PM
If I remember right the object was to measure jacket run out and thickness.
I can't see any use for one now with the great jackets that are being made today.
There was a lot of talk about variations in jacket thickness{wall thickness] back in the 70,s
a lot of people were spinning finished bullets and checking run out then checking run out on loaded round .
some even has tools made to straighten the loaded rounds {came full circle again}
I asked Clyde Hart about spinning bullets His quote is Best way to spin a bullet is down the barrel. LOL

Dusty Stevens
03-07-2015, 02:16 PM
Some people just have to do something. You can have 2 side by side measuring different DU then check it next week again to get a better answer if you didnt like that one

LARRY FEUSSE
03-07-2015, 02:39 PM
I have not read the whole post yet, so maybe I am repeating something.

I have noticed that the back of the bullet holder that keeps the bullet from moving forward and back rests against the outer edge of the base of the bullet and not the precise middle. Therefore, if the base is slightly angled, possibly due to a crooked punch, the reading will move, because the distance from the sensor to the bullet ogive will change.

I want to experiment with an adjustable base positioning devise that will move to either the exact center of the base, or any other point on the base. This should help me understand if a bad reading is truly a problem with jacket thickness, or just a base issue. If the point of this devise is in the exact center of the base, I can assume that the bullet is not moving back and forth in the machine, and therefore any deviation would be easier to interpret.

Bart
03-09-2015, 03:39 PM
http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o369/The6ppc/0D98A377-7240-4658-8DC8-006C0A96FE90.jpg (http://s341.photobucket.com/user/The6ppc/media/0D98A377-7240-4658-8DC8-006C0A96FE90.jpg.html)

http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o369/The6ppc/472AC414-0086-4EBD-86E1-33D2A1F770C3_1.png (http://s341.photobucket.com/user/The6ppc/media/472AC414-0086-4EBD-86E1-33D2A1F770C3_1.png.html)

Sorry Guys couldn't resist! And yes I have two Junke Machines!

JerrySharrett
03-10-2015, 06:25 AM
Cute!!

But, where do you put the culls?

.

r44astro
03-10-2015, 07:18 AM
Where did the snow go?

Bart
03-10-2015, 11:32 AM
Cute!!

But, where do you put the culls?

.

Jerry,

Here is where the culls go! Then off to recycling!

http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o369/The6ppc/A90F91FD-0060-40CB-B206-D59AF349D788.jpg (http://s341.photobucket.com/user/The6ppc/media/A90F91FD-0060-40CB-B206-D59AF349D788.jpg.html)

Dusty Stevens
03-10-2015, 12:23 PM
You should box those up in yellow boxes and sell them. Others do and seem to make lots of money judging by the wait they have

JerrySharrett
03-10-2015, 08:56 PM
Jerry,

Here is where the culls go! Then off to recycling!


Not the cull jackets. The culls that go out the window or are they all keepers by then?

Bart
03-10-2015, 09:24 PM
Not the cull jackets. The culls that go out the window or are they all keepers by then?

Jerry,

Since my range is about 75 feet from the shop, the plan is to test the lot of bullets by shooting them out the window. If they doesnt work then it's back to the drawing board.

JerrySharrett
03-10-2015, 09:33 PM
Jerry,

Since my range is about 75 feet from the shop, the plan is to test the lot of bullets by shooting them out the window. If they doesnt work then it's back to the drawing board.

OK. thanks. So you use the rail as a GO/NOGO gage?

Bart
03-11-2015, 07:04 AM
OK. thanks. So you use the rail as a GO/NOGO gage?


Jerry

The railgun and what the bullets do on the target is my go/no go gage.

JerrySharrett
03-18-2015, 08:16 PM
Just going through a December 1989 PS mag and there is an ad and photo that looks to be a Juenke machine, sold by the Accuracy Den, and it is described as "electronic wall thickness tester for selecting cases. Bullets, and jackets". "New model with motor drive-a mildstone in accuracy aid devices".

So, it was apparently designed to test wall thickness?

.

1000 yard
03-18-2015, 08:53 PM
they really do work ,and have helped many of the 1000 yard shooters I know including , myself set many records here in Montana , they are hard to find vern juenke accuracy den reno,nevada made theme

Dusty Stevens
03-18-2015, 11:23 PM
Whatever makes you feel good do it is what i say.

Lou Murdica
04-07-2015, 09:27 AM
The Juneke machine is something that's always going to be in the hands of competition shooters.
There will be thoses with and those without. The ones with will always use it ,the ones without will always doubt it. I know I will always use it . I do believe it shows some things, but I don't think it does what some people think it does. In my option I don't think its worth more than $1500.00 and some of the older designs are worth less. What a great mystery machine.

jackie schmidt
04-07-2015, 05:41 PM
Lou, I had use of one for about two years. This was back when many of us we're still shooting Jeff Fowler's bullets, right around the time Lester came upt with his double radius boat tail that shot so well.

It did show variations in bullets, but just what that variation meant was always a mystery to me. I would take bullets that checked as close to "zero" movement as you could ask for, and shoot them mixed in with bullets that were by the machine's standards awful. I never could tell the difference on the target at 100 and 200 yards.

If I remember correctly, One of the best bullets, by the machines standards, that I ever tested on it was Ed Watson's. But they shot no better, or worse than the Fowlers at 100 and 200 yards.

By the way, I rarely had Fowlers that would check better than 3-4 lines of deviation. But yhey all shot pretty darned good.

Another great bullet by the machine's standards were Armand Paglia's.

But, the very best bullets we ever checked were some 112 grn 30 caliber BIB's. On most of those, the needle would just quiver. We all know how good those puppy's shoot.
I can see where it would be of a benefit for the long range shooters. But many of the things that they strive for in that Discipline just does't seem to matter in the Point Blank Game.

Jim Foster actually owned the one I used, I gave it back after using it for a while.

GerryM
04-19-2015, 10:48 AM
I honestly can't see any reason to own one.
some people may think you need one others not .
Nice gadget , expensive , tells you nothing. You still have to pull the trigger at the right time.
I don't know why you want to check the jackets that closely. Your better off checking the bullets for marks,
Made in shipping and handling . The jackets we get today are the best that can be made, be it J4 Sierra or Pinehardt.
The really quality of the bullet comes from GREAT bullet Dies and good set up and quality control.

Lou Murdica
04-26-2015, 10:39 AM
I don't believe you're checking jacket thickness .
I believe it reads something else that is what I have found in my research.I agree the price is ridiculous.

I think you would be crazy to pay over $1600.00.

P. Octo
04-27-2015, 05:19 AM
Lou, I had use of one for about two years. This was back when many of us we're still shooting Jeff Fowler's bullets, right around the time Lester came upt with his double radius boat tail that shot so well.

It did show variations in bullets, but just what that variation meant was always a mystery to me. I would take bullets that checked as close to "zero" movement as you could ask for, and shoot them mixed in with bullets that were by the machine's standards awful. I never could tell the difference on the target at 100 and 200 yards.

If I remember correctly, One of the best bullets, by the machines standards, that I ever tested on it was Ed Watson's. But they shot no better, or worse than the Fowlers at 100 and 200 yards.

By the way, I rarely had Fowlers that would check better than 3-4 lines of deviation. But yhey all shot pretty darned good.

Another great bullet by the machine's standards were Armand Paglia's.

But, the very best bullets we ever checked were some 112 grn 30 caliber BIB's. On most of those, the needle would just quiver. We all know how good those puppy's shoot.
I can see where it would be of a benefit for the long range shooters. But many of the things that they strive for in that Discipline just does't seem to matter in the Point Blank Game.

I agree with you and Lou. Whatever it measures, the point is to have the lowest deviation possible, thus indicating the best possible homogeneity: that reassures us...
Whether it translates into measurable benefits at "point blank" ranges is another matter. I have tested the Euber FB 68gr in the Sierra jacket against the same in, I assume, J4 jackets on the Vern Juenke Machine; winner is... The Sierra jacketed ones: between quiver and 3 déviations. On target, I'd be tempted to say they shoot a little bit better but I couldn't prove it as I haven't shot enough yet to discern a tendency.
Anyroad, I like it when the needle doesn't jump all over the place.
FWIW.

Wilbur
04-28-2015, 08:11 PM
they really do work ,and have helped many of the 1000 yard shooters I know including , myself set many records here in Montana , they are hard to find vern juenke accuracy den reno,nevada made theme

Would you expand that a bit to say how it helped. I think the problem is that there are few people that know how to use it to their advantage.

Dusty Stevens
04-29-2015, 12:50 AM
Keeping somebody from shaking a chicken foot over your equipment helps a bunch. Bad juju for sure

Wilbur
05-01-2015, 09:51 AM
Keeping somebody from shaking a chicken foot over your equipment helps a bunch. Bad juju for sure

I think that's why a lot of folks load and clean inside a trailer. BUT...They just don't know how powerful things like a chicken foot really are. On the other hand, me and Bill Saxton made an attempt to thwart Ed Watson at Wilmington once upon a time. As it turned out, everything we did acted against us and we decided that we had to read up on such activities. I actually did just that and while it helped a bit, a good barrel ended up being the key. If you don't have a good barrel, you're susceptible to such things as well as some other not so tricky stuff.

JerrySharrett
05-01-2015, 02:15 PM
This Vern Juenke machine, why don't we call it an approximator since it approximately, almost, nearly tells us something to think about while we are doing the really important things like uniforming primer pockets and deburring flash holes!

Dusty Stevens
05-01-2015, 11:45 PM
I think that's why a lot of folks load and clean inside a trailer. BUT...They just don't know how powerful things like a chicken foot really are. On the other hand, me and Bill Saxton made an attempt to thwart Ed Watson at Wilmington once upon a time. As it turned out, everything we did acted against us and we decided that we had to read up on such activities. I actually did just that and while it helped a bit, a good barrel ended up being the key. If you don't have a good barrel, you're susceptible to such things as well as some other not so tricky stuff.

Pal Woods (paul wolfe) was a fan of the chicken foot. Only problem was i think he bought his at a gas station from a jar on the way- right next to those pig feet and red eggs- it was slimy and nasty. Its that damn wind- i know it is!

Wilbur
05-02-2015, 10:47 AM
"It's that damn wind - I know it is"

I actually heard Paul say that and to this very day I don't know what he meant when he said it. I do know that Paul had a couple of rifles that didn't care which way the wind was blowing but never really understood why he said that in the serious tone he used. I do know that when the wind got up beyond his rifle's capability he was toast - which wasn't often. I also know that when he pulled out that super rifle, everybody else was competing for second place.

Dusty Stevens
05-02-2015, 04:43 PM
That was a day that he had a regular barrel. He couldnt figure out what was making him shoot .750 groups and he mumbled that to himself after a full day of back of the pack. He finally figured it out and me and you heard it when he did. My other favorite was when he told you that you had morning boogers all day

Lou Murdica
05-13-2015, 07:37 PM
I did a test and thought I would share
I use the Juneke to see if I could short bullets with different base to ojive reading but same bullet.
It works well.

Dusty Stevens
05-13-2015, 11:29 PM
Thanks for all you do for the sport Lou

Lou Murdica
05-14-2015, 01:50 PM
Thanks Dusty
I have to say I'm just doing what I love to do, and hope I can keep working with Western powder and Berger bullets coming up with things that we can use.