PDA

View Full Version : Anyone shoot 222.5 ?



Jack
02-19-2014, 01:09 AM
Anyone shoot this caliber/ cartridge or have have any information about it . I recently acquired an older Shilen rifle in this caliber and would like to find out as much information as I can before I start loading for it.

Lee Martin
02-19-2014, 01:29 AM
Never built one but it's a 222 Rem Mag with the shoulder set back fifty thou. I believe it dates to the 60's and saw some use in 100/200 competition. I'm sure others can provide a better history on the round.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Bill Gammon
02-19-2014, 07:27 AM
Never built one but it's a 222 Rem Mag with the shoulder set back fifty thou. I believe it dates to the 60's and saw some use in 100/200 competition. I'm sure others can provide a better history on the round.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

I had a .222 35, and a 222 45 and all they are is a .222 with a 35 degree shoulder and a .222 with a 45 degree shoulder. I believe the .222 mag was used for the 6X47 and 6X47T. Just a word here, the new .204 is the same case, just a tad shorter.

GerryM
02-19-2014, 03:15 PM
There are two versions One by Ted Boughton and the other by Bob and Wally hart
Ted made the first version set back 222mag case They used IMR 4895 with the bullets , usually 52 to 55gr Benchrest bullet's.
I would have a chamber cast made to see just wich version you have. You can make cases out of the 222 mag {rem} brass or 204 Ruger brass .
simply set the cases back with a 222 die shorten the cases to be at lest .010 short of the chamber.
neck turn leaving at least .002 for expansion. etc then fire form with a cheap 22 bullet. After that neck sizing should be all that you have to do , along with straight line seating.
A Wilson 222 mag seater should do the trick for seating 4895 work really well but some others also work like 4198 RL 7 748

Bill Gammon
02-19-2014, 05:43 PM
H4895 I used to spread that on my cereal, best powder ever made, would not give you a small group, but would agg like no to-morrow.

Jack
02-19-2014, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the information. I think mine was made with 222 rem mag brass.I have a friend making a chamber cast so I hope to have it by the end of the week .

Does anyone know how many of those original Shilen actions were made ?This one predates the DGA.

Greyfox
02-19-2014, 10:30 PM
Just curious, are you certain that it is a Shilen action? I have a 222.7 with a Shilen barrel and a Shilen Raygun stock, but the action is a Remington 722 in a sleeve. But, you can call Shilen and they will answer your questions.

Rick

Jack
02-19-2014, 10:37 PM
The action has Shilen #164 stamped on it. The lady at Shilen said it was one of theirs but predates current records .it is not in a sleeve.

Jack
02-19-2014, 10:41 PM
Here is a pic

Bill Gammon
02-20-2014, 06:33 AM
Yep, that is the Shilen bolt shroud, I had DGA #648 (I believe), and the bolt shroud looked like that.

Jack
02-20-2014, 07:09 AM
One more

Greyfox
02-20-2014, 08:34 AM
Nice. Thanks for sharing the pics. I have a good friend who has basic load data for a 222.5 he picked up a while back. If you are interested, send me a PM and I'll see about getting it from him for you.

Rick

Jack
02-20-2014, 08:50 AM
Nice. Thanks for sharing the pics. I have a good friend who has basic load data for a 222.5 he picked up a while back. If you are interested, send me a PM and I'll see about getting it from him for you.

Rick
Your pm box is full and can't accept more messages

Jack
02-20-2014, 08:26 PM
This rifle also came with this old jacket .The leather name tag is marked Warren Page . It has a business card and a bench tag /match table tag with it .it is old and in bad shape but still very interesting

Don Nielson
02-20-2014, 11:31 PM
Coat is worth as much as the gun.

Bill Gammon
02-21-2014, 06:47 AM
Coat is worth as much as the gun.

If not more, I still have Warren's book.

Jack
02-21-2014, 07:34 AM
Yes the coat and the rifle are both supposed to have belonged to Warren Page .The Shilen action on this rifle is supposed the be the action page used when he got in the benchrest hall of fame .The price tag / hang tag on the rifle has it labeled as Warren Page Rifle.Maybe if I go to the Shilen swap meet Ed Shilen will be there and can confirm the story.I did call Shilen but they have no records of that rifle except when it left the shop but not where it went .So could be real deal or just a nice rifle I don't know .

Bill Dorsey
02-21-2014, 12:26 PM
You've got 2 pieces of Benchrest history if the stories are true.

I remember the 222.5 likes IMR 4198.

Ruger 205 brass should be a good starting place for making your cases.

Jack
02-21-2014, 03:16 PM
If true it seems like this stuff should be somewhere other my reloading room , but where I am not sure.

Mike Bryant
02-21-2014, 03:26 PM
It's Warren Page's jacket alright. There is a photo of him wearing it on the front cover of the Stoeger published paperback editon of Warren Page's book, "The Accurate Rifle". All of the patches on the jacket seem to be in the same place as in the photo. His jacket is a piece of benchrest history. There was talk at one time of having a benchrest museum, but I haven't heard anything about it in a long time.

14595

Jack
02-21-2014, 03:47 PM
Nice .Thanks

Jack
02-21-2014, 08:32 PM
That is where this stuff belongs

pngjasper
02-21-2014, 08:48 PM
That's what you've got! In The Accurate Rifle pg 62, half-way down, Warren describes his rifle, giving the serial# as 164, which dates from Dewey's SS&D's days, and it's chambered for the 2221/2. You've got a piece of history, truly.

Jack
02-21-2014, 10:11 PM
Okay that is pretty cool . I need to buy his book .

Mike Bryant
02-21-2014, 11:31 PM
Jack, check out abebooks.com. There are a couple of copies of "the Accurate Rifle" available on Abe Books.

Jack
02-22-2014, 12:32 AM
Thanks to everyone for the help and information . It is much appreciated .

Jack
02-22-2014, 10:38 PM
I found a 1st edition of The Accurate Rifle . A friend of mine has a couple of them . What luck I will post a pic when I get it .:)


Wonder if there is any way to clean that jacket without destroying it . I was thinking of taking it to the cleaners but worry they will destroy it . I would rather have it looking dirty than shredded.

Wilbur
02-23-2014, 01:10 AM
I found a 1st edition of The Accurate Rifle . A friend of mine has a couple of them . What luck I will post a pic when I get it .:)


Wonder if there is any way to clean that jacket without destroying it . I was thinking of taking it to the cleaners but worry they will destroy it . I would rather have it looking dirty than shredded.

The jacket is just fine as is.

I had a 222.5 and it shot very well...wish I had it back. I got caught up in a moment at the Super Shoot and sold it to pay for a PPC I had bought. It was on a rather nice laminated stock and shot like the hammers of hell.

Mike Bryant
02-23-2014, 02:50 PM
The jacket is just fine as is.

I had a 222.5 and it shot very well...wish I had it back. I got caught up in a moment at the Super Shoot and sold it to pay for a PPC I had bought. It was on a rather nice laminated stock and shot like the hammers of hell.

That seems a benchrester's malady. You sell an old and proven rifle to try to get the newest and greatest and wind up wishing you had the old one back.

Jack
02-23-2014, 07:09 PM
I picked up a signed copy of the book . Signed in 1973 .I kinda feel story for the guy that never got his book .Not sorry enough to give it to him though. A buddy of mine ( the same one that sold me the rifle ) said his dad had got a few of them from Page for himself and some friends and for some reason this one never got delivered to the person who it was made out .

johnkruzan
02-23-2014, 10:11 PM
Jack, First of all the Jacket and patches are "To Kill For" Cherish it. Now about the rifle and the caliber. There are several good articles about the 222.5 cartridge, in the Bench Rest Primer published by Precision Shooting in 1997. Essentially it was developed by pushing the shoulder back on 222 Rem Magnum brass about 1/10 inch then trimming to length. Mine is a tight neck requiring me to turn the brass to .008 thick. Depending on your chamber dimensions you can get some really long case neck lengths to play with, which results in a very wide range of bullet seating depths. I shoot H-4198 Powder between 22.0 grains to 22.7 grains using Rem 7 1/2 primers and Hornady 53 BTHP Match or Bart's 52 gr HP bullets. One of my initial 5 shot groups measured .047 with 22 grs of 4198; Hornady 53 gr BTHP Rem. 7 1/2 Rem 222 Mag Brass; shot off of a folding table using a 8.5X25 Leupold with a Varmint Hunter Reticle. Scared the hell out of me; and I'm still trying to duplicate it. The brass is easy to form, just takes time. I suspect any good gunsmith can take a standard 222 Rem. Mag die and shorten it 1/10th inch for resizing. I have an RCBS set of 222 Rem Dies shortened by a friend that will work very well. However, I use a Wilson Seater Die in .223 Rem to seat my bullets. I neck size with a Redding .223 Rem Competition Neck sizing die using a .244 bushing. Redding will make you a set of custom dies but they are pricey. I'll not get into forming the brass here, but if you need help with that you know how to find me; and I'll help all I'm capable of. You'll need something like a Skip Otto forming die to push the shoulder back that much; I do it in three steps.

Now about the rifle. The following information comes from Mikel Shilen (Ed's Daughter) at Shilen Rifles, phone
972-875-5318. Shilen started making the DGA action for public consumption in June of 1974 with serial number 101. Mikel has her Mothers DGA rifle which is serial # 100 in 222 Rem. My rifle is serial # 210 and left the Shilen plant, July 22, 1975 and is stocked with a fiber glass thumbhole stock painted brown with just a hint of gold metal flake. With the barreled action in the stock the only marks visible on the barrel is the caliber inscription: 222.5. When you remove the barreled action from the stock you should find some further markings on the bottom of the barrel just in front of the action. Mine is marked 6T75SM and deciphers as follows (according to Mikel Shilen phone conversation April 13, 2010) 6=June, T=Turks (employee who barreled the rifle)75=1975, SM= Select Match (grade of the barrel) Mikel said they quit making the DGA action rifles in 1991. The markings on your barrel are probably similar and the foregoing will give you an idea of how to interpret them. I read somewhere that Ed Shilen was a fighter pilot and flew an aircraft dubbed the DGA (Damn Good Airplane) and that's where he came up with DGA for his rifle (Damn Good Action)

I talked to Randy Robinette (Sp ?) who shot a 222.5 years ago and he said he felt safe shooting any load suitable for the 223 Rem in a 222.5. I tried Varget, Benchmark and 8208. My rifle didn't like them. Some day I'm going to try H335 because it was Walt Berger's go to powder in the 222 Rem; and maybe I'll get around to talking to Ed Shilen about what powder he shot in his 222.5

I notice where "The Chief Cook and Bottle Washer" chimed in and said he'd had a 222.5 and made the mistake of parting with it. Well, I have to confess I made a mistake with my Shilen DGA in 222.5. No, I didn't sell it, but I did have a Hart heavy varmint 8 Twist barrel in Tactical 20 made up for it, and I can assure you it's a Prairie Dogs nightmare.

But, all this has me stirred up to the point where I think I'll swap barrels later this week and revisit the
Shilen DGA 222.5

Thanks for bringing the subject of the 222.5 up and thanks to my friend Greyfox for bringing the thread to my attention. I've enjoyed this and I hope my ramblings are of help to you; and others. John Kruzan

Jack
02-23-2014, 11:14 PM
Thank you for all of the information . I do have this hand die that came with the rifle .also I will remove my action and see what letters are there.

alinwa
02-24-2014, 12:52 AM
This rifle also came with this old jacket .The leather name tag is marked Warren Page . It has a business card and a bench tag /match table tag with it .it is old and in bad shape but still very interesting

HOLY $#!T!

I'll give you a hunnerd bucks for that old coat........

al

Jack
02-25-2014, 12:45 AM
How much of it do you think that will get ? :p

Jack
02-26-2014, 10:31 PM
I recieved the chamber cast and measurements for my rifle .Other 222 1/2 chambers could vary from mine . This was done by a friend of mine and I have to say he did a very nice job.

cpeterson
02-28-2014, 07:30 PM
Jack,

I bought an old Hart Benchrest gun in 222.5. I got the dies, made up brass, shot the gun and had a lot of fun with it but because it had a convex shaped forend, it was a PIA to shoot and I quickly tired of shooting the gun. I took the scope off it and traded the gun (Hart #269)for a modern 6ppc gun.

With that being said, I have over 100 pieces of 222Rem mags that were formed into 222.5s if you are interested in shooting your gun. I can also provide the loads that were working for me. Please e-mail me if interested.

Chris

PS I did get a couple of .150 groups with the gun but they were the exception.

Jack
03-01-2014, 12:45 AM
Jack,

I bought an old Hart Benchrest gun in 222.5. I got the dies, made up brass, shot the gun and had a lot of fun with it but because it had a convex shaped forend, it was a PIA to shoot and I quickly tired of shooting the gun. I took the scope off it and traded the gun (Hart #269)for a modern 6ppc gun.

With that being said, I have over 100 pieces of 222Rem mags that were formed into 222.5s if you are interested in shooting your gun. I can also provide the loads that were working for me. Please e-mail me if interested.

Chris

PS I did get a couple of .150 groups with the gun but they were the exception.

Sounds like you had some good groups .

I sent a pm

GerryM
03-26-2014, 06:26 PM
I think your going to find out that the 222.5 pushed back version is the same as a 223 Remington
Case capacity etc should be very close. The real differance is the long neck on the 222.5 Vs the shorter neck on the 223.
Check it out. pretty sure i'm right n that from past reading.
If I remember correctly the 222 mag was sent in for trials by Remington for the new M16 rifle.
After initial testing The DOD decided hat a shorter case with a shorter neck would be better. the 223 is 1/10 inch shorter then the 222 mag.
The short neck being more desirable then the long neck in automatic firearms .

Jack
04-05-2014, 01:49 AM
Thanks to all who posted information about the 222.5 as well as the other information about Page and the book . The book has proved the rifle did belong to Page as well as the jacket .

I took the rifle and the jacket to the Shilen swap meet and showed it to some of the folks there and found out some useful information unfortunately Ed Shilen was not there when I was so I did not get a chance to talk to him , I really hoped I would have seen him there but maybe some other time .

As it turns out Page list a load for 222.5 in his book .

Wilbur
04-05-2014, 02:55 PM
After I sold the 222 1/2, a fellow mentioned one day that he simply fire formed 222 cases to fit. That didn't sound right but that's what he said. I actually determined that the rifle would group better across the day by making short necked cases from the 223. Strange but true...and then I foolishly sold it and rid myself of the aggravation. Foolishly/aggravation may be viewed equally as in I wish I had the rifle back but probably wouldn't fool with it anymore.

Jack
04-05-2014, 04:39 PM
We'll I can try 223 cases if I need to but I have ample supply of 222.5 cases formed from 222 mag so I hope they shoot good .

R.B. Carl
04-08-2014, 04:36 PM
I'm surprised there aren't more replies about your rifle. I'm of the opinion your action is one made before Shilen came to Texas whilst with Dewey. It looks to be an SS&D action which I believe stood for "Shooters Service and Dewey".
I have # 139. Not many years ago there was an article in Precision Shootiong by afellow(I believe in California) who found one of these rifles for sale in a store. I wrote him at the time and told him about mine and asked what his serial number was.

The only other SS&D rifle I have seen was owned by Larry Engelbrecht from Wichita and a former Pres. of the NBRSA. It was a .222 in a wood stock NOT glued in. I shot beside him at Luther, OK. and he told me he shot it one time a year for old times' sake. I was shooting mine that day also. I remember his last group at 100 was .163!

Very nice and desirable rifle.Don Rorhschach had one I have seen. I'm fairly sure it was and I THINK it also was a .222.5.
the old stuff is interesting and the jacket is priceless.

Loved your post.

R.B. Carl
OKC

Joe Krupa
04-09-2014, 10:18 AM
.. those round blue patches in the middle of the back of the jacket are NBRSA National Championship patches. Mr. Page won the following NBRSA National matches:

1960 LV 100

1961 HV100, HV Grand and Three-gun

1962 Sporter 200 and Three-gun

1963 Sporter 100

1970 HV Grand

Sir Warren has 14 US Benchrest Hall of Fame points and was inducted in 1964.

Great looking "scare jacket". Like to have one like that.

Bill Gammon
04-09-2014, 12:21 PM
I have one like that, then they see who is wearing it, and they don't get scared!!!!!!:cool:

Jack
04-10-2014, 02:49 PM
I'm surprised there aren't more replies about your rifle. I'm of the opinion your action is one made before Shilen came to Texas whilst with Dewey. It looks to be an SS&D action which I believe stood for "Shooters Service and Dewey".
I have # 139. Not many years ago there was an article in Precision Shootiong by afellow(I believe in California) who found one of these rifles for sale in a store. I wrote him at the time and told him about mine and asked what his serial number was.

The only other SS&D rifle I have seen was owned by Larry Engelbrecht from Wichita and a former Pres. of the NBRSA. It was a .222 in a wood stock NOT glued in. I shot beside him at Luther, OK. and he told me he shot it one time a year for old times' sake. I was shooting mine that day also. I remember his last group at 100 was .163!

Very nice and desirable rifle.Don Rorhschach had one I have seen. I'm fairly sure it was and I THINK it also was a .222.5.
the old stuff is interesting and the jacket is priceless.

Loved your post.

R.B. Carl
OKC



SS&D = Shilen ,Shaw , and Dewey

Ed Shilen of Shilen inc
Artie Shaw big band music /jazz songwriter band leader
John Dewey Of Dewey cleaning rods

And they where located in New York then

These guys were all fellow bench rest shooters

I had a brief conversation with a few guys at Shilen Inc when I attended the Shilen Swap meet . Was given some useful information .Unfortunately Ed Shilen was not there that day.

And thanks again to all that have posted and given useful information

Jack