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Jim Cox
01-19-2014, 06:27 PM
Hello all, first post here.

I'm in the process of putting together a 1k heavy gun in 6XC, and the purpose of this thread is getting some feedback on neck turning tools.

The three that I'm most interested in are not the commonly recommended ones, so I'm struggling to find feedback on them.

First one:

The Time Precision tool

Second:

The R.W. Hart tool

Third:

The no longer in production (as far as I'm aware at least) JACO tool


I know the Hart tool is made with a steel body, which I'm a fan of. I'm also a fan of the mic setup on it. The Time Precision tool also has a mic, but I'm not sure if it has a steel body or an aluminum one. The size of the Hart cutter gives me the impression it would produce a smoother finish, and I figure on using shim stock/feeler gauges to set cutter height. Provided it would be possible to find the JACO tool, would it produce a high level of concentricity and a smooth finish?

I'm not interested in the K&M tool, the 21st Century tool, the Pumpkin, or the Sinclair tools. I'm considering a PMA, but am most interested in the three I listed. If anyone has experience they'd like to share along with some pictures, please post away or PM me.

Thanks.

adamsgt
01-19-2014, 08:47 PM
So, you'd like info on stuff you probably won't be able to find. Good luck.

Jim Cox
01-19-2014, 08:59 PM
Both of the first two tools are regularly available and the JACO can be had. I asked for experience and input, not snide remarks.

vtmarmot
01-19-2014, 08:59 PM
I like doing things my own way too, and I like fooling with equipment as much as I do shooting. However, having been semi-serious about several shooting disciplines for a few years now I'm pretty certain of one thing - unless you're a mechanical genius with your own first-rate machine shop, you're best off to buy what the winners are using and then work like crazy to use it better than they do. If you just enjoy being different, well, carry on, but don't expect to win much.

Jim Cox
01-19-2014, 09:02 PM
I'm only in it to enjoy myself. If I had the money to put a Monarch 10EE in my garage I'd be using that, but I retired from the Army and can't afford it right now.

vtmarmot
01-19-2014, 09:02 PM
And that's meant to be a useful observation, not a snide remark. Hope you don't take it that way.

Jim Cox
01-19-2014, 09:10 PM
No worries vtmarmot, I enjoy doing things the way I see fit, and the way I see it, tolerances and clean cuts are all that matter, not how you arrive there. End results are the key, not whose product you use to get there. Cheers, and send some of that weather down this way, I'm sick of running the air conditioner in January.

jim1K
01-19-2014, 09:33 PM
Do you plan to shoot long range bench rest? If i was going to by a neck turning tool i that is reasonable it would be a K&M they aren't that expensive, and do a good job……. jim

Dave Coots
01-19-2014, 09:53 PM
I don't know much about the tools you mentioned in your first post, but I've used several neck turning tools. After I got tired of swimming upstream backwards, I started using the Pumpkin by Don Neilson. Turn them once and you are done.

Later
Dave

Greyfox
01-19-2014, 10:07 PM
No worries vtmarmot, I enjoy doing things the way I see fit, and the way I see it, tolerances and clean cuts are all that matter, not how you arrive there. End results are the key, not whose product you use to get there. Cheers, and send some of that weather down this way, I'm sick of running the air conditioner in January.

Actually, there is a little more to it including ease of operation and precision. The K&M and Pumpkin wouldn't be so widely used if they weren't better than the tools you mentioned. Most of the people who play this game learn fairly quickly what works and what doesn't. If you want to reinvent the wheel that's your business and you wouldn't be the first, but you are getting some good advice and you would do well to pay attention. But hey, it's your time and your $$, have fun.

Rick

Jim Cox
01-19-2014, 10:16 PM
I'm not trying to be combative here, but I specifically asked for input on three tools, and so far I'm getting only criticism for my curiosity. I've read several places that the JACO and Time Precision tools are excellent, and both will hold to the .0002". I've heard positives and negatives about every tool on the market, I'm asking about 3 specific tools, I appreciate the advice, but there are more ways to turn a case neck than the same tools that are currently en vogue. This is research. Thanks.

ETA, tolerances = precision. Ease of use is also subjective to the person using a tool. One person may find using a surface grinder to cut a radius on a locking lug to be simple, another may have no idea what a surface grinder is, let alone how to activate the chuck.

Wilbur
01-19-2014, 10:27 PM
They all work about the same and do the same thing. Find the cheapest one you can and start cuttin'.

Whether or not you need an even neck all around remains up for grabs. Get one and have fun while you still can. Sorry I don't have more info.

adamsgt
01-19-2014, 10:31 PM
Both of the first two tools are regularly available and the JACO can be had. I asked for experience and input, not snide remarks.

Yeah, that was a snide remark. I guess what led me that way was how you stated that K&M, 21st Century,Pumpkin and Sinclair tools weren't worthy of your consideration. Those tools have been used by many shooters who achieved stellar results. Speedy Gonzalez had a briefcase full of pumpkins and his results stand by themselves.

Jim Cox
01-19-2014, 10:31 PM
Thanks Wilbur, I enjoy the process of reloading, and specifically ordered a tight neck reamer so I could neck turn cases. Ideally I'll get all three of them, and if anyone has a JACO they're willing to part with, by all means let me know.

Jim Cox
01-19-2014, 10:35 PM
Yeah, that was a snide remark. I guess what led me that way was how you stated that K&M, 21st Century,Pumpkin and Sinclair tools weren't worthy of your consideration. Those tools have been used by many shooters who achieved stellar results. Speedy Gonzalez had a briefcase full of pumpkins and his results stand by themselves.

I never said or implied they aren't worthy of my consideration, I've considered all of them and they each have features that don't appeal to me. Someone else's results are not mine, good for them, but I'm not trying to copy recipes here. I have an aversion to aluminum tools, it's a mental thing. I just far prefer steel, and more so I like to have measured and repeatable control over adjustments, regardless of the complexity of the operation.

alinwa
01-20-2014, 01:45 AM
I have six neckturning setups, one of them is the Time Precision setup. I use it under power, driving the case rather quickly, like 150-200rpms. I've re-ground the cutters to "my grind" which means I set them up to cut into the shoulder radius to a certain angle/depth and stop cutting. I set them up this way because I've had trouble with all other forms of stop. I use this cutter just like I use all the others, letting it rest in a bowl of tapwater.

The only complaint I've had and I went straight to Art with it, is that I had trouble finding sizing mandrels to fit the turning mandrels of this pertickler tool. I bought a selection of mandrels....I've since learned that this is a ubiquitous problem unless the turners are supplied with 'spander mandrels or are sized to the Sinclair stuff.

I have no opinion on the Hart or JACO as I've only used clones.
al

Jim Cox
01-20-2014, 01:53 AM
Al,

Were a body to mic the turning mandrel and have Wilson grind a corresponding mandrel to .0005 over be a reasonable way to go to avoid that problem?

Also, is the body of the Time turner steel or aluminum? Does the cutter leave an acceptably smooth finish? These were my only real concerns with it. The idea and practice of steel and carbide cutters and mandrels mated to an aluminum body makes me uneasy.

Thank you for your reply.

dk hunt 14
01-20-2014, 07:23 AM
I had the Hart didn't like it. It would turn on a taper and was hard to adjust. Being made of steel it would hold heat a lot longer. I have the K&M and like it. The adjustments are very precise. When you turn brass you should turn it in steps and not take off too much at a time. I set up 3 cutters and do it in 3 passes. This also helps to keep the cutters cool because they have time to cool between passes. Matt

mario f
01-20-2014, 08:00 AM
I published a "system" of neck turning, is based on two steps for the thickness of the neck, but the pilots are of the same diameter expander and get to the bottom of the cartridge case. I get to .001 mm. (one micron .......) tolerance.


http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.i;);)t/2010/06/equipment-new-neck-turner-from-italy.html

Jim Cox
01-20-2014, 08:53 AM
I published a "system" of neck turning, is based on two steps for the thickness of the neck, but the pilots are of the same diameter expander and get to the bottom of the cartridge case. I get to .001 mm. (one micron .......) tolerance.


http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.i;);)t/2010/06/equipment-new-neck-turner-from-italy.html

Mario,

I just read through your article. I like the way you think. How possible is it to get the tools you use to the US? Feel free to PM or email me, james.cox.m@gmail.com

Cheers,

Jim

ETA: That is if you're offering your system for sale.

Joe Salt
01-20-2014, 09:24 AM
Jim guess I'll put in my two cents, I start the first cut with a Sinclair, and finish with a Hart, which I have use for about thirty years. If the Hart you have is like mine its heavy and with my big hands is much easier to hold. And it does an excellent job. I also use sizing wax to keep the heat down. I also finish up the cut with 0000 steel wool and polish the inside of necks.

Joe Salt

Jim Cox
01-20-2014, 10:05 AM
Jim guess I'll put in my two cents, I start the first cut with a Sinclair, and finish with a Hart, which I have use for about thirty years. If the Hart you have is like mine its heavy and with my big hands is much easier to hold. And it does an excellent job. I also use sizing wax to keep the heat down. I also finish up the cut with 0000 steel wool and polish the inside of necks.

Joe Salt

Thanks Joe, I had guessed that the large cutter of the Hart would make a nice cut, and the construction would mitigate chatter. Are you able to split the hash lines and get consistent tolerances under the advertised .001?

Jim

Joe Salt
01-20-2014, 10:38 AM
Jim I have never had a problem with my Hart or the Sinclair for that matter. But the Hart does have a nice Micrometer adjustment. And once you get it were you want it, lock it. Works for me! And if you already have these tools try them. Just don't get in a hurry setting them up.

Joe salt

Jim Cox
01-20-2014, 10:43 AM
Jim I have never had a problem with my Hart or the Sinclair for that matter. But the Hart does have a nice Micrometer adjustment. And once you get it were you want it, lock it. Works for me! And if you already have these tools try them. Just don't get in a hurry setting them up.

Joe salt

I don't have them yet, I found a JACO, and Hart still sells theirs as well as Time. I'm going to get the JACO first and then the other two. I'll put up some pictures of the JACO when I get it and start using it, there don't seem to be more than 2 on the net. I'm looking forward to spending a few hours ruining a few cases to get it set up, I've got some old .243 brass that's ripe for the mauling!

Jim

alinwa
01-20-2014, 01:33 PM
Al,

Were a body to mic the turning mandrel and have Wilson grind a corresponding mandrel to .0005 over be a reasonable way to go to avoid that problem?

Also, is the body of the Time turner steel or aluminum? Does the cutter leave an acceptably smooth finish? These were my only real concerns with it. The idea and practice of steel and carbide cutters and mandrels mated to an aluminum body makes me uneasy.

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, that's what I did.

Body of Time is AL, and quite large. I asked Art Cocchia "why so big?" and he said "because we have hands"

In answer to your concerns (and mine) I always keep the turner setting in water between turnings. I feel strongly that if it's allowed to materially change temperature during use it'll change dimensionally...... whether it's assembled from AL, steel, Titanium or unobtanium.


I obtain (require) a beautiful finish on my necks. I use carbide mandrels. I grind/sharpen/hone my own cutting edges and use engine assembly lube on the mandrel. I keep a thin film of the lube on a flat surface (lid or plate) and dip the neck to get about 1/10" of lube on the casemouth, just a little ring of lubricant.

When I'm done I walk over and blow everything dry with the airhose and put it away. I've never been troubled by rusting but I live in WA, it's not humid nor salty.

hth

al

virg
01-20-2014, 01:35 PM
Still interested in the JACO tool and if he's still available, AJ Walker still has a few. His number is 512 836 0203. He manufactured them under the TJ Jackson design. They are expensive, but for "first pass" quality they can't be beat.

virg

Jim Cox
01-20-2014, 02:10 PM
I spoke with him a little earlier today, and believe I got the last one he has Virg, thank you for the heads up!

Al, I like the way you think. Heat does affect all metals, and if they aren't kept a consistent temp it's physically impossible to get repeatable results. I will heed your advice about the water and engine assembly lube as well. Thank you for the wisdom.

Jim

mario f
01-20-2014, 07:18 PM
I think it takes a long pilot in carbide, carbide blade, 2 steps of turning (for the 1st just a NT Sinclair 1000) but the important thing is the expander FL because it lowers the shoulder to the right size by turning. I use oil for steel and 78 rps for my turnings.Allego pic del Jaco

jackie schmidt
01-22-2014, 09:53 PM
Wow, after reading all of this, and I am going to give no neck turn a try this year.

Sort of the other end of the spectrum.........jackie

Jim Cox
01-22-2014, 10:25 PM
I actually ordered a tight neck so I could turn necks. I've been loading for the past 10 years and never needed to turn necks, so I decided to give it (along with BR) a legitimate try and have some fun.

Jim

JerrySharrett
01-23-2014, 09:26 PM
I'm only in it to enjoy myself. If I had the money to put a Monarch 10EE in my garage I'd be using that, but I retired from the Army and can't afford it right now.
The Monarch 10EE is grossly overpriced, IMO, and as a gunsmith lathe the headstock is too long.

Wayne Shaw
01-24-2014, 08:32 AM
As been said here, all the neck turners operate about the same. I started with a Sinclair, found the expanders and mandrels weren't matched very well. So I made a bunch myself.That helped a lot.

Then I bought a K&M with the carbide mandrel, and never looked back. The carbide mandrel makes a BIG difference, and the expanders match very well.

Boyd Allen
01-24-2014, 09:43 AM
I do not have a heat issue when turning, and it is my opinion that those that do have expander mandrels that are too small for their turning mandrels, and are turning too fast. For brass for my .262 neck chambers, I take two cuts. The first one comes within .001 or so of the final thickness. I do this with an old Sinclair tool that has a smaller mandrel than I would use for a finish cut. This does away with all brassing and heat issues, and any inaccuracy will be taken care of on the finish cut. The final cut fit is eased by the removal of that material. I have an old Makita drill that I use to turn with, with the gear box set for low range, and the trigger not fully pulled. I make the finish cut with a K&M with a carbide mandrel, and would not go back to steel for that application. I check every neck with my neck mic., after finish turning. Technique is also important. I intentionally feed to the shoulder much too rapidly to make a clean cut, so that I am cutting all the way back to the case mouth, which I do at a very slow feed rate. This keeps the neck securely pinned to the mandrel the whole time that the cutter is on the neck, which is what you want for consistent thickness. After, I finish turning, I wrap some 0000 around the neck and spin it at a the fastest RPM in the slow range for about a second, Then I measure. My results are good, and that validates my procedure. One last thing: I used a K&M case driver for years before switching to a 21st Century. The difference is night and day. I get almost no wobble, and securing the case by hand is not a problem. It works a lot better.

Chism G
01-24-2014, 12:50 PM
They all work about the same and do the same thing. Find the cheapest one you can and start cuttin'.

Whether or not you need an even neck all around remains up for grabs. Get one and have fun while you still can. Sorry I don't have more info.


Good advice. Neck turning tools are not on the winners equipment list.




Glenn

alinwa
01-24-2014, 03:19 PM
Friggin Wilbur ennyways....... why's he always do that?? Inject logic and reason into what could be a nice fracas? Don't he know he's s'posed to tout the advertiser that spe...


Ahh fuhgeddabou'dit

al

Jim Cox
01-24-2014, 04:01 PM
I do not have a heat issue when turning, and it is my opinion that those that do have expander mandrels that are too small for their turning mandrels, and are turning too fast. For brass for my .262 neck chambers, I take two cuts. The first one comes within .001 or so of the final thickness. I do this with an old Sinclair tool that has a smaller mandrel than I would use for a finish cut. This does away with all brassing and heat issues, and any inaccuracy will be taken care of on the finish cut. The final cut fit is eased by the removal of that material. I have an old Makita drill that I use to turn with, with the gear box set for low range, and the trigger not fully pulled. I make the finish cut with a K&M with a carbide mandrel, and would not go back to steel for that application. I check every neck with my neck mic., after finish turning. Technique is also important. I intentionally feed to the shoulder much too rapidly to make a clean cut, so that I am cutting all the way back to the case mouth, which I do at a very slow feed rate. This keeps the neck securely pinned to the mandrel the whole time that the cutter is on the neck, which is what you want for consistent thickness. After, I finish turning, I wrap some 0000 around the neck and spin it at a the fastest RPM in the slow range for about a second, Then I measure. My results are good, and that validates my procedure. One last thing: I used a K&M case driver for years before switching to a 21st Century. The difference is night and day. I get almost no wobble, and securing the case by hand is not a problem. It works a lot better.

This is very helpful, thank you.

I went with a JACO turner because I like the adjustability of it and the history behind it. From all accounts it's a great tool, and I'll find out for myself here very shortly.

I wouldn't have known to advance the case quickly and turn slowly to the mouth, so thank you for that tidbit. I plan on putting the JACO in my Versa Vise and using my cordless drill to turn the cases with the 21st Century case driver.

Something I've seen a lot of conflicting opinions on:

Size and trim cases before turning, fire form then size trim and turn, or another order? I get the feeling there are a bunch of different answers and opinions, and I'd like to hear them.

Another thing, turning case necks with a taper. I know the JACO will turn a taper into the neck, but can be adjusted for a straight cut. Is there any consensus on advantages/disadvantages to a taper? I'm looking for personal or close second hand experience with them, and quantifiable information.

Jim Cox
01-24-2014, 04:11 PM
The Monarch 10EE is grossly overpriced, IMO, and as a gunsmith lathe the headstock is too long.

Most of the smithing I do is on 1911's, I'm out of my depth with rifle barrels. Single pointing a .45 chamber and crowning is about as much as I can do on a lathe right now. Which lathes will match the precision of a 10EE with an appropriately sized headstock for rifle barrels? I've looked into the Rivett 1020S and Hardinge HLV-H, I have a thing for older equipment that's made in America. Any input would be appreciated.

jackie schmidt
01-24-2014, 09:06 PM
The Monarch 10EE is grossly overpriced, IMO, and as a gunsmith lathe the headstock is too long.

Plus one on that. Ours has the 6 station turrent instead of the tail stock, and all we use it for is a small turrent lathe.

There are much better lathes suited for Gunsmith work.

Jim Cox
01-24-2014, 09:41 PM
Plus one on that. Ours has the 6 station turrent instead of the tail stock, and all we use it for is a small turrent lathe.

There are much better lathes suited for Gunsmith work.

Recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Jim

JerrySharrett
01-25-2014, 06:12 AM
Recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Jim

South Bend Heavy 10 and never look back.

JerrySharrett
01-25-2014, 03:52 PM
Look at the name on this turner!



http://i42.tinypic.com/317go6s.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2078e95.jpg

Jim Cox
01-25-2014, 04:22 PM
Look at the name on this turner!



http://i42.tinypic.com/317go6s.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2078e95.jpg

Whoa! That's a veritable treasure right there. Beautiful!

virg
01-25-2014, 04:26 PM
Whoa! That's a veritable treasure right there. Beautiful!

T J Jackson made them with designer Pindell's permission. Then AJ Walker started to make them with permission.

virg

Butch Lambert
01-25-2014, 04:44 PM
I firmly believe the 10EE is the Rolls Royce of accuracy. Unless you can find one of the few 30" between center model, it has too long of a headstock for barreling. They can be bought at a reasonable price if you have patience. I use a 6913 Clausing 14X48 to chamber in the headstock. I had to make a cathead for both sides of the headstock to be able to do a 21" barrel. I really like the M300 Harrison and the Rockwell lathes. A Southbend of proper size will work.
I sold my Jaco that came from TJ's estate years ago. It was well made, but I felt it was too heavy to hold and turn. If you are able to put it in a vise it would work better.

Jim Cox
01-25-2014, 05:21 PM
I firmly believe the 10EE is the Rolls Royce of accuracy. Unless you can find one of the few 30" between center model, it has too long of a headstock for barreling. They can be bought at a reasonable price if you have patience. I use a 6913 Clausing 14X48 to chamber in the headstock. I had to make a cathead for both sides of the headstock to be able to do a 21" barrel. I really like the M300 Harrison and the Rockwell lathes. A Southbend of proper size will work.
I sold my Jaco that came from TJ's estate years ago. It was well made, but I felt it was too heavy to hold and turn. If you are able to put it in a vise it would work better.

I have a Will Burt tall jaw Versa Vise and a Columbian standard jaw Gyro Vise, I use them for pistolsmithing extensively, I don't know how I got by without them. They both have 13oz saddle leather soft jaws, and the tall jaw one is the one I use for tool holding (sear jigs, etc) so it will hold the JACO.

I'm trying to find a lathe that will do what the 10EE will do as far as tolerances, but won't prevent me from doing barrels. If I can build a 1911 to group 10 @ 50 yards into 2", then I should be able to learn how to accurately chamber and thread a rifle barrel. I'm moving to central PA later this year, so I'll start really looking for a lathe around then. For now I'm doing my research. If I could find a 30" bed Monarch, would it be safe to say I could do barrel work on it?

Butch Lambert
01-25-2014, 06:03 PM
Jim, I wouldn't want a worn out lathe, but if you chamber in the headstock all that is important is the spindle bearings. Cutting and threading the tenon will be no problem as a worn out set of ways will have a miniscule amount of taper in a 1"-1.250" tenon. The spindle bore on a HLV-H is too small to chamber in a headstock and the Rivett's headstock is too wide. I love the 10EE because 99% of most people's work is less than 13" swing and shorter than 20". Another lathe can handle the barreling. 30" 10EE would be nice if you were chambering in a steady rest. They're very very few out there and command a premium price.

Jim Cox
01-25-2014, 06:14 PM
Jim, I wouldn't want a worn out lathe, but if you chamber in the headstock all that is important is the spindle bearings. Cutting and threading the tenon will be no problem as a worn out set of ways will have a miniscule amount of taper in a 1"-1.250" tenon. The spindle bore on a HLV-H is too small to chamber in a headstock and the Rivett's headstock is too wide. I love the 10EE because 99% of most people's work is less than 13" swing and shorter than 20". Another lathe can handle the barreling. 30" 10EE would be nice if you were chambering in a steady rest. They're very very few out there and command a premium price.

Just checking my reading comprehension skills here...

So if I found a 30" 10EE with spindle bearings in good to excellent condition and good ways, then I'd be able to do what I'm looking to do with a steady rest? Threading, chambering, and crowning barrels, and truing random project actions like the Mauser sitting in a bag waiting for a barrel under my bench?

Thank you for your advice, I'm all ears if you're feeling inclined to share more!

Jim

alinwa
01-26-2014, 03:21 AM
I have taken scrap pieces of pipe and some purpose-bought pieces, and made up a few "butt fittings" and I extend barrels routinely so that they'll fit through the headstock and engage the catshead.


In other words, I don't see headstock dimension to be a limiting factor for chambering through the headstock. I recently dialed in an 8" pistol barrel, through the headstock, chambered like buttahh, with a boring tool....... so if the Monarch 10EE is really the be-all and end-all of "precision" then IMO letting the headstock dimension be a part of your buying decision is inappropriate.

If you can't get the cow to water ya got's ta carry the water to the cow......

al

JerrySharrett
01-26-2014, 06:13 AM
When someone is asking a question about a benchrest situation on this forum I am assuming they are not talking about threading a water pipe or taking a cow to water.

In chambering a BENCHREST barrel the breech bore and the muzzle bore need to be dialed in as close as possible, at least within 0.0005”, IMO.

A good BENCHREST chambered barrel, when screwed on an action/scope/barrel assembly that has been zeroed, that just installed barrel should print within about 2” or less of the just removed barrel if it is given its best chance to be a competitive barrel.

The Monarch 10AEE lathe does not allow the above to be accomplished unless the finished barrel is about 28” or so long. I agree that the 10EE has very precise spindle bearings and they should be since replacement cost of that bearing pack is now in the $20,000 range. The South Bend Heavy 10 runs on an oil film in bronze bushings which makes for a much smoother setup and results in a better workpiece finish. Note that precision cylindrical grinders use the bronze bushing/oil film method and not ball or roller bearings.

JerrySharrett
01-26-2014, 08:38 AM
FWIW, YouTube has a bunch of videos. Just search for "case neck turning".


Edit- This video from S&S Precision (Speedys old shop) shows building a long range benchrest rifle using a South Bend Heavy 10. IIRC, Speedy had more than one Heavy 10.

Many HOF shooters use the Heavy 10. One of the most famous benchrest gunsmiths, ever, Seeley Masker, had 3 Heavy 10's, His son Jerry still owns them.

The most recent IBS 600 yard group record, set by Rodney Wagner, that barrel was chambered on a Heavy 10 of which Rodney owns 2.
Rodney set 600 yard IBS records of 0.336" and a score record of 50. You have to admit, a 0.336" at 600 yards proves something!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1opz3d97iY8&app=desktop

Jim Cox
01-26-2014, 03:22 PM
FWIW, YouTube has a bunch of videos. Just search for "case neck turning".


Edit- This video from S&S Precision (Speedys old shop) shows building a long range benchrest rifle using a South Bend Heavy 10. IIRC, Speedy had more than one Heavy 10.

Many HOF shooters use the Heavy 10. One of the most famous benchrest gunsmiths, ever, Seeley Masker, had 3 Heavy 10's, His son Jerry still owns them.

The most recent IBS 600 yard group record, set by Rodney Wagner, that barrel was chambered on a Heavy 10 of which Rodney owns 2.
Rodney set 600 yard IBS records of 0.336" and a score record of 50. You have to admit, a 0.336" at 600 yards proves something!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1opz3d97iY8&app=desktop

I had been looking for a Heavy 10 before someone told me about the Monarch, but if the Heavy 10 can match it in precision, and is more affordable to buy and maintain, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense not to buy a Heavy 10, other than the history of the 10EE and it's just plain good lookin'.

alinwa
01-26-2014, 08:56 PM
When someone is asking a question about a benchrest situation on this forum I am assuming they are not talking about threading a water pipe or taking a cow to water.

In chambering a BENCHREST barrel the breech bore and the muzzle bore need to be dialed in as close as possible, at least within 0.0005”, IMO.

A good BENCHREST chambered barrel, when screwed on an action/scope/barrel assembly that has been zeroed, that just installed barrel should print within about 2” or less of the just removed barrel if it is given its best chance to be a competitive barrel.

The Monarch 10AEE lathe does not allow the above to be accomplished unless the finished barrel is about 28” or so long. I agree that the 10EE has very precise spindle bearings and they should be since replacement cost of that bearing pack is now in the $20,000 range. The South Bend Heavy 10 runs on an oil film in bronze bushings which makes for a much smoother setup and results in a better workpiece finish. Note that precision cylindrical grinders use the bronze bushing/oil film method and not ball or roller bearings.

Jerry, I use the pipe because your way is TOO CRUDE for me..... I would no more chamber between centers on a real gun than I'd jam a "roughing reamer" in and eat out a chamber under pressure. This isn't a production shop, the fact that you can chamber a barrel in three minutes doesn't make me feel all fuzzy inside.

Barrel I crowned last night wandered almost 30thou..... $350.00 blank...... If I'd have set it up your way for a chambering job the chamber would have come out over a thou over-sized...... OR, if I'd have pre-bored it the throat would have been .002 off center to the bore!!!


Not for me your old school ideas :)

pipes are good, it's all in how you use them :)

Pipes ("barrel extensions" if you will) allow one to chamber even a short barrel well through the headstock of a larger lathe.

For any of you interested in real precision I can post pix.

For those of you looking for "better ways to get both ends lined up" I got nuttin...... although I do have a standoff extension bracket on the backside of my headstock which holds a test indicator..... for roughing in to center of the catshead.

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 02:59 AM
Al,

I've been reading and looking most of the day, and to my mind, chambering with a cathead and spider on the outboard of the headstock seems like it would produce a good chamber. With a cathead that allows two points of adjustment, would I be correct in thinking that it would support a barrel too short to reach the spider adequately to thread and chamber? Most of my barrels fall into the 28-30" range, though shorter will eventually happen.

I am very interested in seeing pictures, I won't be getting a lathe until the wife and I move later this year so in the meantime I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

alinwa
01-27-2014, 04:19 AM
Al,

I've been reading and looking most of the day, and to my mind, chambering with a cathead and spider on the outboard of the headstock seems like it would produce a good chamber. With a cathead that allows two points of adjustment, would I be correct in thinking that it would support a barrel too short to reach the spider adequately to thread and chamber? Most of my barrels fall into the 28-30" range, though shorter will eventually happen.

I am very interested in seeing pictures, I won't be getting a lathe until the wife and I move later this year so in the meantime I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

I'll try to get some pix up....

I've really grown to love thid "thru the headstock" method of chambering, I can now easily make 3 or 5 or ten chambers identical enough to share brass day to day. This simply was not possible back when I was in gunsmithing school. Times have changed. Methods have changed. Enough that I bought another lathe, someting I said I'd never do. Enough that nowadays what with measuring and slugging and lapping I can evaluate a barrel where ten yrs ago it was just luck of the draw.....I look back at "State Of The Art" from ten yrs ago and cringe today. The idea of just guessing where the throat is on a long case like a 30-06, or jamming a piloted reamer in to "follow the bore" is what turned me away from chambering yrs ago.

Now I don't guess...... I KNOW where the barrel's pointed, because I POINTED IT THERE!! :)

My next really big project/purchase is a jackable chuck....... I can't wait to be able to chuck die blanks and actions and even short barrels up and dial them to straight.


So..... my "pipes" are the result of my subsonic projects. I developed a need for BR chambering methods in short 16" barrels.

It's a fun time to be alive :)

al

alinwa
01-27-2014, 04:22 AM
Al,

With a cathead that allows two points of adjustment, would I be correct in thinking that it would support a barrel too short to reach the spider adequately to thread and chamber?.


yes :)

alinwa
01-27-2014, 04:57 AM
I made a mistake, I've been using "catshead" where I meant "spider"...... anyways, that adjustable screw setup on the outboard end of the tailstock that allows one to dial in the barrel so that one can decide between setting the muzzle straight in front of the chamber, or not....


my mistake


BTW, my first "barrel extension" was a "double-ended action" where I made a 1.350D dummy action threaded for Rem700 on one end and Sav110 on the other so that I could go over to the rack and grab up a barrel and screw it in for an extension, for crowning and fitting brakes. The next was a hunk of stock threaded for the muzzle...... a "12inch long bloop tube" or a "12in muzzle brake" made JUST to reach the spider.....


Now I've got an assortment of extensions....


al

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 04:58 AM
Excellent! I like the way you think. I'm very interested to see these pictures.

Way off my original question, but pertinent to the course this thread has taken....
There's a 16x30 Pratt & Whitney lathe for sale locally, no good pictures or model, I'm assuming a B or C, for $2k. Lathe has been in storage, and is not under power. I've read good things, and it seems like a common spindle bore for the 16" is 2", which obviously give me plenty of room to get even a large dia heavy gun barrel through there for chambering. Would something like that be worth the gamble to snatch up? In the event the ways are all boogered and need to be planed and scraped, and the spindle bearings need to be replaced (as I understand it the B model uses ball bearings and the C uses angular contact bearings), would it end up being a an over-engineered garage decoration, or a doable project to restore to good working condition?

I've also found a few Monarch engine lathes in the 78" range, which I'm assuming are on the order of barreling a 105mm....or should I consider those as well?

For the same reason I decided on a JACO, I'm in at as much for the history and uniqueness as I am the finished product. Thank you for all the help and information, I'm learning a lot here.

ETA:

I'm pretty sure it's a Model C.

JerrySharrett
01-27-2014, 10:40 AM
View from chambering end showing floating usher.

http://i41.tinypic.com/wjvyug.jpg

View from muzzle end showing muzzle being dialed in.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2ex93qq.jpg

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 12:09 PM
Thanks for the pictures Jerry, I've saved them for future reference.

alinwa
01-27-2014, 01:39 PM
Excellent! I like the way you think. I'm very interested to see these pictures.

Way off my original question, but pertinent to the course this thread has taken....
There's a 16x30 Pratt & Whitney lathe for sale locally, no good pictures or model, I'm assuming a B or C, for $2k. Lathe has been in storage, and is not under power. I've read good things, and it seems like a common spindle bore for the 16" is 2", which obviously give me plenty of room to get even a large dia heavy gun barrel through there for chambering. Would something like that be worth the gamble to snatch up? In the event the ways are all boogered and need to be planed and scraped, and the spindle bearings need to be replaced (as I understand it the B model uses ball bearings and the C uses angular contact bearings), would it end up being a an over-engineered garage decoration, or a doable project to restore to good working condition?

I've also found a few Monarch engine lathes in the 78" range, which I'm assuming are on the order of barreling a 105mm....or should I consider those as well?

For the same reason I decided on a JACO, I'm in at as much for the history and uniqueness as I am the finished product. Thank you for all the help and information, I'm learning a lot here.

ETA:

I'm pretty sure it's a Model C.


I have no idea.... this is Jerry's domain. Jerry Sharrett is a real machinist, a machinery guy's machinery guy. I am not. Jerry has ate, drank and slept with metalworking equipment longer than I've been alive. I'm disagreeing with Jerry's chambering method, not with his ability to make chips. I can't be in the same room with Jerry Sharrett when it comes to machining parts. I do this only because I've been shown that barrel blanks are CROOKED, that unless you can run into the bore 3-4-5 inches and actually stick a tool on the throat/leade area, you are guessing. Jerry's setup, as in the pictures is what I use to rough in my blanks before checking them for runout ....kinda'.... The only thing I do different is that I run an outboard test indicator into the bore, a longstem indicator in past the lapping bell. The setup in the pictures using a tapered, piloted "Range Rod" counts on the lapping bell being concentric. They're not concentric to the bore, ever. The setup pictured already has at least a half thou of lapping bell eccentricity error PLUS the slop in the bushing PLUS the linear runout from the crooked bore, PLUS it's a plunger indic good for half a thou....... Don't blow smoke up my skirt about "50 millionths" (a STUPID-a$$ measure if there ever was one!) when there's a 5-dollar plunger setting on a rod in the bore...... And that's just the outboard end. on the inboard end, the working end, there's been no attempt made to find the throat. There can't be, even on a PPC it's iffy and you can't run an indicator into a long chamber. The only reason BR gunsmith's continue to get by with this method is that short, heavy BR barrels and super short BR chambers act to minimize runout error stack. Plus, on a PPC it's perty easy to reach in and stick an indicator on the throat to check it, once you've whacked off the lapping bell, and opened up the chamber.......BUT..... this is only "getting by" it's still not good enough for me.

I do what I do because I don't trust anything...... like die blanks. The way they're "done" is by putting the blank in a collet and reaming out a hole for your usage. Problem is, now that I have measured up 15-20 die blanks I find them to vary in three critical dimensions. The bores vary in size and are not straight, either to themselves or to the od.

BARRELS ARE BENT!

Once you realize this your choices become more about what you're willing to live with than the kind of machinery you own.

I bought a Grizzly because the owner of the company came on this forum and asked for specs to design an adequate gunsmith's hobby lathe, then offered the lathe for literally 1/10 the price of anything comparable. The G4003G is not a junk lathe. In fact many of the people who tear them up are comparing them to "real lathes" with prices from $20,000.00 to 200,000.00. But it's THE ONLY small hobby lathe I'm comfortable recommending. To real people with real budgets. Shiraz, the owner/builder/designer of this lathe and of South Bend Company stands behind it. It has an upgraded headstock bearing and will cut and thread glassy smooth as long as the operator can do his part.

I bought into Gordy Gritters' method of indicating because it allows me to actually isolate variables that the standard methods do not. and because it's completely repeatable AND because it agrees with measurements taken with a test indicator AND because it allows one to indicate BOTH lands and grooves AND.... I could go on and on. And all the detractors have got is "but it reads off the top of the lands and that stupid rod is probably riding up the bore, climbing and twisting and flexing and....."


But it doesn't.


And the results speak for themselves.... I can make 5 chambers that match now. And make a die to match that chamber. And make another matching chamber 20yrs later.

And I can make a hunting rifle shoot dots with hunting bullets, not just with short-range cheater bullets.

And my cases really DO last forever.

facts stand alone

al

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 01:46 PM
Al,

Great information to have. I'm trying to soak up all I can, so I'm going to go through and re-read this a little later today.

If anyone knows where a guy could find a tailstock for a Model C Pratt & Whitney lathe (16x30 if it matters), I'd be eternally grateful. Going to look at one right now that appears to be in phenomenal condition, M1696 Serial 557.

Thanks,

Jim

alinwa
01-27-2014, 02:23 PM
On lapping bells..... in looking at Jerry's pix, I may have misspoke. The rod he's measuring off of may well be setting in a finished crown....but in ANY case, using this method you've got to start somewhere, and you will either be stuffing a rod into a lapping bell or a bandsawed-off barrel or you're gonna' be flipping it end-to-end a few times whilst you work your way in to something decent....

Which is why I use long stem test indicators on both ends when I rough in a setup like Jerry is using to chamber. And yes, I've found runout in the first 2.5 inches of both ends.

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 03:56 PM
Okay, so it looks like I've acquired a lathe.

It's a 1957 Pratt & Whitney 16 x 30 Model C. The ways are in overall excellent condition, it has a 3 jaw chuck that's original to the lathe, and from appearances it's been used very lightly in a small shop. The carriage assembly is all solid, though I think that the gears on the course traverse wheel may be a little rough, the leadscrew is clean and undamaged. The spindle is solid, and all the levers operate smoothly with no grit or chunk. The lathe has been in storage for years, and was not under power. One thing that I am going to have to track down is a tailstock for it, the previous owner did not use one and the lathe is missing the original. Any ideas where I can track one down?

Oh yeah, I traded an AR15 for it.

I inspected the lathe to the best of my ability (don't have a dial indicator or I would have checked runout at the spindle bore on both ends), and it appears to be a great machine, the catch is the missing tailstock. If anyone knows of a good machinery mover in the Houston area, I'd be buying them a drink.

Jim

JerrySharrett
01-27-2014, 04:17 PM
The chamber end is dialed in with an Interapid indicator and a probe that extends into the chamber neck area. Then I predrill slightly smaller than the chamber shoulder and bore to about 0..010" undersize for the reamer body to follow. This allows the reamer pilot to engage the indicated area just as the reamer body engages the prebore. That way all the curvature of the breech end, if any, is gone.

http://i40.tinypic.com/15o8rb7.jpg

alinwa
01-27-2014, 04:26 PM
The chamber end is dialed in with an Interapid indicator and a probe that extends into the chamber neck area. Then I predrill slightly smaller than the chamber shoulder and bore to about 0..010" undersize for the reamer body to follow. This allows the reamer pilot to engage the indicated area just as the reamer body engages the prebore. That way all the curvature of the breech end, if any, is gone.

http://i40.tinypic.com/15o8rb7.jpg

Nice.... the "2 points" then are muzzle a the throat, good choices IMO. And on a PPC it should hit within a couple inches a 100.

Now try do a 30-06 :)

Or a 32" long 338 Lapua!

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 04:43 PM
I realized I needed to fix my bad terminology...

The carriage handwheel is a little clunky for about 180 degrees of rotation, then smooth, for every rotation of the handwheel. Is this going to cause me problems?

JerrySharrett
01-27-2014, 04:45 PM
Okay, so it looks like I've acquired a lathe.

It's a 1957 Pratt & Whitney 16 x 30 Model C.

. One thing that I am going to have to track down is a tailstock for it, the previous owner did not use one and the lathe is missing the original. Any ideas where I can track one down?

Oh yeah, I traded an AR15 for it.

I inspected the lathe to the best of my ability (don't have a dial indicator or I would have checked runout at the spindle bore on both ends), and it appears to be a great machine, the catch is the missing tailstock. If anyone knows of a good machinery mover in the Houston area, I'd be buying them a drink.

Jim
Traded an AR 15 for it. Good trade. Those little POD (Piece of Dooky) guns was where the PTA (Powers That Are) started disarming the American GI's.

Tailstock? Rots of Ruck!! Try a Yahoo search for "used machine tool parts"

That sucker will be heavy.

JerrySharrett
01-27-2014, 04:51 PM
Like this one??

http://www.nrmachinesales.com/lathes/l300062.htm

JerrySharrett
01-27-2014, 04:54 PM
A 32" long 338 Lapua?? Wonder were they got the brass?

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 05:02 PM
Like this one??

http://www.nrmachinesales.com/lathes/l300062.htm

Yes sir, just like that one, just not as shiny and clean.

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 05:05 PM
A 32" long 338 Lapua?? Wonder were they got the brass?

Probably necked down a driveshaft from a Freightliner!


It's definitely heavy, I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to move it without paying the movers more than I got the lathe for! I'm looking around trying to find a tailstock for it now, hopefully I'll find one pretty quick. Also hoping P&W still has a few manuals laying around for it, I'd like to get it up and running before the next ice age.

Hal
01-27-2014, 07:03 PM
You might check over on the practical machinist forum for a tailstock. If you find one you better buy a Lotto ticket.

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 07:15 PM
Thanks Hal, I just registered over there and am going to put up a WTB thread to track one down, and another thread to get as much information and input as possible on these lathes.

Jim

alinwa
01-27-2014, 08:07 PM
A 32" long 338 Lapua?? Wonder were they got the brass?

Powder Valley, Third Gen, Graf & Sons or Sinclair with your FFL.

Midway, Amazon, Cabela's all the usual suspects for retail.

Or, "same place you get your PPC brass" if you prefer :)

I order them together, gener'ly, saves on shipping....

(that's "me" though, as opposed to "they.")

hth

al

alinwa
01-27-2014, 08:11 PM
Okay, so it looks like I've acquired a lathe.


Jim

that's too frickin-cool-for-words

happy happy happy

al

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 08:21 PM
that's too frickin-cool-for-words

happy happy happy

al

You're telling me! Having a cleaning party with a few buds to strip down all the grease and crud and get it in working order. Open invite to anyone who cares to come help, beer and food will be provided.

JerrySharrett
01-27-2014, 09:12 PM
Jim, re: the beer, I'll not be able to attend but I can send you my mailing address;

Seriously though, you CAN chamber without a tailstock. Installing a DRO would be a great help if you can't find a tailstock.

With a DRO you can set up a reference point and use tool holders on your cross slide that hold, drills, reamers, etc if that makes sense.
The dro keeps you from having to dial in the above suggested holders each time.

Aloris and its clones make drop-on holders just for that purpose.
PS there are some good Aloris clones that are considerably cheaper.

http://www.mscdirect.com/product/03309622

alinwa
01-27-2014, 09:22 PM
I'll second Jerry's advice re the DRO, they rock.

I've ordered 4 setups from DROPROS and am happy with them. IMO The ES-8A lathe setup with two axes @ 500.00 is must-have equipment and astoundingly accurate.

al

Jim Cox
01-27-2014, 09:30 PM
So let me get this straight, I don't have to have my cake in order to eat it too?! You're telling me that with the right tool post and tools, I can chamber as accurately as with the tailstock? This day just keeps getting better and better! I will definitely be looking into the DRO, I get the distinct feeling that it would be the difference between chambering like buttah with it and like curdled milk without it.

alinwa
01-28-2014, 02:13 AM
So let me get this straight, I don't have to have my cake in order to eat it too?! You're telling me that with the right tool post and tools, I can chamber as accurately as with the tailstock? This day just keeps getting better and better! I will definitely be looking into the DRO, I get the distinct feeling that it would be the difference between chambering like buttah with it and like curdled milk without it.

I can't answer for the mechanics of that not knowing the characteristics of your lathe drives but MY first impulse would be to install a DRO pickup on the top or tool (turret?) feed slide, also called the "compound," instead of trying to drive a reamer using the carriage wheel. That said, I do use the carriage DRO to cut my bolthead relief (Rem700/Stiller TAC/Pred style) and it's really easy to hit a thou.

DO use a pusher like Jerry shows!!! This is HUGE in my opinion. I think it would be a real tactical mistake to mount a sliding reamer holder on the toolpost.

al

JerrySharrett
01-28-2014, 11:24 AM
Jim, IIRC Jackie Schmidt, on this board and lives in Houston has a P&W about that size and would be a good person to contact. He is well versed on machining benchrest quality barrels.

With that long headstock you will have to make at least three bushings for the outboard end of the barrel.

The first bushing will need to be a good slip fit in the spindle bore and the ID will need to be to match the barrel breech OD. The first operation will be to use that bushing to stabilize the
breech end in the headstock while you prepare the muzzle end. With the barrel held in your 4-jaw chuck and the breech end stabilized as above, dial in the muzzle bore. You can then turn a short fit 1/2" or so to a diameter to fit the ID of the next bushing below. (Say 1/2" OD X 1/2" long.)

The second bushing, same OD and the ID will be to fit whatever size you choose to turn the short fit described above. You will then turn the barrel around and indicate the end to be chambered with this bushing stabilizing the muzzle end in the headstock.

The third bushing, same OD, and the ID threaded to fit the barrel tenon thread. After chambering and threading turn the barrel back around again, you will machine off that muzzle snub, reindicate the muzzle bore and crown the barrel.

Yes, you will be turning the barrel around at least 3 times with that machine but the 3 time swap is also required on most lathes like the SB Heavy 10 which has a short headstock.

Jim Cox
01-28-2014, 03:32 PM
Jim, IIRC Jackie Schmidt, on this board and lives in Houston has a P&W about that size and would be a good person to contact. He is well versed on machining benchrest quality barrels.

With that long headstock you will have to make at least three bushings for the outboard end of the barrel.

The first bushing will need to be a good slip fit in the spindle bore and the ID will need to be to match the barrel breech OD. The first operation will be to use that bushing to stabilize the
breech end in the headstock while you prepare the muzzle end. With the barrel held in your 4-jaw chuck and the breech end stabilized as above, dial in the muzzle bore. You can then turn a short fit 1/2" or so to a diameter to fit the ID of the next bushing below. (Say 1/2" OD X 1/2" long.)

The second bushing, same OD and the ID will be to fit whatever size you choose to turn the short fit described above. You will then turn the barrel around and indicate the end to be chambered with this bushing stabilizing the muzzle end in the headstock.

The third bushing, same OD, and the ID threaded to fit the barrel tenon thread. After chambering and threading turn the barrel back around again, you will machine off that muzzle snub, reindicate the muzzle bore and crown the barrel.

Yes, you will be turning the barrel around at least 3 times with that machine but the 3 time swap is also required on most lathes like the SB Heavy 10 which has a short headstock.

Jerry,

I will get in touch with Jackie whenever I get the lathe in here and start getting it cleaned up and ready to start up. In the meantime I'm trying to get a visual and get my head wrapped around the bushing thing, I think I've got the idea but I'll keep cooking my brain a little thinking on it.

One thing I was wondering, because the outboard end of the spindle bore is so tight on the bottom, would it be a reasonable idea to turn a taper onto a length of trued cylinder to make a spider that will self align in the spindle bore to hold the barrel, that way it will get far enough past the clearance issues to function correctly?

JerrySharrett
01-28-2014, 04:44 PM
Jerry,


One thing I was wondering, because the outboard end of the spindle bore is so tight on the bottom, would it be a reasonable idea to turn a taper onto a length of trued cylinder to make a spider that will self align in the spindle bore to hold the barrel, that way it will get far enough past the clearance issues to function correctly?


(So tight on the bottom?)

Jackie will be best to answer that since I'm not really familiar with the P&W spindle bores. There will be multiple ways to skin that calf.
IIRC, Jackie ran a reamer through his lathe spindle for some reason. It may have been to true it up???

Jim Cox
01-28-2014, 05:12 PM
I'm moving it here on Friday, and getting it leveled and set up, draining oil and flushing the system out, pulling the carriage off and cleaning/degreasing all the ways and gears, checking out everything the manuals illustrate, topping off the lubrication, checking the wiring, hooking up the 3 phase convertor and working on firing it up for the first time. Trying to track down a good quality tool post as well, I'm trying to get an American made one. It just seems wrong to put Chicom stuff on an American workhorse like this lathe. I'd definitely be curious as to why he ran a reamer through the spindle, and where he found a reamer that size, how he did it, etc.

Jim


ETA: Tight on the bottom of the spindle, the change gear housing sticks out right there and makes for a clearance issue for a couple inches.

JerrySharrett
01-29-2014, 08:58 AM
Chicom stuff on an American workhorse like this lathe. I'd definitely be curious as to why he ran a reamer through the spindle, and where he found a reamer that size, how he did it, etc.

Jim


ETA: Tight on the bottom of the spindle, the change gear housing sticks out right there and makes for a clearance issue for a couple inches.

I agree entirely about the Chicom stuff. I am thinking he ran a reamer through the spindle shaft to make it a more consistent diameter from end to end and that would allow for closer fitting bushings similar to the ones I mentioned above. Running a reamer through the spindle bore certainlly would not "straighten" the bore but just make it more precise in diameter.

Like I mentioned earlier, Jackie would be better qualified on fitting the lathe you just bought for rifle barrel fitting.

Jim Cox
01-29-2014, 06:51 PM
I agree entirely about the Chicom stuff. I am thinking he ran a reamer through the spindle shaft to make it a more consistent diameter from end to end and that would allow for closer fitting bushings similar to the ones I mentioned above. Running a reamer through the spindle bore certainlly would not "straighten" the bore but just make it more precise in diameter.

Like I mentioned earlier, Jackie would be better qualified on fitting the lathe you just bought for rifle barrel fitting.

I put up a thread over at practicalmachinist, hopefully I'll get some good input over there, I really appreciate the help you've given me.

Now that I have a lathe, would it be more appropriate to use a collet to hold brass and use HSS tools to turn necks? I can't imagine a handheld tool matching the precision of a 5,000lb lathe with a sharp cutter and rigid tool post. Come to think of it, I could probably grind a cutter to make a cut just touching the shoulder at 30º and turn the necks in one pass, turning at about 80ish RPMs, thoughts?

Jim

JerrySharrett
01-29-2014, 07:35 PM
I put up a thread over at practicalmachinist, hopefully I'll get some good input over there, I really appreciate the help you've given me.

Now that I have a lathe, would it be more appropriate to use a collet to hold brass and use HSS tools to turn necks? I can't imagine a handheld tool matching the precision of a 5,000lb lathe with a sharp cutter and rigid tool post. Come to think of it, I could probably grind a cutter to make a cut just touching the shoulder at 30º and turn the necks in one pass, turning at about 80ish RPMs, thoughts?

Jim

To get good results neck turning on an engine lathe you need to turn a mandrel each time and you still don't get great results because a lathe, even a 10EE or Hardinge HV-L must have a working clearance for the spindle to turn. Besides that is overkill and dangerous!!

Jim Cox
01-29-2014, 11:02 PM
Okay, then I will definitely use the JACO instead of the lathe. Good info. Thanks!

Jim

Butch Lambert
01-30-2014, 11:02 AM
Before you get hot and bothered about all of this, contact Jackie at RG Schmidt and Sons. He will be very helpful to you and in a no BS way. They are a very large shop that makes, straightens, or repairs the shafts for large boats. They have a multitude of machinery. Jackie has shown on this forum how he neck turns in a lathe. You can go to Mike Bryant's website and see how he does it in a lathe. I turn mine in a lathe with a collet, but use a Pumpkin neck turning tool. If I were cutting them with a lathe, I sure wouldn't use a collet.

Jim Cox
01-30-2014, 11:23 AM
Before you get hot and bothered about all of this, contact Jackie at RG Schmidt and Sons. He will be very helpful to you and in a no BS way. They are a very large shop that makes, straightens, or repairs the shafts for large boats. They have a multitude of machinery. Jackie has shown on this forum how he neck turns in a lathe. You can go to Mike Bryant's website and see how he does it in a lathe. I turn mine in a lathe with a collet, but use a Pumpkin neck turning tool. If I were cutting them with a lathe, I sure wouldn't use a collet.

Thank you for the advice Butch, I will make sure to give him a buzz when I get this behemoth into the garage tomorrow. For now my biggest concern is getting it safely in place and leveled up.

If you were to turn on a lathe, how would you go about it personally? I like to hear as many opinions as I can get.

Jim

Butch Lambert
01-30-2014, 11:39 AM
I will continue to turn mine as I now do it. I believe Jackie and Mike turn a spud in the chuck? collett?, and then press the brass on the spud. I think Mike uses a shell holder in the tailstock. He uses that to press the brass on to the spud and does his turning. The shell holder is used to pull the brass off the spud. The spud is a throwaway as you need to turn one each neck turning session.

Dave Coots
01-30-2014, 12:24 PM
Before you get hot and bothered about all of this, contact Jackie at RG Schmidt and Sons. He will be very helpful to you and in a no BS way. They are a very large shop that makes, straightens, or repairs the shafts for large boats. They have a multitude of machinery. Jackie has shown on this forum how he neck turns in a lathe. You can go to Mike Bryant's website and see how he does it in a lathe. I turn mine in a lathe with a collet, but use a Pumpkin neck turning tool. If I were cutting them with a lathe, I sure wouldn't use a collet.

Hi Butch

My question is, how many cuts do you make on the brass with the Pumpkin?

Later
Dave

Butch Lambert
01-30-2014, 02:55 PM
Dave,
I'm lazy. I do it in one cut.

JerrySharrett
01-30-2014, 03:12 PM
I will continue to turn mine as I now do it. I believe Jackie and Mike turn a spud in the chuck? collett?, and then press the brass on the spud. I think Mike uses a shell holder in the tailstock. He uses that to press the brass on to the spud and does his turning. The shell holder is used to pull the brass off the spud. The spud is a throwaway as you need to turn one each neck turning session.

I've already told him to contact Jackie since Jackie has a P&W almost like the one Jim just bought.

A case mounted on a preturned stub arbor. Make the arbor in 3 steps, the first step is about 0.238: X 1/4" long and used to guide the case onto the arbor. The second diameter is cut to exactly the diameter of your bullet (usually 0.2435 x 1/4" long. Making this fit this size assures that what size you turn the neck, the loaded round is exactly that diameter. The third diameter (the one nearest the chuck) is just for tool over run, about 0.260 x 1/4" long.
(Oh, that ugly looking threaded part is where I made this arbor out of an old Grade-8 bolt)

http://i59.tinypic.com/wcfxuw.jpg

This is a tool used with the tailstock to press the brass on the arbor and it has a slide-hammer to pull the brass off. The blue thing is a K&M brass holder.

http://i62.tinypic.com/1zduijm.jpg

This is the turning operation, The 0.0001" dial indicator measures the actual movement of the turning tool since most lathe dials are in 0.001" divisions.

Vhttp://i58.tinypic.com/2lnz58p.jpg

BUT-we have tried this on a H 10 and a 10EE and still get better results with a hand held turner-roughing with a Sinclair and finishing with a K&M, Punpkin or Stiller.

Jim Cox
01-31-2014, 07:16 PM
Well, got the lathe into my garage…3 feet from being set and in the door, a pipe crushed and it high centered, tilted, and crashed into the concrete. Lathe is scrap metal, hit the carriage so hard it popped off the ways, carriage handwheel shattered, cross slide handwheel is now at a 45º angle to the bed. Thanks to everyone that gave me help and advice, it's much appreciated. Looks like I'm going to be using my Versa Vise and JACO for the foreseeable future to turn necks.

Jim

JerrySharrett
01-31-2014, 07:59 PM
If the carriage/crossslide popped off it sounds like the carriage was not strapped down by its bottom rails.

Did it bend the feed and control rods that run front to back?

A lathe of that size can not be hurt too bad. Post a couple fo pictures.

Jim Cox
01-31-2014, 08:13 PM
14495
14496
14497
14499
14498
14500

JerrySharrett
01-31-2014, 08:28 PM
Looks like the carriage and cross slide are still in place. Just a couple of bent shafts, the cross slide shaft and carriage shaft.
If none of the major castings are broke, you can find replaccement shafts for the other.

Oh, and 10 bags of kitty-litter.

JerrySharrett
01-31-2014, 08:31 PM
On second look the carriage shaft may not be bent, just the handwheel broke.

This shows an important reason to wear safety shoes when millrighting!!

JerrySharrett
01-31-2014, 08:33 PM
Yep, the spindle clutch handle is broken too but that one can be brased.

Jim Cox
01-31-2014, 08:50 PM
So, is it scrap? Is it going to cost more than what it'd cost me to get another one to repair it?

JerrySharrett
01-31-2014, 09:07 PM
So, is it scrap? Is it going to cost more than what it'd cost me to get another one to repair it?

Get it uprught then reevaluate. I'm guessing from what I can see so far about $300-600 in used parts. That guy is old American iron, you can't kill it!!

JerrySharrett
01-31-2014, 09:10 PM
The carriage shaft may not even be damaged. The cross slide shaft??? could possibly be straightened. Hard to tell for sure on anything else from the pictures.

alinwa
01-31-2014, 09:17 PM
I'm with Jerry, get 'er up on 'er feet..... CAREFULLY!!!

A neighbor's loader tractor would be nice, let me say DO NOT try an engine hoist (cherry picker) nor a chainhoist lashup to your ceiling joists....IMO the tractor/bobcat/lift should be in the 45hp+ range.. Might crack your concrete drive or floor on the pick.

Was a guy on here couple yrs back tried to get his new gun safe down the stairs into the basement. He got 'er down, THROUGH the stairway....

al

Jim Cox
01-31-2014, 09:17 PM
I threw in the towel earlier, I'll call a wrecker tomorrow and get someone out here to get it upright and into place hopefully, and do some damage assessing. I know for a fact the cross slide handwheel is now on its own program, the casting it went into is fractured, but should be able to be brazed back into place.

alinwa
01-31-2014, 09:29 PM
Yes, a wrecker is a great choice!

Jim Cox
01-31-2014, 10:08 PM
I'm going to get one out here tomorrow, really hoping I didn't completely wreck it. Bad day friends, bad day.

alinwa
01-31-2014, 11:26 PM
Hey Jim...... take it from someone who just got a 3000.00 doctor bill for a stupid. ANY DAY that something tougher than you slips and nobody loses parts IS A GOOD DAY!!! :)

I didn't see any blood on the floor.....

al

Jim Cox
01-31-2014, 11:39 PM
No blood, and no injuries Al, today was a good day in that arena. I calmed down, drained a couple brews, and sat in the garage to stare at it for awhile. It looks like it's salvageable, the carriage handwheel is shattered, I'll have to have a replacement machined, as is the cross slide handwheel. The casting went all over the place, but I'll braze it up and paint it like any good welder knows to do. Nice and pretty. There are two gears for the cross slide that are just destroyed, broken teeth and bent. I'm assuming the gear attached to the carriage handwheel are done too. There's a couple of gear shops here in Houston, I'm going to get quotes to duplicate them, hoping it won't be obscene. I'm going to pull the saddle and apron when I get it upright again and check all the gears for damage, and pull the cover off the quick change and headstock to check for damage there.

Jim

Jim Cox
01-31-2014, 11:49 PM
Scratch that, just cut a finger on a beer can.

I will update tomorrow when I get a better idea of how extensive the damage is, if you need specific photos or can tell me what to look for, I am nothing but ears and gratitude. I'm determined to keep this piece of American history alive and well and back to making chips.

Thanks everyone, the encouragement was sorely needed and is greatly appreciated, this is truly the best place on the web.

Jim

alinwa
01-31-2014, 11:54 PM
..................Scratch that, just cut a finger on a beer can.



Jim

LOL!!

:)
al

alinwa
02-01-2014, 12:11 AM
The last wreck I had with something heavy was one of these

14503

unloading it from my 1Ton, down ramps, dead beat, got away from me and dropped/flipped/crashed over the edge......... just rounded off every corner and took all the projections off so it looked like a big dirty pumpkin (mine is orange, named Pigg) setting in a puddle of oil and cast parts

Took me months to get up enough energy to put it back together, repainted the name to FUGG.

The one before that was loading a machine onto the same 1Ton, this one went off the truck and over an embankment......

And the one before that....

And then there was the piano, and just before that we tipped a crane because the operator didn't know his pick rating....

Heavy stuff is scary.....

Hope that beercut heals clean :)
al

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 12:25 AM
The beer cut will be fine I assure you :)

I suppose if I had to learn a serious lesson, it's best to learn it early and with no resulting injuries. I saw it was about to go, and got out of there in a s*** hot hurry. Anyone reading that hasn't moved heavy stuff, DON'T TRY AND CATCH IT!!!! A machine is not worth your health, you can drink some beer and brood for awhile until you get stubborn and decide to not let the communists win and fix what broke.

I've got a friend in Phoenix that has a machine shop, he took pity on my unfortunate day and offered to make any replacement parts he could. The day is not lost it seems.

Cheers,

Jim

alinwa
02-01-2014, 03:01 AM
Good for you Jim..... I'm not making light of your misfortune in any way, it suuuckkssssss

but hey, it is what it is, and I just betcha' Jerry can help line you up with parts....

JerrySharrett
02-01-2014, 06:01 AM
No blood, and no injuries Al, today was a good day in that arena. I calmed down, drained a couple brews, and sat in the garage to stare at it for awhile. It looks like it's salvageable, the carriage handwheel is shattered, I'll have to have a replacement machined, as is the cross slide handwheel. The casting went all over the place, but I'll braze it up and paint it like any good welder knows to do. Nice and pretty. There are two gears for the cross slide that are just destroyed, broken teeth and bent. I'm assuming the gear attached to the carriage handwheel are done too. There's a couple of gear shops here in Houston, I'm going to get quotes to duplicate them, hoping it won't be obscene. I'm going to pull the saddle and apron when I get it upright again and check all the gears for damage, and pull the cover off the quick change and headstock to check for damage there.

Jim

Is Katy close to Houston? You really need to see Jackie Schmidt. He is in Houston and has a big machine shop and knows all about that P&W.

Edit- 30 miles according to mapquest...and I thought Texas was a big place?? call him Monday.

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 08:52 AM
Is Katy close to Houston? You really need to see Jackie Schmidt. He is in Houston and has a big machine shop and knows all about that P&W.

Edit- 30 miles according to mapquest...and I thought Texas was a big place?? call him Monday.

I'm just inside the city limits of Houston on the west side of town, I will make sure to give him a call on Monday.

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 12:15 PM
Okay, so got the wrecker out here and got the lathe upright again, and far enough into the garage to close the door. Whew.

Here's the score:

14504
14505
14506
14507
14508
14509

Continued in next post.

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 12:17 PM
…continued:

14510
14511
14512
14513
14514
14515

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 12:19 PM
…continued:

14516
14517
14518
14519
14520
14521

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 12:25 PM
The casting that holds the gearing for the cross slide pretty much shattered, I'm not sure if it's going to be reasonable or possible to try and braze it back together. I'm going to pull off the cover and remove the rest of it later. The carriage handwheel (at least the part of it still attached to the carriage) still functions surprisingly, it's rough, and I suspect the gears to be a little chewed up, but that was a pleasant surprise. Not surprising, the cross slide is not budging with the gearing in the condition it is. I tapped the exposed part of the gear to relieve the pressure on it and get it out of the crater in the casting. The gear selector lever knob sheared off, and is going to have to be replaced, no question about that. Thankfully it sheared without doing any damage to the lever itself or the gearing. From what I can see, I don't think it actually bent the leadscrew or any of the guide rods. I'm probably wrong, if anyone sees something I'm missing please tell me so I can get to work finding a replacement after I get done screaming at a tree for awhile.

All told, from my limited experience with large machines, I think it's salvageable. Try that with a Grizzly folks. Actually, don't, that wouldn't be very enjoyable for anyone.

Jim

JerrySharrett
02-01-2014, 01:19 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what that gear is on the cross feed shaft?? Did that shattered oblong housing come off that? There is a rod running across the lathe parallel to the cross slide that has something to do with that gear...a rapid traverse on the cross slide?? ?? ??? Donno?? Probably drives the cross feed, but that shaft beside it?????

The long rods running parallel to the bedway casting, one is for the spindle clutch, one is to drive the feed mechanism for the long and cross axis, the one with the acme thread is for threading. They look fine from the pictures.

It still doesn't look fatal by any means.

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 01:25 PM
The gear on the cross feed shaft looks like a spud gear that drives the cross feed itself, the rod on the headstock side of it appears to be nothing more than a tracking rod, it isn't load bearing and it has play in it. The shattered oblong casting came off of the cross feed shaft, you can see where the casting sheared off in the picture with the spud gear stuck up in the air like a flag. The rest of the casting is bolted on with allen head bolts, I need to get a long driver and some allen bits later and a ratchet, then I'll pull it off and see if the cross feed shaft is boogered or still okay. I get the feeling that the spud gear just fractured and hopefully that saved the cross feed shaft from damage. I'll post pictures of it when I get the covers off the cross feed and the carriage handwheel, hopefully I won't have to pull the apron and saddle, that would be ideal.

JerrySharrett
02-01-2014, 01:30 PM
After looking at picture 3 pn this lathe http://www.nrmachinesales.com/lathes/l300062.htm it apparently drives the cross axis power feed or rapid traverse. Kind of a non-traditional was of doing that (having the drive mechanism outside the apron housing...its gotta' be for a rapid traverse???? I say again-dunno??? If it is just for the cross slide traverse you can sure live without that feature.

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 01:44 PM
I sent Jackie a PM, and I'll call his shop on Monday if I don't hear from him by then, I'm sure he's a busy man.

This is going to be an enlightening adventure to get this lathe back to where it was this time yesterday, and even more so to update it. The way I'm figuring it, I need to find any damaged components in the entire lathe while I'm making repairs, and just go ahead and do an overhaul while I'm in there.

Jim

Hal
02-01-2014, 11:15 PM
Jim unless you get a parts lathe give to you, you'll likely end up with more money in the lathe than it's worth and you still won't have a tailstock. When a machine is 50-70 years old its had to find parts that aren't wore out.

It might be cheaper to find a South Bend heavy 10.

I wish you the best of luck.

Hal

Jim Cox
02-01-2014, 11:45 PM
Hal,

The plan for the tailstock as of right now is to machine a base plate to mount a tailstock to, pretty much any quality one I can find that's close enough to center to work with, and set it to the base plate by machining the base plate too tall and lowering it with a fly cutter to get exact dead center.

The thing I'm brainstorming right now is brazing the shattered casting back together, I'll probably have to fill the casting where voids are sure to be since it went all over the place. I may be able to replace it with a machined part, won't be as elegant and pretty but as long as I can make something work I'll be happy.

I'm pretty determined to fix it, can't let operator error scrap a piece of history.

Jim

alinwa
02-02-2014, 12:01 AM
Holy 4000 views dude! Whatever/whichever the world is watching
al

JerrySharrett
02-02-2014, 06:24 AM
Hal,

I'm pretty determined to fix it, can't let operator error scrap a piece of history.

Jim

Jim, as you know, in the military we called that "field expediency", right!!!

Jim Cox
02-02-2014, 12:03 PM
You've got that right Jerry!

I've been examining the shattered casting, I'm going to have to machine a new one. Hopefully a guy I know can write a g code for it and run one out in the Haas he uses at work.

Jim

JerrySharrett
02-02-2014, 03:49 PM
You've got that right Jerry!

I've been examining the shattered casting, I'm going to have to machine a new one. Hopefully a guy I know can write a g code for it and run one out in the Haas he uses at work.

Jim

G-code programming, I used to do a lot of that but not on a Haas. These were big machines like Giddings & Lewis floor type HBM's, 12' x 12' x 7' and 85hp.

Jim Cox
02-03-2014, 01:06 PM
Upon further inspection, the cross feed shaft is destroyed. I'm going to have to cut it just to remove it from the apron. I get the feeling it's going to be expensive to have a new one made.

The carriage handwheel spur gear is heavily worn, but appears to be undamaged by the fall. It's useable, but I'm going to replace it. The gear that it engages is actually beautiful, completely undamaged. Covered in gunk and 70 years of sludge, but underneath that it's beautifully machined and totally intact. Which is encouraging.

The cross feed handwheel casting might be salvageable, I'm going to try and braze it.

I'll put up pictures when the computer starts working again.

JerrySharrett
02-03-2014, 05:04 PM
Have you figured out what that oblong casting and handle does? .



If the cross feed shaft is not bent between the bearings you can weld a new end on it



Edit= go down to post #6 and open the Operators PDF, then to P18. It must be for a cross slide traverse.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-manuals-brochures/pratt-whitney-model-c-lathe-manuals-131288/

Jim Cox
02-03-2014, 05:23 PM
That casting has a lever that locks down the handwheel, almost like a redundant brake to aid the one on the saddle. I got the cross feed shaft out with a cut right in the angle created by the fall, and now that you mention it I think it would work to weld it back up, the rest of it is straight. The gear that slips over it into the broaches is beyond saving though. That one will have to be replaced. The good news is that the ways are still pretty, and the cross slide is nice and smooth. Getting all the gunk out of it as we speak.

I tried calling Jackie's shop a minute ago, didn't get an answer. I'll try again in the morning.

JerrySharrett
02-03-2014, 06:58 PM
That casting has a lever that locks down the handwheel, almost like a redundant brake to aid the one on the saddle. I



I tried calling Jackie's shop a minute ago, didn't get an answer. I'll try again in the morning.

After looking at the parts manual I would guess it is a cross slide lock used in threading...pretty complicated mechanism for that chore. Engaging that lever would stop the cross slide in a certain place for each threading pass.

Feeding the tool into the thread for each subsequent pass would be done using the compound. At the end of each pass the cross slide would then be used to back the tool away from the workpiece, the carriage traversed back to the beginning and the cross feed dial would then be moved back in to be stopped where that mechanism has its stop set.

If that is in fact what that is for, you can use the lathe and thread without it even being on there. But there will be a parts machine somewhere if you look long enough.

Jim Cox
02-03-2014, 07:22 PM
I've got time, I'll keep scrounging around and hopefully I get lucky and stumble upon a parts machine with a tailstock too! I've been looking around, and methinks it's going to be a long road to get this machine back in the groove. In the meantime, I've scrubbed the cross slide clean of gunk, and next I'm going to strip the compound down and give it a good cleaning.

Thankfully the gear that the carriage handwheel engages is still looking great under all the gunk.
14531

Unfortunately, here's the gear that's on the handwheel shaft…
14532

The cross feed ways…
14533
14534

Here's what the gear inside that casting looks like…
14535

At the end of the day, here's a nice little surprise…
14536

12" Bison 3 jaw. Would've been nicer to have a 4 or 6 jaw, but I'm pleased that it at least has a high quality chuck.

Pics of the cross feed shaft in the next post.

Jim Cox
02-03-2014, 07:29 PM
The cross feed shaft is straight in between the bearings, here's a picture of the broached end…
14537

The part of it I had to cut off to remove it from the machine is a little more mangled, and it'd take some serious doing to repair it enough to weld on. Whatever steel they used to make it, it is one SERIOUSLY tough piece. Not super hard, it cut easily enough, but it absorbed the entire impact of the machine and didn't break.
14538

Here's the gear that slipped over the broached end of the cross feed shaft, it's completely wrecked, no salvaging it. In fact, I'll be doing good to get accurate measurements off it to find a replacement.
14539

This brass bushing was over the gear…
14540

Last but not least, the engagement nut for the cross feed shaft's threaded section, a big hunk of brass…
14541


All in all, nothing completely unfixable. The ways are still in good shape for not being hardened and ground, and don't show any excessive wear. The cross feed has wedges to take the slop out of the ways as they wear, a thoughtful addition from a brilliant engineer. I'm diving into the compound tomorrow, after some manual studying to figure out how it comes apart so I don't booger anything else up.

Cheers,

Jim

JerrySharrett
02-03-2014, 07:40 PM
. The cross feed has wedges to take the slop out of the ways as they wear, a thoughtful addition from a brilliant engineer.

Cheers,

Jim

Those little "wedges" are called gibs. Quality machine tools have them on all moving slides.

Great learning experience isn't it?

Jim Cox
02-03-2014, 07:49 PM
NOW that makes sense! I kept seeing that word but it wasn't clicking. Definitely an invaluable learning experience, it's actually been enjoyable tearing into it and learning hands-on how it all works together.

ncnbrsa
02-20-2014, 03:46 PM
I never said or implied they aren't worthy of my consideration, I've considered all of them and they each have features that don't appeal to me. Someone else's results are not mine, good for them, but I'm not trying to copy recipes here. I have an aversion to aluminum tools, it's a mental thing. I just far prefer steel, and more so I like to have measured and repeatable control over adjustments, regardless of the complexity of the operation.

I have had a hart for over 15 years and they work good. I did replace the arbor with a carbide one. The main thing is to size the brass properly before turning.
Good luck with wichever you choose.
Ron