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reelxprs
12-11-2013, 08:01 PM
I am about to receive 9 boxes of different lots of tenex ammo. My test day weather is 52 degrees and very light winds. My question is am I wasting my time being it is so cold and I usually shoot
in warmer weather as I live on the SE coast of NC ? I recently shot at the Rocky River Barn and what worked great here was junk in the Barn or is this just the Barn?
Thanks
Jeff Fountain

MIKECAMERON
12-11-2013, 09:27 PM
inside is just different than outside. The best ammo I have ever gotten I tested in January then shot it all year the next year, it shot good in august as well as January.

Bill B
12-12-2013, 10:06 AM
We up here in the NE would love to be able to test ammo in Dec. at temps in the 50s. You should be all right. I can also attest to the fact that ammo that'll work outside may not shoot well inside. One of the reasons I will likely never shoot at an inside match again.

Pete Wass
12-13-2013, 11:26 AM
When I got back into Rimfire Benchrst, I went to the Barn in December for one of the matches. Dan was there with ammo so I began testing ammo for two rifles. I found ammo that shot good in both rifles, both had branny new barrels. That ammo worked the very best outside the next summer. Since then, I have been testing inside and have found that what shoots well inside shoots well outside, so far, if one knows what to look for. I have lately been thinking that we are fighting Air Density with regard to the speed of the ammo. That is why what works well heavy air doesn't in light air.

Bill B
12-13-2013, 06:41 PM
When I shot at Piney Hill early this year, I was told by some of the veterans there that they test and select ammo specifically for inside and that some ammo that will shoot well outside won't shoot well inside. I went there with ammo that I had success with outside and I couldn't do much with it in that place. Since I don't shoot indoors much, I'm not going to be looking for stuff that likes the indoors. I like the outside where the wind blows free and the air is nice, and clean and healthy.

Pete Roberson
12-13-2013, 07:28 PM
When I first started this game I had the oportunity to shoot and test indoors with a friend
who got me into this sport.
We found some ammo that shot five shot one hole groups out of both our guns so we bought
a case and couldn't wait for the summer season but needless to say, outdoors in the wind it wouldn't
hit the broad side of a barn, never again!!
Pete

MIKECAMERON
12-13-2013, 08:52 PM
When I first started this game I had the oportunity to shoot and test indoors with a friend
who got me into this sport.
We found some ammo that shot five shot one hole groups out of both our guns so we bought
a case and couldn't wait for the summer season but needless to say, outdoors in the wind it wouldn't
hit the broad side of a barn, never again!!
Pete

Yeah Pete that is pretty much the way it is, if you find something that will shoot in and out it is great ammo but in my experience most of the time if it shoots good inside it wont shoot outside and vice versa I don't really know why but I have had ammo that is championship capable ammo outside that shot like a shotgun inside and vice versa, now with my rifle there is a tune difference between in and out also.

Mike Cameron

center22
12-13-2013, 11:48 PM
Yeah Pete that is pretty much the way it is, if you find something that will shoot in and out it is great ammo but in my experience most of the time if it shoots good inside it wont shoot outside and vice versa I don't really know why but I have had ammo that is championship capable ammo outside that shot like a shotgun inside and vice versa, now with my rifle there is a tune difference between in and out also. Mike Cameron

Mike, congratulations on the outstanding win at the Barn. If I wasn't there in person, (setup opposite from you) I would have had difficulty believing it! A Suhl action, a five year old Broughton 5C barrel with many cases of ammo through it, shooting Lapua Center-X ammo and you won the ARA Nationals against the very best in RFBR ... remarkable!

"now with my rifle there is a tune difference between in and out also."

I find the above quote in bold very interesting. I had never shot indoors, prior to this match at the Barn. So all tuning and testing of ammo for my two rifles was done outdoors in south Florida. I had four reasonably competitive lots of ammo at the Barn, three Match and one Tenex. Of the four, I elected to use the Tenex after the first card. Both of rifles were shooting like they were somewhat out of tune, so your "setting difference" hits home. I am aware that you have a von Ahrens tuner on the 5C and it is different from a Harrell tuner, but could you give us an idea of how much of a change is needed between indoors and outdoors on your rifle? Also, thanks for answering my many questions on your cleaning regiment. John

Pete Wass
12-14-2013, 07:03 AM
When I first started this game I had the oportunity to shoot and test indoors with a friend
who got me into this sport.
We found some ammo that shot five shot one hole groups out of both our guns so we bought
a case and couldn't wait for the summer season but needless to say, outdoors in the wind it wouldn't
hit the broad side of a barn, never again!!
Pete

and none of the ammo I had shot predictably in there. Paul Bendix was there and let me try some Tenex he had and I thought it shot better than mine but it was only one point and a few exes better. I even tried ammo that a vender there had and it shot worse than the ammo I had brought with me. Indoors in the bigger facilities is different than small ones, from my experience. I am going to put some effort into trying to find out why. Paul shot some good cards with that ammo but early in the day, it wasn't that good. The ammo "Came to Him" as they say in racing (: .

Regarding the wind and outside; I think one can see that difference when testing inside in the venues I test in. I think the dispersion of shots when fired singularly on a target, then measured, tells one rather or not the ammo will work outside. If the bullets wander much at all, they will wander more in the wind. From my experience, the ammo that does not show any vertical dispersion and very little laterally, that ammo will work in the wind in the same way. I don't think shooting groups inside tells one much most of the time unless the groups all measure .223. Reduce a target to the venue size and shoot it the same way one does in a match. You'll see the good, the bad and the ugly right away. That has worked for me.

Of note also is most often when I order test lots, by the time I find what shoots best inside, those lots are GONE by the time I am able to order after testing. That sort of tells me that I am not that far afield.

tim
12-15-2013, 12:58 PM
I think you're 2 or 3 fields over Pete.

Pete Wass
12-15-2013, 08:44 PM
I think you're 2 or 3 fields over Pete.



Surely you can do better. :p

MIKECAMERON
12-17-2013, 02:44 PM
Mike, congratulations on the outstanding win at the Barn. If I wasn't there in person, (setup opposite from you) I would have had difficulty believing it! A Suhl action, a five year old Broughton 5C barrel with many cases of ammo through it, shooting Lapua Center-X ammo and you won the ARA Nationals against the very best in RFBR ... remarkable!

"now with my rifle there is a tune difference between in and out also."

I find the above quote in bold very interesting. I had never shot indoors, prior to this match at the Barn. So all tuning and testing of ammo for my two rifles was done outdoors in south Florida. I had four reasonably competitive lots of ammo at the Barn, three Match and one Tenex. Of the four, I elected to use the Tenex after the first card. Both of rifles were shooting like they were somewhat out of tune, so your "setting difference" hits home. I am aware that you have a von Ahrens tuner on the 5C and it is different from a Harrell tuner, but could you give us an idea of how much of a change is needed between indoors and outdoors on your rifle? Also, thanks for answering my many questions on your cleaning regiment. John

John the difference between inside and outside is generally one full turn on the focus ring of my tuner, now that is really a minute adjustment considering the focus ring is a half ounce and the threads are very fine but it takes that adjustment to get the tune in the barn for me.

Mike Cameron

P.S. that is something you just cant do with a harrels tuner.

Pete Roberson
12-17-2013, 02:53 PM
John the difference between inside and outside is generally one full turn on the focus ring of my tuner, now that is really a minute adjustment considering the focus ring is a half ounce and the threads are very fine but it takes that adjustment to get the tune in the barn for me.

Mike Cameron

P.S. that is something you just cant do with a harrels tuner.

Mike,
What type tuner do you use?
Thanks!
Pete

center22
12-17-2013, 05:14 PM
John the difference between inside and outside is generally one full turn on the focus ring of my tuner, now that is really a minute adjustment considering the focus ring is a half ounce and the threads are very fine but it takes that adjustment to get the tune in the barn for me.

Mike Cameron

P.S. that is something you just cant do with a harrels tuner.

Mike, thanks for the reply. I tried ordering a von Ahrens tuner from Killough when I got back home, but they were out of stock. So I ordered a stainless steel weight set for the Harrell, which will allow for one half ounce increments. plus a bloop tube. Since I have an extra Harrell tuner, I will turn one down on my lathe to lighten it up about two ounces. My thoughts are to cut the bloop tube to around 4 inches (similar the von Ahrens) and set the Harrell tuner at around "50" when I begin adding the weight(s) in small increments for a best possible tune. If I hit on a decent tuner setting at the "50" mark with just weight being added, I will then have leverage to rotate the Harrell tuner adjustments up to two revolutions in (back) to fine tune for indoors, if that what it takes. Not sure if this plan will work, but I'll give it a try until I can get my hands on a actual von Ahrens tuner. Thanks again for responding to my question. John

Fred J
12-17-2013, 05:23 PM
Someone needs to start making these extra weight lighter.