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ColColt
12-08-2013, 04:02 PM
After getting my first Sako in 222 I sized all new cases and thereafter used a neck sizer only. I'm on my third reload of neck sizing and was curious how many more times neck sizing before I have to full length resize again. I use Lapua brass and so far as of the last firing they all fed good.

Boyd Allen
12-08-2013, 04:11 PM
If you are shooting a relatively mild load, you may neck size for a few firings before being forced to FL size, but you should keep in mind that cases do not get tight on the same firing, even when from the same lot, fired the same number of times, with the same load. Another thing worth considering is that if you shoot a group in which some of the rounds chambered differently than others, the group is likely to be larger than it would have been if they all chambered the same. So...if you must neck size, I would figure out the maximum number of firings that you can get with consistent bolt close for all rounds, and use that as your guide.

Some time ago, the only bench rifle that I had was a tight necked .222 that I was loading for with a fitted set of Wilson dies. At some point I was forced to FL size, and dreaded this because I was sure that the rifle's accuracy would suffer. I was wrong. After carefully FL sizing my brass, making sure of my shoulder bump, the groups improved from what I had been getting. Of course with the thinner necks there was not any problem from too much expander ball pull making cases crooked. In fact I may have had to run them through my Wilson neck die to tighten them up to the neck tension that I wanted.

kdvarmint
12-08-2013, 05:22 PM
Get one of these http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/categories/reloading-dies be the same every time with limited sizing. And make the neck exactly what you want without the trouble making expander ball.

ColColt
12-08-2013, 05:30 PM
Last time I had about three out of thirty cases that were a bit difficult to get chambered. They made it from the magazine to the chamber but the bolt would not close easily...full length time already? This was their third time being neck sized only.

Harrell's must really like their dies at $75 for a size die.

SGS
12-08-2013, 05:45 PM
Last time I had about three out of thirty cases that were a bit difficult to get chambered. They made it from the magazine to the chamber but the bolt would not close easily...full length time already? This was their third time being neck sized only.

Harrell's must really like their dies at $75 for a size die.

Yes. ANY resistance to the bolt closing due to un-sized cases will negatively affect accuracy. Lynwood Harrel's die is a bargain at $75. Unfortunately, he does not make one for the .222.

ColColt
12-08-2013, 05:52 PM
It appears I need to go back to full length sizing on the next reloads. Shame, I thought I could go on for 5-7 without that.

alinwa
12-08-2013, 06:00 PM
.........Harrell's must really like their dies at $75 for a size die.

HUHH???

That's DIRT!

They're 1/3 price their competition, 1/10 the price of one of their competitors..... there is NOTHING in their price range. Nothing remotely close.... In fact the last die set I had made by Hornady was over 200.00 and it isn't held to the standards of the Harrells.

Good grief, use factory dies and be happy believing "It'll work all day, if I do my part!"

This ain't the 'Grunting About Ye Jollie Rock Chuting and Chawing and Make-It-Go-Bang Forum.' This is an accuracy forum.

al

ColColt
12-08-2013, 06:24 PM
You may know all there is to know about expensive dies but I don't...give me a break! I've never had anything but RCBS or Lyman dies.

Boyd Allen
12-08-2013, 06:37 PM
I don't think that Harrell's makes .222 dies. If you want to go with your cheapest option that should not mess anything up, see if Redding makes a body die to use in conjunction with your Wilson neck die. Personally, I would go with either a bushing FL die, or a Forster one piece FL die, and have them hone out the neck for a modest charge.

Greyfox
12-08-2013, 07:28 PM
You may know all there is to know about expensive dies but I don't...give me a break! I've never had anything but RCBS or Lyman dies.

One option that hasn't been mentioned might save you a few $$ and will be no more work than you do currently. Send your full length die to Jim Carstensen (JLC Precision) and have him make it into a bushing die. It's been a couple of years since I had this done last and it was around $50 including postage. Learn to bump the shoulder .001 on each firing and you should have what you want.

Rick

Don
12-08-2013, 09:13 PM
Last time I had about three out of thirty cases that were a bit difficult to get chambered. They made it from the magazine to the chamber but the bolt would not close easily...full length time already? This was their third time being neck sized only.

Harrell's must really like their dies at $75 for a size die.

If you are looking for value and precision full length sizing, order a Wilson full length sizer.........not as fast to use as a high end threaded full length resizer but as or more precise and less dollars, may have to order directly from Wilson as many distributors do not carries these in stock.

rwnoel
12-08-2013, 09:39 PM
What's the criteria used to decide one needs to full length size?

I'm using a wilson gage to check length and size after neck-sizing (.223 rem, .303 savage, and .308win). So far, I have some lots with more than 10 reloads without full length sizing. No problems chambering any of them.

Boyd Allen
12-08-2013, 10:21 PM
The criterion is bolt feel. If they are not too snug , then you don't need to. If you get that many reloads without FL sizing, and your bolts are not tight, your loads are mild, but that's OK, as long as they get the job done that you want them to.

Charles E
12-08-2013, 10:57 PM
http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Fitted_Necks

If you're new, before ya'll go say "Oh, he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's not a benchrest shooter," go look at the topics he does cover, & remember Varmit Al does post to BR Central. When it comes to tuners, we even solicit his analyses. He does know what he's talking about, he's just going to stay with loads in the 52,000 psi (not cpu) region.

Yes, high pressure loads do tend to be a bit more accurate on some chamberings & barrels. So, if .020 counts, load 'em hot & up & size 'em down. Though back in the '90s, when AA 2015 BR was a different powder, I used a charge for the 6 PPC that was reasonably mild. 50 firing on a set of Lapua .220 Russian cases, never full length sized. Yes, this was formal competition. Even beat Wilbur a couple times with that setup (we'll just ignore all the times he beat me, that had nothing to do with powder charge...).

Boyd Allen
12-09-2013, 12:31 AM
Charles,
Back in the day, I used to see Gary Ocock load all weekend with a bushing neck sizing die, in a Lyman tong tool. What does that tell you about the pressure, and velocity of the loads that he was shooting? If I remember correctly, he cleaned with a brush and patches, between groups, using nothing but TEC. Looking at the HOF, I'd say it worked pretty well for him. BTW, I had a chance to shoot a little less than a pound of the 2015 that you mentioned. Neat stuff. It didn't seem to care much about neck tension, and it shot very well, so I bought 8#, not realizing that the source had changed. A friend got a very good deal, and it works very well for informal paper punching in his .22-250.

Boyd

alinwa
12-09-2013, 01:28 AM
You may know all there is to know about expensive dies but I don't...give me a break! I've never had anything but RCBS or Lyman dies.

I'm sorry, I was rude..... I felt you were picking on some seriously nice guys.

And I was wrong.

The Bros Harrell came up with a neat concept..... they have CNC tooling with which they make beaucoup parts, RUNS of parts, dozens or hundreds or thousands at a whack. The hard part is mapping the part, then, once they have a program in the mo'chine it can spit out parts posthaste, bingity-bingity-boom.

So here's what they did,

They said "you send us your brass, fired in your chamber, and we'll make a program and send you back a die....CHEAP..... but we keep the program for your chamber." Before long they had programs written for most of the common chambers out there so it was a matter of call the shop floor and "run 50 of the XX-X dies" or "we're running low on such-and-such."

Good dies, good price, good turnaround, good business.

So, long story short, they make a decently fitted die CHEAP and make it up in volume.... but, they only offer 6-8 different chamberings at any given time. Currently they are providing dies for the 220R case(6PPC and certain variants), the 6.5X47L case(typically 6x47L through 30X47L) and the 6BR variants. And sometimes, MAYBE the .308 case-based chamberings. And they'll hit your match, even if it takes two-three tries and if they can't they;ll write a program specifically for YOU.... (I've got 3-4 set up for ME that prolly no-one else buys because I'm weird)


But I'm not wittingly mean so, again, I'm Sorry For Climbing Your Tree.....

:)


al

ColColt
12-09-2013, 11:17 AM
I'm sorry, I was rude..... I felt you were picking on some seriously nice guys.


Don't give it a second thought. Far be it from me to pick on anyone purposely. I'm a total noob to this and as mentioned have only used the familiar RCBS/Lyman dies. Up until recently I thought that was all there was other than Lee or Redding. I knew nothing of competition dies or their cost but, I'm searching and learning. I was just curious is I had a problem with my dies/chamber and if full length resizing was going to occur sooner than I thought.

Actually, the cartridges chambered but the bolt handle would not close until I forced it. That was on the 3-4 cases I mentioned. In essence, the transition from magazine to chamber was not smooth. I haven't resized the last cases(35) fired from my last range visit and will FL a few and then neck size only a few to see if I'm indeed having a problem and will need to go to FL sizing after three reloads or whether it may have been just a fluke and if I just wasn't forceful enough initially in chambering those rounds.

Nevertheless, I still got a decent group that day but others weren't so good and I think I discovered why. The two stock screws, one for the recoil lug and the other the back screw was only 5-8 in/lbs and should have been something on the order of 30-35 in/lbs. We'll see next time.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/My%20Targets/_DEF4472a_zps771ed9b5.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/My%20Targets/_DEF4472a_zps771ed9b5.jpg.html)

Larry Elliott
12-09-2013, 07:27 PM
I've got a CZ .222 that isn't exactly a tack driver, but it much prefers FL sized cases to neck sized. I bump the shoulder back 0.001-0.002 which gives easy bolt closure, and the best accuracy I've gotten from the rifle thus far.

Some cases seem to be softer than others, and for competitive use that's not good. For live varmint shooting or casual paper punching they're okay, and I'd just set them aside for a trip through the FL die. After a trip or two through the FL die they may harden up some, or not. If they're enough of a nuisance there's always the junk brass box.

ColColt
12-09-2013, 07:38 PM
I neck sized ten cases this afternoon and thought I'd best try them before going any further. They dropped right in the chamber. I don't know what happened last time. Maybe the bolt just didn't pick the cartridge up properly for those few I had trouble with. All my 200 cases are Lapua Match cases and all but those 35 I've used are new. I may FL size five and neck size five and shoot the same bullet and powder to see if it really makes any difference in groups and chambering. I think not but we'll see. I believe group wise last time was still the stock screws not being torqued enough.

Charles E
12-09-2013, 11:42 PM
...I may FL size five and neck size five and shoot the same bullet and powder to see if it really makes any difference in groups and chambering. I think not but we'll see.

As far as the groups size testing goes, good thinking. Statistically not significant. People who shoot under laboratory conditions (i.e., more variables controlled) would use a minimum of five 5-shot groups, and even that isn't considered conclusive, by them. For yourself, do as you want, but please don't pass such info on as "proven." Pass it one for what it is, one five shot group.

Chism G
12-10-2013, 11:44 AM
FWIW......Went through my first year of Competition without a FL sizer. Used a modified Wilson bushing neck sizer. Don't remember having an unusually hard bolt lift problem. Lapua brass,.262nk,66gr FB fowlers, 27.5-28grs of 1994 VT133. Shot some impressive aggs ,for a beginner.



Glenn

Dick Grosbier
12-14-2013, 08:37 PM
Get one of these http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/categories/reloading-dies be the same every time with limited sizing. And make the neck exactly what you want without the trouble making expander ball.
I love the their products but I do not believe Harrels does .222 dies, They do PPC, and BR and a couple of variants. They do not advertise anything in the .222 family.