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Boyd Allen
12-06-2013, 01:10 PM
Like many of you, I have always obsessed about seating my bullets straight, and I will not discontinue this practice, but a recent experience has put this pursuit is its proper perspective.

A fiend gave me a take off 6PPC barrel that is probably a Bartlein or Krieger four groove, that while the end of its life, evidently has some good groups left in it. After adjusting the thread diameter a few thousandths, I installed it on my Viper bench rifle, and took it to the range with my loading kit. After firing my first tests, I used my regular FL die, an out of production Harrell Vari-Base, that is not designed to change the shoulder diameter of fired cases, to size the brass, primed the cases, measured the powder and started to seat my first bullet. The case would not insert fully into the seater. Trying another seater, I found the same problem. After some head scratching, I discovered that the chamber is about .005 larger than standard for a 6PPC. Luckily I had a Hornady one piece die with me, so I finished my testing using it. Later, I thought about what sizing down shoulders that much might do to the life of my brass, and decided to see if I had a different seater that would work. As it happens I do. It came to me as part of a writing assignment, and for that reason I will not reveal its maker, since they are a an excellent company, with this one bad design. The seater produced the most erratic and large loaded round runout that I have ever seen, up to .006....but it would work with the oversized brass from this barrel, and since I am seating .003 short of jam, (and the throat was long) and thought that the rounds might straighten in the chamber, I decided to give it a try. It is a good thing that I did. I have shot more high zero, and low one three shot tests with that barrel than any that I have tried before. I have not even put a round that has been chambered on my gauge. What would be the point? All the information that I need is right there on the target.

Lee Martin
12-06-2013, 01:25 PM
Interesting report Boyd. Sometimes everything that should add-up to disaster works. I drag race as a hobby and years ago a guy brought an old Chevy II to the track. The motor sounded tired, the suspension was all wrong, and the third member whined like it was about to grenade. We all laughed until they posted his ET on the scoreboard.

It's rare that being "out" or "off" will yield results but it does happen (maybe the stars align, maybe it's luck). Anyways, thanks for sharing this.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

jim1K
12-06-2013, 03:13 PM
Boyd, That is why i quit chasing my tail, I you load with a bushing die and the part of the neck is not sized and your free bore diameter is .2435 or less when you chamber it how much can it be out a .ooo1? The gage to check them is not usually that close…… jim

goodgrouper
12-06-2013, 03:16 PM
Boyd, one of my bestest friends and BR shooting partner says, "The quickest way to derail someone's BR program back is to give them a speed trap (chronograph) and a run out gauge." It appears that your experience supports this quip. :)

Zedog (that's Zee-dog, Chris Mitchell)

I'd agree with your friend's assessment of the runout gauge, or at least to the degree of importance it tells us. But I'd totally disagree with him about the chronograph. It's an integral part of learning what temperature does to velocities and how that correlates to tune. It's sure helped me seperate truth from all the armchair theory that floats through this sport.

Boyd Allen
12-06-2013, 05:03 PM
I agree with the usefulness of a chronograph when used in that way, but too often I think that they are used to chase speed.

Years back, I saw a fellow shoot the largest number of zeros in a 100 yard agg. that I had ever seen shot. He was shooting a high round barrel that he said would only group at very low velocities and was shooting what Gary Ocock referred to as Spencer's boxcars (because of their unusually blunt ogives). Every so often when I start looking at a short range benchrest bullet's BC or or catch myself wandering off to a higher velocity node that I know will probably give me more problems, I remember that time and return to thinking about what gets the best results rather than looking for the highest numbers.

Joe Salt
12-06-2013, 05:10 PM
Boyd By any chance did you try putting a round in the chamber then take it back out without the bullet coming out, then try spinning it again, you will probably find the chamber straightens it out.

Joe Salt

Boyd Allen
12-06-2013, 05:58 PM
I had done this in the past, which is why I tried the seater. It came out with about .00015 on the bullet. BTW, I still favor as brass that is as straight as possible, and like seaters that put bullets in as straight as they can be, but for this application the latter was not needed.

jackie schmidt
12-06-2013, 09:16 PM
I am engaging in a little bit of Benchrest Heresy at this time myself.

Since I am not getting to shoot much competition right now, I have too much time to think about it;)

A while back, I was just checking a bunch of 220 Russian cases, and was amazed at how consistant they were.

So, I took a rail gun barrel that has been a decent performer, and made a fixture to allow me to run a .274 reamer in the neck portion of the chamber. I then machined a .271 bushing for my sizing die, and took it to the range.

All I did to the cases was blow them out to 6PPC, trim to length, and chamfer them. The loaded rounds with a Barts Boatail measure .271 at the neck.

At the range, I could not tell the difference in my regular .269. I even shot one ten shot group that was no bigger than a .150.

I also did a barrel up for my favorite LV, and the results were the same.

Several of my friends were there to witness this, and they were a tad dumbfounded.

Anyway, I will decide if I am going to switch over to this. Maybe I was just having a good day. But it sure gives you pause for thought.

Charles E
12-07-2013, 12:35 AM
Boyd, Go & re-read page 75-76 of Rifle Accuracy Facts, & remember the equation works the other way, too. Making one thing "bad" when everything else is "good" doesn't hurt that much.

I do believe, and I'm sure will get knocked for it, that a lot of the "must weigh powder charge to .02 grains," "must sort bullets to .0001 variance in bearing length," "must (or must not) anneal," etc., came about when someone got a very good barrel, started winning, paid more attention to their loading, and then somehow concluded it was all the attention they paid to reloading. Really, it was all just the good barrel. Take a poor to average barrel & see how much all this stuff helps. Take a hummer & skip it, and see how much it hurts.

DSM
12-07-2013, 12:55 AM
Jackie...you mentioned making a bushing for your sizer...what type of material did you use? I'd imagine they can be made out of oil or water hardening drill rod?

jackie schmidt
12-07-2013, 09:38 AM
Jackie...you mentioned making a bushing for your sizer...what type of material did you use? I'd imagine they can be made out of oil or water hardening drill rod?

Since this was just a temporary thing to see how it would shoot, I just chucked up a grade-8 bolt and made a .271 bushing out of it. Just bore it and polish to the finish size.They are .500 on the OD.

Heck, it sizes the case great, but I will call Bruno and order a .270 and .271 Redding later.

You could make them from drill rod, just polish out the ID after hardening..........Jackie

Joe Salt
12-07-2013, 09:59 AM
Charles I've seen this for 40 years, guys that do absolutely nothing special as far as reloading. But shoot lights out! Good Barrels and good bullets I say!

Joe Salt

jackie schmidt
12-07-2013, 10:53 AM
Joe, I have always said that this game is about barrels, bullets, and tuning. The rest is just window dressing.........jackie

Gene Beggs
12-07-2013, 05:26 PM
Since this was just a temporary thing to see how it would shoot, I just chucked up a grade-8 bolt and made a .271 bushing out of it. Just bore it and polish to the finish size.They are .500 on the OD.

Heck, it sizes the case great, but I will call Bruno and order a .270 and .271 Redding later.

You could make them from drill rod, just polish out the ID after hardening..........Jackie



Jackie, I have in stock, custom carbide bushings for the no-turn 6mm cartridges that have a loaded round diameter of .271 and a neck diameter of .274. That's exactly the setup I use in the no-turn 6 Beggs.

Like you, I have found no decrease in accuracy using no-turn chambers with the Lapua 220 Russian case. I'm one who sort of enjoys turning cases but that being said, it sure is nice to just pluck the new Lapua cases from the box, load 'em and shoot!

I do the same thing with the no-turn 220 Beggs which uses a .257 neck diameter. The loaded round measures .254. With the thicker neck walls, I have found that a carbide bushing .001 smaller than the loaded round diameter provides perfect neck tension.

BTW, if you haven't had the pleasure of using carbide bushings, you are in for a treat. They leave the nicest, burnished finish on the necks.

I'll look forward to hearing from you. It's nice to see you posting more lately. :)

E-mail me please at genebeggs@cableone.net and maybe we can work out a trade. :p

Later,

Gene Beggs

jackie schmidt
12-07-2013, 06:42 PM
Gene, I hope to be shooting some Matches next year, at the very least the ones at Tomball.

Work has not slowed down. We are back on 7 days a week for now, in the process of putting up a new building.

Next year looks to be just as busy as the last three.

I have been playing with my '67 Chevelle a lot, upgraded the drive drain last year, she is in the paint shop now getting a facelift. My next move is to install a ProCharger on the big 540 inch Rat.

You can't ever have enough horsepower.:D

shinny
12-08-2013, 10:03 AM
Like many of you, I have always obsessed about seating my bullets straight, and I will not discontinue this practice, but a recent experience has put this pursuit is its proper perspective.

A fiend gave me a take off 6PPC barrel that is probably a Bartlein or Krieger four groove, that while the end of its life, evidently has some good groups left in it. After adjusting the thread diameter a few thousandths, I installed it on my Viper bench rifle, and took it to the range with my loading kit. After firing my first tests, I used my regular FL die, an out of production Harrell Vari-Base, that is not designed to change the shoulder diameter of fired cases, to size the brass, primed the cases, measured the powder and started to seat my first bullet. The case would not insert fully into the seater. Trying another seater, I found the same problem. After some head scratching, I discovered that the chamber is about .005 larger than standard for a 6PPC. Luckily I had a Hornady one piece die with me, so I finished my testing using it. Later, I thought about what sizing down shoulders that much might do to the life of my brass, and decided to see if I had a different seater that would work. As it happens I do. It came to me as part of a writing assignment, and for that reason I will not reveal its maker, since they are a an excellent company, with this one bad design. The seater produced the most erratic and large loaded round runout that I have ever seen, up to .006....but it would work with the oversized brass from this barrel, and since I am seating .003 short of jam, (and the throat was long) and thought that the rounds might straighten in the chamber, I decided to give it a try. It is a good thing that I did. I have shot more high zero, and low one three shot tests with that barrel than any that I have tried before. I have not even put a round that has been chambered on my gauge. What would be the point? All the information that I need is right there on the target.

And imagine, some guy just convinced me how necessary a Concentricity Tool was.........Yeah, I bit and bought one......Should have talked with you first Boyd.....LOL:confused:

Boyd Allen
12-08-2013, 12:45 PM
I said in that particular case, where there was minimal bullet in neck, and bullets were seated well into the rifling. There are many other conditions where the experience that I recounted would not apply, for example, when bullets are being jumped. Also, I strongly believe that sized brass needs to be as straight as possible, and continue my longstanding efforts toward that goal. I guess I should admit that the title of my thread was designed to draw in readers to a discussion, and that I am only admitting to being wrong about one narrowly defined situation. IMO not having the tools to measure things is never a good idea. If your groups are as small as you want them to be, then obviously nothing needs checking. If they are not, then everything needs checking...and that may require a few tools.

dmoran65
12-08-2013, 03:21 PM
IMO not having the tools to measure things is never a good idea. If your groups are as small as you want them to be, then obviously nothing needs checking. If they are not, then everything needs checking...and that may require a few tools.

Excellent quote !.!.!

adamsgt
12-09-2013, 11:15 AM
Another saying that I used when I was in Project Management: "If you don't measure it, you can't control it"

Al Nyhus
12-10-2013, 07:35 PM
I have been playing with my '67 Chevelle a lot, upgraded the drive drain last year, she is in the paint shop now getting a facelift. My next move is to install a ProCharger on the big 540 inch Rat.

You can't ever have enough horsepower.:D

Jackie, my '93 Fox body has a 6 lb. Power Dyne unit. It's a bit ;) of a sleeper. Gives the 'ricers fits.....:cool: -Al

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/Mustang11192010008_01_zpsc0c7b5ef.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tenxal/media/Mustang11192010008_01_zpsc0c7b5ef.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/Mustang11192010019_00_zps4e775372.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tenxal/media/Mustang11192010019_00_zps4e775372.jpg.html)

Lee Martin
12-11-2013, 11:32 AM
A bit of a car tangent but here are mine:

'64 Chevy II (540 BBC on two stages):

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/64ChevyII_zps1abd9e59.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/64ChevyII_zps1abd9e59.jpg.html)

'71 Nova (turns 9's on motor):

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/Nova2010_zps9f928a6a.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/Nova2010_zps9f928a6a.jpg.html)

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Pete Wass
12-13-2013, 05:58 PM
Do you guys remember the old joke, what is the difference between Excess and Surplus? :)

Merry Christmas

Pete

Ron Hoehn
12-22-2013, 12:44 PM
Come on Coots, show em your 409!

Dave Coots
12-22-2013, 05:53 PM
Here it is Ron.:o My street driven car, weighs in a 4240# with a XXL driver......................:cool:

David Apple
12-22-2013, 07:57 PM
Neck tension the old fashioned way.....

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/My%20Cobra/75-80-1.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/My%20Cobra/75-80-1.jpg.html)

Lee Martin
12-23-2013, 08:12 PM
Wicked looking Cobra David. Was that shot taken at 75-80 Dragway?

-Lee
www.singleactions.cim

David Apple
12-23-2013, 09:37 PM
Wicked looking Cobra David. Was that shot taken at 75-80 Dragway?

-Lee
www.singleactions.cim

Yes, 75-80...off idle launch right before this happened....

jackie schmidt
12-27-2013, 10:22 PM
yes, 75-80...off idle launch right before this happened....

ouch!!!!

caroby
01-01-2014, 03:45 PM
Yes, 75-80...off idle launch right before this happened....

Holy torque BATMAN...! Beef up them axles too.....:eek: :o

cale

shinny
01-03-2014, 09:45 AM
http://www.fark.com/vidplayer/8068187

David Apple
01-03-2014, 11:28 AM
Holy torque BATMAN...! Beef up them axles too.....:eek: :o

cale

You mean these???
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/IMG-20110508-00015.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/IMG-20110508-00015.jpg.html)

Lee Martin
01-03-2014, 03:58 PM
I'm curious David....what's your Cobra turn in the 1/8 or 1/4?

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

David Apple
01-03-2014, 05:19 PM
Lee,
Never made a full on charge....no cage, suit, arm restraints...
Let off in 3rd and it did 12.2 with a 1.34 60'. It is basically a stock FE. 490 HP and 600 TQ.

Dave Coots
01-03-2014, 08:14 PM
Lee,
Never made a full on charge....no cage, suit, arm restraints...
Let off in 3rd and it did 12.2 with a 1.34 60'. It is basically a stock FE. 490 HP and 600 TQ.

What are you running for tires? Weight of car?

markharp
01-03-2014, 10:05 PM
David, you ruined my night. Sold my Cobra a few months ago. Major sellers remorse!

Mark

Lee Martin
01-03-2014, 11:55 PM
1.34 is quite a launch David....I'm impressed. My big-tire 4-link only hooks high 1.20's. Here's video of it leaving at Manassas:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CCBagUZwbk

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

David Apple
01-04-2014, 09:29 AM
What are you running for tires? Weight of car?

325 drag radials.....too much carnage to the XKE driveline. Now using Avons.
Car weighs 2200#.

Boyd Allen
01-04-2014, 09:35 AM
Sometimes people take exception when their thread goes off topic. In this case, quite the contrary. It has only gotten better. Carry on. The pictures and video are great, as is the topic. I have been following with interest.

David Apple
01-04-2014, 11:42 AM
For those that may take exception...please note the concrete benches in the background....


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/My%20Cobra/10-1-1.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/My%20Cobra/10-1-1.jpg.html)

Lee Martin
01-04-2014, 10:55 PM
What's the old saying. "If you're not breaking parts you're not trying to go faster". I know I went "broke" in Pro-Mod. For as expensive as bench rest can be it's a deal compared to drag racing.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

David Apple
01-05-2014, 02:41 PM
What's the old saying. "If you're not breaking parts you're not trying to go faster". I know I went "broke" in Pro-Mod. For as expensive as bench rest can be it's a deal compared to drag racing.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com


Getting divorced beats them all....COMBINED!!!!!!!!!!!

Wilbur
01-05-2014, 02:57 PM
Getting divorced beats them all....COMBINED!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know whether or not you meant that to be funny...but it is...and quite a bit funny at that!

David Apple
01-05-2014, 05:38 PM
I don't know whether or not you meant that to be funny...but it is...and quite a bit funny at that!


Yes, funny...sad and true.

alinwa
01-05-2014, 08:41 PM
That AC sure looks good w/no stripe!!! Did you build it?

al

David Apple
01-06-2014, 09:04 AM
That AC sure looks good w/no stripe!!! Did you build it?

al

Al,
yes it has stripes and yes...several times
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/2012-07-28_09-15-56_785.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/2012-07-28_09-15-56_785.jpg.html)


This was the day I bought it...after sitting for 18 years.....
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/My%20Cobra/ac19.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/My%20Cobra/ac19.jpg.html)

After it's first bath...
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/My%20Cobra/ac17.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/My%20Cobra/ac17.jpg.html)

then after
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/HundredDollarBills_zps33ed4955.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/HundredDollarBills_zps33ed4955.jpg.html)
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/Acckkkkk.gif (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/Acckkkkk.gif.html)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/2012-07-28_09-17-02_294.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/2012-07-28_09-17-02_294.jpg.html)

David Apple
01-06-2014, 11:58 AM
Ah yes. And in keeping with the benchrest theme of this site, you have the Dewey rods in the right foreground.


And please the powder stash on far wall

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/Copyofphone189_zps4985b473.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/Copyofphone189_zps4985b473.jpg.html)

Stay warm....

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r252/mdman352/phone094_zpse3d930bc.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/mdman352/media/phone094_zpse3d930bc.jpg.html)

alinwa
01-06-2014, 09:06 PM
Awww Jeepers..... you a hard workin' guy Mr Apple. Two of them no less..... Good on Ya!

I did a job a while back for the owner of the big carpet cleaning company, his garage was 10 bays and he had a dingy looking yellow AC in there with cracked paint and checked up whitewalls. Little bubbles in the chrome.....

I asked "really???"

"Yup, the only thing that's ever been changed is the oil!"

I gotta' work a liddle harder :) That's one "Ford" I wouldn't mind owning.

al

David Apple
01-07-2014, 06:40 AM
Al,
The blue one,"Lethal Weapon" stays in the corner where it belongs. 750 HP 545 cubic inch motor. It is NOT fun to drive.
DA

Lee Martin
01-07-2014, 10:04 AM
Who manufactured the body and chassis on the red Cobra David? Looks like a CSX 4000 Series but I could be wrong.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

David Apple
01-07-2014, 08:28 PM
Contemporary made the car. 4" round tube chassis. Mold from CSX3085.

jbhotrod
02-20-2014, 11:52 AM
Mr. Lee, you said you used to race in Pro Mod? May I ask what your setup was?

I aint got enough money to actually own one, but I cant get enough of the Outlaw 10.5 and Pro-Mod racing. X275 and Outlaw Drag Radial too. Theres nothing better than watching a good driver finesse a 2000 or 3000hp snarling beast of a door slammer down the track on small tires.

I fancy myself more of a turbo guy personally. Having ridden in a few slow turbo cars, theyre just so fun.

Turbo cars recently broke new ground lately for Outlaw Pro Mods(aka "Pro Extreme") with help from Proline Racing and the guru Steve Petty(if anyone can get the turbo cars to run with the outlaw screw Pro-Mods, its him):

http://youtu.be/n7i2nPVJx2c

And they have since gone even faster, 3.59@216mph in the 1/8:

http://www.prolineracing.net/latest-news/q80-racing-team-first-turbo-car-to-the-3-50-s


They can make `em run in the 1/4 too, 5.706@260mph:

http://youtu.be/V4jjWRIMrkw


So yeah, needless to say Im pretty proud of them, just when everybody thought and was saying the turbo cars would never catch up to the screw cars in Pro Extreme, the boys from the great state of Georgia made them eat their words!

Dont quote me on this, but I want to say for the Q80 car that theyre running twin 94mm Precision turbos, and on the El General car theyre running twin 88mm Precision Pro-Mod Gen. 2`s; like I said I could be wrong though because I believe SCSN is one of the races where they dont enforce the NHRA Pro-Mod rule of twin 88mm turbos maximum. As mentioned in the descriptions, both cars are running 481X`s, basically a BBC that has been heavily modified.