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alinwa
11-09-2013, 02:03 AM
I know that this is the wrong forum but mayhap someone can lead me.

I want to swage large 50cal bullets, like 850gr bullets with driving bands.

Can this be done?

thanks
al

geo.ulrich
11-09-2013, 07:19 AM
yes...George

alinwa
11-09-2013, 02:16 PM
I did. Castboolits is a frustrating endeavor at best :) they think I'm nutz BTW, doing something that's "never been done, before learning how to do it!"

I did get my mould built by one of the guys over there.

George, I'll get ahold of you

al

alinwa
11-09-2013, 04:27 PM
BTW, just to show.... this is what I found after two days of castboolit research

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199043-Swaging-Grooved-Plain-Alloy-Boolits

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?11985-Swaged-Grease-Groove-Bullets

This is absolutely NOT the sort of setup I'm looking for. I want to make better bullets than can be cast.

I also am not interested in rollers or imprinting methods done after the fact.

I will paper patch if necessary.


al

alinwa
11-09-2013, 05:09 PM
did you try CBA cast bullet assoc..i do consider them much worse than castboolits

yes

alinwa
11-09-2013, 05:11 PM
BTW, has anyone here ever fired soft lead bullets with no grooves? Why do lead bullets require grooves or paper or whatever while jacketed bullets don't??

al

alinwa
11-09-2013, 07:49 PM
simple metalurgy(sp)...one soft metal rubbing on one hard metal...friction, heat, metal failure of the softer metal.....

just like a copper bullet,,,,,but the lead may just keep giving and giving......

quality of the bbl, fit to the bbl, length of the bbl , lead hardness, velocity....

I don't buy this


A'tall


al

Boyd Allen
11-09-2013, 09:46 PM
Al,
I have spent some time casting and shooting rifle bullets. If you do not provide some sort of lubrication, you will rather quickly end up with a barrel full of lead fouling. If you want some background that might help you, find a book on percussion underhammer slug guns, the kind that used false muzzles, and paper cross patches lubricated with spermaceti oil. Practitioners of that kind of shooting, hammer swaged bullets of two different hardnesses of lead alloy. There is a book on the subject somewhere. I know because when I was in high school I checked it out of the Fresno County Library's main branch and read it cover to cover. Some time later, it disappeared. https://www.google.com/search?q=underhammer+slug+gun&newwindow=1&client=firefox-a&hs=fbM&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=OPN-UuGPAuO1igLVlYHABQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1120&bih=533

Boyd

K Hope
11-10-2013, 11:04 AM
BTW, has anyone here ever fired soft lead bullets with no grooves?

al



Al,

Years ago I shot my fatherís competition slug rifle, the bullet was a smooth no groove non- driving band bullet; a two alloy, two-piece cast bullet swaged together where the front part had a harder alloy than the back. If memory serves me right, it was a 50 cal. and shot very well.

Ken

R.DesJardin
11-10-2013, 06:58 PM
Swage a bullet then use a rotary groover for forming the lube grooves, the run them through a size die to make sure they are round.
Lead melts if it goes too fast down a barrel. That's why you see copper, and brass plated rim fire bullets to help with that, the lead colored bullets are usually coated with a wax type lube. Well at least that's how all the bullet mfg companies do it. They could be wrong I suppose.

R.DesJardin
11-11-2013, 08:53 PM
pretty silly statement...
copper melts if it goes too fast down a bbl....

lead alloy bullets have been shot with accuracy in excess of 2000 fps

al is saying somewhere around 1000fps with pure lead....i think he will have an issue at 1000 fps with pure lead.

but i am all for trying something new..so go for it.

Yep that's me the silly bullet engineer.
Funny how it's call leading with lead bullets and fowling with copper bullets, but I usually associated fowling with poor surface finish of the barrel. This of course could cause issues with lead bullets I suppose.
How fast do you have to shoot copper bullets to get them to melt? Must be over 4000fps for sure. You can use pillow stuffing to catch bullets without doing any destructive damage to them by the way. Does take a lot of it though 6-8ft long pile of it at 100yds.
Lube seems to be the key ingredient with lead bullets.

MRL
11-11-2013, 10:36 PM
Al
There was a guy Dan Theodore??(spelling) that was working with smooth sided cast bullets in the past. He posted on BPCR.net for a while not sure if he is there or not anymore. I think he was on the west coast somewhere. If you can find him he may be able to help. Gotta ask what are you gonna shoot this out of?

alinwa
11-12-2013, 01:08 AM
Al
There was a guy Dan Theodore??(spelling) that was working with smooth sided cast bullets in the past. He posted on BPCR.net for a while not sure if he is there or not anymore. I think he was on the west coast somewhere. If you can find him he may be able to help. Gotta ask what are you gonna shoot this out of?

I've got three case choices on hand at present, sod off 338 Lapua, sod off Jeffery case either WSM or RUM and various Sharps 50 rimmed. And three action choices in hand. Going for a subsonic hammer, something that will range a buffalo, quietly.

al

MRL
11-12-2013, 09:59 PM
Smokeless or blackpowder

alinwa
11-12-2013, 10:01 PM
smokeless

MRL
11-13-2013, 10:36 PM
Why do you think there is a downside to casting these bullets? 1000 fps+/- should be workable think an oversize 22lr, a wax type coating ?

alinwa
11-13-2013, 11:16 PM
Why do you think there is a downside to casting these bullets? 1000 fps+/- should be workable think an oversize 22lr, a wax type coating ?

Well, first of all, 22lr accuracy SUCKS! I will be sorely disappointed to spend several thousand dollars to find accuracy like a 22lr. If it really is about the lead bullets I'll be forced into jacketed slugs. On this note, I tried to enter my cobbled together 10-22 17MachII in rimfire competitons and was shown to the door. They're "not allowed." Every now and then I search The Dark Side, as well as the airgun board to find out if anyone can actually achieve 1/4MOA from either discipline, the accuracy requirement of my most rusticated centerfire, jacketed bullet firearms. No Joy. I personally know guys who spend tens of thousands of dollars to shoot rifles that are less accurate than an out of the box 30-06..... and while I don't know that swaging will actually offer an accuracy advantage it seems in my research that everyone who shoots even cast bullets to any level of accuracy swages them for consistency. Corbin's site speaks of tenths of thousandths consistency with swaged projectiles and the two other fellows with whom I've talked swaging seem to confirm that ONLY with swaging of some sort can one get consistent projectiles...... I've even had several people talk about "pre-casting" or casting bullets which are the dropped into as swaging device and finalized.

So that's why I _think_ there's a downside...... meantime I KNOW nothing. But as of last week I DO HAVE ALL THE PARTS to cobble up a working subsonic mule.

John S
11-14-2013, 10:51 AM
I believe your barrel configuration, number of groves and twist, will account for as much voodoo as the type of bullet.

Usually a person would pick a barrel that would be agreeable to the type of bullet; however you might be going in two directions at the same time.

Once you build the bullet you want, then trying different barrel configurations might be necessary.......and then there is the type of chamber.

I believe you will need to engage the lands hard and you might want to try to have the bullet fully supported in the chamber as you do this.

Some guys have spent a lifetime trying to shoot lead bullets accurately and they enjoy it.

I use to shoot silhouette rifle competition with Dan Theodore, a brilliant engineer for sure. If you could get in contact with him he might be more then willing to help. He liked going in different directions than most shooters.

Good luck.

ebb
11-14-2013, 11:01 PM
Could you get lead hard enough to lathe turn it? Would it have to be lead? Lathe turned copper or bronze would seem to be easier on the learning curve. Ive cast wheel weights and turned an insert for my barrel vice and I think with a little experimenting and some tool grinding it might be possible. My shooting and reloading mentor always steered me away from Barnes bullets, he tried them in the early days and they would copper up a bore fast. I would think they would be more forgiving at 1000fps. This sounds like a lot of fun to figure out if it can be done with out a whole lot of money being spent. I love a discovery project like this at work when its the bosses money. Good luck and keep us posted!!!!