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Charles E
10-14-2013, 06:41 PM
According to past performance data, get rid of the Republicans.

Every republican since 1980 has increased the national debt during their term in office; every Democrat has lowered it. Apparently Republicans spend just as much, but they avoid raising taxes by borrowing. Then, when payment comes due & they're out of office, they blame the other party. Cute, if you can get away with it.

Step one: Don't believe what they say, believe what they do.

Or are you the kind who ignores data? That is, you'd prefer to sacrifice a live chicken to the wind gods instead of using wind flags? (BTW, The debt chart is based on the Congressional Budget Office data, the Presidents chart from Wikipedia. You also have to stay away from extremist [either way] web sites)

Lawrence W.
10-14-2013, 06:57 PM
Your chart conveniently cuts of just before the tripling of debt by Obama!

ReedG
10-14-2013, 07:28 PM
Heard on the news that Obama's approval rating is now below 40%. Scares me to death that 40% still support him!

Joe Salt
10-14-2013, 07:30 PM
The Only Democrat I ever trusted was John F. Kennedy and we all know what happened to him! I think they should all be Fired, and replaced with some honest Farmers like it use to be, not millionaires that don't care squat for you and I.

Joe Salt

AndyTaber
10-14-2013, 07:40 PM
The reason for the big jump in Obama's first term was due to including the cost for two wars in the budget. George Bush hid this amount under "supplemental appropriations".

GerryM
10-14-2013, 08:02 PM
Reagan Term was lowering the national debt actually paying it down. Then came slick Willie, actually he inhareted it from Reagan, in his second term he had it going back up.
Its correct on the two wars. actually that had a lot to do with the debt raising.
Borrowing money to fight a war is dumb, also it's dumb to barrow money to give away. There is a lot that can be cut from the budget if the powers to be would only read the real budget.
We waste a lot of money on many things.

TheoW
10-14-2013, 10:22 PM
How can we fly like eagles when we're led by a turkey?
With apologies to turkeys!

rwnoel
10-14-2013, 10:46 PM
temporal correlation does not mean causation.

Statistics can be fun. Understanding what they mean is a completely different story.

thumper4fun
10-14-2013, 10:47 PM
Or are you the kind who ignores data?

Nope not the kind that ignores data, but it appears your data is incomplete.

vicvanb
10-14-2013, 10:51 PM
The reason for the big jump in Obama's first term was due to including the cost for two wars in the budget.

When Bush was POTUS there was a lot of discussion of deficits and the national debt on this forum. Most of the conservatives were unconcerned at that time--in denial that the chickens would ever come home to roost. Now, conservatives have the debt issue as their poster child--pretty hilarious after the Republican Congress ran up huge deficits and greatly lowered revenues under Bush.

Remember when the Iraq war was going to be over quick and pay for itself as we tapped into their oil? Now, it's 3 trillion dollars down the rat hole. How could we have been so gullible?

Sorry, but we need to understand how we got to where we are if we ever want to "take our country back" and put us on the right track. And as Charles E said in starting this thread, we need to take it back from the Republicans.

thumper4fun
10-14-2013, 11:06 PM
Remember when the Iraq war

Glad you brought that up. The War in Iraq would have never happened without the 'YEA' votes of these fine folks. The democrats had control of the senate at that time and could have stopped any war in Iraq. But you conveniently forget that point.


Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Breaux (D-LA)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carnahan (D-MO)
Carper (D-DE)
Cleland (D-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Daschle (D-SD)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Edwards (D-NC)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hollings (D-SC)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Miller (D-GA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Schumer (D-NY)
Torricelli (D-NJ)

vicvanb
10-14-2013, 11:36 PM
The democrats had control of the senate at that time and could have stopped any war in Iraq.


And you forgot that they would never have voted "Yea" had they been told the truth about weapons of mass destruction, centrifuge tubes, Yellowcake uranium, Hussein's lack of involvement in 9/11, how long it would take, how much it would cost and how it was unlikely we'd ever get any of Iraq's oil. There was no truth to be had on any of that.

If you claim the Iraq war was an initiative of the Democrats, you must also believe in the tooth fairy.

JerrySharrett
10-15-2013, 06:19 AM
Your chart conveniently cuts of just before the tripling of debt by Obama!

Lawrence, I am certainly not an Obama supporter, did not vote for him and would vote to impeach him if I got a chance,but, the acceleration of what Charles chart shows is spillover from the GW Bush years.

James M.
10-15-2013, 07:33 AM
Barack claims to cut the deficit by 50%......yeah, that is compared to his own record setting spending. He has accumulated more debt in 4.5 years than all the other Presidents combined. The Obamacare alone contributes a tremendous debt of about 2.4 TRILLION dollars. The purpose of this monstrosity is to buy votes from the never-do-wells who don't buy their own insurance, food, housing or anything else....sort of like Barack. Wake up America! James

rwnoel
10-15-2013, 07:48 AM
What some people seem to be ignoring... the president doesn't have the authority or responsibility for appropriating for money. Appropriations are the responsibility of Congress. While the president sends a budget request to Congress, that budget has no weight of law. Remember all the democrats giggling that President Reagan's budgets were DOA?

adamsgt
10-15-2013, 09:39 AM
What some people seem to be ignoring... the president doesn't have the authority or responsibility for appropriating for money. Appropriations are the responsibility of Congress. While the president sends a budget request to Congress, that budget has no weight of law. Remember all the democrats giggling that President Reagan's budgets were DOA?

Yes, I remember Dan Rostenkowski (D) chairman of the Ways and Means Committee chortling as he made those announcements. He later was jailed on corruption charges. IIRC during the last two years Bush's second term the democrats had a veto proof majority in both houses of congress. The democrats passed some huge spending bills and I hoped that Bush would veto them even though the democratic senate would override his veto. At least that would have made the democrats own the huge debt increase. Instead Bush signed the bills. I don't know if he was trying to be "Mister nice guy" of what but that started my disenchantment with the Republican party. I also learned that you can't play nice with democrats. They'll eat you alive if you do.

JerrySharrett
10-15-2013, 09:55 AM
. Wake up America! James


Yhea, wake up America, both sides are lying through their teeth.

Plus:

The insurance companies are not fighting it-what does that tell you.

The medical doctors are not fighting it-what does that tell you.

Think about this- any time Congress raises their hands in the affirmative and any time a sitting President signs it, WHAT EVER IT IS, we loose freedoms and money.

Someone name me a time when we were ever given money back or given more freedoms!!

Shut 'er down!!!!

thumper4fun
10-15-2013, 10:06 AM
If you claim the Iraq war was an initiative of the Democrats, you must also believe in the tooth fairy.

The truth hurts doesn't? The democrats are just as much to blame for the war in Iraq and you just can't swallow that bitter pill. I bet if we could go back in time you supported the war (because 65% of Americans fully supported it at the time), but like a good democrat you would never admit that now. In fact 79% of France's voting population supported the war at the time. I guess Bush lied to them too?

Also, let's not forget the Harry S. Truman Korean War along with the Kennedy/Johnson Vietnam war while we are discussing ill advised military actions.

And speaking of a president lying, do you remember Clinton getting in front of the cameras and looking all of America in the eye and telling us "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky"? Or I guess in your democratic mind that wasn't a lie. Just like Nixon lied about his involvement/knowledge in Watergate.

Anyone that blindly supports a party (democrat or republican) and votes along those lines only because of their party affiliation is a foolish person.

Neither party can wear white! And right now they are all spending our money like a drunk on Friday night, with no end in sight.

vicvanb
10-15-2013, 11:11 AM
The democrats are just as much to blame for the war in Iraq...

...yet another believer in the flat earth theory...

thumper4fun
10-15-2013, 11:16 AM
Is that all you got? I bet you bump into a lot of things with those blinders on.

Bill Dorsey
10-15-2013, 12:05 PM
If I have my facts straight....there's only one Representative to have EVER voted no on all the budget bills presented to him.

Ron Paul......

With that said, I'm not a real big fan of RP nor do I live in his district in Texas......wasn't a RP supporter when he ran for Pres.

I DO think that it's way past time for us to rethink the Republican/Democrat thing and look towards the Libertarians.


It's been hold my nose and vote for the least smelly candidate the last few elections....I'm tired of doing that.

I'd like a candidate with fresh ideas AND the grapes in his sack to follow through with implementation.

abintx
10-15-2013, 12:12 PM
Tuesday morning, 15 October. My gawd! The Conservative Republicans in Congress have got to be the most dyslectic group of idiots ever elected to that body. Where do we find dummies and saboteurs like this?

The Republican party needs a new speaker and a thorough house cleaning. The Republican Party Is A Joke. The American people are not going to forget these folks come the next election.

James M.
10-15-2013, 12:41 PM
What is Barack and Dirty Harry objecting to this time. The Republicans have offered both some improvements to the ACA. They want Barack and Harry to live by the same law that they rammed thru with no Republican votes...then changed unilaterally by Barack to favor his friends. I know that this Congress has no spine, but Barack needs to be Impeached for both "High crimes" and "misdemeanors". When the chief executive (Barack) will not enforce valid laws, and change laws already passed, that my friends is a "high crime". Wake up America.....James

JerrySharrett
10-15-2013, 12:54 PM
If I have my facts straight....there's only one Representative to have EVER voted no on all the budget bills presented to him.

Ron Paul......

With.

The RP's of Texas are the only two Presidential candidates we have had in modern times that were worth a fiddlers dingy-thingy.

I voted for Ross and Ron when they ran....next time Kingfish Long (or Ed Snowden)??

I see we will be in the SOS (Same Old S**T) next election if most people, like Mock, keep voting back in the SOS...and they will!!

vicvanb
10-15-2013, 01:56 PM
The Republicans have offered both some improvements to the ACA.

Let's see...

The Tea Party Republicans vowed to defund the ACA, something they knew they could not achieve from the get go, in order to kill a law passed by both houses of Congress , signed by the POTUS and upheld by the SCOTUS. Then, they vowed to "delay" (read "kill") it a year. When they couldn't deliver either killing or delaying it, they held the federal budget hostage thereby costing billions and creating suffering for millions of innocent people. Now, they want to repeal the medical device tax provision in order to kill partial funding of the ACA.

These measures are "some improvements???"

thumper4fun
10-15-2013, 02:13 PM
The Tea Party Republicans are doing just what their constituents put them in office to do. Find any way possible to stop ObamaCare and reduce spending. Not sure that you have noticed through your blinders but a lot more folks in this country disapprove of ObamaCare than approve of it. Of the 40% that do approve of ObamaCare 1/3 of them don't really know what it is. They just like it because the democrats came up with it. I suspect you would fall in that 1/3.

rwnoel
10-15-2013, 03:02 PM
The Tea Party Republicans are doing just what their constituents put them in office to do. Find any way possible to stop ObamaCare and reduce spending. Not sure that you have noticed through your blinders but a lot more folks in this country disapprove of ObamaCare than approve of it. Of the 40% that do approve of ObamaCare 1/3 of them don't really know what it is. They just like it because the democrats came up with it. I suspect you would fall in that 1/3.

I suspect that far fewer than 1/3 of the people know what "obamacare" really is. There were lots of claims from the proponents of "obamacare", none of the claims turn out to be true.

JerrySharrett
10-15-2013, 03:41 PM
I suspect that far fewer than 1/3 of the people know what "obamacare" really is. There were lots of claims from the proponents of "obamacare", none of the claims turn out to be true.

I suspect that 1/3 000,000 Americans know and I will bet that 1/300 in Congress even read the outline!

vicvanb
10-15-2013, 07:44 PM
They just like it because the democrats came up with it. I suspect you would fall in that 1/3.

Actually, it's just the opposite-- those who oppose the ACA don't like it because the POTUS came up with it. I suspect you are in that category.

thumper4fun
10-15-2013, 08:04 PM
If its such a great thing why doesn't obama and his ilk join up?

GerryM
10-15-2013, 09:07 PM
Any time a bill {or law} Gives the federal government control over your personal bank accounts , That law becomes anarchy.
section 59 of the ACA. Gives such authority to The federal government. also you mush have a end of life Plan"""
There,s a lot more too, Rationed care at older ages . Denial of care to some. It also discriminates against some groups. allowing some to opt out and other to be
Mandatory with Fines if you don't comply. IT stinks ITs corrupt to say the least.
Only idiots could come up with such an Unjust law. It was passed behind closed doors by ONLY Democrats,
It was not a bipartason law agreed to by both partys, IT was decided on by a corrupt supreme court deciding that it was a tax and therefore Legal

Bill Dorsey
10-15-2013, 09:59 PM
If its such a great thing why doesn't obama and his ilk join up?




Post of the day right here!!!!!!!!

Well done!!!!!

GerryM
10-16-2013, 07:56 AM
If it s so great how about making it mandatory for only Democrats. All Democrats must sign up. Republicans and others can opt out with no strings attached.
If Democrats don't sign up they will be fined by the IRS and penalized , with possible leins against their personal property.
All Democrat memebers of Government will have this coverage for life , no exceptions, , It will be funded by memeber,s of Congress thru Tax deductions from their pay checks.
Congress will no longer have the ability to make other funds outside of Government. Congress will have a 40 hr week day 5 days a week , no overtime, and must be available,
for votes on the decision making process 7 days a week , I have other provisions in mind .
Maybe I should list them one at a time. Lets treat congress like other employees at certain firms...

TheoW
10-16-2013, 08:14 AM
Don't we just love figures.
The Jewish accountant would ask: Vhat do you want the figures to show?

Oh, and figures lie and liars figure.

You couldn't have chosen a plain, ordinary accountant....your mind chose a Jewish one. Shame on you!

ReedG
10-16-2013, 09:42 AM
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100413.php3#.Ul6XYhDBM6o

HovisKM
10-16-2013, 11:42 AM
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100413.php3#.Ul6XYhDBM6o

Yep...there it is in simple format...awesome.

Hovis

Lee Martin
10-16-2013, 12:53 PM
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100413.php3#.Ul6XYhDBM6o

Concise and extremely well written. The only problem is the left won't acknowledge any of those points.....namely because it deals in common fact and logic.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

alinwa
10-16-2013, 07:23 PM
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100413.php3#.Ul6XYhDBM6o

ooooohh but you had to choose a JEWISH world review instead of a plain ordinary world review, poopy poopy poopy on you, I'm sooo dissappointed.....

GerryM
10-16-2013, 08:44 PM
as we char about this The Republicans have scheduled a vote to extend the borrowing limits of the Government.

They have buckeled under pressure from the Press and public opinion.
I wonder if they are ever going to get a sensible budget in the future.

JerrySharrett
10-17-2013, 07:50 AM
They have buckeled under pressure from the Press and public opinion.
I wonder if they are ever going to get a sensible budget in the future.

I'm not sure this was a "buckle" or if it was orchestrated. You must remember the power, now, behind the GOP is the "Neocons". Research that and you will find that is a bunch who came over to the GOP from the Democratic apparatus and are now a major power behind both the GOP and the Dems.

The GOP leadership, if they were true to their public claims and their mandate from the base, would not have caved!!!

For starters-

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/neocons-are-back-but-not-in-the-gop/

Note the references to the PNAC organization. Note too, that in many articles it is stated that PNAC shut down...it has not!!

HovisKM
10-17-2013, 08:50 AM
National Debt

Bush - 8 years - 5.849 trillion

Obama - 4 years - 5.081 trillion



There is no goverment program in the history of the U.S. that actually cut national debt.

Hovis

JerrySharrett
10-17-2013, 09:10 AM
National Debt

Bush - 8 years - 5.849 trillion

Obama - 4 years - 5.081 trillion



There is no goverment program in the history of the U.S. that actually cut national debt.

Hovis

SO??

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/

GerryM
10-17-2013, 09:36 AM
That was a very good read Jerry'
I hope some others also read it.
That aside the budget Really needs a good read also.
The waste in it boggles my mind. They throw around millions of $$$ like it pennies .
It doesn't surprise me as to who votes for what. Personal gain seems to be the thing that drives these politicos.

HovisKM
10-17-2013, 02:00 PM
Jerry,

Who has paid the price for the dot.com bubble, the energy bubble, the mortgage bubble that was created during the so called economic boom of the 90's....we have so far found out that taxes were paid in on money that wasn't earned so that the stock market would look good and dividends paid out. Come to find out, the money didn't really exist. People have short memories. All we did in the 90's was essentially borrow money (surplus's) that we are now paying for.

The politicians really outsmarted the people on that one.

Hovis

GerryM
10-17-2013, 07:12 PM
Not really . If you trust the stock market with your money your bound to loose.
what really hurts are the super low interest rates that Banks pay to depositors
The federal reserve has stuck it to us The world bank is something else. Time for some changes in Banking.
The system is out dated.

canuck
10-18-2013, 09:24 AM
Big business runs the U.S not the government( because the government caves to big business) and big business has always put their own greed ahead of the country.The only way out of this is to elect government with a high level of morals and integrity( good luck because the people don't want it)Just look at the 2008 crisis.They new this was coming,they all did but kept going because they were getting rich off it.They could not have cared less about the U.S as a nation.Frankly they should have all been taken out and hung as traitors which probably would have happened if it had been 100 years earlier. Instead they got big fat bail-out bonuses. Only in the U.S of A.
Also, I believe a much greater crash is coming and sooner than you think. Right now your economy is built on a house of cards.Anyone who thinks the U.S is recovering is ignoring the facts.

JerrySharrett
10-18-2013, 10:13 AM
This puts things into a much better perspective as to the present economic situation..

Lesson # 1:

* U.S. Tax revenue: $ 2,170,000,000,000.00

* Fed budget: $ 3,820,000,000,000.00

* New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000.00

* National debt: $ 16,271,000,000,000.00

* Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000.00

Let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:

* Annual family income: $ 21,700.00

* Money the family spent: $ 38,200.00

* New debt on the credit card: $ 16,500.00

* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $ 162,710.00

* Total budget cuts so far: $ 38.50

Got It ?????

OK now,

Lesson # 2:

Here's another way to look at the Debt Ceiling:

Let's say, You come home from work and find there has been a sewer backup in your neighborhood....and your home has sewage all the way up to your ceilings.

What do you think you should do ......

Raise the ceilings, or remove the $hit?

Hunter
10-18-2013, 11:05 AM
Here's another way to look at the Debt Ceiling:

Let's say, You come home from work and find there has been a sewer backup in your neighborhood....and your home has sewage all the way up to your ceilings.

What do you think you should do ......

Raise the ceilings, or remove the $hit?

Here's my take on the debt situation -- I don't think it will ever be paid off (it may be refinanced, but it won't be paid off), and as long as fools are willing to loan money to the gov't the gov't is going to take their money because it makes everyone feel more prosperous. When the fools reach the end of their lending capacity/tolerance the consequences will be painful -- for them and us; in the meantime, the ceilings will rise.

Bob Griffin
10-18-2013, 01:28 PM
Its really kind of simple. It doesn't matter if its you, me, a town, county, state, or Country, YOU CAN NOT SPEND MORE THAN YOU MAKE. YOU CAN NOT BORROW your way out of debt. The Two parties need to put the crap aside and figure out what is right for the country. PERIOD.

vicvanb
10-18-2013, 02:57 PM
The Two parties need to put the crap aside and figure out what is right for the country. PERIOD.

Don't hold your breath. The "deal" to end the shutdown was purposely crafted to fight the same battles all over again in 3-4 months. The committee to craft a budget plan and identify spending cuts will never produce anything agreeable to all by mid-December. Besides, a similar committee effort already failed once before. Congress had everything it needed for a spending cut blueprint in the Simpson-Bowles Commission report but they did nothing with it.

Despite a strong message that the present situation isn't working, they continue down the same road.

GerryM
10-18-2013, 05:51 PM
Yet again more Kool Aid from Vic.
Anything that Simpson said or plans is crap. Big butt liar that he is and was.
He was one of the biggest Tax and Spend supporters of all time.
No the Answer is for Congress to really go over the federal budget and read it line by line , to make the necessary cuts.
That would take the better part of a whole session. That would have to be a non partison effort by all concerned.
The budget is Crazy.
I could list a lot that could be cut . so could many others here. Lets hope they get their Heads out of their butts and get some common sense cuts ''
First let have a resolution to get America Back to work. and stop draining the treasury.

Wilbur
10-18-2013, 06:47 PM
"Here's what I'm gonna do about it...."

Bill Ohio
10-18-2013, 09:14 PM
...yet another believer in the flat earth theory...

There's only one thing clear from this thread: you are a friggin' hypocrite. This website is all about benchrest shooting. The greatest governmental document ever written is the US Constitution. The greatest guarantee of the people keeping the government under control is the 2nd Amendment.

And you, with your asinine views, support liberal Democrats, who, if they could, would repeal the 2nd Amendment and fundamentally change what little remains of the constitutional USA to their twisted ends (i.e. socialism). And your ability to spout off, i.e. 1st Amendment 'Freedom of Speech' would go next.

Liberalism really is a mental disorder. And you, and any supporters of the anti-2nd Amendment legislation, should be permanently banned from this and all other shooting-related sites (including physical sites like shooting ranges).

And speaking of Democrats, let's not forget that JFK and LBJ got the US into Vietnam, which FORCED non-volunteer Americans into the draft, so they could be maimed and killed in that debacle. More than fifty thousand American, KIA, and more than that number have since committed suicide. The modern army is all volunteer. Nobody serves who didn't freely join up.

The fundamental difference between the left and the right is that the left believes other people should be FORCED to pay for somebody else. Such cowardice. Pathetic. So you back your government bullies to fight your battles. And your only "logic" is that two wrongs make a right. Insane.

Ban him Wilbur, please. He'd gladly see the government take your guns.

Charles E
10-18-2013, 09:55 PM
Statistics can be fun. Understanding what they mean is a completely different story.

Sure, I can do that. Bush II is easy, we'll save him for last. Reagan was the first. He wanted to reduce taxes; his was the economic plan/vision the Democrats called "voodoo economics." Regan's own economic advisers didn't use that term, though some -- notably David Stockman -- did call them "stupid."

A good summary can be found

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics

In then end, money didn't trickle down to the middle and lower classes, but the rich did get richer. As Max Smart was wont to say, "Sorry about that."

While cutting the revenue side by lowering taxes, Regan embarked on a strong increase in spending, mainly on the defense/military front. In effect, he defeated the Soviet Union by getting them to play "spend more to keep up military." Rather stupidly, the Soviets played along, so the U.S. bankrupt the Soviet government. A successful tactic, if one could recognize it as such, and then, having achieved the objective, back off & pay down the debt necessary to achieve the goal.

Of course, that didn't happen. Bush the first added to he debt. In fairness, he tried to raise taxes (revenues), but was rather severely handled by the Republican faithful for the effort. Debt wasn't brought down until the Clinton administration. Using skewered logic, some Republicans claim credit for that.

Now I'm one of the people who felt Bush II was too dumb to offer much of a threat. Regardless of where you come down on the man personally, I & others forgot he had friends, just like Warren Harding (go look him up). While there was no Teapot Dome ripoffs, the military contractor friends & political allies involved with Bush II were successful in their attempt to influence him, and wound up doing rather well, financially.

The problem with them doing rather well -- by getting spending up -- was that Bush II cut taxes even further than Regan. I'm pretty sure he's the only American President who went to war & didn't raise taxes. Certainly no one else went to war and lowered taxes. So after ripping through the surpluses from the Clinton years, Bush II just borrowed. And borrowed. The party faithful and the wealthy were still happy -- they had lower taxes.

And the schemers like Rove were probably happy too. Clearly the Republicans would be out after Bush II. The Democrat administration that followed would inherit that debt, and have to deal with it. Moreover, the Republicans could hammer at them to "reduce spending because the debt's so high." And reducing spending would men the Democrats couldn't get anything much done, especially on the social front, so would in turn be vulnerable in the subsequent election. Any social programs -- Democratic mainstays -- could be labeled "unaffordable." (Never mind that the debt was occasioned by defense spending, not social programs.)

Do I think Obama care is the answer? Of course not. We need a single payer system -- because the problem with health care in the U.S. is the costs, not who pays. Apparently only the Federal Government is big enough to get the "negotiated rates" where we can afford heath care. We pay tens to hundreds of times more than the rest of the world for exactly the same medicines (no, I'm not just talking about "generics") and procedures.

It didn't have to be that way, but that's what happens when a group gets greedy, and we as a people let them get away with it. They get big and powerful enough, it takes someone equally large to put a stop to it.

Edit

(from a long article in the NYT entitled "The Soaring Cost of a Simple Breath" Sunday, October 13, 2013):


“The one that really blew my mind was the nasal spray,” said Robin Levi, Hannah and Abby’s mother, referring to her $80 co-payment for Rhinocort Aqua, a prescription drug that was selling for more than $250 a month in Oakland pharmacies last year but costs under $7 in Europe, where it is available over the counter.


* * *

We're doing the same thing with education, by the way.

Most everyone agrees that increasing the education -- the knowledge base -- of our populace is our only out; to (1) address the cycle of poverty & welfare, and more importantly, (2) to be able to compete with the lower wages of manufacturers overseas.

Not to mention the beginning of lower manufacturing costs via reduction in wages within the U.S. by robotic technology. Currently, a robot with a 2.5-year lifespan, that can completely replace a warehouse worker, costs about $32,000. Y'all can figure out what robots don't need that humans do, and you can divide $32,000 by 2.5 for an annual cost... And robots will get cheaper...

So, who's winning on the education front? Well, the bankers are getting richer...

Interpreting the data is just no fun at all. Maybe Tea-Party Republicans should be allowed only the health services available to the founding fathers. The rest of us, Independents & Democrats, get what's available now. We sure do live in different worlds.

ebb
10-18-2013, 10:00 PM
Vic this doesn't have to happen again in 2 or 3 months . All that has to happen is for the government to live within its means. To do that you SPEND LESS THAN YOU TAKE IN. But you are right with this joke of an administration we will revisit this soon.

canuck
10-18-2013, 11:44 PM
Personally I think average American Joe Blow can't see the forest for the trees so to speak.
The root cause has very little to do with taxes in the current time frame.It really boils down to corruption( the influense of BIG BUSINESS). Who does free trade really benefit? Now let's be honest it didn't pan out like you were all led to believe. Free trade allowed the rich to export American jobs off shore,to break the backs of unions etc. Big Business and unions have to both play fair if the U.S has any hope of turning around.
Free trade should only be implimented with countries like UK,France,Germany etc and of coarse subsudies etc all have to be taken into account. Free trade with countries like China,Koreo,Mexico etc etc is pure and utter National suicide on every level for any advanced country such as the U.S etc. Now the Rich know this but guess what? They care more about their short term gains than any country they call home. They are the opposite of patriotic. They are like traitors devouring anything and everything for personal gain. Are all the Rich and successful like this? Of coarse not but it is very often like a plague . It takes leaders and the average person on every level with integrety and morals to really turn things around. I simply don't see this happening as it has gotten completely out of control.It is indeed a slippery slope.

Texas Plinker
10-19-2013, 03:03 AM
The Only Democrat I ever trusted was John F. Kennedy and we all know what happened to him! I think they should all be Fired, and replaced with some honest Farmers like it use to be, not millionaires that don't care squat for you and I.

Joe Salt
There are a few farmers in Congress and most of them are millionaires who often get farm subsidies that they vote for. On a vacation to Iowa this last summer I was amazed by the number of farmers who are millionaires. The day of the small family farm is fast diminishing with large individual or corporate farms becoming more and more the norm. Farming is now big business and this is the trend of the future. This past year I heard of one small Iowa farm that sold for $18000+ per acre. When you said "like it use to be" does not mean the way it is now.

Wilbur
10-19-2013, 04:25 AM
Jerry,

Who has paid the price for the dot.com bubble, .......

Hovis

I think I did! Ran outta Little Debbies and had to go back to work.

JerrySharrett
10-19-2013, 06:57 AM
I think I did! Ran outta Little Debbies and had to go back to work.

Plus, O. D. McKee died. For those out of this area O. D. McKee was the founder of McKee Baking Inc maker of the Little Debbie line of snacks.

I met O. D. in about 1990, he was 86 at the time and still running the company. If this world had more O. D. Mckees and less lawyers we would be much better off.

How many Little Debbie cakes have I eaten, Wilbur? Tons!! Just for example, at the recent River Bend shoot I took a box of Little Debbie Cranberry muffins, a box of Little Debbie'
chocolate chip muffins and a box of Little Debbie Fudge cakes.

http://www.mckeefoods.com/About_us/Company_History/default.htm

JerrySharrett
10-19-2013, 07:24 AM
V
Sure, I can do that. Bush II is easy, we'll save him for last. Reagan was the first. He wanted to reduce taxes; his was the economic plan/vision the Democrats called "voodoo economics." Regan's own economic advisers didn't use that term, though some -- notably David Stockman -- did call them "stupid."


Boy, do I agree with most of that. I was a loyal Republican till Reagan. Then I went independent and NO I did not vote for Clinton or Bommy Wommy!

Why did I not like Reagan? With his "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall" he made the Communist movement the good guys. Did the "red" threat go away? Did they throw away one bullet, one nuclear sub, one Atomic ICBM (still aimed at the US, one Communist navy ship....no. The Red Dawn is still on our horizon.

One place I might differ with what Charles E wrote is his phrase "Tea Party Republicans". To me the true "Tea Party" is not even an official party at all...yet.
The mindset "Tea Party", their time is yet to come...hopefully.

I do totally agree with Charles that Bush II was a stupid illiterate dummy who was controlled from behind the curtain.

jackie schmidt
10-19-2013, 08:59 AM
Bob, true, all individules, and governments, except the Federal Government, have the problem that sooner or later you will go broke if you keep spending more than you make.

The Federal Government does not seem to have that problem because it has the one ability nothing else has, the power to print money.

I said " does not seem" because the problem is, as the Federal Government simply prints more, what they print becomes worth less.

There is no easy solution to any of this, and if there was, I doubt that the majority of Americans would adopt it. Why? Because far too many people have become accustomed to living off of some type of Government Handout. As the population ages, fewer and fewer people will be putting money into the can while more and more will be taking it out.

Add in all of the people who never put anything in in the first place, and it is not hard to see the problem.

If everybody is waiting on something to change, you will have a long wait.

Everybody keeps saying, "let's return to the good old days". Just exactly what, and when, were "the good old days?..........jackie

abintx
10-19-2013, 11:34 AM
National Debt
Bush - 8 years - 5.849 trillion
Obama - 4 years - 5.081 trillion
There is no goverment program in the history of the U.S. that actually cut national debt.
Hovis

Gentlemen, don't lose sight of the fact that before Ronald Reagan and the Republicans took office this country had a deficit of around $960 BILLION dollars. That's from the time this country was founded until he took office, a period of approximately 200 years.

When he left office, this country had a deficit of slightly over $2 TRILLION. He more than doubled the entire debt in only 8 years.

He and the Republican Party are the father of TRILLION DOLLAR DEFICITS.

On the other hand the Democrats under Bill Clinton ran a budget surplus that was quickly eroded by George Bush Jr.

Since there seems to be a stable of what appears to be award winning PhD tenured Economists that now reside in the halls of this site, here is an article you might ponder as you would when sitting behind your honorary university "Chairs": http://www.forbes.com/sites/karlwhelan/2012/09/05/did-bill-clintons-budgets-really-destroy-the-american-economy/

It's interesting that some macroeconomic theorists think that in order for a government to run a surplus, the private sector has to run a deficit, and vice versa. Now there's something to examine, when you put on your thinking caps.

vicvanb
10-19-2013, 11:40 AM
"Here's what I'm gonna do about it...."

You have not seen those words because the "average Joe" senses that there is very little he can do. He knows that Washington is dysfunctional--nothing gets done because both sides are more interested in scoring political points than addressing the country's problems. He knows that money talks and the only real input the politicians listen to comes from special interest lobbyists. He thought that things would change if Obama got elected (if he's on the left) or when the Tea Party rose to prominence (if he's on the right) and they did change--things got worse. He thought that elections mattered but now it seems they don't.

Seems like American "exceptionalism" no longer applies. Average Joes are angry because they see so many problems that need fixing but there is no way they can contribute to fixing them.

Am I wrong??

Chism G
10-19-2013, 11:55 AM
There was a time, in the industrial Northern part of the Country,when everybody that wanted,had a job in a booming manufacturing era. This was the 40's,50's and early 60's,when the per capita income in that part of the Country was the highest in the nation. The Welfare system,Corruption and Jobs outsourcing, Both Foreign and Domestic,slowly turned some of our greatest cities into Economically Depressed Slums. I suspect that this Cancer will continue to spread to other areas of the Country. The quick fix is, bring the Jobs back.Cut the hand outs, Put the thieves in Jail. The problem is, electing Politicians that have the Balls to address these issues.



Glenn

vicvanb
10-19-2013, 12:02 PM
The problem is, electing Politicians that have the Balls to address these issues.


Maybe just the opposite--elect more women. During the latest crisis in DC, women were the only ones offering intelligent options to re-open government and deal with the debt ceiling.

canuck
10-19-2013, 01:05 PM
When a country imports over half the stuff they buy WHICH was once manufactured in the States it catches up with you sooner or later. IT HAS NOW CAUGHT UP WITH YOU.There are millions out of work because of out sourcing.That is an awful lot of real tax revenue lost.However this is ONLY part of the problem. The problems in the Nation run deep.
Treating the symptoms works for a little while but if you really want real progress you must get to the root cause. The U.S will continue to fall until they decide to deal with the real problem but like an addict I don't believe the nation as a whole has the stomach or even the desire to change.It's hard to fix something you really don't truly want to fix.
I believe there is a small glimmer of hope for the U.S but time is running out and fast.

Wilbur
10-19-2013, 02:43 PM
And like an addict...the only way is up is from rock bottom. It ain't the pusher..er..politician. It's all of us together ridin' down the road in a new red Mercedes wishing for somebody else to fix it before we have to downgrade to a used red Mercedes..

adamsgt
10-19-2013, 02:44 PM
When a country imports over half the stuff they buy WHICH was once manufactured in the States it catches up with you sooner or later. IT HAS NOW CAUGHT UP WITH YOU.There are millions out of work because of out sourcing.That is an awful lot of real tax revenue lost.However this is ONLY part of the problem. The problems in the Nation run deep.
Treating the symptoms works for a little while but if you really want real progress you must get to the root cause. The U.S will continue to fall until they decide to deal with the real problem but like an addict I don't believe the nation as a whole has the stomach or even the desire to change.It's hard to fix something you really don't truly want to fix.
I believe there is a small glimmer of hope for the U.S but time is running out and fast.

OK, so what do think is the "real problem"

Charles E
10-19-2013, 04:08 PM
There are a few farmers in Congress and most of them are millionaires who often get farm subsidies that they vote for. On a vacation to Iowa this last summer I was amazed by the number of farmers who are millionaires. The day of the small family farm is fast diminishing with large individual or corporate farms becoming more and more the norm. Farming is now big business and this is the trend of the future. This past year I heard of one small Iowa farm that sold for $18000+ per acre. When you said "like it use to be" does not mean the way it is now.

Well, while I kinda agree with you about farm subsidies -- our family farm that my uncle ran from 1935 until 1980 was 320 acres -- you've sort of forgotten what a million dollas is worth today.

In 1965, a mid-level chevvy was around $2,500, new. Close to 10 times that today.

Or, if you had a million dollars, and you could get a 7% return before taxes (still tough to do), that would give you an annual income of $70,000. Now a husband & wife in North Carolina, both teaching high school, would have an income of around $90,000. Much higher in New York, of course. So your income on that 1 million would be less than a pair of high-school teachers.

Worse, if you had to live off that 1 million for a length of time -- say 20 years; it wouldn't be worth anywhere near as much. That's called inflation. So you better take 5% of that return & plow it back into your money available for investment, to account for inflation. That leaves $20,000 a year for income, before taxes -- to live off.

And it is tough to get a 7% return, year after year. Before Ronnie Ray-gun opened up banking, the bankers that took deposits had a 3-6-3 rule. You pay 3% on deposits, you charge 6% on loans, and you hit the golf course by 3pm. Harder to get a higher return than the bankers...

BTW, before the easing of restriction on the banking industry by Regan, that is, between 1932 and 1980, we had exactly zero financial crises. Zero. Nada. None. Since then...count 'em up. I get 4 in 35 years.

Now who lost in those? You think it was the bankers?

Still, if you're 70 or so, you can live out your life on the $1,000,0000. Because you've got Medicare. Without Medicare...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57568290/onlineoutrage-after-croatian-child-reportedly-charged-$837000by-u.s-hospital-for-cancer-treatment/

Cost of treatment for a girl without insurance: $837,000. Try that with a $1,000,000 lifetime limit on your health insurance policy. No such limit with Medicare...

Wilbur
10-20-2013, 02:15 AM
You have not seen those words because the "average Joe" senses that there is very little he can do. He knows that Washington is dysfunctional--nothing gets done because both sides are more interested in scoring political points than addressing the country's problems. He knows that money talks and the only real input the politicians listen to comes from special interest lobbyists. He thought that things would change if Obama got elected (if he's on the left) or when the Tea Party rose to prominence (if he's on the right) and they did change--things got worse. He thought that elections mattered but now it seems they don't.

Seems like American "exceptionalism" no longer applies. Average Joes are angry because they see so many problems that need fixing but there is no way they can contribute to fixing them.

Am I wrong??

You're right about the perception.....BUT....the Average Joe CAN fix it. All it takes is enough Joes willing to sacrifice a few years driving a used car and eating beans (home cooked). I'm guessing that most Joes know this and are falling back on that perception you mentioned. Status Quo is nearly always the easiest.

JerrySharrett
10-20-2013, 06:32 AM
You're right about the perception.....BUT....the Average Joe CAN fix it. .

Remember, WE THE PROPLE are the Average Joes.

GerryM
10-20-2013, 04:17 PM
The Three ways Government handles problems.
1 start a new program.

2 Legislate the problem away

3 expand an existing program by throwing more money into it.

That's the way Washington thinks.