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Gina1
09-19-2013, 11:19 AM
Hi guys…

I was wondering if I could get some advice from you all.

I'm thinking about re-barreling my .223 rifle from a 1/9 twist to a 1/7 twist. In looking over the various barrel manufacturing websites, I noticed that the replacement barrel can be ordered in, 3, 4, 5, and 6 grooves.

What is the advantage, disadvantage of having a barrel with more than 3 grooves? Which one would you choose ?

Much thanks… Gina

mhb
09-19-2013, 12:41 PM
Have standardized 6-groove rifling for the .223/5.56mm, and the government still uses it, of course. There is no reliable evidence that the number of grooves (or geometry thereof) has any direct effect on accuracy. The reputation of the barrel maker and his products should be your guide, not the rifling pattern - and there is no significant advantage attached to the number of grooves, if different from the standard.
mhb - Mike


Hi guys…

I was wondering if I could get some advice from you all.

I'm thinking about re-barreling my .223 rifle from a 1/9 twist to a 1/7 twist. In looking over the various barrel manufacturing websites, I noticed that the replacement barrel can be ordered in, 3, 4, 5, and 6 grooves.

What is the advantage, disadvantage of having a barrel with more than 3 grooves? Which one would you choose ?

Much thanks… Gina

Lee Martin
09-19-2013, 12:58 PM
What Mike said. If you query benchrest shooters you'll find some like 3-groove, some like 6, etc, etc. But if the barrel is done right the groove count doesn't matter (at least I haven't seen evidence to prove otherwise).

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

karls42
09-19-2013, 04:29 PM
Anything more than one groove can shoot well.

ebb
09-20-2013, 09:28 PM
I shoot some calibers that are barrel burners and I have listened to others that shoot them and most believe that a 2 groove or 3 groove barrel will last longer because the lands are wider and have more metal to erode. I have no proof that this is true or not, just passing on some thing I heard. I think Dan Lilja says this is the case with his experience.

expiper
09-20-2013, 09:56 PM
Hi Gina,,,,the number and type of grooves (IMHO) don't have a lot to do with accuracy ,,,but,,,they do have a lot to do with bbl life and how quickly they foul and get copper jacket wash issues during a string of fire (# of rounds between cleaning due to course of fire,,) I seem to see less problems with cut 4 groove bbls and great bbl life ,,,,,Roger

Louis.J
09-20-2013, 10:46 PM
One would think an odd number would provide better all around bullet support.

JLouis

Charles E
09-20-2013, 10:46 PM
Gina,

Post # 2 was all you need. Many have favorites of this 'n thats. Actually, I have a couple 3-groove button rifle barrels that do as well as my 4-grove cut-rifled barrels. Anyway you want to describe "as well as."

And a couple Broughtons (they're buttoned) that last longer & clean easier and shoot as well as the Kerigers on my 1K rifles.

Good statistical deviation data requires a sample size of about 70 samples of each variable. Throw in all the variables with barrels (& some seem not to be known), and maybe not even Tony Boyer has been through enough barrels to warrant anything beyond "an impression."

R.G. Robinett got his HBR 100-200 championship this year (and "validated" his earlier HoF induction), mainly using Pac-Nors in recent years.

Shilens were in disfavor for a while at the Original Pennsylvania 1,000 Yard Benchrest club, so Phil Bowers used to buy (cheaply) all the Shilens given away as prizes, fit them, then go beat up on the previous "winner." Worked well for Phil (lower cost) and for Shilen, as Phil won a lot.

Etc.

The sum of my 25-years of benchrest, both long range and short, says you're just as apt to get a great barrel buying one each across the proven manufacturers as with buying the same number of barrels from a a single manufacturer. Everything else is just fashion, else there would only be one barrel maker, and we'd all use him/her.

UncleB
09-20-2013, 11:21 PM
Many have favorites of this 'n thats. Actually, I have a couple 3-groove button rifle barrels that do as well as my 4-grove cut-rifled barrels.

Many things I disagree with on your last post but this caused a snot bubble:D

UncleB
09-20-2013, 11:27 PM
not even Tony Boyer has been through enough barrels to warrant anything beyond "an impression."

Could be the most ridiculous statement of the year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Charles E
09-21-2013, 09:50 AM
Many things I disagree with on your last post but this caused a snot bubble:DWell, some use science, some use snot. Been my experience the snot-users really look down on people who want data.

Speaking of data, the number of barrels needed to do controlled testing, for statistically significant data -- depending on the number of things you want to test for and assuming they interrelate -- would be in the 10s of thousands.

Butch Lambert
09-21-2013, 05:04 PM
Stand your ground Charles E. A good barrel is a good barrel. Land and groove counts don't matter.

Louis.J
09-21-2013, 10:40 PM
Totally agree with Charles E, you have to several each before you can even start to think about drawing any sort of conclusion and I don't believe any Tony has come close to being able to do so. One of the best no doubt but you have to start collecting an equal amount of data for all the current products out there.
If not is it nothing more than a fellow shooting a 3-shot one hole group and thinking his barrel is the holy grail of barrels. If he stretched out data wise he would no doubt get depressed with the real outcome, the average for all groups shot.

Charles E
09-22-2013, 08:24 AM
For any of you new to benchrest, this is no disrespect to Tony Boyer. Mr. Boyer is the greatest benchrest competitor of all time. That's not even debatable. His dedication is to competitive shooting, not science. The data that one could gather from testing and cross-referencing tens of thousands of barrels might, in time, lead to a better manufacturing process for barrels. Or it might not. It has nothing to do with competitive shooting.

Which, I think, is the point for Gina. Anyone who tells you that a certain number of grooves, lands, their profile, etc. is working off faith. Any experience claimed is pretty limited. Whatever configuration you pick, there are just too many cases of something quite different doing all the winning, for a while.

There are good reasons for competition, there are good reasons for science. It is both a mistake and silly to confuse the two.

GerryM
09-22-2013, 11:35 AM
There was an article in Precision shooting years ago Talking on barrels in general.
It was written by Clyde Hart and Mike walker. {general conversation}
One thing that was mentions was amount of groves and types of rifling. Both agreed it didn't matter how many groves were present,
Or what type of rifleing was used. What did matter was the overall quality and surface finish and straightness is what mattered.
I;m sure most experienced shooters will agree it doesn't matter if is a buttoned barrel or a cut barrel
Simply put a good Barrel is a good barrel

alinwa
09-22-2013, 11:18 PM
I like an even number of grooves now..........





because.....








because.....










when you slug them you can get a measurement!

:)

al

Dennis D.
09-26-2013, 03:39 PM
I believe it was Jackie Schmidt who had a logical reason for using 4 groove barrels, they are easy to dial in with a 4 jaw chuck.



Dennis