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rodauto
09-07-2013, 06:17 PM
Hi all,
I am still trying to work up an accurate load for my "new to me" 6 mm ppc rifle.262 neck chamber and bench rest stock. Don't know much more about it as I purchased it used.
The rifle is a custom action heavy barrel, single shot.
Using Berger 68 gr moly, Lapua 220 russian brass, H322 powder.
Started off at 26 gr H322 and had some promising groups in the winter that went south once the weather warmed up!!
Have since found that the best/ most consistent groups for this rifle are around 29.4 and 29.6. I want to go higher. Lots of room yet in the case as 29.6 is just starting to fill to the lower part of the neck.
My other PPC liked the Remington benchrest primers but had to go to softer Federal primers to get consistent ignition with the new rifle.
The Federal primers seem to be a lot softer than the Remington so even though I am not getting excessively flat primers or heavy/ sticky bolt lift, the primers are cratering even at 27.8 grains of H322??
Is this normal for Federal primers or do I have a problem?1414714148

alinwa
09-07-2013, 07:38 PM
My guess is that you've an oversized firing pin. Measure it with a caliper an see if it's over .070 diameter, if it's up in the .085 range you will get cratering and, worse yet, blanking with relatively mild loads.

rodauto
09-07-2013, 10:50 PM
Thanks Alinwa,
Will check that tomorrow, what is blanking?

Rodney

alinwa
09-08-2013, 01:37 AM
Blanking is the next step beyond cratering wherein the primer cup fails, the cratered area pops out (is blown out) and the little disc of primer cup material disappears into the recesses of your bolt where it wreaks havoc with ignition. Blanking primers will quickly give your rifle a 'virus' and you'll have to disassemble your bolt and clean out the hunks of detritus to get your accuracy back. The other thing is that popping primers can wreck your 250.00 Jewell trigger.

The cure is a bushed firing pin hole.

Meantime I may be haring off down a nonexistent rabbit trail here..... let's measure that firing pin hole :)

al

Bill Dorsey
09-08-2013, 06:54 AM
Can't really tell from the picture......what kind of action is that.


You talk of inconsistient ignition, check your firing pin spring tension.....should be at least 20lbs or so.

rodauto
09-08-2013, 08:24 AM
Hi Bill,
It is a Wcislo action, my understanding is that he was a gunsmith in Ontario Canada a few years back, he made about 1/2 a dozen actions. I think he found it was more trouble than it was worth? Not sure what it is made of but a magnet will not stick appears to use a Remington style bolt?
Have not had a FTF since switching to Federal match primers. If I confirm a Remington bolt will just replace the firing pin spring anyway. Will add pictures in a few minutes

The following is information I recieved from another shooter with the same action

Adam Wcsilo emigrated from Poland in the 80's. He lived in Waterloo ON had a machine shop, made production parts on a Hardinge CNC lathe. The business folded and he went to work for Dimaco military arms builder. He built a prototype action ( shell holder type bolt head). The rifle shot great and I encouraged him to make a more practical action. We examined several and he decided to make a better Stolle Panda. He made a production run of about 15 of which about 7 were fully completed. I have 3, We sold one at the Super Shoot in 1991or2, you have 1. There are 3 others. One of mine is in the white which uses a bolt from another. The remaining 6 in the white, about 90% finished, he threw out about 6 years ago. He lost interest and was into wood carving. The 4340 steel action ring was 2X stress relieved and fine threaded and appoxied into the 7075 T561 aluminum action body. The pressure relief hole is for a dial pin that indexed the steel action ring that carries the lugs. The bolt is 440 stainless steel hardened to 46 rockwell. His plan was to coat the action ring and lugs with TIN and run the bolt as stainless. But lugs were too deep 1.75" in the ring and the TIN coating wouldn't cover them. So he had to coat the bolt with TIN instead. He was lucky the bolt was hardened to 46 R, or the TI coating would crack and peel as the substrate flexed. The fluting on the bolt looks spiral but it is not. He ran a milling bit straight across the bolt that was angled across the bit's path. Look down the flutes... its straight. The bolt handle is screwed and appoxied in place. Mine has come loose a couple of times.. a weak point.. you should check once in a while. I just reglued and locktited mine. He has a TI coated steel extractor cam on the back of the action that interacts with a notch on the bolt handle.

He made the bolt quite loose in the action. The bolt head fits unfired lapua .220 Russian exactly .439" This indexes the bolt head in the front. Other brass may not fit. Brass I have fired in other guns for a while will not fit my Adam action, the rims must be turned to .439. He reduced the firing pin fall to .180" and the cocking cam is shallow. Makes the bolt lift light. Also there is no notch on the back of the bolt for the cocking piece to index. You can recock the bolt with your hand and a rag We tested primers and it lights federal 205's reliably with standard remington firing pin and spring. The action is hard black anodized.

141501415114152141531415414155


Rodney

rodauto
09-08-2013, 08:50 AM
Hi Alinwa

Measured the firing pin, it is about .073 to .074 depending on where I measure it. Is not consistent, appears to be worn and maybe even slightly bent? not sure if you can tell from the pictures I downloaded in previous post.Firing pin appears to fill the firing pin hole quite well with Very little play but looks like I will have to get a new one made.

Rodney

GerryM
09-08-2013, 10:30 AM
I have the same problem with one rifle that I own. I went to CCI BR4 primers and a lot of the problems went away . I also use wolf or Tula Mag primers.
All of them have thicker material in the cups. Those loads are a bit warm to say the least.
I would try a different powder LT32 is a new one that works along with the 2015 and VV 133
Right now everyone is shooting what they can get.

rodauto
09-08-2013, 11:20 AM
Hi GerryM

Will have to download when I run out of Moly bullets,only have 80 left!! I understand that Berger no longer supplies the 68 gr match bullet with moly. Have some 2015 to try and will try to get some LT32 to try with the Berger columns I picked up a while ago.
By the time I get this figured out will need a new barrel, but sure having fun wearing it out!


Rodney

Wilbur
09-08-2013, 09:23 PM
Hi GerryM

Will have to download when I run out of Moly bullets,only have 80 left!! I understand that Berger no longer supplies the 68 gr match bullet with moly. Have some 2015 to try and will try to get some LT32 to try with the Berger columns I picked up a while ago.
By the time I get this figured out will need a new barrel, but sure having fun wearing it out!


Rodney

Moly is too simple to apply to "run out".

Get that bolt bushed to a smaller pin by somebody that understands bolts. Tell him to fix the fall so it will work with anything while he has it. There's more to that little piece of the equation than meets the eye.

rodauto
09-08-2013, 10:27 PM
Hi Wilber,

Looked into doing moly and looks pretty messy, going to try HBN I think.


Rodney

alinwa
09-09-2013, 12:00 AM
.................... There's more to that little piece of the equation than meets the eye.................

Thar's a mouthful of wisdom between those lines.

rodauto
09-09-2013, 06:02 PM
Thar's a mouthful of wisdom between those lines.

alinwa, wilber,
I am assuming you mean that the fact that my firing pin problem is likely not helping my groups? Will get this issue resolved but will be posting again on how to compensate for the fact that the harder I try the more I shake, the harder I shake the more the scope moves (obviously)!!! Need a rail gun with someone else pulling the trigger!
Not a new shooter but definitely not an experienced benchrest shooter. 20 years of being a cheap ass and shooting benchrest with a crappy rest should buy me some Brownie points though?

Rodney

Boyd Allen
09-09-2013, 08:01 PM
It has been a long time since I shot off of a rest where the rifle shook while I was pulling the trigger, especially a light one. What kind of rest and bench are you using, and what sort of accuracy have you been getting? If I remember correctly, the hottest loads that you mentioned are quite a bit above where friends have found accuracy with 68s and 322.

rodauto
09-10-2013, 07:58 PM
Hi Boyd,
The rest is aCaldwell BR, it is the newer version which is quite a bit better than my old rest, problems are;
1. The front bag for the wide fore end is very thin, very little sand makes it quite hard and having problems getting the rifle to sit level in the rest. Rear bag is a caldwell medium hieght bag, need to get a bag with a flat base as this one rocks and shifts on recoil, may be due to no lube on the bag but didn,t think of this until reading some of the forums.
2. The benches at our club are heavy steel frame with plywood tops. Have noticed that depending on where I rest my arm the sight picture changes (not much maybe 1/8 inch cross hairs from line on target) so am sure the bench is shifting slightly.
3. Trying to learn to shoot free recoil, I think it is called, problem is that I shake quite a bit and trying to touch just the trigger is a challenge as my hand is not supported so the shake transfers to the trigger of course. Tried pinching the trigger with thumb on rear of trigger guard, seemed to help but now not free recoil?

Rodney

Boyd Allen
09-11-2013, 07:59 PM
A couple of suggestions:
Improvise some sort of support for your trigger hand/arm.
When I shoot from a bench that moves, I find that I do better if I use my rest to place my cross roughly centered above my final aim point, and then squeeze my bag ears to do my final aiming.
I have looked at the thin bag windage top that you have, and the way that it is constructed allows the top to be moved relative to the base. Some time, you might consider a better windage top on your rest, or just a bag plate, with a conventional 3" bag combined with bag squeezing for final aiming. The shooter with the highest number of points in the Benchrest Hall of fame was a bag squeezer up to the point where he started to have some hand issues and switched to a Farley rest. Until you get a better rear bag, make a short little box to stuff the base of the one you have in (not for sanctioned matches) and lash it in with stout twine. If it rocks, stack up masking tape squares on the high corner of the box, until it doesn't. If the bags are cloth where they touch the stock, use some spray silicone lube on them, if leather baby powder. Stock tape is cheap, you might find that it helps. Try to set yourself up on the bench so that you have very little to no muscle tension, so that sitting in shooting position is effortless. IMO shooters get too wrapped up with trying to shoot free recoil. If it works that is fine, but to be consistent, the bags and rifle balance need to be perfect. With what you have, I would go another way. I have shot some very small groups with my bench rifles, holding them like a deer rifle that would kick me.

rodauto
09-11-2013, 08:39 PM
Thanks Boyd,
My brother in law was also able to get better groups with my rifle shooting it like a regular rifle with shoulder against stock. One of the reasons I am so fasc inated with these rifles is the fact that there are so many ways to play the game. I don,t need to be an expert to play, just need to keep trying something different.

Rodney

Bill Dorsey
09-13-2013, 12:34 AM
I have the same problem with one rifle that I own. I went to CCI BR4 primers and a lot of the problems went away . I also use wolf or Tula Mag primers.
All of them have thicker material in the cups. Those loads are a bit warm to say the least.
I would try a different powder LT32 is a new one that works along with the 2015 and VV 133
Right now everyone is shooting what they can get.



Every bolt I've got that was prone to piercing primers got a firing pin bushing job.

Other folks have gone to CCI BR4s....that works just as well I'm told.

I didn't want to buy any more primers...I already had a boatload of Federals and WSRs.

I don't load extremely hot loads but they ARE on the warm side!!!!!!!!!

Most of my loads were either with 133 or Benchmark. 6MM BR -.100 and 22 PPC -.100

I haven't tried any LT32 yet.

rodauto
09-14-2013, 03:00 PM
Hi Bill,
I am going to try and get some of the LT32 and the VV133 if I can get some, want to complete my load development first with the H322 so I can compare groups with the Berger column bullets I purchased versus the Berger match I am shooting now.
I think I am trying too many different things at once and need to concentrate on what I know for now. When I purchased this rifle it didn't have a butt plate so immediately decided that I needed to shoot free recoil before setting up with a proper rest/ rear bag combo, so I expect load development is suspect due to so many variables I introduced when I started shooting it.


Rodney