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Chism G
08-20-2013, 06:48 PM
I recently came into possession of a device/ gadget that looks like a wind indicator. Its called, "IBALL" Custom Benchrest by Barry Edgley. It came with no instructions. I was able to figure out how to to assemble it and set it up at the Range. I set up one of my wind flags to make a comparison of the sensitivity. I experimented with the balance adjustment in an attempt to get the device to indicate wind currents. We had light winds today, 5-10mph. There must be another part that goes with this probe ,that I'm missing. I had to get out my 150mph leaf blower when I got back home to make it indicate. I am not a big fan of probes. I"m Still struggling with the traditional flag design. This indicator caught my eye for some reason. So I decided to see if it would help improve my wind reading skills.

First thing I noticed was,it seems slow to respond in a side by side comparison with my Graham flags. I could not adjust it to keep up with my wind flags. What advice/opinions can some of the wind flag experts give that will convince me to keep this device in my wind flag box.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a182/chismpi/DSC00103.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/chismpi/media/DSC00103.jpg.html)


Glenn

mks
08-20-2013, 07:13 PM
I recently came into possession of a device/ gadget that looks like a wind indicator. Its called, "IBALL" Custom Benchrest by Barry Edgley. It came with no instructions. I was able to figure out how to to assemble it and set it up at the Range. I set up one of my wind flags to make a comparison of the sensitivity. I experimented with the balance adjustment in an attempt to get the device to indicate wind currents. We had light winds today, 5-10mph. There must be another part that goes with this probe ,that I'm missing. I had to get out my 150mph leaf blower when I got back home to make it indicate. I am not a big fan of probes. I"m Still struggling with the traditional flag design. This indicator caught my eye for some reason. So I decided to see if it would help improve my wind reading skills.

First thing I noticed was,it seems slow to respond in a side by side comparison with my Graham flags. I could not adjust it to keep up with my wind flags. What advice/opinions can some of the wind flag experts give that will convince me to keep this device in my wind flag box.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a182/chismpi/DSC00103.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/chismpi/media/DSC00103.jpg.html)


Glenn

You should be seeing some significant deflection in a 10 mph wind. Two keys to indicators are balance and low friction. Move the lower weight up toward the pivot until the ball swings down and stays there. Now move the weight back the other way ever so slightly until the ball stays up. The balance is now as sensitive as you can get it to be. To test for friction, move the ball to one side a few inches, and then let it go. If it doesn't recenter, there is too much friction in the pivot.

Hope this helps,
Keith

Jerry H
08-20-2013, 07:13 PM
The ball does not have enough drag for moderate winds let alone light wind. It will likely work better in a narrow band of heavy winds.

abintx
08-20-2013, 07:21 PM
I'm not sure what that apparatus is. Here's the real thing designed by Gene Beggs: http://www.killoughshootingsports.com/index.php/red-wind-probe.html :)

Chism G
08-20-2013, 08:17 PM
The ball does not have enough drag for moderate winds let alone light wind. It will likely work better in a narrow band of heavy winds.


Jerry,as you know, we have some pretty heavy winds,on occasion, down here in Texas. I haven't seen this model in use in our area,that I recall. I need one that will work in all kinds of wind.



Glenn

Jerry H
08-20-2013, 08:33 PM
Most flags show angle in most wind velocities. Probes, tails, and vanes have a narrow velocity window that can usually be adjusted. Propellers have a wider range of speeds but some people can not learn to read them and there can significant differences in the designs. As far as "works in all kinds of wind", function, yes. That is not likely in conventional flag design as far as readability though.

mks
08-20-2013, 09:59 PM
Probes ... have a narrow velocity window ...

My probes, which I think respond to wind speed about the same as Beggs', read from 1 mph up to about 15-20 mph. I don't know the actual upper speed, because I haven't calibrated them to wind speed, but rather to bullet deflection. At wind speeds that say "don't shoot" to me, the probe is still reading changes in velocity. I have occasionally seen them maxed out, but not often. If that is a narrow range, then I am not qualified to shoot in Texas!:D

Jerry H
08-20-2013, 11:03 PM
They may well max at 15-20 but can you tell the amount difference between an actual measured 15 and 20 mph wind speed at flag height? If not, that range is not usable. It is more likely very readable below 8 mph actual wind speed. Also, there is a severe non linearity with the change in angle of attack on a tail, probe, or vane. Gene's probe scale was equal segments on his scale. Are yours spaced to account for this non linear display? If so, then maybe they have a wider than normal range of readability. I have never seen them, so I don't know about your design. Depending on whose design and how it is weighted, the useful window of speed change that can be interpreted is about 7 mph in sub 10 mph actual wind. Propellers are slightly wider, again this varies a lot more or less depending on design and friction. Side note, the highest weather channel reported winds I ever shot BR in were not in Texas, but Iowa. Ask Robinnette about that one!

Barry Edgley
08-20-2013, 11:44 PM
Glen
It seems that the instructions have not been provided. The pic looks like you have all the pieces so I will send you some instructions and that should sort out most of the issues mentioned. If you require further assistance after using the instructions please email me.
They are electromagnetically damped and while there are limits to everything the damping has extended the useful range and have performed well from light to fairly strong conditions.
Barry Edgley

Jerry H
08-21-2013, 12:37 AM
Varying the electromagnetic resistance could certainly compensate for the inherent linearity issue. A novel approach indeed! Good idea.

Chism G
08-21-2013, 08:53 AM
Barry....Thanks for the instructions. I will be in touch.


Jerry...Thanks for the lesson in wind flag design. Wish I understood all the tech talk. There's not enough talk about Wind Flags and their important contribution to shrinking Aggs.




Glenn

mks
08-21-2013, 10:00 AM
They may well max at 15-20 but can you tell the amount difference between an actual measured 15 and 20 mph wind speed at flag height? If not, that range is not usable. It is more likely very readable below 8 mph actual wind speed. Also, there is a severe non linearity with the change in angle of attack on a tail, probe, or vane. Gene's probe scale was equal segments on his scale. Are yours spaced to account for this non linear display? If so, then maybe they have a wider than normal range of readability. I have never seen them, so I don't know about your design. Depending on whose design and how it is weighted, the useful window of speed change that can be interpreted is about 7 mph in sub 10 mph actual wind. Propellers are slightly wider, again this varies a lot more or less depending on design and friction. Side note, the highest weather channel reported winds I ever shot BR in were not in Texas, but Iowa. Ask Robinnette about that one!

Jerry,
Below is the estimated response of the probes, which shows the nonlinearity you are talking about. The actual response I think is a little more nonlinear. But the nonlinearity, even if it were not so conveniently supplied by the velocity squared drag on the indicator and the trigonometry of the pivot, is something that I would try to design in. I want the probe to be most sensitive in low wind, but still be readable in moderate wind. That way, it is giving me the best information in the type of winds I most often shoot, and still some information in the unusual winds. I can think of maybe two matches in four years where frequent gusts pushed probe deflection above 80 degrees. We almost never get steady winds. The strategy was to wait for less deflection, which almost always worked. I guess that makes two states I have no business shooting in! :D
14103

Oh, and to answer your question, the difference in deflection between 15 and 20 mph is about 3 degrees, so marginally readable. But the difference between 10 and 15 mph is about 8 degrees, which is easily readable. I rarely pull the trigger in this much wind, so it isn't important to me. What is more important is to see the switches, and to see them as soon as possible.

Cheers,
Keith

Jerry H
08-21-2013, 03:55 PM
You have a lot more understanding of how probes function than most! My SmartFlag1(string/strain gauge sensor) was extremely accurate in the crosswind at all wind speeds but lacking in a +/-30 degree wide area of the null. While probe types have a similar weakness, I went ahead with SmartFlag2 (probe/pendulum sensor) which gave up some accuracy in the crosswind but handled the quarter to null wind better. SmartFlag3 added a supplemental direction sensor and was never really evaluated properly, but I feel it was better all around than #2, particularly around the null. SmartFlag4 is a speed sensor(anemometer) feeding a direction sensor using a similar and proper angle nonlinearity effect of actual ballistics(small direction change near 90 means nothing while it means a lot near null). Since I don't shoot anymore, a West coast BR shooter has it currently under evaluation. I should hear something in a few weeks. None of these will beat #1 in a crosswind at all speeds but I hope #4 can beat it overall in all other combinations of winds. You almost never get a consistent crosswind from barrel to target anyhow. Most of the time, there is some sort of mixture, and of course as soon as you get it figured out, it changed again! I just like to keep looking for a better mousetrap.

Bill Wynne
08-22-2013, 07:22 AM
I truly wish that I understood what these things do. I have used them and find they some how help. I seem to be missing the science in this thing. I am not sure there is more superstition than science involved here.

Concho Bill

Butch Lambert
08-22-2013, 11:09 AM
Glenn,
I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

Apollo
08-22-2013, 11:19 AM
I have found that a probe, when used with wind flags, will tell me more of when not to shoot than when to shoot.

Stanley

Chism G
08-22-2013, 12:48 PM
Glenn,
I guess no good deed goes unpunished.


Where is the punishment??? I haven't used them yet. The deed has nothing to do with my curiosity. When I figure out how to set this device up, It may show me something that improves my scores. I'm learning something from this discussion that I didn't already know about wind flag technology. Mr Edgley has been very helpful with instructions. I'm still optimistic about the application and I assure you that this probe will be put to use at the next match that I attend.





Glenn

Butch Lambert
08-22-2013, 01:09 PM
I should have posted a smiley face.

mks
08-22-2013, 01:13 PM
SmartFlag4 is a speed sensor(anemometer) feeding a direction sensor using a similar and proper angle nonlinearity effect of actual ballistics.

IBS only allows electronic flags in Heavy Bench, but NBRSA and UBR don't mention them at all, so I could use them for some matches, but not others. That was my reason for developing non electronic flags. But I am intrigued by the possibility that outputs from electronic flags reading speed AND direction could be fed into a computer program to give the shooter a simple, accurate, real-time display of where to aim based on the integrated effect from all the flags. One of the most difficult things about flags is trying to estimate POA when each flag is doing something different, and switching so fast that there is not time to punch it into a calculator. A computer program could do this faster than the time it takes to look from the scope to the computer screen.

Jerry H
08-22-2013, 02:37 PM
Actually, a computer is not needed at all. All of the system signal voltage is done by setting a knob on each sensor. A simple digital voltmeter will give a relative +/- voltage that is indicative of R/L distance from center. The computer just gives a graphic view of what that signal voltage is doing on a target image. All of the "smarts" are in the sensor setting by the user based on what they feel is the relative value between sensors on the overall signal level. In other words, accuracy is dependent on the shooters wind reading skills. He can simply see the total value of these flags with more precision. Right or wrong, he has preset what he thinks each flag is worth on the total condition. So far, I have not gotten SF4 to work with the ADC due to its extremely low signal voltages that it uses vs the previous versions. No computer for it. Soooo primative!!:mad:

Chism G
08-22-2013, 03:48 PM
Well .I have been looking at wind flags for about 14 years now. I can say ,without reservation,that I don't need a Probe to tell me when NOT to shoot. My flags tell me when NOT to shoot,I just don't believe them. I am convinced that sometimes my flags just plain lie. Over the years,I have become what I call "Flag dependent" That is, I try to watch my flags as close as my 70 year old eyes will allow. Sometimes the bullets just don't go where my flags say they should. Something keeps telling me that there is a,yet to be discovered, wind flag out there that is 100% reliable. I'm still searching.

I have watched probes at registered matches,but I am not convinced that the ones I've observed offer any advantage over the traditional style flag. Maybe I just don't know what to look for.
Since I currently have this( new to me) probe design in my possession.I welcome any suggestions on how to take advantage of the technology. (The original purpose of my post)

Over the years I have observed Jerry Hensler using high tech wind reading devices that he designed. They all seem to work. I call him the wind flag guru. It's good to know that somebody is working behind the scene, in efforts to help us get a handle on reading the wind. Thanks Jerry.


Glenn

Apollo
08-22-2013, 04:58 PM
For me, it is easy to see a change in direction of the flags. It is hard (for me) to see a 3, 4, or 5 mph change in the tails of flags. The probe(s) make this change easier to see. Especially when a condition goes away and then comes back. When the flags/tails look the same as the last shot, but the probe is different from before - I know that I am missing something in the tails and not to shoot.

I hope the probe works for you. It looks like a cool design and very easy to read.

Stanley

mks
08-22-2013, 05:05 PM
Actually, a computer is not needed at all. All of the system signal voltage is done by setting a knob on each sensor. A simple digital voltmeter will give a relative +/- voltage that is indicative of R/L distance from center. The computer just gives a graphic view of what that signal voltage is doing on a target image. All of the "smarts" are in the sensor setting by the user based on what they feel is the relative value between sensors on the overall signal level. In other words, accuracy is dependent on the shooters wind reading skills. He can simply see the total value of these flags with more precision. Right or wrong, he has preset what he thinks each flag is worth on the total condition. So far, I have not gotten SF4 to work with the ADC due to its extremely low signal voltages that it uses vs the previous versions. No computer for it. Soooo primative!!:mad:

You add the voltages together from all flags? Simple, I like it. Could be calibrated to 1 volt = 1 inch of deflection. The voltage total is accurate if the flags are placed at the locations that give equal weight (bullet deflection) to each flag. Easy enough to find the right locations with external ballistics equations. You could set the flags each time with a range finder. One thing a single voltage can't do is tell the shooter how much up/down the POA should be shifted for tail/head winds. Wind direction and speed information is all that is needed to calculate both left/right and up/down corrections. I suppose you could use some sort of voltage divider to get the cross wind and tail/head components, but it is not a linear division. At that point, maybe it would be time to switch to digital.

mks
08-22-2013, 05:21 PM
For me, it is easy to see a change in direction of the flags. It is hard (for me) to see a 3, 4, or 5 mph change in the tails of flags. The probe(s) make this change easier to see.

Stanley

After having used my combination flags/probes (one of each on each pole) for a while now, I have to admit that I have to remind myself to also look at the flags. The cross wind deflection is usually the larger problem to worry about, and the probes are reading that. So concentrating on the probes often works. For stronger cross wind of the same direction, it is a matter of dialing in more left/right adjustment along with a (usually) small proportional adjustment up/down. What one has to be careful of is when the probes stay the same, but the flags have switched. You can miss up/down by a surprisingly wide margin in a strong head-to-tail switch or vice versa.:(

Jerry H
08-22-2013, 05:59 PM
Actually each flag has a settable voltage output relative to deflection amount. This way the flags can be spaced in equal segments so as to cover all of the segments equally. By using a constant voltage for each, you would only cover the close end which would leave huge gaps in the last 70% of the distance.

mks
08-22-2013, 06:11 PM
Actually each flag has a settable voltage output relative to deflection amount. This way the flags can be spaced in equal segments so as to cover all of the segments equally. By using a constant voltage for each, you would only cover the close end which would leave huge gaps in the last 70% of the distance.

So you have a display at the bench that has a reading for each flag? And the shooter has to decide which are more important, just like looking at nonelectronic flags?

Jerry H
08-22-2013, 06:20 PM
Each flag is in series on one conductor of speaker wire pair to the bench, so you read the total signal of all flags summed.

mks
08-23-2013, 08:49 AM
Each flag is in series on one conductor of speaker wire pair to the bench, so you read the total signal of all flags summed.

OK, I get it now. And you adjust the gain for each equally-spaced flag to weight its contribution to bullet deflection?

When I set my flags, I place them at closer intervals near the bench and wider intervals near the target, to account for the decreasing deflection caused by wind as the bullet gets closer to the target. This accomplishes essentially the same thing.

Thanks,
Keith

Jerry H
08-23-2013, 08:57 AM
That's it.

Jerry H
08-23-2013, 09:04 AM
Here is the voltage track representation on a net-book. It has a menu item to adjust the track near null to account for the vertical you mentioned earlier. With a voltmeter just hold up/down on the close to 0 volts readings instead of L/R.

mks
08-23-2013, 01:26 PM
Here is the voltage track representation on a net-book. It has a menu item to adjust the track near null to account for the vertical you mentioned earlier. With a voltmeter just hold up/down on the close to 0 volts readings instead of L/R.

Very nice!

Andy Cross
09-01-2013, 06:49 PM
One issue with flags and probes is that they are below the flight path a bullet will take. A few years ago I placed flags in pairs one beside each other. One at the leagle height and the other at a height placing it in the middle of the target. Then watched. As the ground warmed up the lower flags were doing different movements the the high ones. Sometimes complete reversals of one another. If someone can work out how to place flags right in the line of sight and stll allow you to shoot it will eliminate a real issue. They might even get nominated for the Nobel prize.
Andy.

Charles E
09-01-2013, 08:59 PM
...They might even get nominated for the Nobel prize.
Andy.Yes, but the prize wil be for getting NBRSA to change their current rules. The small technical problem you mention is trivial compared to that...

It won't be the peace prize, that's for sure. Maybe the one for literature?

Chism G
09-02-2013, 12:42 PM
One issue with flags and probes is that they are below the flight path a bullet will take. A few years ago I placed flags in pairs one beside each other. One at the leagle height and the other at a height placing it in the middle of the target. Then watched. As the ground warmed up the lower flags were doing different movements the the high ones. Sometimes complete reversals of one another. If someone can work out how to place flags right in the line of sight and stll allow you to shoot it will eliminate a real issue. They might even get nominated for the Nobel prize.
Andy.


So Andy.....Are you saying that..setting flags higher and closer to the line of sight...will eliminate a real issue? What's the issue?




Glenn

Butch Lambert
09-02-2013, 12:51 PM
Glenn,
He doesn't shoot in Texas. I went outside to duplicate his test. Both of my flags moved the same. I could only get a 6 foot difference in height with my stands. I guess I think the most important thing would be a flag at bullet path height.

Chism G
09-02-2013, 01:17 PM
Yeah Butch...Its kinda of puzzling, to a Wind Flag Dummy like me. I kinda thought that he might be referring to thermals coming up from the ground as the outside temperature increases. Reminds me of shooting at the Range at Tomball,Tx. At 9:00AM,at the start of a match,the flags are dead still. I mean eeerily still. We call it a trigger pull condition down here in Texas. I shot a .500 group at 100yds. A lots a people shot some big groups. It's not rifle tune. The next match I shot a mid one.

Weird. Where's Jerry Hensler?




Glenn

Jerry H
09-02-2013, 01:29 PM
Safe at home.:)

Andy Cross
09-02-2013, 06:44 PM
Glenn,
He doesn't shoot in Texas. I went outside to duplicate his test. Both of my flags moved the same. I could only get a 6 foot difference in height with my stands. I guess I think the most important thing would be a flag at bullet path height.

Yep flags in the bullet flight path. Depending on the terrain of the range the temperature of the day and how much the ground can heat up and cool down you can get quite different flag indications from those placed in the flight path of the bullet compared to those where you would normally place them. Both conditions will influence one another but. I am in the process of designing an thermal IR interferometer that might help deal with this condition.
Andy.

Butch Lambert
09-02-2013, 07:10 PM
Ok

Andy Cross
09-03-2013, 02:04 AM
I have attached a jpeg of what a thermal IR interferometer image looks like. This was done as a lash up on peg board for proof of concept. Gota find some way of getting the cost of building one down to something sane.
Andy

ray porter
09-03-2013, 08:19 AM
mmmmmm

do you drink it or snort i? before or after a match?

blades
09-03-2013, 08:43 AM
Likely an snort before and a big shot after. Nerves you know.

Chism G
09-03-2013, 09:09 AM
Looks like a paint job I saw on a Volkswagen Bus , in San Francisco, in 1970.

Curious to see how it works.




Glenn

mks
09-03-2013, 10:31 AM
I have attached a jpeg of what a thermal IR interferometer image looks like. This was done as a lash up on peg board for proof of concept. Gota find some way of getting the cost of building one down to something sane.
Andy

Andy,
Interesting. I have heard of interferometry to measure machined surfaces, and in combination with Doppler to measure the velocity of planets, but never to measure wind velocity. Is this what you expect to measure? How does that work?

In principle, Doppler radar (like on the weather channel) could be used to map wind velocity across the entire range. But the cycle time for weather Doppler is 4-6 minutes. Talk about slow flags!;)

Thanks,
Keith

Andy Cross
09-03-2013, 06:52 PM
Andy,
Interesting. I have heard of interferometry to measure machined surfaces, and in combination with Doppler to measure the velocity of planets, but never to measure wind velocity. Is this what you expect to measure? How does that work?

In principle, Doppler radar (like on the weather channel) could be used to map wind velocity across the entire range. But the cycle time for weather Doppler is 4-6 minutes. Talk about slow flags!;)

Thanks,
Keith

Interferometers are essentially comparators. They compare one signal with another. In this case the white light signal being reflected from the target with the - normally felt but not seen - thermal IR signal. This image was created by sending the combined and overlapped signals to a chip loaded with Nikon firmware used in a D700. So how it interpreted the data is anyones guess. But with specifically written software it could map the air currents induced by heat which is what generates the mirage. IF you were to record one static image from when the first shot was fired and compare it with a live feed for the remaining shots in combination with the flags it could help. Even when there doesn't seem to be any mirage this would pick it up and make it visible. I'll keep picking away at the project.
Andy.

Ian_Owen
09-04-2013, 06:31 AM
Yeah Butch...Its kinda of puzzling, to a Wind Flag Dummy like me. I kinda thought that he might be referring to thermals coming up from the ground as the outside temperature increases. Reminds me of shooting at the Range at Tomball,Tx. At 9:00AM,at the start of a match,the flags are dead still. I mean eeerily still. We call it a trigger pull condition down here in Texas. I shot a .500 group at 100yds. A lots a people shot some big groups. It's not rifle tune. The next match I shot a mid one.

Weird. Where's Jerry Hensler?




Glenn

Glenn that happens here in New Zealand also.......I hate shooting when the flags aren't showing anything, you're just about guaranteed a big group......Ian

Chism G
09-04-2013, 10:41 AM
Hi Ian,

Looks like it may be a World wide phenomenon. It gets even weirder. A hand full of shooters at the same match I described, drilled little dots. Usually,its not the top shooters.

Some of the experts caution against tuning your rifle in dead calm conditions,and I think it makes sense. However,I don't have any facts/experience to corroborate that opinion. I tuned my rifle,the day before the match, in what I call, light conditions. My rifle was shooting little dots. I went to bed Friday night feeling confident that I would not totally embarrass myself the next day. (Sound Familiar). At the start of the match on Saturday Morning,My wind flags were dead still. I saw nothing that explains why I ended up with a .500 group at 100yds. I definitely did not have a hang over and I paid close attention to bag handling. Something else is going on down at The Tomball Rifle range and around the Country that nobody seems interested in talking about. "SHOOTING WHEN THERE IS NO WIND"



Glenn

Gene Beggs
09-04-2013, 02:18 PM
[QUOTE=Chism G;715373]Hi Ian,

Looks like it may be a World wide phenomenon. It gets even weirder. A hand full of shooters at the same match I described, drilled little dots. Usually,its not the top shooters.

Some of the experts caution against tuning your rifle in dead calm conditions,and I think it makes sense. However,I don't have any facts/experience to corroborate that opinion. I tuned my rifle,the day before the match, in what I call, light conditions. My rifle was shooting little dots. I went to bed Friday night feeling confident that I would not totally embarrass myself the next day. (Sound Familiar). At the start of the match on Saturday Morning,My wind flags were dead still. I saw nothing that explains why I ended up with a .500 group at 100yds. I definitely did not have a hang over and I paid close attention to bag handling. Something else is going on down at The Tomball Rifle range and around the Country that nobody seems interested in talking about. "SHOOTING WHEN THERE IS NO WIND"




Glenn, your thread has been most interesting, lots of good discussion here. There were two things you said that sent up a red flag to me:

1. "I tuned my rifle the day before the match,,,,"

2. "Something else is going on that nobody seems interested in talking about."



If you tune your rifle the day before the match it will most likely be done in the heat of the afternoon when temperature is much warmer than it will be early next morning. If you tune the rifle when temp is 90 degrees and preload for the first match tomorrow morning when temp is 70 degrees, you will be completely out of tune when you go to the line. Unless you have a tuner installed, you're stuck with twenty rounds that are loaded about .6 grains too light. That's one of the advantages of a tuner; you can correct for an out of tune condition during the match at the line before going to the record. :cool:



In (2) above you mention there is something else going on that nobody seems interested in talking about. Darn right there is; it's called wake turbulence. :eek:

Wake turbulence? :eek: Yep, and it's most dangerous in dead calm conditions. :eek:

There are actually three components to the wake turbulence we shooters are faced with;

1. Ring vortices created by the muzzle blast. (This has nothing to do with the projectile.)

2. The wake left behind the supersonic bullet.

3. The column of extremely hot gases that are blasted into the much cooler atmosphere.


Bear in mind that all this commotion is blasted right down the flight path of all succeeding shots, and if conditions are dead calm, it will hang there and rotate for a surprisingly long time.

"So,,, what can be done about it?" you ask.

Well, for one thing, you can wait; wait for a little breeze to come along and drift the stuff out of your way.

The other option is to wait longer between shots. (This is one time when you don't want to 'machine gun' your record shots.)

Discussion?

Later,

Gene Beggs

Chism G
09-04-2013, 04:43 PM
Hi Gene,

Thanks for joining this discussion. You offer a viable explanation as to what may be happening on those cool mornings at Tom Ball,Tx. Your background in Aviation/physicis places you heads above my simple approach to the Sport. After thirteen years, this stuff is still a learning experience for me. As the Old Folks used to say,You're never too old to learn. I wouldn't have it any other way. Having said that. I'll share my personal experience(s) with the forum in hopes that the competitors who are more experienced than me will sort out the Physics,Which you have so eloquently done.

I seldom preload for a Match. When I do,its usually on Saturday afternoon in preparation for the early start (8:00AM) on Sunday. I know that I may have to change something after the first match on Sunday morning. I say" may",because there are times when I start off with a good group,with preloaded ammo. Especially when I'm shooting my favorite lot of 8208. VT-133 is a whole different story.I never know what to expect. In my thirteen years of addiction with this Sport,I have found few absolutes. It could be because I haven;t paid that much attention. Too busy having fun. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I recognize "Wake Turbulence" as something that occurs while flying Airplanes. I used to hear some of my Co-workers(Pilots) talk about it on my old job. I had no clue how much this phenomenon would affect bullet flight. My contention has been,if the flags aint telling you what's going on in front of the bench,you're just SOL. I'm not a good Mirage reader. Thanks for the explanation.

We recently held the UNL(10 shot) and HV at the NTSA(Denton,Tx). I took my newly acquired Rail Gun up to Denton on Friday and by late afternoon,I found a Tune that was shooting little bitty five shot groups.

The first Match on a cool Saturday morning,with the same load(Preloaded),in calm conditions, I shot a .166 ten shot group. Won the small group award for the UNL phase of the match. I shot em as fast as I could,which is not record breaking,but fast. There was plenty of turbulence out in front of the benches from the Rails blasting away. Maybe I just got lucky, Don't know. I went down hill after shooting that screamer. I own a couple of tuners but haven't learned how to use them.

I,however,accomplished my goal,of having fun and hanging out with some fun people.

Good to see you posting.


Glenn

Butch Lambert
09-04-2013, 05:29 PM
Glenn,
We found a good place to eat in Arkansas didn't we.

Andy Cross
09-04-2013, 06:31 PM
[QUOTE=Chism G;715373]Hi Ian,

Wake turbulence? :eek: Yep, and it's most dangerous in dead calm conditions. :eek:

There are actually three components to the wake turbulence we shooters are faced with;

1. Ring vortices created by the muzzle blast. (This has nothing to do with the projectile.)

2. The wake left behind the supersonic bullet.

3. The column of extremely hot gases that are blasted into the much cooler atmosphere.

Gene Beggs

These are the types of mysteries the interferometer would pick up and display. Being able to see the condition the flags probably don't respond to and find out how they affect a bullet will be a big learning curve. But you can't do that without the tools.
Andy.

Chism G
09-04-2013, 09:00 PM
Glenn,
We found a good place to eat in Arkansas didn't we.


The "Poor Horse Grill". It was better last year. They must have changed cooks. If I had to vote on the best place to eat in Arkansas,it would be the food that match director John Henry's wife Remy lays out for lunch at the Range.

It don't get too much better than that.



Glenn

Chism G
09-04-2013, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=Gene Beggs;715390]

These are the types of mysteries the interferometer would pick up and display. Being able to see the condition the flags probably don't respond to and find out how they affect a bullet will be a big learning curve. But you can't do that without the tools.
Andy.

Andy,as I stated earlier. I'm "flag dependent". I've gotten to the point where I almost believe em. I've been in Airplanes when they hit turbulence. It can be pretty scary. One time, It was so bad,I swore I'd never fly again.

I have shot in a left to right condition and the bullet went the opposite direction. My scope was not bad(Verified). Maybe your discovery will provide some insight as to why this happens.



Glenn

DeltaBravo
09-05-2013, 12:46 AM
Gene, Glenn, Andy,

Is there any consistency to the effects of these gun/bullet-induced turbulences or vortices? If I have an absolutely DEAD day, no wind at all, flags just sitting there, can I expect my bullets to be deflected one direction only, or is it random? If I wait long enough for the initial turbulence to go away, will my bullet deflection repeat in direction and magnitude?

Is any of the turbulence related to rate and direction of twist? I can imagine that the hot gases being ejected behind the bullet would corkscrew in alignment with the rifling - clockwise for a right hand twist for example - but have no proof. More for a fast twist, less for a slower twist?

Geez, you guys really know how to scramble someone's brain cells!:p

Dennis

alinwa
09-05-2013, 01:29 AM
Dead calm works a little better here in the Left than elsewhere I think...... SOMETIMES I can shoot little ones in the calm here in WA.

Other times you'd best just wait until the wind blows......if it's dead calm and there's air in the group??? Just walk away!

Also, I can and do shoot 24-7 and 365 here at the house and can state that shooting at night under lights is a complete waste of energy in the calm and shooting over snow in calm is a waste day or night IME.

Now if it's calm and raining or snowing, you're golden :) rain and snow may be the best windflags.

al

Chism G
09-05-2013, 10:00 AM
Safe at home.:)




Jerry...This looks like some type of wind flag. How does it work? If you can talk about it.




Glenn

Chism G
09-05-2013, 10:44 AM
I've shot some small groups,at a match,where the air in front of the benches was turbulent from gun blasts. I have also had some unexplained flyers in the same conditions. Some of them "Where did that come" shots. It's gotta be something that the traditional flag designs are not indicating. As explained by Gene and Andy.

A Turbulence Story: I was on a shuttle flight from Washington,DC to New York City back in the 80's. It was about a 45 minute flight from Washington National to Laguardia Airport. Due to the short flt time,we(passengers) only had time for coffee,juice,etc. I ordered a big coffee. The flight was bumpy when we took off from National Airport. Real Bumpy. It was so quite in the cabin of that aircraft,you could hear a mouse fart at a Rock Concert. About half way through the trip,the airplane suddenly dropped what felt like 200 feet(Guessing)

All of The Coffee came out of my cup and suspended in midair. The Aircraft came back to level and the coffee and other liquids sprayed throughout the cabin. I heard blood curdling screams,my suit was messed up from coffee stains and I did not have an extra. Swore I'd never fly again.

On a smaller scale,imagine what turbulence can do to bullets fired at a benchrest match. If your flags don't tell you its there, You're,literally just pissing in the wind.


Glenn

Jerry H
09-05-2013, 10:52 AM
Smartflag 4 is a speed sensor (anemometer) feeding a direction sensor (vane) using a similar non-linear effect of actual ballistics (small direction change near 90 means nothing while it means a lot near null). This electro-mechanical combo of a speed and direction signal is the resultant relative displacement from center expressed as a DC voltage.

Apollo
09-05-2013, 11:00 AM
A couple things to keep in mind when shots don't go where they are supposed to in a properly tuned, mechanically sound rifle:

1. Mirage. Mirage trumps windflags and does not always go in the same direction the flags are showing. One thing that I look for when there is mirage: wait for the mirage to be different than the flags - then watch for the first flag to follow mirage. That flag is pretty important. (not implying that they are not all important - just that is a "must hit" flag.
2. Assuming you use 4 flags at 100 yds. Each flag is roughly 1/8" thick, but let's say they are turned sideways and call it a foot. 4x12" = 48" If you are looking only at flags you are only seeing 48" of 100 yds or 48" in 3,600"= 1.3% of the range. Flag placement is critical. One thing I like to do is walk the range and just feel when there is a wind change. Drop a pole there and continue on down the range. Make needed adjustments from there.

Stanley

Chism G
09-05-2013, 11:08 AM
Smartflag 4 is a speed sensor (anemometer) feeding a direction sensor (vane) using a similar non-linear effect of actual ballistics (small direction change near 90 means nothing while it means a lot near null). This electro-mechanical combo of a speed and direction signal is the resultant relative displacement from center expressed as a DC voltage.


I knew that:D




Glenn

Charles E
09-05-2013, 01:20 PM
A Turbulence Story: ...

About that mouse...We (well, you) take planes because part of their design involves aerodynamic lift. Defying gravity over time. A long time. In fact, that's kinda the whole purpose of them.

Bullets just succumb to gravity without paying much attention to lift. Just a little, as an accident of needing twist. Wind drift with bullets, we are told, is a function of drag, as the nose re-orients to the center pressure. Now, aside from the element of mirage, I don't quite see how turbulence affects a bullet all that much.

Here's the mouse part. I remember shooting Match 1, 8:00am, Charlotte, 300 yard SER championships. If you put the crosshairs on the mothball line, simultaneously top & side, it was amazing to watch them move. Not much, but from inside to outside of the line. Oddly enough, shot dispersion correlated to that movement, but magnified. So, I found if I waited with a shot until they finished moving (it was usually a pattern), I didn't get unpleasant surprises.

I have no idea if this means anything or not.

Gene Beggs
09-05-2013, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=Chism G;714427]I recently came into possession of a device/ gadget that looks like a wind indicator. Its called, "IBALL" Custom Benchrest by Barry Edgley. It came with no instructions. I was able to figure out how to to assemble it and set it up at the Range. I set up one of my wind flags to make a comparison of the sensitivity. I experimented with the balance adjustment in an attempt to get the device to indicate wind currents. We had light winds today, 5-10mph. There must be another part that goes with this probe ,that I'm missing. I had to get out my 150mph leaf blower when I got back home to make it indicate. I am not a big fan of probes. I"m Still struggling with the traditional flag design. This indicator caught my eye for some reason. So I decided to see if it would help improve my wind reading skills.

First thing I noticed was,it seems slow to respond in a side by side comparison with my Graham flags. I could not adjust it to keep up with my wind flags. What advice/opinions can some of the wind flag experts give that will convince me to keep this device in my wind flag box.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a182/chismpi/DSC00103.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/chismpi/media/DSC00103.jpg.html)




Glenn, we got a little off subject during this discussion. Sorry 'bout that. :o :(

Your original post concerned a device/gadget you had come into possession of that you said, "looked like a wind indicator." You also mentioned Wind Probe in the same breath. :eek: You further stated that you were not a fan of probes and that you were still struggling with traditional flag design. I think I can help you my friend. :)

First of all, the device/gadget you show in your first post is certainly not a wind probe. :mad: I spent many years developing the genuine Beggs Wind Probe and that thing isn't even a crude attempt. I'll say no more. :rolleyes: Maybe I've already said too much but you're a friend and I don't want to see you wasting your time with that thing. :mad:

As many of you know, I'm retired and no longer produce the Beggs Wind Probe in significant numbers. I still have components on hand and put one together once in a while for a friend but for the most part I'm a lazy old man enjoying retirement immensely. :)

A while back, Dan Killough, chief honcho at American Rimfire Association called asking my permission to start building Wind Probes. I said, "Just get right after it as long as you don't call it a Beggs Wind Probe because they are available only from me in very limited quantity." I have great confidence in and highest regards for Dan Killough. I'm sure anything he produces and sells will be good quality but I have not examined and tested the probes he is building. I believe he calls them, 'The Red Probe.'

Anyway, back to how I think I can help my friend, Glenn Chism. :) Glenn, you've come a long way in this obsession we call benchrest and have made excellent progress while having a great time making lots of new friends. I started down the same road in 1987 so I know exactly where you're coming from. I wish I could have started much sooner before I got so darned old and lost my competitive spirit but a man can only do justice to one serious endeavor at a time. Although I no longer shoot in matches, I'm still very much involved in research, developement, teaching and coaching. I've learned a thing or two during my twenty-six years of involvement with extreme rifle accuracy. Now that the match season is winding down and fall will soon be upon us, I hope you can load up and drive out to Odessa/Midland for a visit. I'll bet I can show you some things you didn't know; especially about reading the wind. :p

Later,

Gene Beggs

Chism G
09-05-2013, 03:34 PM
[QUOTE=Chism G;714427]I recently came into possession of a device/ gadget that looks like a wind indicator. Its called, "IBALL" Custom Benchrest by Barry Edgley. It came with no instructions. I was able to figure out how to to assemble it and set it up at the Range. I set up one of my wind flags to make a comparison of the sensitivity. I experimented with the balance adjustment in an attempt to get the device to indicate wind currents. We had light winds today, 5-10mph. There must be another part that goes with this probe ,that I'm missing. I had to get out my 150mph leaf blower when I got back home to make it indicate. I am not a big fan of probes. I"m Still struggling with the traditional flag design. This indicator caught my eye for some reason. So I decided to see if it would help improve my wind reading skills.

First thing I noticed was,it seems slow to respond in a side by side comparison with my Graham flags. I could not adjust it to keep up with my wind flags. What advice/opinions can some of the wind flag experts give that will convince me to keep this device in my wind flag box.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a182/chismpi/DSC00103.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/chismpi/media/DSC00103.jpg.html)




Glenn, we got a little off subject during this discussion. Sorry 'bout that. :o :(

Your original post concerned a device/gadget you had come into possession of that you said, "looked like a wind indicator." You also mentioned Wind Probe in the same breath. :eek: You further stated that you were not a fan of probes and that you were still struggling with traditional flag design. I think I can help you my friend. :)

First of all, the device/gadget you show in your first post is certainly not a wind probe. :mad: I spent many years developing the genuine Beggs Wind Probe and that thing isn't even a crude attempt. I'll say no more. :rolleyes: Maybe I've already said too much but you're a friend and I don't want to see you wasting your time with that thing. :mad:

As many of you know, I'm retired and no longer produce the Beggs Wind Probe in significant numbers. I still have components on hand and put one together once in a while for a friend but for the most part I'm a lazy old man enjoying retirement immensely. :)

A while back, Dan Killough, chief honcho at American Rimfire Association called asking my permission to start building Wind Probes. I said, "Just get right after it as long as you don't call it a Beggs Wind Probe because they are available only from me in very limited quantity." I have great confidence in and highest regards for Dan Killough. I'm sure anything he produces and sells will be good quality but I have not examined and tested the probes he is building. I believe he calls them, 'The Red Probe.'

Anyway, back to how I think I can help my friend, Glenn Chism. :) Glenn, you've come a long way in this obsession we call benchrest and have made excellent progress while having a great time making lots of new friends. I started down the same road in 1987 so I know exactly where you're coming from. I wish I could have started much sooner before I got so darned old and lost my competitive spirit but a man can only do justice to one serious endeavor at a time. Although I no longer shoot in matches, I'm still very much involved in research, developement, teaching and coaching. I've learned a thing or two during my twenty-six years of involvement with extreme rifle accuracy. Now that the match season is winding down and fall will soon be upon us, I hope you can load up and drive out to Odessa/Midland for a visit. I'll bet I can show you some things you didn't know; especially about reading the wind. :p

Later,

Gene Beggs




Smart move Gene. Thanks for taking this discussion back to the original question. Thanks for "Pulling My Coat" and I'll leave it at that. It's fun and sometimes informative to have a little internet chat about your favorite hobby.

I may take you up your offer to visit with you. No bets on what you can teach me. I'm a dummy when it comes to reading the wind. I want to know more about "Wake Turbulence"


Take care


Glenn

Butch Lambert
09-05-2013, 04:36 PM
Glenn,
What did Barry Edgley tell you? Remember, I have the proper balls for it and other hardware. I don't know how to set them up, but Barry could tell you.

Chism G
09-05-2013, 06:24 PM
Glenn,
What did Barry Edgley tell you? Remember, I have the proper balls for it and other hardware. I don't know how to set them up, but Barry could tell you.


Got the instructions. Put it together. Played with it. I'll do more testing when I get to the range.




Glenn

Gene Beggs
09-05-2013, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=Gene Beggs;715477]

Smart move Gene. Thanks for taking this discussion back to the original question. Thanks for "Pulling My Coat" and I'll leave it at that. It's fun and sometimes informative to have a little internet chat about your favorite hobby. I may take you up on your offer to visit with you. No bets on what you can teach me. I'm a dummy when it comes to reading the wind. I want to know more about "Wake Turbulence"

Take care

Glenn




Glenn, sorry if my post came across as "Pulling your coat." I didn't mean it that way at all and I'm sorry if I offended you or Barry Edgley. It's just that when I saw the photo, many of the things I tried and abandoned during the early years of developement stood out like a sore thumb. I've got an idea ! ;)

Why don't you and Barry join up and make a trip out to Odessa? :p I don't remember meeting Barry and I haven't seen you in a while. We will have some fun, do a little shooting in the tunnel and accomplish more in a couple of days than we could in a year of visiting at the matches. What do you say?

Gene Beggs

Chism G
09-05-2013, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE=Chism G;715483]




Glenn, sorry if my post came across as "Pulling your coat." I didn't mean it that way at all and I'm sorry if I offended you or Barry Edgley. It's just that when I saw the photo, many of the things I tried and abandoned during the early years of developement stood out like a sore thumb. I've got an idea ! ;)

Why don't you and Barry join up and make a trip out to Odessa? :p I don't remember meeting Barry and I haven't seen you in a while. We will have some fun, do a little shooting in the tunnel and accomplish more in a couple of days than we could in a year of visiting at the matches. What do you say?

Gene Beggs



Gene,my Comment was actually a compliment,in the context given. My coat needs to be pulled ocasionally. Sometimes I walk around with eyes shut.:)

Thanks for your input on the subject of Wind Flags. Don't be surprised if I show up in Odessa,ready for some schooling. I've got to get down to the Deer Lease pretty soon,to fix a few things. I'll put this on my list of things to do.


Glenn

Gene Beggs
09-05-2013, 10:18 PM
[QUOTE=Gene Beggs;715501]



Gene,my Comment was actually a compliment,in the context given. My coat needs to be pulled ocasionally. Sometimes I walk around with eyes shut.:)

Thanks for your input on the subject of Wind Flags. Don't be surprised if I show up in Odessa,ready for some schooling. I've got to get down to the Deer Lease pretty soon,to fix a few things. I'll put this on my list of things to do.


Glenn



Sounds good Glenn, I'll be looking forward to it. You too Barry. I would love to visit with you.

Later,

Gene Beggs

DeltaBravo
09-06-2013, 10:34 AM
Everyone,

I apologize for trying to take this thread away from the original poster's intention. I will ask my questions about turbulence in a separate thread.

Apologies to all.

Dennis

Chism G
09-06-2013, 11:00 AM
Everyone,

I apologize for trying to take this thread away from the original poster's intention. I will ask my questions about turbulence in a separate thread.

Apologies to all.

Dennis


No need to apologize Dennis. I bear some responsibility for getting away from the original question. We start with Wind Flags. progress to food and restaurants,and end up talking about a bad airplane trip. Its the nature of Internet forum discussions. It's almost impossible to resist getting off track. I thought your question about "Wake Turbulence" was valid. I don't know the answer. I was thinking about starting a new thread on that vey subject,just for the sake of discussion.


Glenn

chris
02-22-2015, 01:42 AM
Hi people I know this is a very old thread
but Their is nothing about the placement of the probes on the range
thanks

Dusty Stevens
02-22-2015, 01:11 PM
Put em between your bench and your target in your lane of flags

chris
02-22-2015, 03:24 PM
What distance up the 50 yard range. I have 2 :confused:

Dusty Stevens
02-22-2015, 04:12 PM
Anywhere you choose. Find a place that maybe has some tricky wind like by a berm or an opening in the trees. Some ranges you may not need 2

chris
02-22-2015, 11:35 PM
Thank you

Dusty Stevens
02-23-2015, 12:42 AM
Main thing is getting enough info but not too much. I use 5 flags at 200 and 4 or 5 at 100 and may or may not put a wind probe up according to the situation. But you can gather so much info that you'll never pull the trigger

chris
02-23-2015, 04:34 AM
Main thing is getting enough info but not too much. I use 5 flags at 200 and 4 or 5 at 100 and may or may not put a wind probe up according to the situation. But you can gather so much info that you'll never pull the trigger Thank you DUSTY

I shoot .22 BR at a pistol club
With 8 foot concrete walls both sides
Its like shooting in a bowl :confused:

Hunter
02-23-2015, 06:41 AM
If you tune the rifle when temp is 90 degrees and preload for the first match tomorrow morning when temp is 70 degrees, you will be completely out of tune when you go to the line. Unless you have a tuner installed, you're stuck with twenty rounds that are loaded about .6 grains too light.

Mr. Beggs, on another thread ( http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?86290-Load-Tuning-for-temperature&p=706031&highlight=#post706031 ), I read the following quote that was attributed to you:


If you tune with the powder charge, decrease velocity 30 fps for each five degree increase in temperature and vice versa. With most powders, N133 being the most common, .3 grain equals 30 fps. With most Culver type measures, one full number equals .6 grains. For example, if your favorite load is 54 clicks, and your rifle is perfectly in tune for the first match of the day when temp is 60 degrees, you will decrease the load to 53.5 clicks when temp reaches 65 degrees, 53 clicks at 70 degrees and so on.

That indented quote basically says that a 5 degree temp change requires a .3 gr change in powder; however, the quote at the top says a 20 degree temp change requires a .6 gr change in powder. Can you clarify the difference between the two quotes?

Butch Lambert
02-23-2015, 09:51 AM
I put my two, one between the 1st and 2nd target and 2nd and 3rd target.

chris
02-23-2015, 04:08 PM
I put my two, one between the 1st and 2nd target and 2nd and 3rd target.

Target or flag is that at 50 yard range Butch thanks

Dusty Stevens
02-24-2015, 01:44 AM
Not many 50 yarders here im sure hes talkin about 100-200yd

chris
02-24-2015, 01:59 AM
Not many 50 yarders here im sure hes talkin about 100-200yd
Thanks I understand now :o

Gene Beggs
03-01-2015, 05:27 PM
Mr. Beggs, on another thread ( http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?86290-Load-Tuning-for-temperature&p=706031&highlight=#post706031 ), I read the following quote that was attributed to you:


If you tune with the powder charge, decrease velocity 30 fps for each five degree increase in temperature and vice versa. With most powders, N133 being the most common, .3 grain equals 30 fps. With most Culver type measures, one full number equals .6 grains. For example, if your favorite load is 54 clicks, and your rifle is perfectly in tune for the first match of the day when temp is 60 degrees, you will decrease the load to 53.5 clicks when temp reaches 65 degrees, 53 clicks at 70 degrees and so on.

That indented quote basically says that a 5 degree temp change requires a .3 gr change in powder; however, the quote at the top says a 20 degree temp change requires a .6 gr change in powder. Can you clarify the difference between the two quotes?


Hunter,I apologize for the delay in responding. No excuse; just getting old, slow and irresponsible. :p

Thanks for questioning me about something I said about load adjustments. You're absolutely right! :eek: I screwed up and made a false statement. :o It is a 10 degree change that requires a .3 grain change in powder charge not 5 degrees like I so carelessly stated. I never make adjustments smaller than .3 grains because of all the noise in the way we dispense powder so I guess that's why I said .3 for 5 degrees instead of .3 for 10. Sorry 'bout that. :p

Thanks again for pointing out my mistake. It's heartwarming to know there are those who are really paying attention to what is said. :) I take seriously the big responsibility a writer has to print only factual, proven, no nonsense information but in spite of my best efforts, I sometimes make mistakes. But as long as there are fine proof readers like you that will take the time to point them out, I'll bet we will be okay; huh? :):)

Best regards, keep in touch with us.

Later,

Gene Beggs

mks
03-02-2015, 08:43 PM
But you can gather so much info that you'll never pull the trigger

Reminds me of a 200 yard relay after which Rick exclaimed, "Why weren't you shooting at the beginning of that lull!?":eek: All the indicators in my lane were hanging straight down except one at about 100 yards. Hoping that the conditions would go completely calm, I waited it out. (GAMBLING is a part of BR shooting!;)) It worked out that time, but I have also been bitten by waiting too long and/or not shooting fast enough. I use 4 flags with indicators at 100 and 6 at 200. I would use more if it were possible to place them so that I could see them all. You can't have too much wind information. It is by far the most important thing in BR shooting, IMHO.

Not trying to toot my own horn, but I have someone at nearly every match tell me that they watched my indicators. They are way easier to read for wind speed than tails.

Cheers,
Keith

Gene Beggs
03-02-2015, 10:01 PM
Keith, how do your wind indicators work? Sure would like to see a picture.

Gene Beggs

mks
03-03-2015, 12:23 PM
Gene,
Love your indicators. They are works of art. Mine are "utilitarian" so to speak. The indicator hangs down instead of up. The same glued cups as yours. That was a great idea. Anything else that light is way more expensive. The rod is carbon fiber and the bearing is Delrin on stainless steel. The reduced weight eliminates the need for a damper, but the response time is not noticeably quicker than yours. I was hoping it would be, but it isn't. Could be that the shorter rod or the drag in the bearing limits it quickness.

I have trouble seeing the direction of quartering flags, so that is the idea behind the cylindrical flag on top. If you see orange and a white dot like in the photo, then you know its a quartering headwind from the right. Orange and a black dot is a quartering tailwind from the right, etc.

Cheers,
Keith

15931

mwezell
03-03-2015, 12:44 PM
Gene,
Love your indicators. They are works of art. Mine are "utilitarian" so to speak. The indicator hangs down instead of up. The same glued cups as yours. That was a great idea. Anything else that light is way more expensive. The rod is carbon fiber and the bearing is Delrin on stainless steel. The reduced weight eliminates the need for a damper, but the response time is not noticeably quicker than yours. I was hoping it would be, but it isn't. Could be that the shorter rod or the drag in the bearing limits it quickness.

I have trouble seeing the direction of quartering flags, so that is the idea behind the cylindrical flag on top. If you see orange and a white dot like in the photo, then you know its a quartering headwind from the right. Orange and a black dot is a quartering tailwind from the right, etc.

Cheers,
Keith

15931

Nice Keith! You might want to try teflon instead of delrin. It made a noticeable difference in my flags.. I have some 1/2" and 5/8" round teflon. If you want, I could send some your way to try.--Mike

Gene Beggs
03-03-2015, 04:36 PM
Gene,
Love your indicators. They are works of art. Mine are "utilitarian" so to speak. The indicator hangs down instead of up. The same glued cups as yours. That was a great idea. Anything else that light is way more expensive. The rod is carbon fiber and the bearing is Delrin on stainless steel. The reduced weight eliminates the need for a damper, but the response time is not noticeably quicker than yours. I was hoping it would be, but it isn't. Could be that the shorter rod or the drag in the bearing limits it quickness.

I have trouble seeing the direction of quartering flags, so that is the idea behind the cylindrical flag on top. If you see orange and a white dot like in the photo, then you know its a quartering headwind from the right. Orange and a black dot is a quartering tailwind from the right, etc.

Cheers,
Keith

15931


Thank you Keith. Nice work. We all have our own preferences in the way information is presented. It's a lot of fun experimenting with such things; isn't it? :D

Keep up the good work. There are those of us out here in the boondocks that greatly appreciate your input.

Later,

Gene Beggs

mks
03-03-2015, 05:42 PM
Nice Keith! You might want to try teflon instead of delrin. It made a noticeable difference in my flags.. I have some 1/2" and 5/8" round teflon. If you want, I could send some your way to try.--Mike

Thanks for the good idea, Mike. I have a General Rubber and Plastics just down the road, so I'll give it a try.