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Tim Singleton
07-17-2013, 10:25 PM
Still learning with my 6 ppc. I have to say its a little confounding for me. I have had enough really good days at the range to hook me. But I also have a lot of not so good days. I have learned just how close to perfect each round has to be to the rest in every way.
All that said my rifle has a .262 neck chamber. I am currently turning necks for a loaded round measuring .259

Should I be turning for a little more clearance ? For a more consistent release

mturner
07-17-2013, 11:17 PM
If you have a true .003" over the pressure ring, you have more than enough clearance. I would recommend a minimum of .002" measuring a seated bullet over the pressure ring. You could have as much as .0035" to .004" clearance with your current setup. I consider this too much clearance because you are working your brass more than you need to. Just because the reamer has a .262" neck, the reamers often cut .0005" over their actual diameter. The reamers also measure closer to .2625" in many cases. The reamer tolerance is usually -.0000" and +.0004". I recommend getting an accurate measurement on the neck diameter of your chamber.

Michael

Charles E
07-17-2013, 11:20 PM
Sort of a religious topic. Use to be that some of the greats used .0005 to .00075 total clearance -- like Tony Boyer in the late 1990s. Well, Mr. Boyer is still great, but rumor has it he uses a little more clearance now.

There's a sort of holy writ that in long range benchrest, you need at least .002 total clearance, and .003 or .004 is better. I've always used .002. For short range, I still use .001 to .002 total.

Having said that, there are some .30BR shooters using .004 total, and some using .002 and a couple as little as .00075.

You're using .003.

Unless you want to do a lot of work testing (probably the best way, certainly the best way to wear out a barrel), you'll have to take things on limited experience.

BTW, neck clearance interacts some with bullet pull (tension) and bullet jam/jump and powder choice. Also, likely with the throat & throat angle. Nor is there a clear best here -- more like IF you use a lot or a little jam, and a powder that does/does not like a lot of neck tension, then...

Most of us, over the years, find something we can make work & don't do exhaustive testing with each barrel & bullet & powder. If using .003 works best with a jam of X & bullet Y for you, while I use .001 with a jam of A and bullet B, so what? We make the necessary compromises given our selection of components. You didn't think all this was some magical property of just the barrel, did you?

Edit:

Michael posted while I was writing. Good points. When I say I use .001 or .002, it *is* that. BTW, the usual matter of faith the "use a lotta clearance" people make is "it cuts down on vertical." I've always found other ways to eliminate vertical, including 1,000 yard rifles, where it can be a big problem.

Boyd Allen
07-17-2013, 11:35 PM
One short range world record holder told me between .002 and .003 for a better release. Another, more recently, told me that he shoots for around .00275. Lately, I (no where near a world record holder) have been somewhere between .0025 and .003 depending on the bullet pressure ring diameter. You should be fine. If I were ordering a new reamer, it would be a .263. I miss a little of the neck tension that I used to get with slightly thicker necks.

abintx
07-17-2013, 11:42 PM
Still learning with my 6 ppc. I have to say its a little confounding for me. I have had enough really good days at the range to hook me. But I also have a lot of not so good days. I have learned just how close to perfect each round has to be to the rest in every way. All that said my rifle has a .262 neck chamber. I am currently turning necks for a loaded round measuring .259. Should I be turning for a little more clearance? For a more consistent release

Turn for LESS clearance.

A 6PPC with a .262" neck chamber, has in the past, had its brass turned so that with a bullet seated in the case and measured at the bullet's pressure ring, have had an Outside Diameter of .261", .2605", and .260".

.260" seems to be the new norm. Jack Neary probably had a lot to do with that. Here are some videos that I recommend to those willing to learn from a BR Hall of Fame inductee: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7D85822FD9E41FF2

If you want the definitive guide to the 6PPC, I highly recommend Tony Boyer's book: The Book of Rifle Accuracy, available here: http://www.brunoshooters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BSS&Product_Code=TBSC . :)

Boyd Allen
07-18-2013, 12:53 AM
Jack talks about .0081 to .0082 (for a .262 neck), and if he is shooting Hottenstein BTs I think that he is closer to .003 than .002. Anyone have one handy to mic.?

Tim Singleton
07-18-2013, 10:28 AM
It sounds like I should be good with loaded round clearance. But after watching the video link. Although i check and trim if needed at each reloading? My trim length is a little long.
Im going to give that a try next

thanks
Tim

Boyd Allen
07-18-2013, 11:34 AM
I think that trimming often is a good idea for your application, as well as paying some attention to the end of your chamber neck when cleaning. What you don't want is to have a longer neck extending over fouling left behind by a shorter neck, in a tight neck chamber. That could make for an inconsistent bullet release. By keeping necks shorter, they end in a part of the neck that is more likely to be reached and kept clean using normal cleaning methods. As you get closer to the end of the chamber neck, that gets harder to do.

Charles E
07-18-2013, 12:25 PM
& pray in whatever direction you choose...

In general, short range benchrest success is all about being able to read conditions -- wind and mirage. It is rumored that someone of the skill of Tony Boyer can shoot through a reverse (complete change of wind direction) and still turn in a group that will make him competitive in the aggregate. Pretty much trumps anything you can achieve with trimming your necks.

You do have to have good equipment. That means equipment hat doesn't throw shots, like issues with the bolt (ignition system), or a barrel that's wonky. How can you tell when you're new to it all?

There is an element of luck, how good is your barrel. You can either trust you luck, or you can buy & fit a whole bunch of barrels.

On the other hand, long range benchrest is all about preparing ammunition. Unless it is really windy. No one can read subtle changes over 1,000 yards. But gravity still gives a drop of 32 feet per second^2, and that 1.2 to 1.5 second bullet travel time brings things into play that just don't matter in the .1 second travel time for point-blank BR. Some you can tune for -- vertical due to velocity variations -- some you can't, so your bullet testing and reloading have to be top-drawer.

OK. I shoot 1,000 yard BR. And I keep seeing things posted by the point-blank guys that just don't matter at 1K. How could they matter at 100?

Butch Lambert
07-18-2013, 07:14 PM
Tim,
I believe you are good to go. There are other things that I believe are more important than a couple thou. of neck clearance. Your consistence from load to load is most important and watch your windflags.

Tim Singleton
07-18-2013, 11:14 PM
Butch
I'm liking your rest. I'm trying to learn my flags it's taking time for me to learn how much has what event. It's easier to blame it on my loading than my lack of experience. It maybe the last one where my problems are

I seem to be having a hard time with my Sinclair neck turning tool to get consistent results. Some at .0085 some at .008. I try to re cut the .0085 ones again and it won't cut anything off.
Maybe I need a different tool

HFV
07-19-2013, 06:17 AM
What type tool are you using to neck up the brass to 6mm? I use a 90 degree gear motor to turn brass. I have two neck turners. One for initial cut to close to .010" thickness and another cutter set @ .0085". I always let my mandrel cool after 10 pcs of brass. (use a good lubricate). After I'm done, I go back again w/the .0085" cutter. Not all but about 1/2 the brass , the cutter will remove just a little more. I find that I'll end w/a pretty consitant .0085" wall thickness and .260" loaded rd. (using Bart's Ultras) I get just slightly larger measurement w/Wilbur's fat boys and others. (I use the .0085" cutter twice on every pc of brass)
Butch
I'm liking your rest. I'm trying to learn my flags it's taking time for me to learn how much has what event. It's easier to blame it on my loading than my lack of experience. It maybe the last one where my problems are

I seem to be having a hard time with my Sinclair neck turning tool to get consistent results. Some at .0085 some at .008. I try to re cut the .0085 ones again and it won't cut anything off.
Maybe I need a different tool

mike clayton
07-19-2013, 10:21 AM
Try PMA's neck turning tool, works very well. Carbide mandrel

Tim Singleton
07-19-2013, 03:04 PM
I have a sinclair expanding die and mandrel. I'm using 2 Sinclair tools one set to make the first cut then another to make the final cut to .0085

They do not have the carbide cutters. I do notice it getting hot and probably am not letting it cool properly. I use imperial dry wax to lube.
It may just be that I haven't been re turning necks as I've went along I've paid attention to trimming to consistent lengths but haven't been re turning. They have 8 firings on them now. I'm using a Ken Light annealing machine to anneal

Boyd Allen
07-19-2013, 03:43 PM
If you are not using carbide turning mandrels, and your turners are getting hot, it is likely that you are getting some brass buildup on the mandrel right under the cutter, which will cause necks to be thinner after it happens. I have tried various turning lubes, and find that there are better ones than what you are using (IMO, fully braced for disagreement). What are you driving your cases with, and how fast are they spinning? I have never known of a short range benchrest competitor that annealed his 6 PPC case necks. Given the typical neck thickness, getting a high enough bullet pull is an issue, and annealing necks would seem to possibly be counterproductive, since it might reduce bullet pull, by softening the brass. Back in the day, when my only turner was the cheapest Sinclair, I was running into friction related brass on turning mandrel problems, until I reduced the diameter of my turning mandrel slightly. If you hold your tools the right way, and operate them as I do, you really don't have to have a wring on fit of the case neck on the turning mandrel to produce excellent results. As far as I am concerned, the idea that a tight fit is required is a widely repeated myth.

Tim Singleton
07-19-2013, 06:41 PM
the brass flows with firing. so we trim to length on each re loading. Should I also be re turning?
When the brass flow happens will it cause neck thickness to become inconsistent?

alinwa
07-19-2013, 10:31 PM
the brass flows with firing. so we trim to length on each re loading. Should I also be re turning?
When the brass flow happens will it cause neck thickness to become inconsistent?


Sorry to change the topic but the statement"brass flows with firing" is simply wrong....... Brass DOES NOT "flow with firing."

It is entirely possible to fire a single piece of brass 50 times at 60,000+++ psi and not trim it at all.

I do this, consistently, with cartridges/chamberings from BR/PPC up to and including blown out 338 Lapua cases.

Brass "flows" from improper die fit and setup, in simple terms you push it up through the resizer too far, and yes, when you do this you're running shoulder brass up into the neck which makes a mess but more importantly you WILL suffer case failure, casehead separation is inevitable if you're constantly trimming your necks since that brass you trim off has to come from somewhere and where it comes from is the junction of the casehead to case body.

I state this only because this is a public forum and IMO info need be vetted for accuracy, people spend real money based on info found here on BRC.

al

Tim Singleton
07-20-2013, 02:27 PM
I apologize if I have miss stated something or phrased it wrong.
If this is so, and the brass does not grow when fired. Why do people say That a round with a 40 degree shoulder doesn't grow as much as a 30 degree thus requiring less trimming?

I have just began to loose some ppc brass, it is separating at the head. Probably 25x loaded. I bump the shoulder back .001 with my Harrel die. I don't think I am running it up into it to much or using it improperly. But I do have to trim regularly maybe not every firing but probably every other to keep it the same.

help me understand this

Boyd Allen
07-20-2013, 02:41 PM
Tell us how much FL sizing reduces the diameter of the body of your cases, at the shoulder, and a little above the extractor groove. Also, how have you established the dimension that you bump back to? How many neck sized warm load firings did you do to come up with a reference dimension, to subtract .001 from? The reason that I ask is that if you set up your bump in reference to the measuring of a case that did not represent the maximum shoulder to head dimension for that barrel in that rifle, you may be bumping more than you think that you are.

Tim Singleton
07-20-2013, 03:03 PM
I started out by firing 3x several pieces of brass by slip fitting the bullet back in the case. It had a slight amount of grip. I sent 3 pieces to Harrels. They sent me a die and their brass shoulder comparator.
I use it to measure the shoulder of a fired round and after sizing to measure the amount shoulder is set back.

Fired case at shoulder measures .4315 sized case .4305
Just above extractor groove fired .440 sized .4395

Boyd Allen
07-20-2013, 03:29 PM
I like to have a case that has been fired neck sized only with warm loads, about 3 times as a bump back reference. Some load do not cause a case to get tight, shoulder to head, in one firing, so you really don't need to bump back shoulders from there. If you have a tight case for reference, you can set your die to produce cases that are .001 shorter (shoulder to head) than it is, otherwise your brass is working too much during the firing cycle. Your sized case look about right compared to your sized one.

alinwa
07-20-2013, 06:21 PM
I apologize if I have miss stated something or phrased it wrong.
If this is so, and the brass does not grow when fired. Why do people say That a round with a 40 degree shoulder doesn't grow as much as a 30 degree thus requiring less trimming?

I have just began to loose some ppc brass, it is separating at the head. Probably 25x loaded. I bump the shoulder back .001 with my Harrel die. I don't think I am running it up into it to much or using it improperly. But I do have to trim regularly maybe not every firing but probably every other to keep it the same.

help me understand this

Tsingleton, good questions.



Why do people say That a round with a 40 degree shoulder doesn't grow as much as a 30 degree thus requiring less trimming?

2 reasons come to mind.... #1, generally wildcat cartridges or non-standard cartridges like a 40 degree-shouldered cases dictate that one buy a custom sizing die which increases the chances of achieving better fit and #2, 40 degree cases better resist "sliding thru the die"..... it's simply harder to get the brass to slip around those two sharp corners so the cases are more resistant to improper die setup.

The WHY is what's critical here :)

I've got this sign on my wall....

The Man Who Learns How To Do A Job Will Always Have Work
The Man Who Learns Why Will Always Be His Boss

Which brings us to the second part of your post.


I have just began to loose some ppc brass, it is separating at the head. Probably 25x loaded. I bump the shoulder back .001 with my Harrel die. I don't think I am running it up into it to much or using it improperly. But I do have to trim regularly maybe not every firing but probably every other to keep it the same.

I'm glad that you've actually reloaded enough to validate my initial assertion, most people out there are just guessing! Really.... very few keyboard shootists have actually reloaded the same case 25 times, VERY few.

Your die IS set too deep. Sounds like you've got the required scrupulous die fit, but you are over-sizing.

Here are some items to chew on, maybe also some things to try.

-All guns are different. Different brands/makes/styles of rifles have different flex characteristics and require different sizing methods/settings
-Brass changes as it ages, sometimes necessitating different die settings. Some periodically anneal to combat this. I choose not to, barrel life is too short for me to be wasting shots! Others anneal every firing, again, doesn't work for me. I adjust my dies/lube/etc. Skip's Die Shims are wonderful things, I keep about 6 sets of them floating around my gear. Die shims and lube, real ways to change sizing effect quickly.
-Which brings us to lube. Different lubes will produce different results. I've sized t'ousands of cases with BBS :) Not a lube A'tall.... but proper setup requires very little sizing effect.
-re Die settings... If my die EVER touches my shellholder I walk over to the beltsander or benchgrinder and POSTHASTE I do grind the bottom off most abruptly....
-Harrell's dies, one characteristic of these and all bushing-style dies is that they leave an area of the N/S junction un-sized. Sometimes this can enter into the melange.
-Measurements/methods/results vary..... You feel that you're setting your shoulders back a thou and maybe you are, but a thou PLUS a fuzz, or a thou MINUS a fuzz can make for a difference of almost a thou WITHIN a thou.... To state my position succinctly I don't ever presume to know a measurement.

"Measurements" suck, I don't trust 'em.

I just DON'T.

I measure a lot but I GAUGE everything by results. Your RESULTS are casehead separation..... and to quote my buddy Jesse, "Ya' cain't argue wit' da' facts!"

Try backing the die off a little :)

The Skipper's Die Shims

Rock On

al

Tim Singleton
07-20-2013, 06:28 PM
al

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Not just correct and go on. I am just trying to figure this thing out. What you are talking about makes sense and is what I am seeing.
I will back my die up a little hopefully this will help my trimming and neck thickness problems

Thanks

Tim

abintx
07-20-2013, 09:30 PM
The easiest tool for measuring how much you've pushed your case's shoulder back [headspaced your brass]: http://www.larrywillis.com/

"Our patented Digital Headspace Gauge shows the exact clearance (at the shoulder) that YOUR handloads will have in YOUR particular chamber. Remember, a fired case is like a perfect casting of your chamber. Simply calibrate this gauge to your rifle by inserting one of your fired cases, and press the "zero" button. Then insert one of your handloads, and the gauge will display your chamber clearance. This is the most accurate way to adjust your die height - without guessing." :)

Boyd Allen
07-20-2013, 10:46 PM
I guess that I will have to disagree on that one. The little brass piece that Lynwood Harrell gives you does just fine. I have all sorts of tools, the Hornady one, and a piece of barrel that has the front of the chamber in it. I can even take the barrel off and use a depth mike and sleeve to measure down to the case head before and after sizing, if I should be so foolish, Lynwood's little gauge works very well for setting your PPC FL die. For that particular application, you don't need anything else.

Charles E
07-20-2013, 10:57 PM
The easiest tool for measuring how much you've pushed your case's shoulder back [headspaced your brass]: http://www.larrywillis.com/
Maybe. But the cheapest in the one Harrell sends with his die, or one the 'smith makes with the chambering reamer & a piece of barrel scrap. Of course, you do need a set of calipers...

I see a lot of branding talk in this thread. They're all tools, guys, and you need to learn how to use what you got. If you keep spending on the latest fashion, it's only the illusion of progress.

Carbide mandrel, sure (not carbide cutter). What, about $35 each? I've got a couple. But Boyd's trick on not having such a tight fit works with steel. Or keeping the tool cold as well as clean, but "cold" is a lot of work. "Clean" is the key.

BTW, I get about .0002 difference between using an electric drill versus turning by hand. That's just me I suppose, with my weak hands and the heavy drill. I'll use either method, but not both on the same set of cases. Not that I have proof that .0002 matters.

Remember the long acrimonious thread on annealing? Well, Phil Bower set an IBS 10-shot 1K record a while back.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/09/frazier-wins-ibs-1000-yd-nationals-bower-breaks-hg-group-record/

Good shooting Phil. Less well known is that about half his cases had split necks. Before firing. Anyone who thinks Phil's record was a flash-in-the-pan just never shot against Phil at the Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Benchrest Club.

http://www.pa1000yard.com/

And Phil made (occasionally) one of the best annealers around. Wonder if he annealed those split necks?

Then there is all this talk about even bullet release. Now if you talk to Bob Hart (the younger), he'll tell you the best way to get even bullet release is to use a short neck. Like the .30 Hart. Or, I suppose, the Wolf Pup. But then half the brethr'n think a long neck is beneficial, for "bullet alignment," or sometimes for "neck tension." Which is it going to be, guys, what's "best"?

Take a look at that Wolf Pup

https://www.google.com/search?q=.30+Wolf+Pup&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=dUzrUbCkD4LC9QTlsYGADw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=755&bih=485

Don't think anyone will argue about it's performance...

Proof comes from the target, and tools are just that. They don't use themselves.

Etc.

Edit:

Apparently written while Boyd was writing. I'm just slower.

abintx
07-20-2013, 11:52 PM
I guess that I will have to disagree on that one. The little brass piece that Lynwood Harrell gives you does just fine. I have all sorts of tools, the Hornady one, and a piece of barrel that has the front of the chamber in it. I can even take the barrel off and use a depth mike and sleeve to measure down to the case head before and after sizing, if I should be so foolish, Lynwood's little gauge works very well for setting your PPC FL die. For that particular application, you don't need anything else.

I too have all sorts of tools, including Harrell's and Hornady's. With both of them I'm applying the pressure to extract a reading, which my be slightly different, each time I use it.

With Larry's gauge, the gauge itself, provides a uniform downward pressure, using a spring and gravity, to provide the most consistent readings. I prefer the mechanical vice the human element.

Kind of like turning brass with a lathe versus a handheld turner. Just personal preference. :)

Boyd Allen
07-21-2013, 12:09 AM
I think that having well made tools that work well is one of the pleasures of our hobby. I just wanted to make it perfectly clear that changing to the tool that you prefer, will not improve his situation as far as gauging his shoulder bump. If the wrench fits the bolt and allows room for it to be turned, it is not the problem.

P. Octo
07-22-2013, 10:53 AM
If you have a true .003" over the pressure ring, you have more than enough clearance. I would recommend a minimum of .002" measuring a seated bullet over the pressure ring. You could have as much as .0035" to .004" clearance with your current setup. I consider this too much clearance because you are working your brass more than you need to. Just because the reamer has a .262" neck, the reamers often cut .0005" over their actual diameter. The reamers also measure closer to .2625" in many cases. The reamer tolerance is usually -.0000" and +.0004". I recommend getting an accurate measurement on the neck diameter of your chamber.

Michael

This time, I happened to have to prepare a set of .220 Lapua cases for a newly installed 6PPC HV Krieger barrel on my Teddy.
As usual, before starting anything connected with cases, I like to make sure I know what I’ll be doing, and the first step is to measure the neck of the chamber and not trust the figure engraved on the reamer.
The neck measured .2623.
After reading the article, by J. Mock, about Jack Neary summarizing his views on case preparation I was willing to give it a try. He quotes B. Forrester that, as far as neck tension is concerned, ‘thinner is better’ and for a .263 chambering he advises to turn the necks at .0081/.0082 max. My problem was: what dimension should I turn for my slightly smaller chamber to keep the same proportion as advocated by Mr Neary? I endeavoured to make some calculations, didn’t like the result and chose, wisely as it happened, to check with my wife who had had the benefit of a more scientific and mathematical education than I.
She soon put me right and it may help some other poor soul obsessed with the vanity of doing things just so. I won’t bore you with abstruse theories but just set the example taking as a base Mr Neary’s postulate:
.263 -> .0082
.2623 ->?
Just do: .0082 x .2623 /.263 = .008178
Doesn’t change much for all practical purposes but this becomes very obvious if you have a .268 chamber…

Please, feel free to check the validity of the calculation and its relevance with Jack Neary's position. I wrote the above December 2010.

Boyd Allen
07-22-2013, 11:31 AM
To keep the same clearance with a larger neck diameter that Neary recommends for a .262, subtract .262 from the larger neck diameter, divide the answer by two, and add that to the neck thickness that he recommended for a .262 neck. For example, if you have a .268 neck, subtracting .262 would give .006, half of that is .003, so the correct thickness would be .0111 or .0112, giving the same clearance as Neary's recommended .0081 to .0082 does for a .262 neck. Of course the point about the actual neck diameter being slightly different than the specified size is a good one.

I have shoot good groups at 100 using everything from under .001 total clearance, to .003. The reason that I am currently working in the .0025 to .003 range (depending on the diameter of the bullet) is that I believe that I may have been blind to a potential difference at 200 because I do most of my shooting at 100, and I think that Jack has a good enough record to be worth listening to.

P. Octo
07-23-2013, 05:27 AM
To keep the same clearance with a larger neck diameter that Neary recommends for a .262, subtract .262 from the larger neck diameter, divide the answer by two, and add that to the neck thickness that he recommended for a .262 neck. For example, if you have a .268 neck, subtracting .262 would give .006, half of that is .003, so the correct thickness would be .0111 or .0112, giving the same clearance as Neary's recommended .0081 to .0082 does for a .262 neck. (...).
Thanks for your comment: I stand corrected. Your method is so simply evident!

HovisKM
07-23-2013, 11:23 AM
I am going to throw a wrench into some established thought processess as it pertains to FL sizing. The "Thingy you get from Harrell's can be ok and it can also give wrong measurements. The reason being is the tolarance of the shoulder angle on the reamer. If it does not contact the shoulder completely or at least in the middle, the measurement you get may be far off. Thus, this is why bumping .001 is causing case seperatation after 25 firings. This is the most likely possibility. The other is the cases...are you using lapua or something else? It is best to have your own reamer and your shoulder bump gage made from it. There is also a nice gage made by a guy in Michigan, I've seen Dwight and many other top shooter use it. But still I'll argue with anyone when it comes to standard PPC BR chamberings...check your die setting by feel, your bolt handle should drop to 90 degrees and then be easily pushed down with one finger. I bet if you check your brass by removing your firing pin, you handle drops all the way down easily.

Also, all dies (even custom FL dies) are not the same. Again, if the shoulder/body angle is off enough, problems with headspacing and overworking brass occur. I highly recommend that you find a die that will size your brass no more than .0005 and it easily chambers. You should be able to fire your brass many times without ever having to reset your die. Why...because you are not overworking the brass.

This all pertains to the PPC. If you can not set your brass by feel in a custom PPC, you had better find another gunsmith because something is seriously wrong (especially if he did your chamber and made your die). What gets most people in trouble is playing with the ppc deminsions on thier chambers, nothing has ever proven better than the standard JGS1045 reamer spec, change the neck diameter if you wish but leave everything else alone. One last parting comment....don't ever...ever...bump ppc shoulders back .002 ... That's to Damn far.

Hovis

Boyd Allen
07-23-2013, 12:34 PM
Hovis,
It seems that you are in the "and" category, rather than the "instead of". That is, you measure and use feel, and I assume that if the bump is at a maximum, and the feel is too tight, that you conclude that you need another die. I do the same thing, but instead of getting a different die, I change the insert in my Vari-Base die to the next smaller size and try again. While I am sure that it is a fine thing to have FL die that was cut by the smith that chambered your barrel, wouldn't you agree that lots of shooters are able to get satisfactory service from dies that were matched to their fired brass, such as Harrell Precision provides? Also, have you seen a lot of out of spec. chamber shoulder angles? How do you check for that ?
Boyd

SGJennings
07-23-2013, 01:57 PM
For the new folks, just wanted to add that the " have FL die that was cut by the smith that chambered your barrel" doesn't mean the FL die is made with the chamber reamer. Doesn't work.

To resize, the resize die has to be smaller than the chamber. Not by much, but it must be smaller.

HovisKM
07-23-2013, 04:51 PM
Boyd,

I check every barrel on a used gun I buy by both methods, once I deem the chamber/die fit is ok, I never measure it again. Chambers done by my gunsmith with my reamer is set by feel only. When I had my first BR rifle built, Ed Watson sat down and showed me how to set everything up. No "thingy" ever made an appearance. The only question he asked was...who chambered the barrel. I had a FL die that was not made by my gunsmith and he checked it and the brass and said that it just wouldn't work the way it should. It was to rounded at the neck/shoulder and Shoulder/body junctions and said it would never headspace right. He pulled out a FL die made by Hammond (I think it was the same year Hammond won the supershoot) and sized a piece of brass to fit my rifle and showed me the difference. I still have that die and another made to the same spec by my gunsmith. The newest die is 13 yrs old. I have never ran into a sizing issue but I also don't screw around with chamber deminsions either. It's hard enough to keep track of all the variables that can casue a gun not to shoot so I don't think adding another variable to keep track of is a good idea.

Hovis

Boyd Allen
07-23-2013, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the info. I also keep my reamer at my gunsmith's, and except for testing for an article, have used the same die for years. Changing things that work is not my practice. I guess that the reason that I use the little brass thingy is that for my chambers and dies, when I set the bump with it, I get a good feel, and excellent brass life....and it is fast to do. After screwing up a couple of times starting to size with the die set for old hard brass, with new brass, I have made a practice of taking the die out of the press, and setting it for what ever brass that I am working with, at the start of a session. I use a Lee lock ring, below a Hornady lock ring above it, that locks it to the die. I know about where to start my adjustments, and with the O ring on the Lee ring, I can just turn the die and check the bump, until I get what I am looking for. I also noticed that the slight float that it allows seemed to give me slightly straighter brass.

Tim Singleton
07-24-2013, 09:12 AM
Hovis
I use Lapua brass. I will check a sized piece in my chamber to see how the bolt closes. My rifle is an older gun smithed by Sealy Masker. Remington action trued and pressed in an aluminum sleeve. I had a new Krieger barrel fitted to it after I bought it.

Dick Grosbier
07-24-2013, 10:31 AM
If you already have .003 clearance the only thing increasing will do is shorten your brass life. Most people would say you are already overworking your brass from excess clearance.

Tim Singleton
07-24-2013, 11:22 PM
I did some more checking today. I'm not sure what this means. Possibly my Harrel die is not a good fit.
I backed my die out so when I measure with my brass piece there is no shoulder set back at all.
But the diameter of an un sized case at the shoulder is .003 larger than a sized case. When I lock my micrometer down on an un sized case it slides down 1/4" or so on the sized case. The shoulder measurement with the brass comparator is the same.

Boyd asked me to check this the other day I guess I screwed up some how taking all the measurements.

Is my Harrel die the wrong size?

Boyd Allen
07-24-2013, 11:28 PM
At this point, I wouldn't worry about it. Have you taken a look at the six segments of Jack Neary's workshop on Youtube? I believe that in one of them he speaks to this very issue. How much smaller is sizing making a tight case a little above the extractor groove, and how does your zero bump case feel when you chamber it?

Dick Grosbier
07-25-2013, 03:15 PM
Is my Harrel die the wrong size?

NO.

At least not based on anything you said in that post.

HovisKM
07-25-2013, 03:42 PM
I have to disagree with Dick. If you are not bumping the shoulder and the shoulder/neck junction and the base is being sized down .003, then you have a die/chamber match problem.

Hovis

Charles E
07-25-2013, 04:21 PM
I have to disagree with Dick. If you are not bumping the shoulder and the shoulder/neck junction and the base is being sized down .003, then you have a die/chamber match problem.

Hovis

Think I agree with Hovis. Y'all need an understanding of the elasticity of steel (as pertains to the barrel), and esp. brass (as it pertains to the cartridge case), and where the elasticity is the least. And that would be at the shoulder. There is almost always a need to bump the shoulder before sizing down the sidewalls of a case.

Remember, if you run full-but-lower-than-typical-benchrest pressures -- say, in the 50-52K (piezo) region, you often don't need to size cases at all.

Edit: and the differing elasticities is one reason why getting the barrel chamber size just right -- and a thick enough tenon -- are so important.

Tim Singleton
07-25-2013, 09:41 PM
I'm going to give Harrels a call tomorrow.
I agree it doesn't seem like it would be sizing the body at the shoulder junction down when it's not setting the shoulder back any.

I think the brass moving up into the neck area was causing my neck thickness inconsistency. I was trimming to length regularly but not turning necks each time I trimmed. I had not checked OAL loaded round in a while. Just didn't put 2+2 together.
I re turned all necks back to .0082 or as close to that as I can get. Some had gotten up to .009 thick others were .0085.
Ill see how things go tomorrow with loaded rounds now a more consistent dimension.

alinwa
07-26-2013, 12:18 AM
I did some more checking today. I'm not sure what this means. Possibly my Harrel die is not a good fit.
I backed my die out so when I measure with my brass piece there is no shoulder set back at all.
But the diameter of an un sized case at the shoulder is .003 larger than a sized case. When I lock my micrometer down on an un sized case it slides down 1/4" or so on the sized case. The shoulder measurement with the brass comparator is the same.

Boyd asked me to check this the other day I guess I screwed up some how taking all the measurements.

Is my Harrel die the wrong size?

Yes, from your post I will agree that your die sounds too small, a very common situation and one they will rectify free of charge IME

Jack Neary trims his brass. A lot.

Measuring stuff is hard.

al

Boyd Allen
07-26-2013, 01:52 AM
I am lucky in that my go to die was intentionally designed not to mess with the shoulder diameter. It comes out as it went in. I get .0005 at the back, nothing at the shoulder, a .001 or slightly less bump, and whatever the bushing gives me for the neck. I mention this for two reasons. Sized this way cases chamber effortlessly, and if I keep a close eye on the bump so as not to let it exceed my sepc., case trimming is hardly ever needed. The fun part is that I have about five different inserts for the back of this die, so whatever chamber I need to size for, I have it covered. It is an out of production Harrell's Vari-Base die. Say what you will about them, but mine seems to work really well. Another little aside, a while back I had a well used case that I had stepped on pretty hard, which had developed a click. My shell holder has been shortened, so I could screw out the insert a turn or so, increasing the reach of the die down the case by that much, without affecting the bump. End of problem. Another thing, the inserts almost have a square edge at at the end of their IDs, with the edge barely rounded at all, so the die works closer to the shell holder.

Charles E
07-26-2013, 05:27 PM
Mr. Singleton,

At the risk of offending you, here's what I'd suggest.

First, buy some already prepped brass from, say, Ron Hoehn

http://www.benchrest.com/hoehn/html/ammo___brass.html

Done this myself in the days I was working and had more money than time. It costs a little, but it will be correct. In your case, save your own brass for your next set of cases, you'll need them soon enough, and downstream, you'll know enough so you won't waste money by ruining cases.

Second, get a kinda, sorta mentor. You don't say where you're from, but likely there is some experienced benchrest shooter at a nearby range (else you got even more trouble -- where you going to shoot? Against whom?)

It is all confusing at first. I still remember, even though it's been 25+ years. The guy I bought my rifle from helped me through the first steps. I wasn't really good to go then, but it did save me some frustration and wasted money.

For example: Your die doesn't bump the shoulder -- but that could be a factor of how far you're shoving the case into the die. If you shove the case in further, at some point, the shoulder will be bumped. What's going on just now involves several variables; I'm not sure you've presented things so that what's being said is appropriate. We on the forum make assumptions, too.

The .003 reduction AFTER the case is taken from the die does seem a bit much -- .001 is ideal, but I'd not be sure of your measurements at this point.

What really matters at this point is getting reasonable ammunition, and a lot of practice. The internet is a good place for swapping all sorts of technical information, a bad place to practice shooting. But you're already overloaded with technical information. Too much, some of it wrong.

I haven't read Tony Boyer's new book, but I've read some of the things he wrote (interviews, really) from the late 1990s. Good stuff. Emphasis on what should be emphasized. I also know some of the people involved in it's publication (Larry Costa); he's good people too. I suspect that would be more value to you than continued internet talk at this point.

Good luck to you.

Tim Singleton
07-26-2013, 10:06 PM
Mr. Singleton,

At the risk of offending you, here's what I'd suggest.

First, buy some already prepped brass from, say, Ron Hoehn

http://www.benchrest.com/hoehn/html/ammo___brass.html

Done this myself in the days I was working and had more money than time. It costs a little, but it will be correct. In your case, save your own brass for your next set of cases, you'll need them soon enough, and downstream, you'll know enough so you won't waste money by ruining cases.

Second, get a kinda, sorta mentor. You don't say where you're from, but likely there is some experienced benchrest shooter at a nearby range (else you got even more trouble -- where you going to shoot? Against whom?)

It is all confusing at first. I still remember, even though it's been 25+ years. The guy I bought my rifle from helped me through the first steps. I wasn't really good to go then, but it did save me some frustration and wasted money.

For example: Your die doesn't bump the shoulder -- but that could be a factor of how far you're shoving the case into the die. If you shove the case in further, at some point, the shoulder will be bumped. What's going on just now involves several variables; I'm not sure you've presented things so that what's being said is appropriate. We on the forum make assumptions, too.

The .003 reduction AFTER the case is taken from the die does seem a bit much -- .001 is ideal, but I'd not be sure of your measurements at this point.

What really matters at this point is getting reasonable ammunition, and a lot of practice. The internet is a good place for swapping all sorts of technical information, a bad place to practice shooting. But you're already overloaded with technical information. Too much, some of it wrong.

I haven't read Tony Boyer's new book, but I've read some of the things he wrote (interviews, really) from the late 1990s. Good stuff. Emphasis on what should be emphasized. I also know some of the people involved in it's publication (Larry Costa); he's good people too. I suspect that would be more value to you than continued internet talk at this point.

Good luck to you.

No offense taken.
I live in western NC close to TN line. Not a short range benchrest part of the country. I don't know anyone personally to act as a mentor. I really dont want to miss out on learning to prep my own cases i think thats part of the whole experience.
Without the input of guys from this forum I'm pretty much left to my own trial and error. I compete against myself at this point. I've only been shooting 6ppc 6-8 months or so.
Boyd Allen, as well as some other guys have been very helpful.

I think I will continue to ask questions and learn from those willing to share. After all, I hear there is a need for new shooters in the BR game. My plan is to be able to travel to a couple matches next year without embarrassing my self to badly

Tim

Charles E
07-26-2013, 11:29 PM
I live in western NC close to TN line. Not a short range benchrest part of the country.
Tim

Tim,

Well it would be a fair hike, but Rockingham Gun Club (just north of Greensboro) is within reach, and we hold club-level matches (with some pretty good shooters) the 4th Sat of the month. Usually score, but all calibers shot are pluggged with a .30 this year, so a PPC is at no disadvantage. And the skills are the same, pretty much, as with group. In fact, I'll be there tomorrow, along with some other BR Central folk.

http://www.rockinghamcountygunclub.com/rcgc_shootingvenues_centerfire_rifle.html

Closer for you, maybe, would be Unaka, and one of their BR shooters, Matthew Keller does post to BR Central. You could ask him about shooting there; they probably have something other than the twice-a-year NBRSA sanctioned shoots. Unaka is also the home range of Jim Carmichael, the (ex) Outdoor Life shooting editor, and a pretty nice guy.

http://www.unakarodandgun.com/

Also, there are sanctioned matches occasionally held near Boone, and maybe they are still holding some at one or more of the three ranges near Charlotte. They shoot short-range IBS score matches at Piedmont, though it is better known for 600 yards. Just by the way, with reference to Piedmont, on a mildish day, the PPC with 66-grain bullets can hold it's own at 600 yards. An older shooter, Cheechako, has had a win or two at 600 with a PPC...

Moving on to Tennessee, Jerry Sharrett is in the Eastern part of Tennessee (he posts here), as is Jeff Summers. Jeff doesn't post to BR central, but he does do things like win the Super Shoot (twice). Not sure where they shoot aside from Unaka, but I think there is another range involved with BR in Eastern Tennessee near the Carolina border.

Could be worse for you -- I live in Durham. Unaka is about a 4 hour drive for me & I've been known to go to matches there.

Boyd, on the other hand, lives in California...

Tim Singleton
07-27-2013, 12:17 AM
Unaka in Johnson city is only about an hour and half from me. That sounds like a good place to start

Thanks
Tim

Boyd Allen
07-27-2013, 12:38 AM
Charles,
Good post.
Boyd

JerrySharrett
07-27-2013, 06:29 AM
Tim,


http://www.unakarodandgun.com/

Moving on to Tennessee, Jerry Sharrett is in the Eastern part of Tennessee (he posts here), as is Jeff Summers. Jeff doesn't post to BR central, but he does do things like win the Super Shoot (twice). Not sure where they shoot aside from Unaka, but I think there is another range involved with BR in Eastern Tennessee near the Carolina border.

Could be worse for you -- I live in Durham. Unaka is about a 4 hour drive for me & I've been known to go to matches there.

Boyd, on the other hand, lives in California...

Within the Tri-City area of East Tennessee (Bristol, Kingsport, Johnson City) we are fortunate to have 4 pretty nice gun clubs.

The best, Kettlefoot in Bristol has a new 30 bench HP range to 300 yards, a new 60 bench rimfire range that shoots PSL, ARA and IR 50/50. as well as 4 trap/skeet fields, Sporting Clays, 5-stand, 9 IDPA ranges, etc. (Open 24/7)

Second, Cherokee R&G in Kingsport, has 2 covered ranges to 200 yards (20 bench size) , 2 trap and 1 skeet field. Shoots a lot of vintage military, etc. (Open daylight to dark M-Sat, noon to 6PM Sundays.)

Third, Unaka, 20 bench covered to 200 yards, 4 trap/skeet fields...only problem here there must be a qualified range officer on duty to use these ranges.

Fourth, Wilderness Road, trap, skeet, ARA rimfire etc.

All the above have web sites.

Hunter
07-27-2013, 08:45 AM
all calibers shot are pluggged with a .30 this year, so a PPC is at no disadvantage.

That sounds like an interesting alternative to using the ultimate benchrest targets; I wonder why all clubs don't do that.

Charles E
07-27-2013, 05:06 PM
That sounds like an interesting alternative to using the ultimate benchrest targets; I wonder why all clubs don't do that.

Because the people who spend more money for the larger bullets and absorb the increased recoil, to get the advantage of a larger hole, would suddenly be disadvantaged.

The alternate view seems to be "we need more shooters." But then, if what you want is more shooters, why not offer sexual gratification, drugs, and booze? Whorehouses have a record of success dating back several millennium.

alinwa
07-27-2013, 05:16 PM
Because the people who spend more money for the larger bullets and absorb the increased recoil, to get the advantage of a larger hole, would suddenly be disadvantaged.

The alternate view seems to be "we need more shooters." But then, if what you want is more shooters, why not offer sexual gratification, drugs, and booze? Whorehouses have a record of success dating back several millennium.

Thank you Charles.

al-wish'tI'da'saidthat-inwa

JerrySharrett
07-27-2013, 05:53 PM
But then, if what you want is more shooters, why not offer sexual gratification, drugs, and booze? Whorehouses have a record of success dating back several millennium.

Cnarles, I stopped shooting trap because of all the sex, violence and money payoffs. Now you want to corrupt this upstanding sport!!

Charles E
07-27-2013, 06:12 PM
Cnarles, I stopped shooting trap because of all the sex, violence and money payoffs. Now you want to corrupt this upstanding sport!!No, I don't. I was one of the old geezers who remarked that the changes to American Skeet (allowing the shooter to start gun up & requiring an instantaneous pull) were a bad ideas. But everyone wanted to brag they broke 25 straight. Now many national-level shooters won't even go out on a windy day, for fear they won't go the whole year without a miss. And when we have to compete with the rest of the world, International style, we're at a disadvantage.

My only reason to get the 6PPC ready for club-level score matches is a fine long-range shooter wants to give point-blank a try, so I'll lend him a gun. And I'm selfish enough to want to shoot the match, too. But my PPC will be a .30...

Perhaps we're getting off-topic? IMSLTHO, What Mr. Singleton needs to do is go shoot, so when he shoots poorly, as almost all beginners do, he won't be trying to blame the performance on minor technical things.

Butch Lambert
07-27-2013, 06:37 PM
Now CharlesE,
I shot pretty good my first year. I did not know anything. I used 27.5 grains of H322, 68 grain Berger bullets just touching the lands. I changed nothing as I didn't know you could. I just watched the flags and shot. The next year I bought an additional rifle, fancier flags, 3 different types of bullets and so on. Second year was a disaster.
Tim will be fine.

skeetlee
08-06-2013, 04:34 PM
Boyd
I agree. Good post Charles!!! Lee

Tim Singleton
04-16-2014, 06:58 AM
Perhaps we're getting off-topic? IMSLTHO, What Mr. Singleton needs to do is go shoot, so when he shoots poorly, as almost all beginners do, he won't be trying to blame the performance on minor technical things.


I shot my first registered match this past weekend at Riverbend. More fun than I imagined. I didn't do to terribly bad placed 17th out of 29 in LV
Shot small group in HV and had a pretty decent agg going until I got my fingers in the wrong place while closing the bolt and touched a shot off that went an inch out of the group. This put me finishing 27 out of 29 in HV

I really want to thank Boyd and Butch for their help off and on over the last year. They have spent a lot of their time on the phone answering questions

Tim

Carson
02-07-2015, 03:39 AM
At this point, I wouldn't worry about it. Have you taken a look at the six segments of Jack Neary's workshop on Youtube? I believe that in one of them he speaks to this very issue. How much smaller is sizing making a tight case a little above the extractor groove, and how does your zero bump case feel when you chamber it?

Wow!

Those were some great video's. Shooting used to be pretty simple. Now it seems the more I learn is that I don't know much.

Link for the first one;

Jack Neary Rifle tuning part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZWvn68bRU