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ehkempf
06-15-2013, 12:09 PM
I just recently got one of David Tubbís Speedlock firing pin assemblies for a Rem. 40X.. What use to be a one piece firing pin spring, is now a two piece spring. The coils are facing each other (two equal halves one facing right one left, so to speak) . Has anyone heard anything about this, is it effective? I found no info about this new concept on Davidís web site. Any thoughts?

Ed

DeltaBravo
06-15-2013, 01:52 PM
Have you used it and are you sure it's not broken? I had a Tubb spring in my rem 700 and it broke. I think it was too long and rubbed on the bolt, but not sure. He replaced the broken one but it looked too long as well and I ended up using someone else's setup - don't recall who, but it came from either Midway or Sinclair.

Dennis

ehkempf
06-15-2013, 02:48 PM
Have you used it and are you sure it's not broken? I had a Tubb spring in my rem 700 and it broke. I think it was too long and rubbed on the bolt, but not sure. He replaced the broken one but it looked too long as well and I ended up using someone else's setup - don't recall who, but it came from either Midway or Sinclair.

Dennis

No it's not broke. Talked to one of the tech's at Superior Shooting (David Tubb's site) and he confirmed it. If it were broke all the coils would probably be facing in the same direction.

Ed

Butch Lambert
06-15-2013, 10:10 PM
Ed,
What do you think it will do for you?

ehkempf
06-16-2013, 06:44 AM
Ed,
What do you think it will do for you?

I am not really sure. The original CS spring was suppose to aid in faster lock time. The other claim that over time, repeated firings, would loose very little of their overall length, strength as compaired to standard music wire type springs. I would think, because of the oposing spring direction, they would tend to not take a "set" as fast as a spring with the coils all going in the same direction. That is why I asked the original question, wanted other opinions or experiences.

Ed

R.G. Robinett
06-17-2013, 09:10 AM
I just recently got one of David Tubbís Speedlock firing pin assemblies for a Rem. 40X.. What use to be a one piece firing pin spring, is now a two piece spring. The coils are facing each other (two equal halves one facing right one left, so to speak) . Has anyone heard anything about this, is it effective? I found no info about this new concept on Davidís web site. Any thoughts?

Ed

Cannot comment regarding the effectiveness of such a spring. However, if the pressure exceeds 24#, and especially if it's a 30#er, and the timing (bolt:receiver) is not near perfect, the "excessive" pressure will rapidly wear the cocking/extraction cam, on the bolt-handle, limiting/reducing primary extraction. On a Remington, if the gap between the [forward] face of the bolt-handle, and the [rear] face of the receiver exceeds 0.010", you're already giving up a substantial amount of surface contact between the receiver-cam and the bolt-handle cam. Good shootin'! RG

ehkempf
06-17-2013, 09:36 AM
Cannot comment regarding the effectiveness of such a spring. However, if the pressure exceeds 24#, and especially if it's a 30#er, and the timing (bolt:receiver) is not near perfect, the "excessive" pressure will rapidly wear the cocking/extraction cam, on the bolt-handle, limiting/reducing primary extraction. On a Remington, if the gap between the [forward] face of the bolt-handle, and the [rear] face of the receiver exceeds 0.010", you're already giving up a substantial amount of surface contact between the receiver-cam and the bolt-handle cam. Good shootin'! RG

I have to problem with what you have said. I would think the David Tubb and his team have done enough research and testing not to put out a product that would be harmful to the proper functiong of a Remington. A two piece firing pin spring is a new concept, at lease to me, that is why I created the original post. I would assume, hate to use that word, that the two piece spring is no different in pressure weight than the original CS spring. The CS spring has been on the market for some time and I have not heard any bad things about it.

Ed

82boy
06-17-2013, 09:59 AM
I have to agree with RG.
I think Tony Boyer put the best analogy of this in has book. He basically says that trying to change out to heavier springs is like having a door our of alignment on your car, that instead of putting it back in alignment you just slam it harder. Just because someone makes something doesn't mean they know what they are making. All they are doing is filling a nitch in the market where they see a potential sales. It all comes down to money, if enough people want something then someone will give it to them in order to make a few bucks. Then when that dies, out they will change the design again call it new and improved, and sell a bunch more. When Mike Walker designed the Remington 700 he used a 24 lbs spring for a reason.

MarkR
06-17-2013, 10:28 AM
I bought one of those spring/firing pin sets from Tubb 3 years ago. I sent it to Greg Tannel who was also doing a bushing job on my 40X bolt at the same time. He called me and told me both the spring and firing pin were useless and wanted permission to replace with new factory stuff, modified for the smaller firing pin diameter of course. He said the spring had too much tension and rubbed the bolt severely and that the firing pin was warped. I sent them back to Tubb and finally got my money back.

expiper
06-17-2013, 10:30 AM
Ed,,,there are a lot of replacement products out there that are no better than the original...plutonium fireing pins,,kryptonite ball bearings,,snake oil !!!,,,,if you need a new spring call Kelblys ,,,they have ones that are proven to be the right stuff,,,Roger

Gunner223
06-17-2013, 02:00 PM
My experience is the stronger spring causes harder bolt lift and wears the skin off of my hand unless the knurling is removed from the bolt handle. I don't recall ever having a misfire with a factory spring.

Don

R.G. Robinett
06-18-2013, 08:46 AM
I have to problem with what you have said. I would think the David Tubb and his team have done enough research and testing not to put out a product that would be harmful to the proper functiong of a Remington. A two piece firing pin spring is a new concept, at lease to me, that is why I created the original post. I would assume, hate to use that word, that the two piece spring is no different in pressure weight than the original CS spring. The CS spring has been on the market for some time and I have not heard any bad things about it.

Ed

Ed, you need to slow down and READ the words, and what I will add below - especially the part regarding the 'timing' ("if the pressure exceeds 24#, and especially if it's a 30#er, and the timing (bolt:receiver) is not near perfect, the "excessive" pressure will rapidly wear the cocking/extraction cam, on the bolt-handle, limiting/reducing primary extraction.") I neither criticized MR. Tubb , nor his product - I merely pointed out the very REAL potential - improper timing (bolt-handle location) is VERY COMMON mechanical issue on Remington bolts. The gap-space often far exceeding the maximum 0.010" clearance: more clearance than this greatly REDUCES the cam contact, and when combined with a heavier than standard spring, RAPIDLY wears the rear corner of the bolt-cam, thus REDUCING primary extraction. This problem is solved by moving the bolt-handle forward.

'Way back' in the late 80's/early 90's, a fair number of us, experimented with heavy (30 Lb. or so) springs and/or, ultra light firing-pins: hypothetically, to reduce lock-time, thus improve precision . . .
that fad didn't last long - we determined that the heavier springs and titanium, etc., pins were detrimental to precision shooting. Please do not take this as slandering Mr. Tubb, it is simply a statement of the collective experience of competitive bench-rest shooters, which was well documented in the pages of the now defunct PRECISION SHOOTING MAGAZINE. :cool:

For all I know, dual springs may prove to be, "the cat's meow" - but, especially, if 'heavy' will not lessen the issue of an improperly 'timed' bolt-handle. Keep 'em ON the X! RG

Butch Lambert
06-18-2013, 11:00 AM
Ed,
You will find very few people that have the knowledge and real life experience that Mr. Robinett has.

fatelvis111
08-06-2017, 09:37 PM
After watching his short video, the two springs are wound in opposite directions, eliminating any spring release torque. This eliminates the bolt handle from jumping at the time of sear release, translating into a smoother shot.

JerrySharrett
08-07-2017, 05:50 AM
After watching his short video, the two springs are wound in opposite directions, eliminating any spring release torque. This eliminates the bolt handle from jumping at the time of sear release, translating into a smoother shot.

I've installed 4 in my Pandas. Doesn't seem to reduce bolt handle jump but does "seem" to have faster lock time.On a couple of my Pandas I can't get the cross pin out??

.

Boyd Allen
08-07-2017, 09:56 AM
I have installed the double spring on my Viper and a friend has installed them in a couple of Pandas. The weight is about 25#, there is less vibration when you dry fire, and the lift in the top half of the bolt's opening is slightly reduced. I am surprised that so many have commented on what they have no experience with. The dual spring is really a separate subject from light pins. A friend built a fat bolt action that had room for thrust bearings at the end(s?) of his firing pin spring. He told me that doing that (with a one piece spring) noticeably reduced bolt lift. When a one piece spring compresses, evidently the end has to rotate slightly relative to the surface that it bears on. This friction is added to the effort it takes to compress the spring but does not contribute to the energy imparted to the firing pin. When the rifle is fired, the spring moves against the surface again, and that movement evidently causes some vibration. The issue of pin weight is, I believe, related to tip diameter in that a larger tip has different requirements than a smaller one. I have a light pin that I have tried with various weight springs and it seems to have worked with all of them. My viper has a nominal .062 pin tip. This diameter results in higher unit loading at a given pin and spring weight. The reason that I tried the light pin was not for decreased lock time but rather to reduce the disturbance of the rifle during firing, sacrificing some momentum but retaining energy, which may be more the issue for reliable ignition of primers up to a point. If you look at the cross hairs the light pin has the desired effect, and I can detect no decrease in ignition performance. This is not to say that there would not be one with a larger diameter pin tip. Bottom line the Tub dual spring gives a slightly easier bolt lift, less bolt vibration, and does so without reducing force imparted to the pin. It is made from material that is superior to the factory spring and should therefore retain its compressed weight longer.

crb
08-07-2017, 10:25 PM
Unless I'm missing something the firing pin of a Remington does not rotate. It's pinned to the cocking piece which rides in the trigger side plates. No rotation.

coyotechet
08-07-2017, 11:17 PM
Hello crb Not sure where you got that the Firing Pin it's self-was rotating. But here is what Mr. Allen said

(( When a one piece spring compresses, evidently the end has to rotate slightly relative to the surface that it bears on.)) ;)

Chet

crb
08-08-2017, 08:04 AM
Hello crb Not sure where you got that the Firing Pin it's self-was rotating. But here is what Mr. Allen said

(( When a one piece spring compresses, evidently the end has to rotate slightly relative to the surface that it bears on.)) ;)

Chet

You are right. My apologies.

Boyd Allen
08-08-2017, 12:33 PM
In my previous post on this thread I got so wound up on other things that I forgot to put in something that is important to the understanding of how the dual spring setup works. The springs are wound in opposite directions, one clockwise, the other counterclockwise. This is done so that the rotation of the springs as they compress and extend cancel out. There is no motion at the ends that bear on the shroud and firing pin shoulder. The issue resolves itself where the two springs meet because as one spring rotates in one direction at that end, the other rotates in the opposite direction so that they cancel each other out. Each "lets" the other go where it wants to. As a result, there is no torque applied to the bolt, no jiggle as the ends slide against their abutments, and no additional force required to compress them from friction against their outer ends as they move. IMO that is the reason for the reduction in lift as the bolt handle reaches the top of its opening stroke.

mturner
08-09-2017, 01:08 AM
Boyd has done a very good job of describing the dual spring setup. I have personally installed one of these springs, and I like it very well. Keep in mind that these springs are stock pressure springs, so they don't have problems that are normally present with stronger springs as mentioned by Robinette. These springs are also made from chrome silicon alloy steel. This is the same type of spring steel that is used in valve springs that make millions of cycles, so your firing pin striking force will not weaken over time like a standard music wire spring. These springs also claim to decrease lock time, since energy is not lost in a radial torquing motion.

Michael

DTubb
08-09-2017, 11:53 AM
:rolleyes: Made my day..
Thanks Boyd..

WSnyder
08-31-2017, 01:40 PM
I've played with one of the duo springs. Some observations: When installed the center ring between the springs can end up cocked at an angle depending on where you place the spring ends in relation to the ring. If you match the ends of the springs at the ring it is close to no angle but still not perfect. There can be a fair amount of drag felt between the ring and pin when manipulated with a pin removal tool. The ring moves back and forth on the pin when it is cycled. Does this matter? I wouldn't think we would want to add any drag/binding into this mechanism over a standard spring. Also the ring appears to be water jetted or something and isn't finished very well that adds to the drag. I made a new one with a radiused and polished inner surface and hardened it. That seemed to lessen the binding/drag. I ended up re-grinding the ends of the springs to minimize the cocking/binding/angle. I've had to re-grind ends of other springs to keep them from cocking over at the end causing drag on the pin.

Thoughts?

Boyd Allen
09-01-2017, 12:57 AM
Sounds like some very exacting detail work. I'm impressed. For some reason it reminds me of a story that is sort of related (sort of, kind of, maybe...perhaps not).

Some years back a friend and I were on one of the firing lines at a local range, shooting next to a strapping young fellow who was laboring over a plastic stocked, bipod equipped, 700 sporter chambered in .300 UM. It seems that his three shot groups (using factory ammo.) had inexplicably increased from a little over an inch, to twice that. He asked us what the cause might be. After taking a look at the bore to see if it looked particularly fouled, and learning that it had received an occasional bore snaking, I asked him if he had tightened the action screws. Turns out that he did not even know that he was supposed to. Opening my range kit, I got out the appropriate Chapman bit, extension, ratchet and handle and set about snugging up his action bolts by feel, remembering that this was a plastic stock with no pillars. After that, he sat down and shot a three shot group at an 8" orange "aiming" dot at 100 yards. It was a fresh target, and those three shots could literally be covered with a dime. Seeing that, I told him that he should save the target and put no more holes in it. I signed and dated it for him, and I am told that it has a permanent place on the wall behind his desk in the building inspection department of a nearby city. Oh, I forgot to mention that the action had one of the J lock striker assemblies, the ones with the badly snaked striker springs that rub in several places. My point is that often we (including myself) are only guessing about cause and effect, because in many cases that is the best that we can do. Over the years I have seen some improbable combinations shoot and some that should have not.

alinwa
09-01-2017, 01:41 AM
Thanks to all of you for an informative read and Thank You GranDmaster Tubb for continuing to stretch the box.... alla'you'se are a credit to the Shooting Sports.