PDA

View Full Version : IBS and Precision Shooting Magazine



Jeff Stover
11-16-2012, 03:48 PM
Since 1970, the IBS has used Precision Shooting magazine as it official publication; the magazine ceased printing effective November 2012. Obviously, this situation is not of our making yet we have to deal with it nevertheless. As a result of PS's apparent demise, the IBS must seek another way to keep its membership informed. The Executive Board met via teleconference on November 15, 2012 and voted to put the issue to the membership.

Agenda item ballots will be mailed on or about November 28th and will also include a simple survey form. Members will be asked to register their preference for one of two options. Those options are: integrate IBS information and match reports into Precision Rifleman (the new NBRSA magazine), which will require a dues increase to $60; OR use the current IBS website-with enhancements-as the way to communicate with members. The latter option will result in a reduction in dues by 20% to 40%.

All ballots and surveys must be postmarked by January 1, 2013-I encourage ALL members to respond. The Executive Board will make a final decision on January 12th.

Jeff Stover
IBS President

Butch Lambert
11-16-2012, 08:52 PM
So no magazine for a slight decrease in membership or a Slight increase to have a magazine? Jeff, I think we need to know real numbers as best possible instead of your post. Give us a real figure both ways instead of increase and reduction for no PS. Not jumping on you, just need better info.

Jeff Stover
11-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Butch, the numbers are in there. $60 with PR magazine. If we go web site it will be $30-$40 depending on what it costs us to bring in a web consultant to make some structural improvements to the web site. My guess for the latter is $30-$35 without magazine. I am not sure $5 is going to sway a person either way.

jks

Butch Lambert
11-16-2012, 09:55 PM
Jeff,
I know that you have a lot on your plate. I have been a member for a couple years. I liked the mag. even as lacking as it has been for the last few years. Just wanting to know what it will be like later.

Randy Jarvais
11-17-2012, 08:38 AM
I wonder how many IBS members are without internet access, either because they do not have the technological or monetary means?
In Maine, I know some of our regular shooters do not have a computer. Randy J.

jim1K
11-17-2012, 09:06 AM
Jeff, What about this year,with 6+ months and no PS. ? Next year will be what it is. .... jim

Markhor
11-17-2012, 10:12 AM
Internet would be the way to go, print medium is on its way out. These days most publications including Newsweek have all gone to an Internet format.

Ed

jim1K
11-17-2012, 10:29 AM
Ed, what about people that don't have internet? They have to pay for a service they can not receive?..... jim

glp
11-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Good Lord.
In this day and age everyone has some way of accessing the internet if they try..........
But then there are always those who want a free lunch also.

Some don't want anything to do with the Internet or computers. We can't dismiss them. The few there are could be catered to via mail.

Wilbur
11-17-2012, 11:52 AM
Some don't want anything to do with the Internet or computers. We can't dismiss them. The few there are could be catered to via mail.

These few can be dismissed. Won't hurt their feelings one bit. It's the right time to make the transition but do it right. Likely, reducing the membership dues isn't a good idea for the moment. Website maintenance to the extent needed is expensive. You get what you pay for.

eggman
11-17-2012, 12:10 PM
These few can be dismissed. Won't hurt their feelings one bit. It's the right time to make the transition but do it right. Likely, reducing the membership dues isn't a good idea for the moment. Website maintenance to the extent needed is expensive. You get what you pay for.

I think Wilbur makes a very good point . Keep the dues the same and enhance the current website and update it weekly with match information and results.

Jefferson
11-17-2012, 12:43 PM
most members who wish to access the internet do so here, pay wilbur 1000 per month to use a forum on this site and pay someone 500 a month to put stuff on it there done, at 18g a year (need a coffee break not as I want ot be a union employee and must exercise)

the new NBRSA mag nice but not worth what they are paying for it, the results could be placed on the net for much less, the era of framing the results has passed (or at least my winning so I could frame them has passed)

Jefferson

Wilbur
11-17-2012, 02:35 PM
The cost of producing a magazine worth the paper it's written on would buy one helluva website.

Incidentally, I've "almost been there" countless times with such a website and have a pretty good idea of what's required to make it happen. I'll help any way I can for the asking. Pretty much, it needs a CMS backdrop for the semi-static information and database driven content for the dynamic stuff like match results.

The current IBS website is pretty good!

glp
11-17-2012, 02:45 PM
These few can be dismissed. Won't hurt their feelings one bit. It's the right time to make the transition but do it right. Likely, reducing the membership dues isn't a good idea for the moment. Website maintenance to the extent needed is expensive. You get what you pay for.

Curmudgeon! Grouch! Then again you may be right...depending on who the few are?

glp
11-17-2012, 02:49 PM
The current IBS website is pretty good!

The really good part of it is how darn diligent Dick Grosbier is in posting new material, mostly shoot reports. Second to none!

Wilbur
11-17-2012, 04:09 PM
Curmudgeon! Grouch! Then again you may be right...depending on who the few are?

I'm sure you're on the money with the "depending" disclaimer.

Years ago, when new browser versions and PC architecture were almost a daily occurrence, I fretted about those that would be left behind if we changed web pages to the latest greatest. My son Elmer and I fought constantly as his thoughts were along the lines of not waiting on anybody. As far as I can tell he was right - which makes me wrong and I hate it when that happens.

glp
11-17-2012, 04:40 PM
I'm sure you're on the money with the "depending" disclaimer.
. My son Elmer and I fought constantly as his thoughts were along the lines of not waiting on anybody. As far as I can tell he was right - which makes me wrong and I hate it when that happens.

You're amongst the many on that feeling!

MRL
11-19-2012, 12:34 PM
I think do the website. Keep the dues the same and use the difference in cost to be used to prompte BR/IBS and to offset future cost increases that are sure to come. Twenty dollars will not likely make or break someone for a year, but if it is used with a thought to the future of the sprot or IBS then if it is used wisely the funds could make a difference in the sport.

Boyd Allen
11-19-2012, 01:02 PM
All of this could be done fairly simply, if all match directors would simply scan their results, and equipment lists, and instead of saving as PDFs or documents, saved them as JPEGs (pictures). This allows them to be uploaded to FREE photo hosting web sites, that will provide links to the files, as well as any accompanying pictures, which can be organized into an album for that match. These links can simply be emailed to all the members, and the documents and pictures saved on their computers, if they like, as well as being posted on the IBS web site. Of course copies of the files should be archived in case there is a problem with the hosting site. You guys need to put your check books back in your pockets, and use what is available for free, except for paying someone to organize the albums and email the links, which should take a minimum of effort.

The key is to get all of the match directors set up so that they can provide the needed files in a timely manner. While PDFs and documents can be converted, it is easier to simply save the scans as JPEGs (pictures) in the first place.

Charles E
11-19-2012, 01:14 PM
PDFs contain searchable data. Images do not. Finding so & so when there is 100 people at a match can be hard. Equipment lists. Lots of reasons to have searchable data, at least, at some point. I'm assuming people want more than a list of winners? If not, what is the IBS role, anyway? The hosting club can post an image...

Chisolm
11-19-2012, 01:19 PM
All of this could be done fairly simply, if all match directors would simply scan their results, and equipment lists, and instead of saving as PDFs or documents, saved them as JPEGs (pictures). This allows them to be uploaded to FREE photo hosting web sites, that will provide links to the files, as well as any accompanying pictures, which can be organized into an album for that match. These links can simply be emailed to all the members, and the documents and pictures saved on their computers, if they like, as well as being posted on the IBS web site. Of course copies of the files should be archived in case there is a problem with the hosting site. You guys need to put your check books back in your pockets, and use what is available for free, except for paying someone to organize the albums and email the links, which should take a minimum of effort.

The key is to get all of the match directors set up so that they can provide the needed files in a timely manner. While PDFs and documents can be converted, it is easier to simply save the scans as JPEGs (pictures) in the first place.
Boyd,
I mean no offence but that is a terrible idea.
Image files (jpg gif etc.) are large files PDF files and word documents are tiny. PDF and word files are also searchable. One can also copy and paste from .doc or .pdf files to combine matches to figure multiple match target aggs. Not important to short range but it is for Long Range.



James

Boyd Allen
11-19-2012, 01:26 PM
Charles,
Sanctioning bodies provide rules and a basis for establishing records, a mechanism for settling disagreements, as well as maintaining continuity over time. They can also make changes and plan for the future in an organized manner.

If someone is at a match, he will have to look down the page to see who did what. If he prints the image file at home, he will be in the same position as if he were there, or had received them in a publication. As it is, the whole list is not commonly published, except at the match, and for the largest matches.
Boyd

Wilbur
11-19-2012, 01:53 PM
Concerning match results....

The ONLY way is to make it easy for the clubs to submit the results. The ONLY way to make it easy is to supply them a scoring program that uploads the scores without further formatting. The uploaded scores would then be automagically imported into a database for search and display.

Behold the IR50/50 website - http://ir5050.com

Every score related page there comes from a database on request. The "running totals" are calculated from the database as well. Doug Weeter wrote an Excel scoring program that formats the results for the clubs to send in by email. The site admin copies the scores straight into the database and invokes a program that does the rest. What is missing there is the ability for the club to upload scores straight to the site thus eliminating the middle man - which is always gonna be slower and an unnecessary dependency.

Boyd Allen
11-19-2012, 03:25 PM
I did not mean to say that the material could not be saved, and made available in more than one way. I was merely talking of alternatives for the common distribution of match results in a manner that would be easy and virtually without cost. All that would be sent would be the links, so file size is not an issue. As it is, match results in print have none of the search, or copy, and paste options. Of course there are more sophisticated ways to handle this, but if having them in a magazine is satisfactory, except for the cost, than having the equivalent to what would have been in the magazine should be a viable option. The software that Wilbur wrote of has been available for some time, and it has not even come close to being universally adopted, so it seems to me that making plans based on the assumption that it will be is a bit premature. An example of the sort of link that I wrote of (Try it. It works.) :

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af340/fresburgflash/EastWest053.jpg


(http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af340/fresburgflash/EastWest053.jpg)

Charles E
11-19-2012, 03:34 PM
By the way, in case people don't know of this, the OpenOffice products have been available to users for free, for years. We got tired of paying for Microsoft's products about 5-6 years ago, and have been using it in our office ever since

http://www.openoffice.org/

Chisolm
11-19-2012, 04:47 PM
By the way, in case people don't know of this, the OpenOffice products have been available to users for free, for years. We got tired of paying for Microsoft's products about 5-6 years ago, and have been using it in our office ever since

http://www.openoffice.org/

Very good advice Charles and it is available for Windows, Linux, and MAC.


James

Wilbur
11-19-2012, 06:47 PM
Not talking about available software but rather a turnkey scoring program that does it all - like Bughole but with an upload function.

Go home, connect to the i'net, run the saved scoring program and, voila!...the results appear on the website.

Pete Wass
11-19-2012, 08:32 PM
Not talking about available software but rather a turnkey scoring program that does it all - like Bughole but with an upload function.

Go home, connect to the i'net, run the saved scoring program and, voila!...the results appear on the website.

We used the Scoring program for our 50/50 matches in Maine this past season and after a learning curve, we did fine with it. I sure like the being able to email the results in and being able to print the Awards Cirtificates for the folks who placed in just a few minutes after the protest period ends. It didn't cost us a whole lot for awards this year. Of course I am the one who has the $$$ invested in the Laptop, Printer and Inverter, for my car, to run the printer with but then I wanted the computer and printer for home anyway, the inverter was less than $20. and I don't mind sharing. Mostly, I wanted our shoots to be a success for the participants, the Club and the Org. We did that. I feel the cost to me was well worth what I spent and I get to use the machines all the time at home. It sure is nice to be able to scan a document I needed to sign to a file then email it to who it needs to go to. I do have a problem with not being able to use the Microsoft Email Function and the shop where I bought the computer said they couldn't help as the Microsoft Email function was a mystery to them as well.

What I haven't said yet is I had the help of a professional IT person who is Jo Hassam, a shooter and great person. She made the learning curve shorter. Thank You Jo!

That program works well but it requires learning how to use it and going by the directions. It is not very forgiving, from my experience, but it is fantastic in what it allows us to do with it. SAVE ! EVERY TIME.

Having said that, there is no way to make a horse drink, I have always heard so those who are not Computer Interested are never going to be. It is hinted at, at least, one reason for the demise of the magazine was the Horse would not drinking so perhaps we who do sip now and again should let thoese who won't remain at the edge of the water. Sad set of circumstances but then Wilbur's Son was right.

With a Microsoft Tablet, a printer, a Smart Phone and inverter, one can do everything we did with my laptop AND email the results in from the range :-)

Wilbur
11-19-2012, 10:56 PM
OK, here's what I'm talking about - I've got time now to explain. My stock pot is bubbling nicely and shouldn't need attention for a good while.

The scoring program I imagine is downloaded from the internet and installed as a standalone program - needs nothing else to run.

Once installed, and prior to each match, the user clicks "Update" and the program gets the latest list of competitor names, match schedules, records, club info and membership dates from the internet.

The user selects the scheduled match from a dropdown list and is ready to go. The program already knows what classes and yardages to present from the schedule data.

Enter the competitor names using the very convenient method that Bughole now uses. In case y'all haven't had the pleasure, Bughole does this best. The only way it could be better is if it already had the names of folks that have previously competed - and it would.

Select a few exceptions for those competitors that aren't shooting the entire match, group those that are sharing flags and click "draw benches". Hang out the result so folks can set flags and wait for tomorrow.

Bughole has a good interface for entering scores as well. Would be difficult to improve. If somebody shoots a record the program would say so.

Of course, the class and multi-gun results would print along the way - Bughole does this well.

Match over, trophies passed out, everybody on the road home...the Match Director goes home, opens the program, types up a match "report" (optional) and clicks "SEND RESULTS". Surely a password would be involved but the program uploads the results, new competitor data, and the match report. The website automatically creates a link and formats the results for viewing when requested. Each competitor is sent an email notification that the results are available and a link to the same. Next match anywhere, the new competitor data would be available. Oh yeah, and the program prints out a voucher telling the club treasurer how much to send to "headquarters".

This is doable. In fact, I've already done it sans the user friendly interface that is so very important. The mechanics are simple...it's that darn interface...

Plenty of upsides but there's also a few downsides. The upsides are obvious. The downsides are that any course of fire changes would require a re-write and it's too easy to dream up additional capabilities. For example, the NBRSA could use the data to instantly calculate and display world team standings...or shooter of the year for the individual regions.

Soooo..., what you have is a self sustaining, no middle man required, method of doing everything the competitor cares about.

Randy Jarvais
11-20-2012, 08:50 AM
I have used Doug Weeter's score program for multiple years. Almost all entries are from a dropdown menu which works well but it also necessitates plenty of data entries to update the dropdown menus, particularly the equipment lists. There are a limited number of choices with some of the fields. The program has an "email results" option which converts the programs data into an excel file with a sheet for results and a sheet for equipment, of which you save and email out as an excel or as a pdf file. I have found it easier to enter the equipment at that juncture instead of entering it into the scoring program itself. It wouldn't be if people didn't change equipment much but they do (at least for the shoots I do). The drop down menues of the scoring program vs the entry completion of excel goes to excel for speed of entry. As fine a program as Mr. Weeter has devised, it still takes me upwards of an hour or two to complete the entry data before sending it to Dick for the IBS website. Obviously if someone could manage the data entry while at the match, then it would not need to be done by me after getting home but as it is, we have barely enough people to run the match.

If something can be tweeked as Wilbur suggests then it would be a big plus for the people responsible to report the match results.
Randy J.

Charles E
11-20-2012, 09:21 AM
Wilbur, partly I'm just being lazy, but also, I'm not a programmer. A significant part of the IBS schedule now is long range, 600 and 1,000 yards, each using slightly different scoring systems, but both needing to keep track of both score and group, and for 600 yards, aggs in both.

Can the bughole program handle that?

Wilbur
11-20-2012, 03:57 PM
No, nothing in existence right now is adequate. I referenced Bughole only as examples of what the user interface should be. Further, I don't believe a "one size fits all" would be a good thing....but I could easily be wrong. Each discipline would need it's own scoring program uploading to a common area.

Wilbur
11-20-2012, 04:15 PM
How exact and how necessary is the equipment list anyway.

Can't speak to necessary as I've tried to get rid of them and failed. Got out voted by folks that never had to type one up.

As to exact, the current accuracy of equipment listings would be no less accurate if members simply updated their equipment within their "member profile" on this dream website.

Go here - http://www.ir5050.com/results2?Date=10/13/12&clubid=94

Hover your mouse pointer over the first name in the listing - Greg Davis. The info that appears is automatic from the database. By automatic, I mean that nobody has to keep it updated. The equipment in this case was reported by the match director but it could just as easily (easier on the match director) have been drawn from a user profile.

Pete Wass
11-20-2012, 05:10 PM
Can't speak to necessary as I've tried to get rid of them and failed. Got out voted by folks that never had to type one up.

As to exact, the current accuracy of equipment listings would be no less accurate if members simply updated their equipment within their "member profile" on this dream website.

Go here - http://www.ir5050.com/results2?Date=10/13/12&clubid=94

Hover your mouse pointer over the first name in the listing - Greg Davis. The info that appears is automatic from the database. By automatic, I mean that nobody has to keep it updated. The equipment in this case was reported by the match director but it could just as easily (easier on the match director) have been drawn from a user profile.

In my opinion, the Equipment list is useless unless the competitor tells the truth and even at that, what exactly IS the point of it anyway? All it does at ths point is give some folks things to argue about, I.E. which Gunsmith's work won the latest big match. I am of a mind that the shooter won the match and made all the right choices.

cbrock
11-21-2012, 11:54 PM
Good Evening, Is it possible,(read likely), that if we opted to publish info and match results in the NBRSA mag, sharing that venue and the info might bring the two organizations closer together? I don't think it would hurt. But I've only been shooting for 3 years. I'd be interested in what saltier shooters think. Also, the internet is great, but there are few pleasures equal to sitting down with a cup of coffee and a good book, PS qualifies. imho.------ Cheers, Charles

Charles E
11-22-2012, 03:35 AM
Good Evening, Is it possible,(read likely), that if we opted to publish info and match results in the NBRSA mag, sharing that venue and the info might bring the two organizations closer together? I don't think it would hurt. But I've only been shooting for 3 years. I'd be interested in what saltier shooters think. Also, the internet is great, but there are few pleasures equal to sitting down with a cup of coffee and a good book, PS qualifies. imho.------ Cheers, Charles
Well, it is possible. It makes sense for the shooters, but don't think it could happen just now. The rift was wide & deep, and oddly enough, one of the causes for the split was the publication.

In the 1990s, benchrest grew, substantially. It seems to be shrinking again. Nowadays, "benchrest" seems to be about competition only, particularly in short-range group & score, though the "competition only" trend is growing in long-range too. Not sure if that would help a merger, or hinder it.

On the plus-for-merger side, there is less & less cross coverage, with NBRSA shooting mainly group, IBS mainly score and long range. But NBRSA just added the equivalent of VFS, and then there are all those separate records...

We all do agree about the coffee...

dmoran65
11-22-2012, 02:16 PM
Questions for those wanting a magazine:
- Do you want a magazine to see the IBS criteria or just for the magazine itself ?
- Did you like the IBS coverage as was in PS ?
I may very well be wrong here..... but can't help but feel those wanting a magazine again are wanting it for a magazine to read/view, and not so much as to the IBS coverage.
Myself, I liked PS for a magazine on a whole, but not at all as to the IBS coverage.

As to IBS results, schedules, records, news, standings, etc.... I find best coverage to these aspects on the Website in good detail, that were only partial depictions in PS, far from adequate coverage, that was marginal at best.
Many range results never or hardly ever got published, and very little coverage to details. And very poor coverage of IBS business all together.

IBS Member
Donovan Moran

Denny Andrews
11-22-2012, 06:12 PM
Hi Jeff:
How to we renew or join IBS without going thru PS?

Dick Grosbier
11-22-2012, 09:59 PM
Hi Jeff:
How to we renew or join IBS without going thru PS?

Try this instead.

http://internationalbenchrest.com/join/index.php

Wilbur
11-23-2012, 06:13 AM
In my opinion, the Equipment list is useless unless the competitor tells the truth and even at that, what exactly IS the point of it anyway? All it does at ths point is give some folks things to argue about, I.E. which Gunsmith's work won the latest big match. I am of a mind that the shooter won the match and made all the right choices.

Your comment about the gunsmith argument got me thinking...I don't recall such an argument within the ranks of centerfire shooters - unlike rimfire. Wonder what's up with that...?

JackieStogsdill
11-23-2012, 09:16 AM
I was told that Calfee said centerfire was easy to build compared to rimfire.

Mike Bryant
11-23-2012, 01:26 PM
In my opinion, the Equipment list is useless unless the competitor tells the truth and even at that, what exactly IS the point of it anyway? All it does at ths point is give some folks things to argue about, I.E. which Gunsmith's work won the latest big match. I am of a mind that the shooter won the match and made all the right choices.

The equipment list is only as good as the competitor makes it. Sometimes the equipment list may be filled out several months before the match on some of the larger matches with pre-registration. By the time the match gets here, he may not even be shooting the same rifle that's listed on the equipment list. The competitor has to take the time to update it. For most of us, it doesn't make much difference what we put on the equipment list as you have to win or place at the top for it to ever be seen.

By the way, in case someone is politically correct, I know that there are women competitors, but when I was in school, I was taught to use he for both male and female where both are involved. I see no reason to change that rule of the English language to be politically correct. (The he in bold is what I'm talking about as probably politically incorrect anymore)

Greyfox
11-23-2012, 03:24 PM
My point in bringing up the equipment list issue is that it is NOT important.
I didn't understand the quotes and the mention of being politically correct.

Francis,
I will tend to agree with you, but IMO opinion more importantly it's also time consuming. When I was running IBS VFS matches here, Sunday mornings after a match were a major PIA. It usualy took a couple of hours to match up the equipment lists from the sign up sheets to the computer data. Then I had to get the mailing list together for all the copies required to send to people who wouldn't get them in an email, which included Precision Shooting. Life is much easier now with UBR.

I do think Wilbur has an excellent idea. A universal program that will handle both score & group that can be accessed by match directors, with the results available online for all to see is a good one. Printed media is a thing of the past. People can either get on board or be left behind to catch up later. It would be stupid to hold everyone back for the few who refuse to deal with the available technology that makes life simpler. JMO

Rick

Charles E
11-23-2012, 08:33 PM
Printed media is a thing of the past. People can either get on board or be left behind to catch up later.

Rick

Future projection of book sales is that digital editions may make up as much as 50% total sales...

Actually, I'll bet is splits with a higher than 50% rate for mass-market paperbacks going digital, and lower for books that need to present data, or images.

What you've said is sort of like "bolt action rifles are a thing of the past."

In the end, the better media, like rifles, depends on what you want to do.

Greyfox
11-23-2012, 08:52 PM
Future projection of book sales is that digital editions may make up as much as 50% total sales...

Actually, I'll bet is splits with a higher than 50% rate for mass-market paperbacks going digital, and lower for books that need to present data, or images.

What you've said is sort of like "bolt action rifles are a thing of the past."

In the end, the better media, like rifles, depends on what you want to do.


Charles,
Actually I "pulled the trigger" a little too quick on that one. I was really thinking about magazines more than books and such. I do prefer real books to digital stuff myself. I think specialized things like we are talking about probably won't be cost effective in printed form. Also, I've thought for years that information is more easily found/shared on forums like this than in magazine form. That has been one of the complaints about PS and VHM for quite some time. Do you think there are enough folks who want reading material for their "personal alone time" to pay the bills for a slick paper publication? Maybe, but I doubt it. But hey, what do I know?

Rick

Charles E
11-23-2012, 10:10 PM
For equipment lists, the current problem is the table structure of "digital publishing," aside from PDF. Yeah, EPUB3 has the spec, but try to use it. On multiple devices. I have no doubt that will be attended to.

One thing about any kind of digital publishing versus print publishing, is speed. Since it can be fast, there is considerable effort spent to get it out there fast. The vetting part of conventional publishing is often lacking. Whether or not PS fell into that trap is a real issue.

Personally, I don't think print is needed for match reports. The old NBRSA News was just match reports. It was mailed to the door, but I didn't read it. Occasionally I looked at the pictures to see what some people looked like. Saw my first picture of Don in Redondo in a match report. I remember that. Not the match info.

* * *

The real question of print versus digital to me, is what does NBRSA and IBS want to do? If simply to give reports on competitions, what's the need for print? I guess seeing your name if you win? Contrast that with if there is to be reports on work going on to build the most accurate rifles possible. For that, we probably need print, and all print offers. Which brings up the nasty question "Who's to pay?"

My personal belief, probably not shared, is if benchrest becomes just another form of competition, it will fade away. Other forms of competition seem more attractive.

But look at that guy with a tactical rifle over on the "Centerfire Benchrest" forum? Why is he posting here? Because he believe benchrest holds some accuracy information about reloading. He's not even sure what benchrest is, but he still equates "benchrest" with "accuracy."

Well, maybe. But if it is all past glory & no innovation, that won't last much longer.

Al Nyhus
11-24-2012, 09:26 AM
My personal belief, probably not shared, is if benchrest becomes just another form of competition, it will fade away. Other forms of competition seem more attractive.

But look at that guy with a tactical rifle over on the "Centerfire Benchrest" forum? Why is he posting here? Because he believe benchrest holds some accuracy information about reloading. He's not even sure what benchrest is, but he still equates "benchrest" with "accuracy."

Well, maybe. But if it is all past glory & no innovation, that won't last much longer.

Couldn't agree more, Charles. -Al

mwezell
11-24-2012, 10:14 AM
Am I reading this right? Do some here believe that the future of BR is contingent on a printed magazine? If so, the sport is ultimately doomed to fail as are most printed magazine publications, particularly those with smaller audiences such as ours. I enjoy reading a magazine related to our sport as much as anyone but realize that it's a way of the past and costs far more than online publications. I wonder how many people below the age of about 25 subscribe to printed magazines vs. online.

JerrySharrett
11-24-2012, 11:19 AM
he also said all centerfire BR guns would have tuners on them ..............ya see how that went.

Several of the top shooters are using tuners for centerfire. I saw several at the Super Shoot and the IBS Nats this year.
There were a few shooters using tuners at River Bend a couple of weeks ago.

Given enough time???

Charles E
11-24-2012, 12:31 PM
Am I reading this right? Do some here believe that the future of BR is contingent on a printed magazine? ...I wonder how many people below the age of about 25 subscribe to printed magazines vs. online.

Nope. You can remove sevral things from benchrest and it would continue. Suppose we said "no matches west of the Mississippi"? It would continue. Or the more draconian "Only a 6ppc will be allowed in CF group matches." I bet it would still keep on.

There is a critical mass, though. Go to far, and no one pays any attention to you. There are what, 4,000,000 NRA members? Last time I looked at membership in NBRSA it was around 1,500. Same for IBS. Let's pretend that they're all in the U.S. and there is no overlap -- 3,000 shooters committed to formal benchrest, either group, score, or long range.

Lessee, 3,000 is 0.075 percent of the total NRA membership. What does benchrest have to offer that other 99.925 percent of the shooting public? How do they even find out about you?

And y'all want to grow the sport? I imagine a magazine would be a financial loss, based on subscription and advertising revenues. How about chalking it's purpose up to promotion & advertising?

dmoran65
11-24-2012, 03:09 PM
Charles -


How about chalking it's purpose up to promotion & advertising?
How many subscribers were there to PS magazine? (both regular subscribers + IBS members)
How much $??,???.00 per year was the IBS paying PS?
Do you think that costs was an effective price tag to "promotion & advertising" for that amount of exposure?
How many people do think the IBS could have exposure to if they were to put forth that same $??,???.00 to "promotion & advertising"on the World-wide Web (Internet)?

IMO - comparing the NRA to Benchrest, and all it's status to legislation, gun rights, lobbied efforts, multiple shooting disciplines, etc.. is a very poor comparison and detriment to the facts, status, and numbers.
While I also am all for "promotion & advertising"!!!... the cost of doing so in magazine publications for good exposure will not even begin to come close to the amount exposure that it would with a yearly Internet campaign, at the same price tag.

The amount of IBS coverage in the PS magazine was far from what I would call "full coverage" or "good coverage", with very few sanctioned ranges having coverage/exposure. Also was not what I would consider quality ""promotion & advertising".
Think I remembered you posting a few times how you did not want PS sent to you when you renewing your IBS memberships (am I remembering currently or do I have you confused with someone else), which I respected and chalked up to figuring you also did not like IBS coverage in PS and may have been your reasoning for those posts.

IBS Member
Donovan Moran

Charles E
11-24-2012, 03:43 PM
Donovan,

I'm all ears. As with so many of my posts, I'm not saying "this is the answer." Rather, I'm trying to indicate that the success or failure of any one kind of thing, from Precision Shooting to the 6mm Dasher, is not the final answer. Anytime you rest on your laurels, you'd better be prepared to have the sheet pulled up over your head. Same with decamping from failures that were sound at the core.

I loved Precision Shooting in the early 1990s, when I was new to the sport, and (perhaps) the articles were different. Whether it was my newness or the different articles isn't really the point. I happen to think it was the articles, what if someone else doesn't?

A periodical is one way to reach an audience, and unlike the internet, is an artifact. & the PS of the 1990s was not printed on coated paper, nor was it 4 color. Once you start talking about manufacturing costs -- I know little about distribution costs -- materials matter a lot.

Lot's of possibilities, too. A quarterly costs less than a monthly. For example, Match results on the internet, big match reports published quarterly would another form. And that could be a joint IBS/NBRSA venture. Or even a quarterly on the internet, and an annual published.

As someone wise once said at a Association of American University Presses annual meeting, "We have too much information. We don't have enough facts." Publishers who just rent their imprint are doomed. Authors will wise up & cut out a meaningless middleman. Publishers who perform service, on the other hand, will be paid gladly.

* * *

Maybe we'd be better off paying Tony Boyer-- or better, the WBC team -- to attend Camp Perry & put on an exhibition.

Maybe we'd be better off developing a package for a Savington that cost $500 and would let anyone come close to BR accuracy, and aside from BR shooting, didn't hurt the rifle for varmint hunting. etc.

I do believe, with some evidence, that (1) if more people aren't exposed to benchrest, and (2) if those that are find it's "secrets" equaled or surpassed by other forms of rifles & competition, then benchrest will become just another trip down nostalgia lane. Or maybe that's a plus, how many black powder shooters are there?

David Apple
11-24-2012, 07:27 PM
he also said all centerfire BR guns would have tuners on them ..............ya see how that went.


The winners of this years SSOY used tuners.

dmoran65
11-24-2012, 08:16 PM
Charles -


In the 1990s, benchrest grew, substantially. It seems to be shrinking again.

then benchrest will become just another trip down nostalgia lane
Knowing your a long time active IBS Long Range competitor/member, how can you state these things when the growth to the IBS Long Range is on the rise tremendously. Look at the growth since "the 1990's":

1000 Virginia 1,000yd Benchrest Club
1000 Whitehorse /WV
1000 Harry Jones - Fairmont WV
1000 GRRC / Harris MN
1000 Vapor Trail / Spickard MO
1000 Midwest Benchrest/Yukon MO
1000 Show Me BR / Downing Mo
1000 NC 1000yd / Range 4 Camp Butner
1000 Hawks Ridge Gun Club, NC
1000 Cool Acres / Swainsboro GA
600 Bridgeville DE
600 Pascagoula MS
600 Piedmont GC/ NC
600 M.S.S.A./ Memphis TN
600 Big Piney / Summersville MO
600 Vapor Trail / Spickard MO
600 O.R.S.A. / Oak Ridge TN
600 GRRC / Harris MN
600 Grant Co. Elbow Lake MN
600 BR St Louis MO
600 Midwest Benchrest Yukon MO
600 Columbus, WI
600 Pueblo, CO
* In the making .... Sioux Falls, SD -600
** (I also hear tell of a couple more possibles)

If my math is correct, I believe that is +10-times as many as there was in the 1990's.
With substantial growth in the past 3 years.

Just saying...
Donovan

Terry Balding
11-24-2012, 08:45 PM
Donovan

Add Columbus, WI to your list. We just finished our 600 yard range.

Dick Grosbier
11-24-2012, 09:06 PM
...... But haven't seen any 2013 scheduled dates yet is why I put it as.... "In the making"


http://internationalbenchrest.com/schedule/2013TentLongRange.pdf

Chad Schmidt
12-05-2012, 10:47 PM
If the cost of the mag is the issue, buying and maintaining a web site must be free if the answer is to stop buying the magazine printing to spend it on a web site.
As for some of the internet comments access I do not think is the issue. Our federal overlords have been spending our taxes to subsidize access, heck they even sent me a letter offering to help.
Internet access is a great thing but sitting on the porch with a cold beverage and a good magazine is way better.
I paid for the IBS membership for the magazine, to hear what the founders and up and comers of our sport thought enough to write about. Since I still work I personally will not make the time to sort the hundreds of sites to find the folks that wrote articles are now engaged in the typical internet verbal "fencing" with a fellow shooter that does not share his opinion. I'd prefer the index page where I can read and refer to it without looking over the 1,896,987 items found 45 days later.
Just thought one more opinion could not hurt. I for one have notes and stuff hanging out of nearly all of them I have ever received. I for one will miss the magazine and the information I gleaned from it. Everyone have a blessed Christmas and may God bless you all.