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06-11-2012, 10:16 PM
Lets see if this works.......

06-11-2012, 10:39 PM
Ive been reading here for some time. I believe I had a registration problem and it might have been resolved without my knowing it. I could never post, well here we go!

Is my joy-stick rear rest legal for 1000 yard heavy gun?

06-12-2012, 10:31 AM
I was hoping one of you would take a shot at this. I read the rules, is there anything that is "unwritten" that would make the rear steer "joy-stick" unable to compete?

Thanks, Pipes

06-12-2012, 10:56 AM

Can't answer your questions but did you do the build....? Interesting concept on the rear bag steer, a co-ax..?


06-12-2012, 11:20 AM
caroby, co-ax it is........ from center @100 yards 10" L 10" R 5" U 5" D is the total range.

06-12-2012, 11:32 AM
Yes to your question caroby, the stock, barrel block and rests came from a pile of material I had in the middle of my shop floor.

Boyd Allen
06-12-2012, 11:34 AM
I looked over the IBS and NBRSA long range rules, and if the rear bag is at least 3" x 1.5 inches, is deformable, filled with the right stuff ("a dry finely divided nonmetallic substance such as, but not limited to, sand, gravel, or grain,"), is at least 1/2" thick everywhere that it touches the stock, and only makes side contact a maximum of 1/2" up from the bottom, it seems to me that you should be good to go for both.

Unwritten rules? If you run across anyone trying to enforce one, I think that that would make for an interesting discussion.

How does it shoot?

06-12-2012, 11:40 AM
Hi Boyd, I bring this up for the reason you mention. It was a topic recently. The "bag" thing. Im ok on the co-ax rear steer?

06-12-2012, 11:52 AM
How does it shoot? Well it defies all design logic Im told. Regardless, it shoots and tracks like a knife. The rests remain "undesturbed" during recoil and return to battery. I built it so the shooter could run the rifle "on the edge" of the bench as you would a light gun or any other benchrest class rifle. The rear rest houses less space than a typical rear sand bag and requires "no" leveling. Your right forearm runs the rifle like any other while you sit to the side of your bench.

Boyd Allen
06-12-2012, 12:18 PM
It looks legal to me, but I am not the one that would be making an official ruling. If you want to be sure, I would contact the appropriate sanctioning body or bodies.

06-12-2012, 12:33 PM
I hear ya!!! While we talk about my build, maybe the authorities will weigh in on the co-ax rear steer. Its not my intention to cause a title wave in the pool. Im not big money, so when and if I travel to a match I dont want to be disqualified for thinking out of the box.

Charles E
06-12-2012, 01:31 PM
Nothing wrong with a rear rest having the joystick. Current rear pedestals have windage & elevation knobs -- you've just replaced them with a lever. Many of us have thought of this, & refrained only because Farley felt the weight too much for his bearings.

Your only risk being the "first" (if you are) is that it will wear/break at a bad moment.

& BTW, if it tracks perfectly, you don't need to make any adjustment anyway ;-)

I'm not on the IBS board, but I'd defend your particular pedestal to the best of my abilities, just like I'd find an uncontrolable urge to shoot some skeet if you drove through my neighborhood with straight pipes...

Hard to tell about NBRSA, but I don't think they shoot 1K east of Tucson, Arizona. Likely they'd allow it -- would have in the old days.

Good luck with it,


06-12-2012, 02:40 PM
Thank you Charles,


06-12-2012, 03:16 PM
I have never considered any weak points in the design. When it comes time to park what is left of me beside my rifle, all my attention is on my target. If its loose or wobbly or it doesnt fit, its in the trash. Like I said, Im not big money. When I travel to a match it has to work. The joy stick speeds up the less than perfect conditions that I will track during a match. Shooting on the fly, or at the fly.

06-12-2012, 05:18 PM
I will keep the invitation open to the board members. The rule is "not written" on rear joy stick rests currently. I dont want the issue to become an "ISSUE" when a record is to be decided. Like the bag thing. Boy, wouldnt it be grand to hold a record.

I would like to talk about my build if any of you are interested. More than anything, its the tools and the building and the blood and on and on.........

06-13-2012, 05:09 PM
I will keep the invitation open to the board members. The rule is "not written" on rear joy stick rests currently. I dont want the issue to become an "ISSUE" when a record is to be decided. Like the bag thing. Boy, wouldnt it be grand to hold a record.

I would like to talk about my build if any of you are interested. More than anything, its the tools and the building and the blood and on and on.........

Board members have no more say than anybody else. If the current rules don't disallow it, go ahead and shoot it without further discussion - it's OK.

06-13-2012, 07:36 PM
Wilbur, it is the board members that "do" have the say that I wanted to approach with this. Those that sit on the committee, IBS. I should have been more pointed. I would rather settle the use of a "controversial" piece (?) of new equipment before a match, not during..


06-13-2012, 07:43 PM
That would suggest that the rules are being made as we go along and I'm sure that's not the case - almost. I do understand your position.

06-13-2012, 08:42 PM
Hi Wilbur,

I guess Im gonna slip that rule book in my back pocket and go shootin!!!!!!


06-13-2012, 10:07 PM
Good deal. I was fixin' to ask about your sense of adventure.

Based on Charles' evaluation of the rules and the precedent he mentioned I can't imagine anybody saying anything but "nice rest".

Charles E
06-13-2012, 10:32 PM
Bit of history. The Cass brothers, Steve & Jamie, built a couple 180 pound HGs in 6mm/06. They ran the 107 Sierras about 3600 fps. But with that 180 pound gun, it didn't move much in recoil. They'd fire it 5 times before pushing it back, then another 5 to finish the string.

Needles to say, they could shoot very fast.

The only potential rules problem was at that time, the rule on the rear rest made reference to "the pistol grip", ... and of course, there wasn't one. So they put a pistol grip somewhere in front of the action.

I had the same complaint with my sort-of-bull pup. So I put one 1911 (& not 1911-A1) pistol grip ahead of the bottom plate. Everybody was happy.

Believe that rule is now been rewritten, & the phrase "pistol grip" is no longer mentioned.

Point is, that's how we think in 1K benchrest.

* * *

Now, since Georgia's done for the year, come on up to Carolina & shoot with us. Next match 7 July.


If it shoots so good, you'll need 40 rounds for record, plus any sighters you require. And a light gun wouldn't hurt...

06-14-2012, 12:17 AM

Carolina, is that north of me? Since Wilbur thinks it to be an adventure, lets do this shootin thing!!!!!! Dont mess with the rules till I git there.. Do yall shoot retumbo up there? I havnt been off this stinkin sand-bar for 6 months. Thanks for the invite.

Charles E
06-14-2012, 12:33 AM
Just get on I-95 & start dodging potholes. There are directions on the NC 1000 Yard Benchrest internet site I gave you -- go to the home page & use the left-side menu.

Since Camp Butner is a military facility, they have been known to cancel our matches when there is a "pressing" need. Watch the 600/1000 Yard Forum for any cancellations -- we did have one last year. I'll post any late news, weather forecast, rude remarks, etc. there.

* * *

Retumbo? No, I use a primer-flattening amount of 4831 in both my .30 & .338.

06-14-2012, 02:06 PM
Wilbur, Charles and everyone,

Best Regards

06-14-2012, 11:31 PM
Well I've tried to get this question answered 3 times over the course of 8-9yrs.... I once got disallowed for having a handle on my rear rest NBRSA 600yd



06-14-2012, 11:35 PM
BTW the other posts got all nasty with folks commenting on "bending the rules" and "forcing" etc....

Don'y get'cher hopes up just in case you get a certain match director. (Hadda' guy out here tried to hang a little plastic monkey on his gun, like you would your rearview mirror??? NONONO!!! MAJOR DQ!!)

I've got holes in one of my guns specifically for the liddle Marine Corp flags, tried to fly them while my kid was in Afghanistan.... NOPE!

Good Luck


Charles E
06-15-2012, 08:18 AM
Good Grief, I didn't realize the NBRSA long range program was that gefuched. Maybe Lynn was right about more than we gave him credit for.

Now I know the "match director" at Carolina, Scott Fletcher. He'd probably fly a flag on his rifle too, if he though of it. And he's the guy that came up with the offset stock for .30s & up.

Come to that, I know the match director at Georgia. He's cool, except we have a personal disagreement, which is personal & I imagine in no way removes the respect for each other (hey, "we're benchrest shooters").

So as long as straight pipes uses a muffler in public & stays in the current IBS southern ranges, he's good to go. I'd inquire if you spend the fuel to go to Missouri, but I can't imagine they're not IBS Law Abiding (As few rules as possible, by the book, evenly applied, and don't try to make something out of nothin').

Boyd Allen
06-15-2012, 11:52 AM
It sounds like your local match director is making up rules that are not in the book. If he objects to something that you do not think is not covered in the book, I would ask him to show what rule he was basing his decision on, and if you disagreed with the decision, submit your protest in writing, while still at the match. Beyond that I would send a copy to your regional director, and request that the situation be discussed at the next BOD meeting. It seems to me that if the things that you mentioned are not functional parts of the stock, and the rifle meet all of the rules, that the rulings that you mention are strong evidence of a serious lack of a sense of humor, at the minimum.
Personally, I might take it as a challenge and consider installing some of these, http://www.ledglobalsupply.com/ribbon-flex-led-lighting/?gclid=COPs37LL0LACFQF_hwodlX1nXQ
(http://www.ledglobalsupply.com/ribbon-flex-led-lighting/?gclid=COPs37LL0LACFQF_hwodlX1nXQtotally)tucked in so that the rifle met all of the width and weight rules, with an on board power supply that also powered a miniature audio system that would play this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE



Charles E
06-15-2012, 12:39 PM
Getting serious, in the early days, the IBS rules followed the Pennsylvania rules of that time (1995). Pennsylvania did not have light gun rules, so IBS came up with their own (The Pennsylvania LG rules were just a bit behind IBS, and at that time differed -- though this statement may be disputed, & doesn't really matter except for historical purposes).

NBRSA copied the 1995 era IBS rules, except allowing a rear pedestal (mechanical rest) for Light Gun as well as Heavy Gun. There have been a few changes since then -- As I remember for equipment, mainly to allow muzzle brakes on heavy guns. There have been some changes as to how points are awarded in IBS for both SOTY and the Long Range marksman program, and IBS now does provide for a multiple-target agg for a single match, but to the best of my knowledge, no other equipment rule changes. NBRSA was always different for points, as they always shot multiple target aggs.

Point is: There are NO stock rules in long range. No means no. No taper. No forearm width. Guiding rails are OK. etc. In Light Gun, the rifle must weigh 17 pounds or under, and must be .40 caliber or under. For Heavy Gun, drop the weight restriction. Finis.

Given what's been reported coming out of California, and with the teaser of those records, we need to hold some NBRSA matches here on the east coast.

(Aside: Tooley can break his own record -- he has, many times in IBS matches, as have many of us. Reagan Green's will be tough, as will Ken Schraders. The rest -- quite available.)

I second Boyd's notion that such whimsical rulings should be both challenged and reported, or the NBRSA long-range program will be in danger of dying.

Charles Ellertson

* * *

As far as straight pipes rear rest is concerned, it is a mechanical rest, and anything allowed on the mechanical front should be allowed on a mechanical rear. We've used joy sticks on LG front rests for years now.

06-15-2012, 03:13 PM
Leave it to the new guy to stir up the "muck" Im down here in "Smokey Yunick" country. He bent every rule there was in NASCAR. This can all be good fun, or not.

Print up a "POCKET RULE BOOK" and smack it down when needed, or?

Charles E
06-15-2012, 08:10 PM
Leave it to the new guy to stir up the "muck"

Now don't go getting uppity until you win a bunch. Putting a joy stick on the rear pedestal ain't that much.

Wish I could find a picture of Charles Bailey's "Blue Gun" (anyone have one?), but here's a link to Joel Pendergraft's old rifle, built on what Charles started.


ol' CB's Blue Gun did cause the Pennsylvania club to re-write their rules, for a while. It's all good now, back to .40 & under, and nothing else.

I'd show you my HG, but I don't have a digital camera yet. Take Joel's & throw away the rear stock -- like a bull pup. I do use a single pedestal front rest, though. Actually, when Joel quit I bought his rifle, so I guess they're both mine now. Joel's is slated to get a new barrel with a middlin' sized .338 chambering.

06-15-2012, 10:24 PM
How about a joy-stick in front and a joy-stick in back? I think I have the bearings worked out to handle the weight........ If you park that thing on the other side of the camp fire in the "right light" it will come to me by sunrise.

06-16-2012, 12:54 PM
Thanks for keeping me in line. I can play pretty hard at times, ask anyone. Hope to shoot with the infamous Nc1000yard club soon.

Charles E
06-16-2012, 06:40 PM

You need a very good barrel & bullets and good reloading skills, and the wins will pile up -- with a bit of luck. Long range shooters need a different kind of luck than the point-blank brethren.

Once you're about half way to the bronze level (say about 15 points), we'll begin to take you seriously, even if we should have front the start.

And if you think it through, the easiest way to do that is through Light Gun. More people shoot that, so more points are available. Five shots, so a good barrel lasts more matches. Alvin Johnson (99+ points just now) is still using the LG barrel he put on in 1995.

So, you'd figure as smart as I'm suppose to be, coming up with the above analysis, I'd be a LG specialist, right? Nope. I love the heavies. I'm also mired back around 35 points, so you see I pay for my foibles.

But if winning is your goal, get about 10-20 barrels for your LG. Grade them. Save the best for the Nationals, Worst couple are for fireforming, or to sell off. Personally, I don't think it matters if you get 20 Shilens, Kreigers, Bartlines, Pac-Nors, whatever. The incidence of "great barrel" seems about the same. Others will feel differently about this brand notion, but I doubt anyone would disagree about the need to keep getting barrels until you have a couple very good ones. Don't waste the best showing off at regular matches.

I know it costs. 20 barrels, plus chambering if you don't do your own work, is many thousands of dollars. So you do what you can, when you can, the goal's still there.

Don't fall into our out of love with a component. Test them. I've had barrels that liked a primer *I* didn't like. Well, grimace & hold your nose if you have to, but give that barrel what it likes. Here's another one. Not all barrels like all bullets. You may like, say, Berger 210s. Unimportant. What does the barrel like? Get a VLD design by all means, and a tangent ogive type (Sierra, BIBs), and maybe something in between what you've first chosen, -- a hybrid,a very-high number tangent or low-number secant.

Don't fall in love with a powder, either. You seem to like Retumbo. It makes bullets go fast. But as we've said before on this forum, there are no trophies for "highest speed down range." Just now, my .338, which has a little more capacity that a stock .338 Lapua, likes H4831. I lose about 300 fps that way, but oh, those scores -- and I'll bet small groups, when I learn to shoot it better.

* * *

So. I just saved you what it took me 10 years to learn. Not very smart, am I. You should be able to learn this in about 10 days.

06-16-2012, 11:26 PM
Well Charles, guess I should have stopped in here sooner. I thought you were going to teach me a lesson sooner or later. Playing "dumb" is kinda like sandbagging, ya just learn quicker. The only reason I brought up retumbo is I thought it was the closest powder ya might use in them civil war cannons up there. LOL!!!!!!!! Im not new to benchrest, just IBS. Been shooting for 40 years or so. Benchrest for about 20 years. Ya see, Ive been burning up my stuff pretty much for nothing. (local fun matches) Now I want to burn stuff up in formal, organized compitition like I read about here. Good barrels and good bullets is a big part, yes sir. Ya see, thats why I build most of what I can my self. It the way I want it to work. Due to time, I sold my lathe and tooling for barrel work, Im getting it back. That was about 25 years ago, now I have all kinds of time. Im a click away from 60.

Im not here showing off or bragging, you should expect to see me around abit if Im able. Its about the tools, the craft and the shooters....... Will I learn, Im sure.

06-19-2012, 10:52 AM
Charles E,

Im sitting here in a pile of brass, neck turning. Let me take a moment and give you a shot before my hands cramp up. Your invitation still good or am I doomed to shooting just in the southeast?

Charles E
06-20-2012, 09:05 PM
SP, you need to make this post on the long range forum. Like I said, I cannot imagine that your rear rest is illegal in the IBS.

From the list of names of people who have this thread, some of the big guns at Pennsylvania have read at least some posts & not replied. Probably because it is OK, but safest to hear from them a little more directly. The World Open is a match you will want to make at least once in your life -- maybe every year, if you're retired.

The general question is "Is a joystock rear rest legal?" All I can do is repeat, it would be legal on a front rest, how could it not be legal on a rear, wherever pedestal rears are allowed?

None of this addresses the other bag issues, the 1/2 inch of sand clearance, size of bag, etc. We can't see that from the picture. But all you've done conceptually is replace a windage top w/ a joystick top; a number of people have thought on that one. If you've got bearing that will take the weight & stay precise, you may have a product you can sell.

So make the post.

Secondly, on the IBS site,


you'll find a list of ranges with a contact person. If you're worried, call them & explain what you've done before driving 500 miles.

Here is a link to the Pennsylvania club. I don't know who can make a ruling for you, ask. & BTW, if it really worries you, throw in another rear rest -- you could always use that. You ain't going to win by a rear rest alone.


As I said, to my knowledge, there are no NBRSA 1000 yard clubs east of Tucson, Arizona.

06-20-2012, 11:47 PM
I quit worrying 30 years ago. LOL The bag thing dont worry me either. I will just fluff them up abit at the right time. I keep digital calipers in my back pocket just for measuring bags.

Charles E
06-21-2012, 06:53 AM
I quit worrying 30 years ago. LOL The bag thing dont worry me either.
So what are all these posts about? Never mind, I'm just won't read yours any more.