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View Full Version : PSC Pearland, Texas Match Results and discussion on Production Class



BobZ
04-06-2012, 09:57 PM
Pearland Shooting Club Pearland, Texas Production Class Results

Joe Isaacks Outdoor Record Holder 706-10X
Daystate Harrier 223-3X 212-1X 227-0X 662-4X
219-1X 233-3X 226-1X 678-5X
228-0X 234-4X 226-7X 688-11X
237-3X 237-4X 232-3x 706-10X
BEST 9 TARGETS 2,080-25X

Bob Zimmerman
Hammerli Pnuema 234-3X 225-3X 223-0X 682-6X
229-4X 231-1X 228-2X 688-7X
234-0X 232-5X 231-4X 697-9X
229-7X 226-0X 237-3X 691-10X
BEST 9 TARGETS 2,085- 29X


Larry Engle
Hammerli 240-3X 231-1X 233-1X 704-3X

Jim
Marauder 233-0X 233-5X 232-4X 698-9X

A Modest Proposal.....

For purpose of discussion by those who have or will definitely compete in this class and or Match Directors that will promote and hold Production class matches. The important input should come from participants.

I have asked Chis (Steven) to consider removal of our scores from the Score Line results......... No one at out club has shown up to shoot with a kit that meets the rules. We considered them guidelines until we did some recruiting.

I have listed below the slight differences, none of which will produce any real advantage. The result of our recruiting efforts will later include two or more who will, but have not yet, fired for record in this class.

It is our opinion that few if any shooters owning an air rifle, rim fire rifle, or high cal. rifle is shooting from a rear bag raised by a piece of material to the required height as a front rest. This is a new innovation that most have yet discovered. A few are using sand bags etc. The majority own some sort of Shooting Rest Purchased at retail from 29.95 to a couple of hundred dollars. Some are adjustable an some are not. NONE REQUIRE THE NEW SHOOTER TO SPEND MORE MONEY IN ORDER TO SHOOT THIS CLASS if they already own one.

The only value of the adjustments on a rest is for those using a shooting style where all adjustments vertical and lateral are made with knobs. The shooter often never touches the rifle and after alignment simply takes his eye off of the scope
and waits for a condition and touches a very light trigger. If the adjustments on the rest are not allowed they become nothing more than an object between the bag and the bench they they are as useless as a piece of wood.
Most new shooters will bring a rifle they own, set up with a scope and rings. And use something between the bag and the bench. The only requirement if it is a PCP, is that it is not regulated. Some rifles have a barrel band that prevents as scope from being properly mounted.

This information is furnished because we feel that the current rules will turn away more shooters than will join us. I asked a couple of our guys if they would give up a cheap rest that they own and spend money on another bag and some carpenter work to get it to the proper height. They will not! Regardless of the outcome we will shoot and turn no shooter away who in our eyes has no significant advantage.

Please let Chris know if our scores should be counted. Or if we should just run our local match.

Score Line rules

.177, .20 and .22 calibers are allowed.
The rifle must be completely unmodified.
Only adjustments listed in the owners manual are allowed (plus adding a scope).
Any power level is allowed.
Any weight rifle is allowed.
MSRP for air rifle, scope rings and scope not to exceed $700.00USD.
All power plants are allowed, springer, SSP, MSP, CO2 and PCP.
No mechanical front rest or one piece rest.
Shooting will be off bags only.
International scoring rules will apply.
Target distance will be 25 meters.

PSC Modified Rules

.177, .20 and .22 calibers are allowed.
The rifle must have no Internal Modifications
Only adjustments listed in the owners manual are allowed (plus adding a scope). Front and rear metalic sights may be removed,
Barrel band or obstructions that prevent scope mounting can be removed.
Any power level is allowed.
Any weight rifle is allowed.
MSRP for air rifle, scope rings and scope not to exceed $700.00 USD. Match Director my allow slightly higher amount if no significant advantage is the result.
All power plants are allowed, springer, SSP, MSP, CO2 and PCP. All PCP Rifles must NOT have a regulator.
We see no need to restrict what is between the bags where forearm of the rifle rest and the bench. A piece of wood a piece of other material necessary to raise the level of their rifle or
Any rest or object may be used between the bags and the bench (as long as no adjustments to this support are made during the match).
Adjustment as to vertical and lateral adjustments may only be made using the rear bag.
International scoring rules will apply.
Target distance will be 25 meters.

Bob Z ShootN' Air rifle bench rest competition since early 90's.

Renegade
04-08-2012, 04:48 PM
Bob (and Steve),
If your rules will encourage two more shooters to join in, I say let them shoot and let your scores stand. We need to grow this organization and the sport, not chase people away!
Todd

BobZ
04-08-2012, 07:48 PM
Thanks Todd,

I am not just trying to have my way. I have had all of our shooters come to shoot by invitation and none could shoot without change to their equipment or the purchase of additional equipment. I have not heard from the indoor guys yet. I know that at least one was attracted to the game for the low entry cost. I think that it was easy for him to fit the rules as he purchased specifically for this class and rules.

All things will work out in time and since the number of shooters are so few, I am pretty sure all would agree to do what works and get really serious on rules down the road.

Bob

19Turkeys
04-09-2012, 11:39 AM
I reckon I'll add my 2 cents since I shoot in this class, but first I would like to give a little personal background. Most of this will be of repeat of what I have posted before, but I think it bears repeating to put the rest of the post in perspective. I am new to air rifles & benchrest shooting. Coach Ron suckered me into it as it was low cost. But, I am not new to shooting competition. I have shot IHMSA handgun silhouette since 1984 and participate in all its disciplines including air pistol silhouette. I have also been instrumental in writing the rules for IHMSA's air pistol competition and have make suggested rule changes in IHMSA over the years that have been approved. Thus, I have some experience in rule making.

That said, I believe the rules of any competition should have a number one criteria, that being that the competition presents a level playing field for all competitors. Focusing on air rifle benchrest Production class specifically, criteria number two should be to allow a competitor to enter the sport at minimal out of pocket expense. Bob Z you are absolutely correct that I entered this discipline with zero equipment. Thus, the least expensive way for me to go was bags. Now, how important are bags when compared to a mechanical rest? As I understand it a fellow named Dan Brown continues to kick serious butt with bags against mechanical rests. :) You are suggesting the use of mechanical rests but not allowing rifle movement by them. What does that allow? It allows a shooter that is shooting in LV, HV or Open to buy a Production rifle and shoot the class. We have involved a current shooter more deeply into the sport at a reduced cost by not requiring him/her to buy bags. Thus, we have fulfilled criteria number one.

What is the key of Production? As I see it, it is allowing shooters to bring "entry level" rifles to competition and give it a shot (pun intended). All of Bob Z's suggested modified rules allow equipment that is basically unmodified except for those allowed by the owner's manual and a total cost of $700. There is absolutely no change here to the current rules save for the barrel band addition which I do not see as a big deal. (Again, neophyte here so those with more experience with air rifles please comment.)

Production class is new. Thus, the rules should be somewhat fluid and modifications allowed as we see new shooters and their equipment. However, there is one thing that we should not do and that it to make rule changes that accommodate only one shooter. I have seen some proposed modifications to IHSMA rules that were obviously suggested to benefit only one or two shooters at the detriment to others. We should be very vigilant that rule changes enhance the sport, allow easy entry and do not do harm to those who entered under slightly different rules.

OK, darned long post. What is the bottom line here? As a Production class shooter, I have no issue with the reasonable suggested changes that Bob Z and the PSC club have made.

Yours for the sport,

Steve W.

PS: Bob, IHMSA competition used to be shot there. Is it now defunct?

19Turkeys
04-09-2012, 05:38 PM
I went back & reread Bob Z's suggested modifications. I would not support match director discretion in the $700 price cap. Where does that stop? $10, $15, $100? The price should remain the price. That said, no one should be turned away. If someone shows up with a rifle that does not conform and does no damage to targets/range, let them shoot. Include them in the match write up posted here. Just do not submit the scores to Scoreline. As an example as a match director for our IHMSA matches, I frequently have rifle shooters at our handgun match. We do not want to turn people away!

Again, addressing the barrel band issue, on the Marauder it does not impose any scope mounting issue. I am not sure if it would/does on other rifles being a neophyte. Also, I do not know if it is a competitive advantage or disadvantage; so, I did not address it and do not here. It is one of those things that is not in the owner's manual; so, would not be strict adherence with the current rule. I would like to hear others thoughts on that.

Yours for growing the sport,

Steve W.
PS: Outdoors for the first time this Wednesday. Now, that should be an experience! :) & thanks to Coach Ron for a very special target stand.

BobZ
04-09-2012, 11:29 PM
Steve,
Couple of good post. I have tried in detail to explain the why and why not of a production class that will grow. You are unique as a new comer to air guns. You purchased a set up in order to meet the rules. There are so few competitors out there that will come to a new game and start from zero in order to play. You said in one of the post that the rules should be fluid. I believe that 9 of ten shooters coming to this class will already own an non regulated out of the box air rifle. They have purchased not knowing the rules. When a shooter comes to shoot he brings with him a rig that has 99% chance ,that it will not meet the letter of the current rules. There are thousands of air gunners that fit this description. They came from other games and purchased a basic out of the box rifle, went to the garage and removed a scope and some rings and went to the range and set up on the retail rest that they already owned and started plinking for group size. And one way or another we find them. Another large group will come because they enjoy competition with rim fire and the cost of Eley 10X is out of the question any more. These folks will already own a scope and rings and a rest will not buy more stuff to shoot.

I have spoken with Chis and that we are in favor of using the rules at a minimum as guidelines. What he does will determine what you do and what my club does with its 6 or so competitors. As you say cost is important and no one that has shown up to shoot with us, will spend any more money to do or undo what they already own.

The whole reason I brought all of this up is to avoid a surprise at the end of this year when some one cry's out you do not fit the rules and you should be dis-qualified. Our shoulder to shoulder matches will always take priority over a postal match.

At the end of all of this you will make a choice as we will. Some will, in a year from now, agree that the scope, the rest, and the mounts do not have much effect on the scores. It is simply an out of the box non-regulated rifle, that defines the class when in the hands of a shooter that can read the wind.

I will wait for a ruling from the man in charge. Debate between us is what I feared, better now than later. I'm done. It is easier for me to pull one of three 2500.00 to 3600.00 rigs out of the box and let someone else try to build the game.

Bob

cris
04-10-2012, 07:06 AM
Bob and Steve, here we are again.

First, the USA Production class is a trial for 2012 in order to determine if this class will bring shooters to our sport. It was intended to be an entry level class and possibly a place where shooters could be comfortable with less equipment requirements.

By attempting to make rules simple and clearly defined, we hoped that match directors would have an easier time.

When we speak about "somewhat fluid" rules and "guidelines", this is where we end up. If someone says that a barrel band MUST be removed to mount a scope, is that okay? If someone says that they missed out on the sale and his rig cost $725.00, is that okay? If someone has a fancy front rest from their rimfire days and promises not to touch the adjustment knobs while shooting, is that okay?

There is no proof that any of the above exceptions provides an advantage but there will always be that perception, and perception is reality. With that said, now the playing field is no longer level. This topic was started due to concerns about who might win, and how, within the USA Scoreline.

The real issue is, do we want a class that brings in more shooters or do we want a class that provides that level playing field?

My decision is consistent with the mission statement of United States Air Rifle Benchrest. We do not want to turn away any shooter and match directors should have the latitude to make decisions regarding local issues. For the 2012 trial period of USA Production class, match directors should encourage new shooters with this class and have the authority to make modifications to the rules that are believed to be insignificant and are in the best interests of the shooters.

Make no mistake, rules are important. If the USA Production class is to continue, we will need rules that are clear and simply defined and do NOT need a match director to make a ruling.

19Turkeys
04-10-2012, 10:12 AM
Steve,

For the record, I have absolutely no issue with the rules as written. As I said earlier, if a shooter has non conforming equipment I would allow them to shoot but not submit the scores to Scoreline but would recognize them in the report. I have seen that strategy bring in new shooters that would then acquire equipment that conforms to the game. We should welcome everyone to the firing line.

Steve W.

cris
04-10-2012, 10:49 AM
Steve,

This was not a decision anyone would want to make but for now, this is what we have. We will put all USA Production class scores on the USA Scoreline during 2012.

Hopefully, you and other shooters in this class will help us put together simple and clearly defined rules that everyone can live with when the final Scoreline results are posted. I encourage you and Bob Zimmerman to talk and better understand each other's position.

Thank you again for giving our sport a try and being so involved in promoting it's success.

Wayne Burns
04-10-2012, 11:20 AM
Great discussion guys..

As I posted earlier in this conversation, I feel the limits are too constricting to get our goal accomplished.... but, as we move through this trial year, we'll learn what will work.

Again, just look at the type of rigs that showed up at the well attended (over 40 shooters, many new to the BR sport), AZ state bench rest match.. at most 10% of those rigs would fit into our current "Production Class". Most are out of the box hunting rigs that cost way more than our limit... leaving that group out doesn't make any sense... but I can also understand a lost cost entry level class too. Maybe add the "sporter" class (same idea as Production, but with no price limit)..that seems to be developing out west here. But too many classes doesn't work until we get enough folks playing.

Steve Ware's proposal to "let em all shoot", but note the rigs used, and not include their scores on the "Scoreline", sort of works for most folks, but a few might feel left out.. and drop out, instead of buying stuff to conform to the rules. IF we play down the "Scoreline" to the new shooters, until they really get hooked on the fun. Then maybe we have enough time to gain some balance to the resistance of buying more stuff.

LD's point that some of these "sporter" class rigs can shoot some pretty decent scores in the HV and Open classes, is valid to me, and we need to keep these people excited while they gain the skills to compete in our existing classes, even though it's a long shot that their "out of the box" rig will win against the customized rigs. But for some of those folks, the idea of winning with an "out of the box" rig against the custom rigs, is VERY exciting and worth the effort:-).. we need to play up that idea for this group of new comers:-)

Wacky Wayne

cris
04-10-2012, 11:43 AM
Wayne,

As I understand the issue from Bob, he had shooters with an existing mechanical front rest and they did not want to spend the money on a front bag set up that would emulate Dan Brown's arrangement.

Bob's point was that simply using a mechanical front rest without the aid of the adjustment knobs while shooting was NOT an advantage over a front bag. At best, it was an intimidation factor.

The price limit and the removal of a barrel band was more of fine tuning of the rules down the road.

A class without a price limit while incorporating the rest of the USA Production class guidelines is something we can consider but too many classes fragments the entire sport.

RIng
04-10-2012, 11:57 AM
Hi I think that all the high end sporting and hunting rifles fit nicely into the open class and that is were they belong .

GordonDawson
04-10-2012, 01:26 PM
Bob (and Steve),
If your rules will encourage two more shooters to join in, I say let them shoot and let your scores stand. We need to grow this organization and the sport, not chase people away!
Todd

+1

therealld
04-10-2012, 03:56 PM
Bob,

Back in the day when Airgun BR was VERY new ... I shot my HW77, QB77, and Whiscombe using a small foam-filled pillow. This front "rest" worked great! For the rear, I used my fist under the buttstock. There really is no need to allow folks to use fancy machine rests in sporter class. I think a small wooden box, or even a couple bricks can be used to raise the sandbag high enough for front rest use, and the rear can be hand held or a large sand filled sock can work too.

I prefer the foam pillow to the sandbag for springers, but for non-recoiling types, the "sand-sock" really works pretty decent.