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View Full Version : Choice between a SAKO or a Cooper



ehkempf
02-03-2012, 10:14 AM
I am looking to buy a varmint rifle in .22 PPC. I have a choice between a SAKO single shot heavy barrel (Vixen I believe), serial #AXXX or a Cooper Model 21 single shot. Both are close to each other in price. I know how accurate the SAKO is, I use to own the same rifle in 6PPC USA, but stupid me sold it. I donít know about the Cooper. If you had a choice which one would you buy?

Thanks,
Ed

Dans40X
02-03-2012, 11:29 AM
Without a second of hesitation my choice would be the SAKO.

If the Cooper was NIB & half the price,I'd opt for the SAKO.

Hunter
02-03-2012, 11:57 AM
Before I'd buy a Cooper I'd contemplate Mr. Cooper's support of BO.

Hal
02-03-2012, 12:49 PM
Hunter

Mr. Cooper is no longer with the Cooper Rifle Co. for that very reason.

Ed go for the Sako.

Hal

Hunter
02-03-2012, 03:15 PM
Hunter

Mr. Cooper is no longer with the Cooper Rifle Co. for that very reason.

Does he get a payout based on current sales? Does he own stock in Cooper?

ReedG
02-03-2012, 03:49 PM
I'm too numb to know what "BO" is as I'm sure it doesn't mean "body odor" ... but I LOVE my Cooper and would take it to a Sako any day. How in the world do we know what the politics or social views of the people who make Sako's are? Buy the gun you want, but base it on the gun not some political statement. I can tell you first hand that Cooper is an excellent company to deal with, makes an excellent product, and few corporate rifles will shoot with them.

alinwa
02-04-2012, 03:13 AM
Sako.

Coopers are beautiful, I still have one I love to look at. It sets front and center in my gun vault. I haven't fired it in years.

But you said 'shoot,' if you have a line on an old A1 Sako just buy it.

opinionby

al

rottie290
02-04-2012, 07:45 AM
Several years ago I had one of each, both in 6ppc. The cooper did shoot a bitt better.


Joe T

zimmden
02-12-2012, 09:39 AM
I shoot a Sako 6PPC, a Cooper 22-250 and a Cooper MIV. I've won the last 4 events entered in Factory Benchrest with the Sako. The Coopers both shoot sub 1/2 MOA with several 1/4 MOA groups. IMHO these companies produce the most accurate "out of the box" rifles available. Politics aside, the American company is as good as it gets. Bob

drover
02-12-2012, 10:49 PM
I owned one of the Sako benchrest in 6PPC and it was a fine shooter for a factory rifle. I also owned a Sako sporter in 22PPC it shot well but was much more finicky than the single shot 6PPC, I ended up selling the 22PPC because I just got tired of it inconsistencies, in retrospect after finding out that the 22PPC sporter/repeater is considered to be fairly rare I should have just put it in the back of the safe.

I own some Coopers and to for me they have been the most consistently accurate "out of the box" rifles I have owned. Mine have performed, as zimmden noted, shooting sub 1/2 MOA with the majority of the groups in the 1/4 MOA range.

I could be happy with either the Sako or Cooper but prefer the Coopers for their stock styling, the good accuracy results I have had with them, and the fact they are American made product.

drover

obx22
02-13-2012, 12:56 PM
Sounds like accuracy is comparable, wonder which has the better trigger?
I've owned a Forester Varminter in .243, several Finnfires and a Cooper 36 MFW, I'd hate to have to choose between 'em.

alinwa
02-13-2012, 01:23 PM
Triggers suck on both of them. Sako sucks less IMO

al

zimmden
02-13-2012, 07:23 PM
Factory rifles that can shoot 1/4 MOA groups don't have triggers that "suck". They have safe, reliable adjustable triggers that work well IMHO. These are not after market benchrest triggers.

ReedG
02-13-2012, 07:41 PM
The trigger on my Cooper Model 22 is excellent. I have it adjusted to 6-oz., it breaks clean and no overtravel. Best factory trigger I've ever seen. I love the older Sako's, but Cooper's have a different stock design and are much better to me.

alinwa
02-13-2012, 07:57 PM
The angle is wrong on the Coopers, they're not perpendicular to the bore and they're not safe below about 1.5lb with the overtravel set to not steer the rifle.

The Sako sports a European style Two-Stage trigger that feels like a trampoline.

In short, they suck.


BTW it's perty easy to shoot 1/4moa with a 3lb trigger......



if it doesn't suck.





opinionsby









al

drover
02-13-2012, 11:35 PM
The angle is wrong on the Coopers, they're not perpendicular to the bore and they're not safe below about 1.5lb with the overtravel set to not steer the rifle.


BTW it's perty easy to shoot 1/4moa with a 3lb trigger......



You have lost me, it sounds like your respone is slanted more to benchrest triggers rather than hunting rifle triggers. Would you please clarify your comment about the angle being wrong on Coopers? What angle? If you are speaking of the trigger sear and firing pin sear they are 90 degree angles, not an override trigger like the Remington, is that what you are referring to? If so what is wrong with a 90 degree angle?

I am really confused about not being "perpendicular to the bore", what is not perpendicular to the bore and why is it a problem?

As far as safety, I run most of mine at 1.5#'s with no issues at all, they do not slam fire, they are extremely consistent. My 6PPC Cooper is set at a10 ounces and it performs properly with no issues.

I also need some clarification on your comment about the overtravel set to not steer the rifle, are you referring to benchrest triggers rather than hunting triggers.


Neither the Cooper or Sako have benchrest triggers but IMO they are a great, easily adjustable, very consistent trigger and since this is the Hunting Rifle forum I assume that we are speaking in the context of a hunting rifle trigger, not a bench rest trigger.

Perhaps my reading comprehension is off tonight but I am totally confused about the points you are trying to make in your reply, or was your response in jest?

drover

p.s. - "BTW it's perty easy to shoot 1/4moa with a 3lb trigger......" - you are kidding, right? We both know that it is difficult to shoot consistent 1/4" groups even with a benchrest rifle.

alinwa
02-15-2012, 03:28 AM
You have lost me, it sounds like your respone is slanted more to benchrest triggers rather than hunting rifle triggers. Would you please clarify your comment about the angle being wrong on Coopers? What angle? If you are speaking of the trigger sear and firing pin sear they are 90 degree angles, not an override trigger like the Remington, is that what you are referring to? If so what is wrong with a 90 degree angle?

I am really confused about not being "perpendicular to the bore", what is not perpendicular to the bore and why is it a problem?

I feel strongly that a trigger should be pulled straight back. My Cooper trigger is biased forward at the bottom, it hangs such that it doesn't pull straight back but exerts more pressure on the bottom of the trigger finger. It doesn't "get out of the way" well. Which brings us to,


As far as safety, I run most of mine at 1.5#'s with no issues at all, they do not slam fire, they are extremely consistent. My 6PPC Cooper is set at a10 ounces and it performs properly with no issues.

I also need some clarification on your comment about the overtravel set to not steer the rifle, are you referring to benchrest triggers rather than hunting triggers.


"getting out of the way." I set my triggers with some slack at the back, free overtravel. I know, I know.... I went to the Leonard Brownell Schoole Of Gunsmithing where a good trigger "is like breaking an icicle, or a thin glass rod except that you don't feel it move." I did this for a long time, until I learned about steering the rifle. I learned that the bullet is in the barrel for at least a tenth of an inch of rearward recoil travel.... that's an eternity! You can drive the rifle all over the place in a tenth inch. And I don't differentiate between hunting and target, 2 ounces or two pounds.... a good trigger is a good trigger.


Neither the Cooper or Sako have benchrest triggers but IMO they are a great, easily adjustable, very consistent trigger and since this is the Hunting Rifle forum I assume that we are speaking in the context of a hunting rifle trigger, not a bench rest trigger.

OK, I prefer a number of triggers to them, my opinion :)



Perhaps my reading comprehension is off tonight but I am totally confused about the points you are trying to make in your reply, or was your response in jest?

drover

p.s. - "BTW it's perty easy to shoot 1/4moa with a 3lb trigger......" - you are kidding, right? We both know that it is difficult to shoot consistent 1/4" groups even with a benchrest rifle.


Well, no, I'm not kidding at all. It's not at all hard to shoot consistent quarter inch groups with a BR rifle. In fact I build and sell hunting rifles that will agg 1/4 inch....it's hard to shoot 1/4 inch out on the range, in competition, through the day but it's not at all hard to shoot small in controlled conditions. In fact I fully expect my rifles to shoot dots when the range permits, so that when the conditions are 'real' I can get honest feedback from the gun. I expected my Cooper to shoot 1/2" groups which it can do but it's hard to shoot, the trigger makes it harder. I expected less from the Sako but got more, even with the weird trigger. I expect ANYONE to shoot under 1/4" groups with any of a dozen of my not-factory rifles if I stand behind them and tell them when to shoot, and have done just that with many people.

al

Hunter
02-15-2012, 08:49 AM
I did this for a long time, until I learned about steering the rifle....

It's not at all hard to shoot consistent quarter inch groups with a BR rifle....[I]t's not at all hard to shoot small in controlled conditions. In fact I fully expect my rifles to shoot dots when the range permits....I expect ANYONE to shoot under 1/4" groups with any of a dozen of my not-factory rifles if I stand behind them and tell them when to shoot, and have done just that with many people.

Can you elaborate on the specifics of "steering the rifle"?

I've seen a lot of BR aggs that exceed 1/4" -- can you explain what you mean by "[i]t's not at all hard to shoot consistent quarter inch groups with a BR rifle"?

Can you explain what you mean by "controlled conditions" and ""when the range permits"?

When you "expect ANYONE to shoot 1/4" groups with [your] not-factory rifles," are you talking three- or five-shot groups? Also, what magic do you "work" that results in such outstanding shooting?

alinwa
02-15-2012, 01:16 PM
Can you elaborate on the specifics of "steering the rifle"?

I've seen a lot of BR aggs that exceed 1/4" -- can you explain what you mean by "[i]t's not at all hard to shoot consistent quarter inch groups with a BR rifle"?

Can you explain what you mean by "controlled conditions" and ""when the range permits"?

When you "expect ANYONE to shoot 1/4" groups with [your] not-factory rifles," are you talking three- or five-shot groups? Also, what magic do you "work" that results in such outstanding shooting?

Steering the rifle is buggering the shot AFTER the trigger is pulled. Also called bad follow through.

I don't consider three shots to be a group, I refer to 5-shot groups with an aggregate group being 25 shots, ALL holes counted.

BR aggs fired in competition are very different than testing aggregates fired under no pressure and when the range conditions are easy. FACT is, it's incredibly easy to fire 1/4" groups with a good rifle, WHEN THE RANGE PERMITS IT.


"controlled conditions" can mean anything from a protected tunnel or building to simply being able to shoot any day, all day picking those times when outdoor conditions are optimal.

"when the range permits" seems self explanatory to me....

As far as anyone being able to shoot 1/4" groups with a BR rifle........ I guess you have to see this to believe it. Shoot a real BR rifle, you WILL shoot 1/4" 5-shot groups on the testing range. If you don't the rifle is crap.

As far as my hunting setups, I'll share this, I apply BR techniques to hunting rifles by isolating what's different and fixing the problems. BR guns are STIFF stocks and SMALL cartridges often glued together, I'll call it a high stiffness to power ratio, getting these features in a repeater presents some problems. Hunting rifles I set up have a bunch of features that cost money, not magic. Some items are;
-shortened chambers,
-clocked barrels,
-fitted dies,
-biased bedding/alignment,
-magwell area stiffened using thicker walls of solid fiber,
-magwell area stiffened using blind 'ADL' style bottom or AL 'chassis' setup,
-forends stiffened/extended/tensioned using threaded rod/steel weights/ pultruded carbon fiber rod stock,
-scopes properly mounted (this is HUGE, IMO 99% of all scope problems can be traced to improper installation)


and on and on. I'm currently testing a large 338 and I started with two new custom actions, 5 barrels and 5 stocks. Over time and by swapping components I've established to my satisfaction that the cartridge will shoot. It's been two years now with this case and I've established that the setup will shoot, as a single shot in a Heavy McMillan BR stock with the scoped setup coming in at 18lb......or as a 16lb repeater. Now I'm working on bringing the weight down. So far I've had one stock custom fabricated by a stock company (fail) and am laying up the mold as we speak to build a carbon fiber stock from the ground up because this beast turns normal stuff into pasta. "Vibration control??" HAHH! This setup makes me want to term it "earthquake control!" Trying to get a large gun to steer down the centerline is kinda' like launching a dragster with your eyes closed, on a wet track, pushbutton throttle........ and you're not allowed to touch the steering wheel.

al

Hunter
02-15-2012, 07:13 PM
Steering the rifle is buggering the shot AFTER the trigger is pulled. Also called bad follow through.

I don't consider three shots to be a group, I refer to 5-shot groups with an aggregate group being 25 shots, ALL holes counted.

BR aggs fired in competition are very different than testing aggregates fired under no pressure and when the range conditions are easy. FACT is, it's incredibly easy to fire 1/4" groups with a good rifle, WHEN THE RANGE PERMITS IT.

...

Hunting rifles I set up have a bunch of features that cost money, not magic. Some items are;
...
-clocked barrels,
...
-scopes properly mounted (this is HUGE, IMO 99% of all scope problems can be traced to improper installation)

I hope you don't mind more questions/comments.

First, what are some of the common things you call "bad follow through"?

Second, if "it's incredibly easy to fire 1/4" groups with a good rifle, WHEN THE RANGE PERMITS IT" and you're "refer[ring] to 5-shot groups with an aggregate group being 25 shots, ALL holes counted," I guess I haven't been around any such range conditions. I'm interested in hearing your description of such conditions.

Third, can you elaborate on "clocked barrels"? I'm not familiar with that term.

Fourth, what are some of the common scope installation problems you see?

alinwa
02-15-2012, 09:27 PM
First, what are some of the common things you call "bad follow through"?

Which bodypart? ;) I'll go with the hands. Off hand, letting go of the joystick, relaxing the squeeze, dropping the shoulder..... Trigger hand, pulling thru, pulling sideways, finding my finger still on the trigger after the shot, with my HBR setups I get all sorts of bad habits because "done right" I tend to get a swollen knuckle..... I don't even know what's "bad" except that in one of my slumps I was getting odd fliers, I couldn't seem to get a handle on it. Someone a lot more experienced than me told me to check if I had enough overtravel slack...... I didn't. I fixed it. My problem disappeared. That time.


Second, if "it's incredibly easy to fire 1/4" groups with a good rifle, WHEN THE RANGE PERMITS IT" and you're "refer[ring] to 5-shot groups with an aggregate group being 25 shots, ALL holes counted," I guess I haven't been around any such range conditions. I'm interested in hearing your description of such conditions.

Can't do it..... I can't always recognize "good." Some days look exactly the same but shoot completely differently. Still days can be the worst, a good steady PNW rain is awesome, Christmas card snow can be good, if I had to bank on a condition on my range I'd say a right-to-left steady between 5 and ten mph is solid for testing.

Sometimes.

For me, I've got to shoot it.


Third, can you elaborate on "clocked barrels"? I'm not familiar with that term.

Clocked simply means I set the curve of the barrel where I want it.


Fourth, what are some of the common scope installation problems you see?

#1, Just bolting the stuff together.
#2, Buying the best stuff money can buy like billet rings and machined bases, and just bolting them all together.
#3, Buying a machined rail so it's "straight" and getting out the red loctite.... and just bolting it all together. With loctite no less, "so it stays together" LOL.

I will say at this juncture that Jerry Stiller makes a rail and pin system that I could ALMOST just bolt together and trust it...... but I still epoxy them down :) ...... And well centered. You point the barrel right when you install it and you don't need to boresight.

I dunno, it's next to impossible to list all the problems, I've just found and eliminated them over the years. I've owned a Hood Scope Checker for ten years....and have several picatinny standoffs. I used these before Charlie came out with his Davidson style one. I charge $135.00 to mount a scope. Worth every penny.

al

Hunter
02-15-2012, 10:13 PM
I'll go with the hands. Off hand, letting go of the joystick
Well, I've never made that mistake -- don't have such a stick. :D


Clocked simply means I set the curve of the barrel where I want it.
I thought the barrel was supposed to be straight. ;)


#2, Buying the best stuff money can buy like billet rings and machined bases, and just bolting them all together.
#3, Buying a machined rail so it's "straight" and getting out the red loctite.... and just bolting it all together. With loctite no less, "so it stays together"Never made those mistakes either. ;)


I charge $135.00 to mount a scope. Worth every penny.Might be a while before I'm ready to jump on that -- thanks for the offer though. :cool:

alinwa
02-15-2012, 10:16 PM
Wasn't an offer, it's a comment.

al

drover
02-16-2012, 12:52 PM
Yep! Coopers don't shoot well at all.

This group is from my Cooper Classic in 222, and the group is typical of the way my others shoot, not bad for a lightweight sporter. No muss, no fuss, just open the box, mount a scope and start shooting. Since the original question pertained to a varmint rifle I think that rifles that group like this are adequate.

I have a model 21 Varminter in 6PPC and a model 22 Varminter in 6BR both of which will best these groups. Both are factory stock, no aftermarket triggers or stocks.

I could live with either the Sako or a Cooper, but as previously stated, I have come to prefer the Coopers. Why? Stock styling, ergonomics, factory support if needed (something you may not get on an older Sako now that Beretta owns Sako), and overall quality of wood fit and finish.

drover

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab220/iamdrover/Cooper222groups.jpg

SGJennings
02-16-2012, 04:58 PM
You might be cheating yourself by subtracting .224. Shoot a single bullet somewhere on the paper, measure and subtract that amount. It could be less or more than .224. Yah, yah, yah. I know. You're supposed to measure center to center... I'm lazy.

walkinhorseman
02-16-2012, 05:28 PM
Al, you are full of unmitigated bovine excrement. You run your mouth a lot but we're not seeing any groups posted here to support all of your noise. Eat my shorts. I've been to gunsmithschool too. Put up or shut up. Maybe your practice with triggers will get you the same fateas Fred Sinclair.

markharp
02-16-2012, 09:05 PM
drover,

I know that I don't know you,,,,,,, but,,,,,,,first match of the year for me is in St. Louis next week. If I struggle on Saturday, would you be willing to FedEX that Cooper to me for Sunday?

Mark

PS. I had a Cooper in 22Khornet that would print like that in the calm. 40gr Sierra Blitz's over H110.

Geronimo Jim
02-16-2012, 10:39 PM
I have a Cooper in 22 Fireball that shoots like that as well..........40 grain V-Max with 15 grains of Lil'Gun.

drover
02-16-2012, 11:30 PM
The odd thing about this particular 222 is that it likes the Hornady V-Max so much, none of my other 22 caliber Coopers shoot the V-Max nearly well they prefer Berger and Sierra bullets.

In my 6PPC and 6BR I use Bergers 68 gr match and they work so well that I haven't tried anything else, although I suppose that someday I should try some true benchrest bullets in them.

drover

alinwa
02-17-2012, 01:04 AM
Al, you are full of unmitigated bovine excrement. You run your mouth a lot but we're not seeing any groups posted here to support all of your noise. Eat my shorts. I've been to gunsmithschool too. Put up or shut up. Maybe your practice with triggers will get you the same fateas Fred Sinclair.

Stick around cowboy, maybe you'll learn something. If you can keep from choking on your own boot.

Piehole SHUT, ears OPEN, children are to be seen and not heard.

al

alinwa
02-17-2012, 02:10 AM
You know, I shouldn't do this but I'm weak......ONE TIME horsewalker. I really wish you were a grownup because there's just so much to see in this picture :)


So I'll post it for others to see. There are hunnerds of shooters out there, people who actually pull triggers instead of humping keyboards..

I don't save groups. I useta' save targets in binders etc but I've streamlined. I leave targets downrange and just keep stapling layers on but this pic thru a scope is interesting if you're a shooter. This is the first time out with an experimental 6MM. This is an 1:8 Krieger chambered long using a 6BR 'fat butt' reamer, no data on this cartridge so I was starting from scratch, inna' hurry as always. I keep notes at the bench and sometimes on the target. As you can see this target has scribbles. I snapped the pic thru the scope because I didn't know if I could retrieve the paper and finish my notations.

That's why it exists..... it's not a bragging target it's just a chronological progression of charges and seating depth changes as I developed data on this new round. Still, even a non-shooter can see as it comes together with the last line of groups being five-shotters. No this isn't an agg and I apologize to all the competitive shooters out there for being goaded into this.

Also, to shooters who understand the significance of this, these are 108 grain 6mm bullets, VLD's, running at up to 3250. Obviously short range 308, PPC or BR groups wouldn't look this ragged........ but this isn't a PPC!!! This is a long range honker....


For horsey guy...... I don't have any real group pictures. You'll have to use your imagination.


Or I could go shoot some'


just for you :)


LOL


al





12272

TD-Max
02-20-2012, 04:46 PM
I have a Sako in .204 and have to say the thing shoots awesone. Mine has the single set trigger that breaks about 9oz when set. The main I have at about 2.5#. Been contemplating adding another Sako or trying a Cooper myself, but I just can't get past the set trigger. I absolutely love it.

ehparis
03-04-2012, 01:49 PM
I once owned one of the lightweight Kimber models. I have several Kimber 1911s and thought I might find some quality in their rifle line as well.

It was a beautiful gun that only weight around 7 1/2 lbs. with scope attached. Unfortunately that pretty lightweight stock warped or had such bad bedding that I was lucky to get 3 inch groups with it. A friend owns one of their varmint models in .22-250 but couldn't get it to shoot until he rebarrelled it.

If you're interested in "only accurate rifles are interesting" I'd avoid the Kimber. The stability of their stocks seems open to question and the barrels are known for any thing resembling accuracy.