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Hambone
10-16-2011, 05:13 PM
Time to be thinking about a new barrel for an old friend.

Decisions, decisions......

What to choose and why ??

Charles E
10-16-2011, 05:28 PM
You all know the poster asking the question, which sounds innocuous, but probably isn't. Let's disappoint him and have a good, polite, sane discussion of the relative merits of each -- if, indeed, there is an difference of significance between them.

If we do that, two things will happen: (1) it may well disappoint him, and (2) someone else might learn something.

ErnieJ
10-16-2011, 07:08 PM
My solution was to buy one of each. Killough has them in stock.
Keep the one that shoots the best.

Carp
10-16-2011, 09:24 PM
Conventional rifling my friend! It still works like it has for more than a hundred years. It lasts longer. My point of view.

John M. Carper

Hambone
10-17-2011, 04:43 AM
You all know the poster asking the question, which sounds innocuous, but probably isn't. Let's disappoint him and have a good, polite, sane discussion of the relative merits of each -- if, indeed, there is an difference of significance between them.

If we do that, two things will happen: (1) it may well disappoint him, and (2) someone else might learn something.

Now look who's being insulting? A site infringement surely? Tut tut from a Super Moderator to boot!

Honest enquire folks with an honest interest.

Hambone
10-17-2011, 04:46 AM
My solution was to buy one of each. Killough has them in stock.
Keep the one that shoots the best.

Funds don't stretch that far unfortunately and I can't afford to scrap a barrel. Not sure what you can do with the one that doesn't work.

Hambone
10-17-2011, 04:57 AM
Conventional rifling my friend! It still works like it has for more than a hundred years. It lasts longer. My point of view.

John M. Carper

John

You say conventional rifling lasts longer. I was under the impression that Polyogon rifling hadn't been in the .22 market long enough to determine its longevity in that format.. I know it needs to be kept ultra clean but most shooters do that anyway with their competition rifles. Don't they? I'm not sure if thats the same with Ratchets though.

Can you expand on your first post please.

Charles E
10-17-2011, 07:25 AM
Sadly, there is no scientific laboratory attached to BR Central to exhaustively analyze and quantify barrel characteristics. You'll have to accept generalizations. So, proper response is "thank you" rather than "but."

Or do you mean no one's bickering yet?

Hambone
10-17-2011, 08:26 AM
I'm happy to accept generalisations.But have always felt that understanding the basis for those generalisations is beneficial to all . Other wise its a matter of buying a pig in a poke.

Continually suggested proper responses don't really work, do they? Sauce for the goose is not always gravy for the gander. You say potato, I say tomato. A little more self reflection perhaps and a little less stirring of the pot.

Carp
10-17-2011, 11:51 PM
John

You say conventional rifling lasts longer. I was under the impression that Polyogon rifling hadn't been in the .22 market long enough to determine its longevity in that format.. I know it needs to be kept ultra clean but most shooters do that anyway with their competition rifles. Don't they? I'm not sure if thats the same with Ratchets though.

Can you expand on your first post please.

Hambone,
Imagine that a bullet needs stability going out the barrel. How much is insignificant in the fact that the more you have the more you get....understand? Cut off or lap out half that stability and you get half the life...right? I ain't talking polygonal....canted or ratchet lands. Polygonal is still a mystery to me...no experience. I can tell you this...I might have witnessed a "hummer of hummers" barrel end its life this weekend.....I hope not....it was the best of the best.

John M. Carper

Boyd Allen
10-17-2011, 11:59 PM
John,
Sorry to hear about your barrel. What is it, and how many rounds have gone through it? Oh, and I hope that your are wrong and it is some sort of cleaning issue.
Boyd

Carp
10-18-2011, 12:32 AM
Boyd Allen,
It wasn't my barrel.

John M. Carper

Boyd Allen
10-18-2011, 01:45 AM
There I go, skimming instead of reading. Still, it would be interesting to know.

Carp
10-18-2011, 10:45 PM
Boyd....I guess without knowing for sure but speculation is is as bad as assumption.....without divulging too much.....I might have witnessed the "death" of a barrel....that is the best information I can give you without knowing for sure....A great price was paid for it's accuracy and purchase.....and a short life of success was achieved.....most of us want that kind of success....but so short lived...could we even begin to get that if we were in his place a second time around.

Carp

tim
10-18-2011, 11:23 PM
I'd be more than a little surprised if that was the case, I've never heard of a barrel just suddenly stopping. More likely unintended damage or chamber/throat fouling are likely suspects.

Hambone
10-19-2011, 03:57 AM
John

You say conventional rifling lasts longer. I was under the impression that Polyogon rifling hadn't been in the .22 market long enough to determine its longevity in that format.. I know it needs to be kept ultra clean but most shooters do that anyway with their competition rifles. Don't they? I'm not sure if thats the same with Ratchets though.

Can you expand on your first post please.

Hambone,
Imagine that a bullet needs stability going out the barrel. How much is insignificant in the fact that the more you have the more you get....understand? Cut off or lap out half that stability and you get half the life...right? I ain't talking polygonal....canted or ratchet lands. Polygonal is still a mystery to me...no experience. I can tell you this...I might have witnessed a "hummer of hummers" barrel end its life this weekend.....I hope not....it was the best of the best.

John M. Carper

John

Gotta ya!

Where are you regarding the thought that its almost impossible to shoot out a .22r/f barrel.

Doug
10-19-2011, 05:30 PM
Shoot out a Barrel - No way!
Abuse a Barrel so it does not shoot - done ever day!
Ask "Old Blue"
(Excess of 200,000 Rounds and still trucking!)
Food For Thought

CliffA
10-19-2011, 05:32 PM
Let me answer the OP's question first

I personally like the Polygon since I believe the lack of sharp edges within the bore is better. I think it stays cleaner longer, and I believe that polygonal bores are more forgiving of inconsistancies in twist rate.

Now for the rest of you. All these posts and I've only seen one other opinion to the OP's question. The rest are either off track, or replies insinuating the OP is trolling, if so why do you bite? If I were a moderator I would probably delete the second post it has absollutly no relavence to the question.

Charles E
10-19-2011, 08:01 PM
If I were a moderator I would probably delete the second post it has absollutly no relavence to the question.Actually, it was mine, and I am a moderator. The only relevance is the context BR Central found itself in at the time the OP made the post. There is another forum, Rimfire Accuracy, where many who post for any length of time tend to follow the percepts of Bill Calfee.

One of Calfees tenants is that there are problems with cut-rifle barrels. It is hard to know exactly what Bill Calfee is thinking, that is, problems under what conditions? If all he means is that he prefers not to use them, no big deal. But rimfire BR is a bit fractured right now, and Bill Calfee is notorious for not giving complete information.

In the meantime, Gordon Eck proved, through enough rifles he built, that there is nothing wrong with cut rifle barrels. His rifles win. Whether or not as much as Calfee, I don't know -- that is at some level a statistical matter, and Calfee's been at it a long time. Suffice it to say that enough Eck rifles have done well enough to prove a point, which shouldn't have come as a surprise in any case.

Mix that with the notion that some off the Eck people were apparently kicked of Rimfire Accuracy. So they say, and I'm in no position to doubt the claim.

Into that context comes a post from someone who has more than once phrased questions worded to stir up debate -- particularly acrimonious debate. He doesn't adhere to the rules of BR Central. For example, he just posted a topic that was bound to bring up politics, which are banned on BR Central. His excuse was that politics are a part of life, and he wants to talk about them. But it's the forums call, not his. After political posts were made, I deleted the entire thread. He reposts it. Same series of events.

Given the animosity between Rimfire Accuracy and some of the people who can't abide Bill Calfee, the topic chosen, and the person who posted, I thought it a fair warning. Been wrong before & I'll be wrong again, but not as often as some think.

CliffA
10-19-2011, 08:47 PM
Charles,
I know exactly where you were coming from, and I know youíre a moderator, I read the forums daily, I know the people that post to intentionally stir up debate, as well as those that seem to thrive on the drama. If you will watch you will see that itís always the same people posting inappropriate replies to the seemingly trolling questions as well as leading things off track to stir a new stink into a post. Keep feeding them and they will keep coming back is all Iím saying. Thatís why I ask again, why take the bait?

Charles E
10-19-2011, 08:50 PM
Because preemptive strikes are ruled out by the task I've been given. Much more prone to them in private.

Carp
10-19-2011, 09:34 PM
John

Gotta ya!

Where are you regarding the thought that its almost impossible to shoot out a .22r/f barrel.

Hambone,
It is not impossible......been there done that. Barrel #2 on my Turbo. It was not improper cleaning.

Carp

tim
10-19-2011, 09:42 PM
Charles, one of the reasons the 6 groove thread went on here is also related to your last post as well. First off some guys were dispatched from the clone forum because there's an unfortunate trend that now develops there. While nobody has any illusions as to why the forum ultimately exists, often the honoree of said forum makes a post, generally involving the usual self promotion, and if there is anything contrary or an attempt to set the factual record straight, that gets selectively deleted.

Said honoree often praises products when there's a bit of back door compinsation, diss's those directly or indirectly when there's no revenue incomming. I think you'd agree, not exactly objective. Also liberal credit taking whether deserving or not. There are human limits I hope you'd agree. So the point of some of this stuff is ultimately to provide a bit of fair counterpoint. Everybody does not expect our moderators to follow everybody everywhere but you should realize sometimes relevance is measured in the greater scheme of things. It's often a case of something starts in one spot, gets picked up a carried someplace else, kind of the cyberspace chessgame equivilent. Nobody said it's rational.

Carp
10-19-2011, 10:23 PM
I've been called on for a post on one forum with out relavance to another post on the other. It was just a warning...or maybe a threat, I don't know. But, no matter how unfair it may seem...I don't have my own forum to just see how I would run it. I feel that considerable effort is put into both and without question, as far as me, it has been served well. But I don't have my own forum. Badmouthing sometimes is a good way to bring things back to perspective...and others it is nothing but badmouthing. The really good guys get no media-time. They just get ingnored...unless they complain and then it looks bad on them. I feel bad for guys like James Pappas. He is a genuinely good guy. He has great products. He has something to say now and then and some folks take him wrong and bash him. I've seen self promotion from him a bit....but not to the extent of another....not even close...as far apart as Fenway Park and Dodger Stadium. The difference is how we take it and perceive it and talk about it on open, or semi-open forums. There are many things that folks don't want to hear about...like shooting out barrels and nearly un-beatable ammo. They exist. And the poor folks at Rock Creek Barrels....can you find anyone more excited about rimfire in the barrel making world? I don't think so. They are committed. They have a real investment that counts for their livelihood. They deserve our attention. Fine folks like Stiller and Hall and Benchmark deserve our attention. It is a commonsense approach to the manufacturers of todays equipment and tomorrows. Just my 2 cents.

John M. Carper

Charles E
10-20-2011, 12:33 AM
John,

Let me be a little over dramatic here. You can argue that bad-mouthing is a way to bring things into perspective, but so too is armed robbery a way to get money. It just happens to be against the rules.

As far as the forum rules go, no one at BR Central is out to create the perfect forum -- certainly not perfect for all. The conventions -- rules, if you want -- some of which have come from experience, some by common sense, are just there. It is usually a mater of degree. Nudging versus bad mouthing. It reminds me of a thing we had in school. To turn the old joke on it's head, it is easy enough to say what art is, what can be hard is to say whether or not *this piece* is a work of art.

Worse, some people play games, to see just how close they can come & get away with it. More than one does that. Tim calls it human nature, and I suppose that is right. But if we just describe this and throw up our hands, nothing gets done.

So moderators deletions and infractions can be a judgement call. We have to live with that.

A second problem: what can and cannot effectively be done on BR Central or any forum, or to some extent, with any book? Essentially, it is equipment, and techniques that can be measured with tools. How would you like to try and describe, in detail, how to use wind flags, given only a written medium. Not me. But what is more important to shooting well?

Shooting well is a system sort of thing. Every thing has to be working for you, not just one or two. You're "in the zone," not thinking and calculating. Preparation counts only so that bad things don't happen to kick you out of the zone.

OK, that's a little cavalier. But almost all we can do with words, with forums, is in the preparation area. One reason the top shooters don't post is because for them, all we talk about is basic stuff that has nothing to do with actually shooting.

I don't buy that it is hopeless to have a forum that can't even cover preparation, because human nature inevitably leads to bickering and infighting. Words are still useful things, and human nature always needs controls on it to have any kind of society, even the temporary one of an internet forum.

Edit:

I'll allow we've gotten a bit off the topic . . .

Hambone
10-20-2011, 03:32 AM
Shoot out a Barrel - No way!
Abuse a Barrel so it does not shoot - done ever day!
Ask "Old Blue"
(Excess of 200,000 Rounds and still trucking!)
Food For Thought

200,000....Wow!

Hambone
10-20-2011, 03:36 AM
Let me answer the OP's question first

I personally like the Polygon since I believe the lack of sharp edges within the bore is better. I think it stays cleaner longer, and I believe that polygonal bores are more forgiving of inconsistancies in twist rate.

Now for the rest of you. All these posts and I've only seen one other opinion to the OP's question. The rest are either off track, or replies insinuating the OP is trolling, if so why do you bite? If I were a moderator I would probably delete the second post it has absollutly no relavence to the question.

Thanks Cliff on both counts

Abuse of power is never a pretty sight be it by a government or by a small time forum moderator. With the first we get a chance to vote them out, with the second we get a chance to see them squirm and try to justify their actions. They never quite get there though.

Hambone
10-20-2011, 03:39 AM
John

Gotta ya!

Where are you regarding the thought that its almost impossible to shoot out a .22r/f barrel.

Hambone,
It is not impossible......been there done that. Barrel #2 on my Turbo. It was not improper cleaning.

Carp

OK. Some details would be appreciated. how many rounds, type, what went wrong etc.

J Pappas
10-20-2011, 05:17 PM
Thanks Cliff on both counts

Abuse of power is never a pretty sight be it by a government or by a small time forum moderator. With the first we get a chance to vote them out, with the second we get a chance to see them squirm and try to justify their actions. They never quite get there though.

You abuse your power to post more than all the moderators combined. Charles for some reason is your target, he has done nothing to deserve your continuing post. Wilbur is a real easy going person but I think you are close to pissing him off.

tim
10-20-2011, 06:17 PM
You abuse your power to post more than all the moderators combined. Charles for some reason is your target, he has done nothing to deserve your continuing post. Wilbur is a real easy going person but I think you are close to pissing him off.

Ya gotta admit James the guy's got a future in customer relations.

tuna921
10-20-2011, 06:21 PM
Polygons barrels are more wind sensitive like the Medford and Octagon in my experience ,,,,,,,,,,,,

Hambone
10-21-2011, 04:20 AM
You abuse your power to post more than all the moderators combined. Charles for some reason is your target, he has done nothing to deserve your continuing post. Wilbur is a real easy going person but I think you are close to pissing him off.

Jim

Thanks for sharing. But without the full facts. I doubt that you've seen a fraction of what has been deleted. A lack of objectivity has to be expected. I no way blame you for that, its just the way it is.

AFAIC The subject has run its course. Chuck has done his part , and I have done mine. The play is writ and the scenes have been play. Apart for a few stragglers in the wings the stage is bare waiting for the next act to begin. Perhaps it will be a musical comedy act. I like them.

Hambone
10-21-2011, 04:29 AM
Polygons barrels are more wind sensitive like the Medford and Octagon in my experience ,,,,,,,,,,,,

Why do you think that is?

I'm sure there's some sort of ballistic theory, but I'm never sure if ballistics is an exact science. It would be interesting to find out though.