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edgerat
09-07-2011, 12:29 AM
How do the manufacturers determine what goes in what box, how do lot numbers get assigned, what kind of sampling size is used when they put the velocity on the box, I believe Eley is the only company that puts velocity on the box right? Pie in the sky question, if you could have the perfect round, would it be an EPS bullet with Lapua lube or....?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Isaac

Brian_K
09-07-2011, 02:40 AM
I believe Eley is the only company that puts velocity on the box right?

RWS have recently started to put the speed on the boxes, at least on R50.

It's in meters per second, so 331, 332m/s etc

Brian

Hambone
09-07-2011, 03:47 AM
There have been a number of threads across the forums on this subject.

Sample size for determination of speed and quality is relatively small when compared to the individual numbers in a batch. Investment and improvements to production consistency over the last 10-12 years has seen to that.

There was a video looking at the Eley production process doing the rounds a some time back. I can't recall where I first saw it. But an internet search might toss it into the light.

dankillough
09-07-2011, 09:06 AM
Here is how Eley does it.

Tenex, Match, and Team all comes off 6 different machines. Each box is labelled 1011-06031 then below that it will have the velocity. The 1011 is the product code and year stamp. 10 means it was loaded to be Tenex and the 11 means it was made in 2011. Match or Team will probably have the same 10** number to begin with because it was intended to be Tenex, but when testing was downgraded to Match or Team. The 06031 is the lot or batch number. In the U.S. we call it the lot, in England they call it a batch. 06 is the machine number and 031 is the lot. Most competitors would say "I am shooting lot 6031". A lot is produced as long as the machine is running. If the machine is shut down for any reason, then the next time it is restarted, a new lot number begins. Once the ammo is produced, it goes to the test range where it is shot indoors at 50M in 4 different factory Anschutz Rifles. 50 rounds is shot in each rifle for a total of 200 rounds. The group size and average velocity is calculated and if it meets the standard set for Tenex, then it goes in Tenex boxes. If it meets the standard for Match, then it goes into Match boxes. If it meets neither standard, then it goes into Team boxes. The best stuff is in Tenex boxes. Eley will not disclose what these standards are, but they assure me that they are periodically improving the standards. The Match of today would have been good enough for Tenex a few years ago. The velocity on the box is determined from the 200 rounds.

Hope this helps.

edgerat
09-07-2011, 10:37 AM
Clear as day Dan, thank you very much!
Isaac

Pete Wass
09-07-2011, 06:54 PM
I was told by someone who may know that one can expect to have two flyers in each box of Match. Doesn't mean that one will but statistically, the computer told them that it might happen. The interesting thing is one can not be assured that all 10X will work in their rifle, even though it costs a lot more. I don't know about flyers but, apparently, one is paying not to experience any.

tim
09-07-2011, 11:01 PM
I was told by someone who may know that one can expect to have two flyers in each box of Match. Doesn't mean that one will but statistically, the computer told them that it might happen. The interesting thing is one can not be assured that all 10X will work in their rifle, even though it costs a lot more. I don't know about flyers but, apparently, one is paying not to experience any.

I have'nt had a flyer in about 3 cases of match there Pete. Talk to someone different.

Hambone
09-08-2011, 06:21 AM
Given the size of the batches now being produced and relatively small sampling number selected for those batches. One can fall quite easily one side or other of the mean performance average.
Understanding that the likes of Eley base their minimum required GM.s on their lowest cost products makes looking hard at the budget ranges quite attractive.

Pete Wass
09-08-2011, 08:53 AM
I seem to have about two per card from the two lots I have Tim. I was looking through the stats and averages yesterday Tim and I noticed that you hadn't shot all 250's so far this year. Think that might have something to do with the "Match" you have?

Hey, Didn't I tell you not to answer my posts ? Pay attention!

Bill B
09-08-2011, 10:19 AM
My definition of a flyer is a round that went someplace completely unexpected or unanticipated by the conditions. Pete, most misses are due to missing the condition, i.e. not holding off far enough, missing the mirage, thermals etc. Occaisionally (very rarely) I'll get a round that'll go somewhere completely unexpected or goes against the conditions I'm seeing with my flags. It's those "Now why did that go there" type of miss. Dennis Drake had one of those at the Worlds when he had a round from a lot of ammo, which he had alot of success with, go 4 points directly low. Now that was a flyer. Missing the 10 ring by a just a hair, in the same direction as the wind would be pushing it, would not be a flyer. That's a miss. If your misses are mostly vertical, but your horizontal is good, look to your tuner. (Which you already indicated, you think is not in tune.) Some of the best lots of Eley I've ever shot were/are Match lots.

Hambone
09-08-2011, 12:34 PM
Hey, Didn't I tell you not to answer my posts ? Pay attention!

Now that I find funny.:D

Hambone
09-08-2011, 12:35 PM
Great tips there Bill. Thanks buddy.

tim
09-08-2011, 03:55 PM
I seem to have about two per card from the two lots I have Tim. I was looking through the stats and averages yesterday Tim and I noticed that you hadn't shot all 250's so far this year. Think that might have something to do with the "Match" you have?

Hey, Didn't I tell you not to answer my posts ? Pay attention!

When I drop a shot it's generally because I made a mistake. With you it seems to be because you're cluless, there's a fundimental difference there Pete. I mean, lordy, every time you post something goofy, which is really a lot, somebody tries to get you back on the rails but no go. Hell, you don't want responses, don't make dumb posts on public forums.

Hambone
09-08-2011, 04:03 PM
Boy it seems you have a stick up your butt with just about everybody.
You two don't seem to be too far apart geographically so why don't you just meet up some time and settle your differences....................... mano a mano?

tim
09-08-2011, 04:48 PM
Boy it seems you have a stick up your butt with just about everybody.
You two don't seem to be too far apart geographically so why don't you just meet up some time and settle your differences....................... mano a mano?

Pete- Hammy, Hammy- Pete, this is better than e-harmony.

Pete Wass
09-08-2011, 06:45 PM
When I drop a shot it's generally because I made a mistake. With you it seems to be because you're cluless, there's a fundimental difference there Pete. I mean, lordy, every time you post something goofy, which is really a lot, somebody tries to get you back on the rails but no go. Hell, you don't want responses, don't make dumb posts on public forums.

Friend Tim, Stop answering my posts!

Pete

Pete Wass
09-08-2011, 06:51 PM
Boy it seems you have a stick up your butt with just about everybody.
You two don't seem to be too far apart geographically so why don't you just meet up some time and settle your differences....................... mano a mano?

Friend Hambone,

I am an old and disabled Vet. I have no desire to be physical with anyone other than my Ms. Joannah. I'm sure I don't want to have to sue anyone and I'm sure nobody wants to sue me so quasi-verbal swats will have to surfice.

Friend Pete

tim
09-08-2011, 08:37 PM
And romance blumes. And Pete they're not posts, in an attempt to promote a bit of actual technical assistance some real useful first hand experience is often useful. You want no answer to your posts, try to avoid your usual hearsay, rumor,assumtions, etc. all of which seem counterproductive.

Halo68
09-08-2011, 08:41 PM
Pete, What is the nature of your disability( if not to personnel)

tuna921
09-08-2011, 08:44 PM
Tim hows the new rifle ? Whats lots do you like lately?

tim
09-08-2011, 10:02 PM
Tim hows the new rifle ? Whats lots do you like lately?

So far I've only shot it down at Gordon's but I'm impressed, it did very well. 6223@1054 Tennex & 6034@1057 Match. At one point I put maybe 7-8 shots in one black hole before I cut it a little vertical. Barrel did nothing unexpected, at one point even stopped to BS a few minutes to see if it would wait a bit for me... it did. Just gotta get a few through it, maybe piddle with the tune a bit more.

lefty o
09-08-2011, 10:13 PM
id really like to see how eley does it, but am curious do they stop the lot at what point in the process? im 99.9% positive the bullet swadging machines arent inline with the machines that draw the brass, or the ones that insert the priming compound or the ones that add powder and seat the bullet. does any stop in any process result in a new lot, or is it just the final powder/bullet seating process? how many different machines make bullets from wire, and how many draw brass, and how many prime? there are alot of variables involved in making rimfire ammunition.

Hambone
09-09-2011, 04:03 AM
Friend Hambone,

I am an old and disabled Vet. I have no desire to be physical with anyone other than my Ms. Joannah. I'm sure I don't want to have to sue anyone and I'm sure nobody wants to sue me so quasi-verbal swats will have to surfice.

Friend Pete

Pete

You've misunderstood my suggestion. It has been my experience that those who are bold and bluff on an internet forum are usually nothing like that in the flesh. For what ever reason!
I'm sure that Timbo fits snuggley into that category. No need for any physicality what so ever. just a cordial exchange of views and opinions over a beer or a coffee.

I believe the phrase all bark and no teeth. has some validity. Or in the case of my particular "friend" all mouth and no trousers.

I have to admit I enjoy reading your swats.

Atb

Brian_K
09-09-2011, 05:53 AM
all mouth and no trousers.


Nearly choked on my quarter pounder and large fries there. Let us know where the bedroom is, still willing to fund the cost of the bus.

Now hes looking for friends Peter, sad really, but one of his usual tactics.

Brian
ps for a cup of coffee and a chat, of course.

Pete Wass
09-09-2011, 09:05 PM
Pete

You've misunderstood my suggestion. It has been my experience that those who are bold and bluff on an internet forum are usually nothing like that in the flesh. For what ever reason!
I'm sure that Timbo fits snuggley into that category. No need for any physicality what so ever. just a cordial exchange of views and opinions over a beer or a coffee.

I believe the phrase all bark and no teeth. has some validity. Or in the case of my particular "friend" all mouth and no trousers.

I have to admit I enjoy reading your swats.

Atb

So far, I have met him once in the flesh and he was exactly as you discribe here. It's easy for folks to run their motuhs on these forums. not so easy in person when there are other folks around. The interesting thing is I don't value his opinions a heck of a lot a he, somehow, seems to think he knows everything there is to know about everything. Frankly, I don't believe he does. If anyone disagrees with him, automatically they are idiots. Go figure! What ever happned to a civil discourse? In all the years I have been shooting and participating on these forums I have encountered exactly two of this type of personality. One of them passed away a few yeas ago so we don't have to endure his insulence but now this guy - - - - . There is an old saw that goes something like, " there isn't anything wrong with this town that a few good funerals wouldn't cure". It worked once before - - - -

Hambone
09-10-2011, 05:04 AM
:D:D
So far, I have met him once in the flesh and he was exactly as you discribe here. It's easy for folks to run their motuhs on these forums. not so easy in person when there are other folks around. The interesting thing is I don't value his opinions a heck of a lot a he, somehow, seems to think he knows everything there is to know about everything. Frankly, I don't believe he does. If anyone disagrees with him, automatically they are idiots. Go figure! What ever happned to a civil discourse? In all the years I have been shooting and participating on these forums I have encountered exactly two of this type of personality. One of them passed away a few yeas ago so we don't have to endure his insulence but now this guy - - - - . There is an old saw that goes something like, " there isn't anything wrong with this town that a few good funerals wouldn't cure". It worked once before - - - -

Pete

:D:D:D

Awesome, man just awesome!

I'll start digging the graves. You call the funeral director. I have a name or 2 I'd like added to the list for the grim reaper if thats ok. Ones a definite heart attack waiting to happen.

lefty o
09-10-2011, 09:49 PM
seems a bunch of little girls need to go GROW UP!

ShevyII
09-11-2011, 09:14 AM
If you do have a case or 2 of Eley Match (different lots # and speeds) that shoots good in your rifle and then you get the 2 or 3 flyers per box is there a way the weed out the good from the bad ???? This is the problem I am having now and I do not want ot buy and test new ammo and I will not sell this ammo to anyone else knowing the problem.

tuna921
09-11-2011, 09:24 AM
If you do have a case or 2 of Eley Match (different lots # and speeds) that shoots good in your rifle and then you get the 2 or 3 flyers per box is there a way the weed out the good from the bad ???? This is the problem I am having now and I do not want ot buy and test new ammo and I will not sell this ammo to anyone else knowing the problem.

Some people say sorting by weight,rim thickness works some say it doesn't matter ..

It could also be your rifle and it could be out of tune.

As far as selling it some rifles love ammo mine would not shoot. So because your rifle doesn't like it doesn't mean someones wont

tim
09-11-2011, 06:05 PM
If you do have a case or 2 of Eley Match (different lots # and speeds) that shoots good in your rifle and then you get the 2 or 3 flyers per box is there a way the weed out the good from the bad ???? This is the problem I am having now and I do not want ot buy and test new ammo and I will not sell this ammo to anyone else knowing the problem.

I have a question for you, did you get this ammo direct from a vendor and what time of the year may I ask?

tuna921
09-11-2011, 06:52 PM
I have a question for you, did you get this ammo direct from a vendor and what time of the year may I ask?


I would like to know the lot numbers and speeds.....

ShevyII
09-11-2011, 07:22 PM
Eley Match Lot# 1009-04080 speed 1070 bought last year and 1010-03296 speed 1058 bought back in May. I get the same 2 to 3 flyers per box in my 2 rifles and I let a friend try the 1058 without telling him about the problem and after he shot a test target he asked me if I also was getting some flyers.

twentytwoguy
09-13-2011, 10:06 PM
Eley fliers are pretty rare but have seen a few at local matches over the years. Often they chamber a bit different than others and almost always have an audibly different report.... usually quieter and they tend to drop low and obviously have a lighter charge and tend to make the competitor say unmentionable things.

willymakit
09-14-2011, 01:44 PM
To confirm detached shots are not "me", I have been shooting over a chrony and shots high will be 30-40 fps. higher. That seems a lot for high end Lapua? Could still be the rifle causing differant ignition? It's the black magic of rimfire!
willy