PDA

View Full Version : Forming 22 PPC from Lapua .220 Russian... some questions??



XBBR Shooter
06-27-2011, 05:09 PM
I have a new Dakota/Nesika Heavy Barreled "Predator" rifle coming to me in a few months from a collector's estate - I was the high bidder.
It is unfired, and has the most beautiful AAA+ Exhibition grade Claro wood I have even seen (and I have seen a lot of nice wood :) )

It is in 22 PPC, with a 10" twist and a 254" neck.

I have never owned a 22 PPC, so I have a few quick questions.

I looked at the case diagrams and there is a 0.028" difference in length at the base of the neck/shoulder.

My question is.... can I just expand the neck on the .220 Russian Lapua cases, load to jam, and chamber the case and crush the 0.028 neck junction and shoot it and blow it out like an Ackley, or do I need to do a case form ritual (id est, FL size, form a false shoulder, etc) with the .220 Russian cases?

With a .254" neck, I should not have to turn the necks first, unless the 220 Russian cases have a neck wall thickness of over 0.014".

Does anyone know what the neck thickness is on new Lapua .220 Russian cases?

Thanks...

stiller
06-27-2011, 07:45 PM
When you fire a 220 case in a 6mm ppc chamber, it is pretty tight. I doubt you will need to form the false shoulder. You may have to put it through the 22 ppc die first though to even get it in.

Vern
06-27-2011, 07:49 PM
The best thing you can do is
1 look at the barrel and see if it is stanped with the neck size just to make sure it is 254.
2 Make sure it is a true 22 ppc and not the 22 .100 short.
3. You can get serosafe from sinclair or some of the others and make a chamber casting and know EXACTLY what you have.

I dont know what they are now days but make sure you check a loaded round or 5 and make sure the loaded round is not more than the .252. If so you should be ready to go.

XBBR Shooter
06-27-2011, 08:21 PM
The best thing you can do is
1 look at the barrel and see if it is stanped with the neck size just to make sure it is 254.
2 Make sure it is a true 22 ppc and not the 22 .100 short.
3. You can get serosafe from sinclair or some of the others and make a chamber casting and know EXACTLY what you have.

I dont know what they are now days but make sure you check a loaded round or 5 and make sure the loaded round is not more than the .252. If so you should be ready to go.

Thank you for your overwhelming concern for me and my safety...

.. but:

1 - It IS a full sized 22 PCC.
2 - It IS a .254 neck.
3 - Since the gun is unfired, and spent it's life in a box, there are no "loaded rounds" to check... and since I'm the one that has to make the loaded rounds - they will mic to whatever I make them to. ;)

I gave all the technical information in my original post.

Why would I have given technical information if I didn't know it.

I would not ask a question and give made up information. That would be "felony stupid"... a "Duh" moment :(

zippy06
06-27-2011, 09:06 PM
XBR. You MUST be a new shooter.
Mis-information is rampant in the shooting sports..........:(
A lot of "he said-she said".
Here's an old one.
Gunsmith says bring new brass. Customer says I got a bunch.
Customer shows up.
Gunsmith says where's the new brass. Customer says right here.
Gunsmith says that's used brass. Customer says it's new to me......

By the way. Vern is just trying to help out.
There are a lot of .22PPC variations.

XBBR Shooter
06-27-2011, 09:14 PM
XBR. You MUST be a new shooter.
Mis-information is rampant in the shooting sports..........:(


Not new. Loading and shooting for more years than I am willing to admit.

Vern
06-27-2011, 09:19 PM
xbbr if you knew as much as you thought you did,
You would have realized I was talking about measuring a round you loaded not one being sent to you.
With only 10 posts your sarcasm rivals a few others here. If you keep it up others will not be so willing to help you.
That was all I was trying to do. Since I have shot the 22ppc and the 6 I do know that there are some issues.
What you have is something you have obviously never seen so all of your info is based on something someone told you. You didnt specify if the original owner was the one who gave the info or if this was from an estate sale. There have been a lot of those lately with misinformation like zippy referred to.
But now I suppose since you have been shooting so long you do not need any more help from me.
Have fun and be safe.

XBBR Shooter
06-27-2011, 09:31 PM
xbbr if you knew as much as you thought you did,
You would have realized I was talking about measuring a round you loaded not one being sent to you.
With only 10 posts your sarcasm rivals a few others here. If you keep it up others will not be so willing to help you.
That was all I was trying to do. Since I have shot the 22ppc and the 6 I do know that there are some issues.
But now I suppose since you have been shooting so long you do not need any more help from me.
Have fun and be safe.

I was sarcastic because of your condescending tone. It should have been obvious that I knew enough to ask about the neck wall thickness...

I said, "With a .254" neck, I should not have to turn the necks first, unless the 220 Russian cases have a neck wall thickness of over 0.014"."

So, lemme see - two times 0.014", plus 0.224" is equal to...

... 0.252". So you tell me that I have to measure the case necks to see if they are 0.252. Why not say something obvious?

But I think you are right "... you do not need any more help from me."

Yeah... you are right on that one.

Boyd Allen
06-28-2011, 12:40 AM
Warning: Not responsible for unintended condescension, or content that my be irritating to some users. Read at your own peril.

How about this...expand up, and load, at a length that causes the bullet to be pushed back into the case as the bolt is closed. Fire and check that case for any obvious problems. The difference in case shape should keep the pressure down with any powder that is appropriate for a .22 PPC with the bullet weight that you choose. With a 6PPC I have to turn onto the shoulder a bit, so that I can close the bolt if I am fire forming with a 6mm bullet. How does the bolt close on an expanded case?

Good luck. Let us know what happens.

Boyd

XBBR Shooter
06-28-2011, 07:01 AM
Good morning Boyd. My first laugh of the day. :)

Thank you (and Stiller) for your suggestions. I have ordered a Redding body die, and a set of comp shell holders.

Off hand, do you know what the neck wall thickness is for the current (blue plastic box) 220 Russian case is?

It'll be a while before I get the rifle, the estate is large, and I am a small fry in the scheme of things.

Jase'

SGJennings
06-28-2011, 08:27 AM
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=220+russian+lapua

XBBR Shooter
06-28-2011, 08:34 AM
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=220+russian+lapua

Thank you.. veeeery helpful.

SGJennings
06-28-2011, 08:35 AM
Yvw.

Vern
06-28-2011, 09:48 AM
jase
Nothing I said was meant to be or had any intent of being disrespectful or otherwise, in my original post.
I apologize for hurting your feelings.

XBBR Shooter
06-28-2011, 10:38 AM
jase
Nothing I said was meant to be or had any intent of being disrespectful or otherwise, in my original post.
I apologize for hurting your feelings.

Feelings not hurt. It just gets real old, and I get tired of it. You join a new website, and you get treated like you just got off the melon truck. Replies like yours KILL websites, by driving away new members.

I asked two very clear (and simple) questions.
One was, what was needed to form the 22 PPC cases from 220 Russian - load 'em and jam 'em, or a body die, or go through the troubles of making a false shoulder. You made NO attempt, not even a teeny effort, to answer it.

The second was an easy one, a "gimme" - how thick are the necks on the current Lapua 220 Russian (blue plastic box). Again, you made NO attempt to answer it, and if you have all the experence with this case that you imply, that should have come right off the top of your head.

It should have been clear by the language of the question, that I was knowledgeable about the subject... I mean I knew the caliber and neck dia (it's stamped on the barrel), and I know how to form false shoulders... so it should have been obvious that I didn't "... just get off the melon truck".

What you did, was give me lots of warnings about the cartridge, like I was a 10 year old child with my first rifle, and NO help or information.

Do you talk to others on this site like that? Somehow, I doubt it.

And, as a point of information, you can not tell the difference between a 22 PPC, and a 22 PPC-0.10 by making a cerosafe cast - (I have a pound of cerosafe). The chamber cast will NOT give you the headspace, and without the headspace, you can not tell if you have a 0.10" short chamber.

And what's with the "10 post" comment.

Does that mean I bought my first rifle two months ago??? How many posts does it take, 100, 200, 500?... before you answer a question with a straight answer?

What does a new member have to do, in order to not be spoken to like they are 10 years old... post a resume'?

OK... I was a gunsmith for 7 years, until I figured out that I couldn't make a decent living at it. Went back to school, and wound up director of research at Columbia University (in optics) in the late 70's.
In the late 90's I was a consultant to Leupold on one of their military scopes.
Until this last January, I was head of production and ballistics for a small ammunition company that went under due to the economy.

So maybe you won't speak to me like I am 10 in the future - OK?

P.S.. I forgive you.

:) :) :)

HovisKM
06-28-2011, 12:17 PM
XBBR,

Please ignore most of my return PM to you. I hadn't seen this post yet.

I've had the same setup on a REM 700 action before. There is a couple of ways to attack this problem. One, seat a 22cal round you are going to use (the largest diameter one) and measure the neck. If they are .252 or less, then your are good to go. If not, then your going to have to neck turn some. I do not have any of the blue box but if most is checking out like Jackie's did then you are going to have to neck turn.

.0150 x 2 + .224 (bullet diameter, this can and will vary) = .254 outside loaded round.

If you want to possibly make life a little easier on you, I have quite a bit (I think) of the older thinner brass (new). I will swap it or sell it to you if you don't want to neck turn and the measurements come out right. If your interested, give me a call tonight (I'll PM my number) and we can work out the details.

Post a pic of the rifle...I bet it's a pretty one.

Hovis

XBBR Shooter
06-28-2011, 12:39 PM
Hovis...

Thanks. It'll be a few months before I get the rifle, it is "mine" but the estate is tied up on some things (I think estate taxes), so when all the goodies are released, I will be in walnut heaven :) :)

There was a second one I bid on (in 6mmBR) but I don't think I will get that.

zippy06
06-28-2011, 08:31 PM
XBR.
I treat everyone like a 10 yr. old. Till they open their pie hole.
And I train the same way. I tell every trainee the same. Too much info.
Because, I don't know what they know.
It worked at 2 of the biggest companies. And it still works.
And I still get the "why didn't you tell me that" BS.
By the way. Let us know how that 22PPC works out?
And are you going to shoot competition with it?

zippy06
06-28-2011, 08:33 PM
PS. My .220 brass was not Blue box. But, I think just before.

XBBR Shooter
06-28-2011, 08:46 PM
Good evening Zippy... I think you and I have different philosophies on teaching, but I'm not gonna feed this anymore, it's done!

Yes... I'll shoot it at the local BR matches, but mostly, I'm gonna shoot it in the local egg shoots. It's 500 yds (jumbo, grade "A" white, on a string ;) ) and a blood bath course, but every one goes home laughing.

Plus some crows will meet Mister Dakota, for sure.

XBBR Shooter
06-28-2011, 08:50 PM
PS. My .220 brass was not Blue box. But, I think just before.

I read on one of the threads that the change to the blue box, and the change to the 0.015 neck did not happen exactly at the same time, so it is possible to have thick necks in a cardboard box, and thin necks in a blue box... or so I understand it.
But that is second hand info, so consider it for what it is.

HovisKM
06-29-2011, 11:32 AM
I just checked some brass that varies from 2 to 4 yrs old. They are all .0150 except for about 10 in a box that are closer to .0143 None are blue box of course.

Hovis

zippy06
06-30-2011, 12:28 AM
XBR okay.
Wish I could check. All my brass is turned.
It turned out a "POS Bridgeport" mill was pretty accurate. Then they moved it....

Butch Lambert
06-30-2011, 01:02 PM
I measured several pieces from the gold cardboard boxes. They varied from .0145-.0151. They were up to .0003 off per piece of brass or .0151 to .0148 on some of them. I think I would have to turn them to clean up anyway. JMHO!
Butch

XBBR Shooter
06-30-2011, 01:39 PM
I measured several pieces from the gold cardboard boxes. They varied from .0145-.0151. They were up to .0003 off per piece of brass or .0151 to .0148 on some of them. I think I would have to turn them to clean up anyway. JMHO!
Butch

Thank you... it seems that even the old ones were close enough to require turning - I'm set up for that (I shoot a 0.262 6mmBR)