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View Full Version : grizzly 4003G VS PM 1236??



skeetlee
05-01-2011, 09:32 PM
i talked to dad today and we decided we would go ahead and get a lathe on order. My dad is a tool maker for GE so he will be a great teacher so i want to get a decent machine. The grizzly gunsmith lathe and the pm 1236 are the two lathes in my price range so i wonder what unit is the better of the two? dad will also study these machines and we will make the choice together. just looking for you fellas opinions on these two units. What one is the better unit. They seem to be about the same to me. The PM has a foot brake and it sounds like it may run a little more quite. The grizzly seems to have decent customer support, so i dont really know myself what one to look at. thanks Lee

MColeman
05-01-2011, 09:43 PM
I bought my second Grizzly before they introduced the gunsmith lathe. I sold my first one to buy their 13x40 toolroom lathe. I can't quote model numbers from memory but the toolroom lathe sold for $6,000 new when I bought it. I think they're up to nearly $8,000 now but I love the foot brake.

Don't know what your budget will allow but I'm a big fan of Grizzly tools.

Ian_Owen
05-02-2011, 07:06 AM
Mickey I'm like you, I love the foot brake......every lathe should have one...........Ian

GordonE
05-02-2011, 11:40 AM
Skeet
Like Mickey said buy a Grizzly. I have both. The Precision Mathews has been a nightmare. They don't stock parts. I have been waiting four months and and still no word or part. All i get is the run around. With the Grizzly you will get customer service.

JohnsonGunsmith
05-02-2011, 05:14 PM
Skeet I do not own a Grizzly but have heard good things and feel that The owner is a honest man who loves the shooting industry and does his best to support it. What more could you ask for in the President of a company? Anyway I think you will like the Lathe and there is no substitute for building your own gun and it shooting one hole groups. Good luck and I think you are about to find yet another addiction in this shooting habit we all have. It sure will cut down on the lead time also gives you control of what and how you want your guns done. You will love doing your own work I am sure. Keep us informed and post pictures of your projects.

skeetlee
05-02-2011, 05:16 PM
Customer service is definitely a plus. We are planning a trip to springfield MO to the grizzly store, and we will get to see what all they have to offer. Another question i have is if a belt drive system would be better for cutting and threading chambers as apposed to a gear drive system? Lee

alinwa
05-03-2011, 12:28 AM
Skeet the Grizzly 4003G is a belt drive, it's set up correctly IMO so that when you crash it it slips the belt instead of wiping out the gears. I'm not sure about the bigger machines but I'm guessing they are too. (I say "when" you crash it because I'm in construction.... Stuff Happens. If you ain't screwing up you ain't trying hard enough.)

The owner, Shiraz Balolia is a shooter. He designed the 4003G and advertised it here on BRC for a special trial price. He, or someone, also posted vids of Gordy Gritters chambering on Grizzly equipment. I bought one of those first ones and have been perfectly happy with it.

I will probably never have anyone do my gunsmithing work again. I'm pleasant to my children now, haven't kicked the dawg for months.... and I owe it all to not having to argue with other people about paying them to do what I want! ;)


And don't worry about the "accuracy" thing..... alla' this talk about 50 Willionths is garbage. A Grizzly is plenty accurate for what we do and besides, you pour concrete, you KNOW how to find center, how to isolate what's real and what's chaff. What's important to ME is vibration control and tracking, I can now play with these effects. I can easily point a barrel where I want it.... I can predict where it will hit at 100yds within a couple inches. Any decent machinist should be able to do the same thing, and it sounds like you've got a good teacher.


Concrete guy???

You'll be a natural. Locating 50 bolt plates in 3 dimensions is just as hard as chambering a barrel.

And running these toy machines doing this sort of work is more ability than science anyways...... kinda' like excavating. How many GOOD excavators need a laser backing up their antique eye level? In our business they say "you gotta' know how to SHOVEL before you can run a backhoe" and that exactly illustrates the situation. If you can grade using an eye level then having Spectra-Physics set your mo'chine for an extra 50K doesn't make you any better ;) Same for concrete. My buddy Big Dave Somero invented the Laser Screed back when I was working for him in NH. It's now sold all over the world, it's redefined "Superflat," they had to redo the 'F' numbers for this BadBoy.... but a couple good men on a handrod can still make flat. (it'll HURT worse!) And you can't pour 50,000 square with 10guys handrodding.... but you can still do good work.

You can do top-notch work on a Grizzly machine. It'll be SLOW, but you can do good work. And I do know topnotch work, I've bought it from 5 of the best gunsmith's in the world.... I have a benchmark. And if you find you don't have the knack, the lathe is still useful around the farm. A fun toy.




al


edit-edit-edit If you can afford a foot brake GET IT! Machinery is dan'rous.

skeetlee
05-03-2011, 06:51 AM
Al
Are the grizzly machines still advertised for the special intro price here? I cant seem to find anything. Thanks Lee

IndianaJames
05-03-2011, 07:59 AM
Skeet,

That special was years ago. I've got the G0509G...love it.

Jim

vickie
05-03-2011, 09:04 AM
Skeet the Grizzly 4003G is a belt drive, it's set up correctly IMO so that when you crash it it slips the belt instead of wiping out the gears.

False, it's a gear head.

Most all lathes use belts for the main drive from the motor to the headstock,Gear head is in refference to the how speeds are changed without having to move belts to different sized pulleys to get the desired speed.

No way to run the belts so loose to prevent damage in the event of a crash,I'd suggest work habits that avoid crashes.

alinwa
05-03-2011, 11:54 AM
False, it's a gear head.

Most all lathes use belts for the main drive from the motor to the headstock,Gear head is in refference to the how speeds are changed without having to move belts to different sized pulleys to get the desired speed.

No way to run the belts so loose to prevent damage in the event of a crash,I'd suggest work habits that avoid crashes.


Well Vickie, I've crashed mine twice, and it slipped the drive belts.

Sorry I'm not as good as you :)

al

Superman
05-03-2011, 11:27 PM
Lee,
I bought the Shop Fox version of the G4003G lathe and have been pleased with the purchase. Because I am a commercial customer, the Grizzly would not work for me. They are machines built and marketed to the hobbyist, not the guy that does it for a fee. When you start charging people you become a business, and there is no warranty on Grizzly products when used that way. For the home enthusiast, they feature a 1 yr warranty. The Shop Fox machine carries a 2 year warranty rather you use it for home use or for work. That to me makes it a wiser choice. They only offer the 12x36 Gunsmith lathe that I know of but it is made at the same place with the same tolerances as the Grizzly machine (Shiraz owns an interest in Shop Fox as well). I will eventually upgrade and buy a larger lathe one day but it wont be because this one isn't doing what I ask of it. I just finished a 7WSM for a friend and this is a 5 shot group with it at 100 yards:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/kgunz11/FGW%20Rifle%20Builds/Clarks7WSM.jpg

Don
05-03-2011, 11:36 PM
False, it's a gear head.

Most all lathes use belts for the main drive from the motor to the headstock,Gear head is in refference to the how speeds are changed without having to move belts to different sized pulleys to get the desired speed.

No way to run the belts so loose to prevent damage in the event of a crash,I'd suggest work habits that avoid crashes.

Almost all modern lathes, Grizzlys included, have a sacraficial synthetic gear somewhere on the outboard drive set to prevent excessive crash damage. Get an extra sacraficial gear if you think you will be prone to crash damage...............Ive had a spare for 20 years, never used..............Don

vickie
05-04-2011, 06:54 AM
"Almost all modern lathes, Grizzlys included, have a sacraficial synthetic gear somewhere on the outboard drive set to prevent excessive crash damage. Get an extra sacraficial gear if you think you will be prone to crash damage...............Ive had a spare for 20 years, never used..............Don"

The only sacrificial part I've ever seen is Brass shear pins for the lead screw and feed rod.
Lathes with plastic gears.........:rolleyes:

Shiraz Balolia
05-04-2011, 09:44 AM
Superman - damn fine group!! A one hole group that most people would love to have on any rifle, let alone a 7WSM.

Just a corrrection to your post - Grizzly machines are warranted for one year, whether used commercially or not. The only thing I suggest to people is to use common sense and buy the appropriate duty machine for how it is going to be used. Numerous larger production smiths use the G0509G, which is built like a tank and accurate to a tenth.

Superman
05-04-2011, 12:26 PM
Superman - damn fine group!! A one hole group that most people would love to have on any rifle, let alone a 7WSM.

Just a corrrection to your post - Grizzly machines are warranted for one year, whether used commercially or not. The only thing I suggest to people is to use common sense and buy the appropriate duty machine for how it is going to be used. Numerous larger production smiths use the G0509G, which is built like a tank and accurate to a tenth.

I stand corrected Sir. The information I posted was given to me by an employee of Shop Fox (Woodstock Intl.). Since there is in fact a warranty on the 0509, it might be my next purchase when I upgrade! Offering any discounts? LoL

pbike
05-07-2011, 08:36 AM
Lee,
I bought the Shop Fox version of the G4003G lathe and have been pleased with the purchase. Because I am a commercial customer, the Grizzly would not work for me. They are machines built and marketed to the hobbyist, not the guy that does it for a fee. When you start charging people you become a business, and there is no warranty on Grizzly products when used that way. For the home enthusiast, they feature a 1 yr warranty. The Shop Fox machine carries a 2 year warranty rather you use it for home use or for work. That to me makes it a wiser choice. They only offer the 12x36 Gunsmith lathe that I know of but it is made at the same place with the same tolerances as the Grizzly machine (Shiraz owns an interest in Shop Fox as well). I will eventually upgrade and buy a larger lathe one day but it wont be because this one isn't doing what I ask of it. I just finished a 7WSM for a friend and this is a 5 shot group with it at 100 yards:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/kgunz11/FGW%20Rifle%20Builds/Clarks7WSM.jpg

Winter must be officially OVER... And Cabin fever is gone until Navember...




Not yet has anyone asked to see the moving backer on that 5 shot group.

Paul

Superman
05-07-2011, 11:26 AM
Paul, maybe that's because most people, who have scored enough targets in their day, can look at the irregular shape of the group and tell it has 5 shots in it. You wanna bring your checkbook down to Georgia and tug on the BS flag? I've won a couple short range bench rest matches in rimfire and some long range matches in centerfire, so don't think I'm the FNG because I don't post a lot. The customer received the rifle on Wednesday. Picked it up from his FFL who also happens to have a range out back (I also sent him 150 rounds of ammo). There was a group of folks in the gun store at the time and they wanted to see it shoot. His first shot (CB) was a hit at 500 yards, the next 2 impacted just below it 2" apart. He then went to 800 yards and had 3 hits on a 12" plate. His last 3 shots were fired at 1125 yards. His first shot center mass on a man silhouette, and feeling a little cocky, he made the last 2 called head shots. He is an accomplished shooter and will hopefully win his 4th Allegheny Sniper Challenge with that rifle this weekend. Needless to say, his shooting outside the gun store resulted in a few more rifle orders for me.

Bobby Keigans
gunsmith/owner
Freedom Gunworks
Diablo Rifleworks

Hal
05-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Bobby

Sound like you did a great job of gunsmithing. Thats what it all comes down to is how well the rifle shoots.
Tell us a little more about the rifle and ammo.

Hal

Superman
05-07-2011, 01:03 PM
Hal,
The rifle is a 7WSM built on a trued Rem 700 action. The bbl is a 24" Broughton 5C 1:9 and the bullets are the new Hornady 162 BTHP match bullets. Brass is prepped Winchester 7WSM. The stock is a JP Chassis. Here's a pic of the rifle with the customers Horus Vision scope attached.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/kgunz11/FGW%20Rifle%20Builds/DSC_0158.jpg

Here's a photo of one of the local police officers I've been training in long range shooting. We did a load development on the rifle and fired a few across the PVM-21 chrono to get an accurate muzzle velocity. Plugged in all the barometrics and rifle/bullet data and went to the 1k range. We fired a few at 800, 900, and 1k getting data for the customer and then I let James (the PO) shoot the rifle. This was his first time shooting beyond 400 yards and using a reticle holding system (Horus) for engaging the target with me calling the holds to him. This is his first 3 shots ever fired at 1k, and with this rifle. He's smiling...
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/kgunz11/FGW%20Rifle%20Builds/James1000yards.jpg

Hal
05-07-2011, 11:27 PM
Bobby

Great looking rifle.

On rifles of this type, how do you order your reamers ?
Do you use a standard reamer or do you spec it to suit your needs ?
Something like a reamer ground to minimum specs, with the neck .003 over loaded ammo neck diameter ?
Hal

Superman
05-07-2011, 11:42 PM
For tactical style or long range hunting rifles, I specify minimum SAMMI spec on everything except the neck, I usually go a little less there. Also note that min SAMMI is still more than .003 over the other critical case dimensions. I want rifles that chamber rounds with ease, rather the customer is hand loading or feeding Fed GMM. It also helps when a die is slightly out of spec. I once had a Redding .260Rem die that wouldn't bump the shoulder back on fired rounds that had less than .002" headspace. I had to turn a little off the bottom of the die to get it to bump the shoulder back enough to chamber resized rounds.

skeetlee
05-08-2011, 07:08 AM
For what it is worth, i do know for a fact that my smith Jon Beanland has built several 7mm that will print one hole at 100 yards 3 shot groups. I have seen the targets and jon is as honest as the day is long. I think he uses a Jet lathe. I have no doubt that mans rifle will shoot that well. Now i just wish my shilen 6 dasher would. LOL!! Nice job!! By the way, I talked with some real fine folks yesterday about the grizzly lathe, and i am more than sure it will be our choice. The machine shop/ range building will be complete by july, so it wont be long and i will have my very own machine shop with two concrete shooting benches with a 200 yard view of a big old pile of dirt!! I cant hardly wait!! Lee

Superman
05-08-2011, 11:09 AM
Lee, that is a 5 shot group, not 3 that I posted above.
Let me also warn you that building rifles can be VERY dangerous. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but go slow, and have an experienced gunsmith watch over your shoulder for the first few. Enroll in the local tech school and start taking some machining classes. Have you applied for an FFL yet?

bigngreen
05-08-2011, 03:34 PM
I received a Grizzly flier this week and the 4003g is on sale. I've been swinging back and forth on the same two lathes but I'm going with the PM lathe. I know of a couple 4003g's that were in use and the owners would never own one again, multiple bearing and bushing failures and thread chatter also the one would not cut the correct thread pitch at 20TPI for Savages. I've talked two a couple guys that have had both and they prefer the PM. I think you can find it both ways, any lathe at this dollar level and size will likely be equal in people who like them and who hate them. I also like that I can have a DRO installed when it gets of the boat. Hopefully we'll see by fall.

JonathanK
05-08-2011, 07:01 PM
I bought the PM1236 and its been good so far, I had a couple little issues but they ere easy fixes. The backplate on the four jaw chuck ran out .020 (easy fix) and I had some issues with the steady coming loose(I tapped bigger set screws and put set screws on the back as well, once the brass inserts rounded out I havnt had an issue since) It came with all the tools to put it together and work on it, coolant system, light, quick change tool post and holders, and a lot more. You do have to change some gears to do certain threads(not ones Ive need yet) and you have to move the belts to different pullies to use some of gears(havent needed to yet). As far as dealing with the people I bought from they have been nice and always respond but I havent had any big issues yet. I have heard good and bad about both, and far as buying a cheaper Chinese machine its kinda like rolling the dice IMO.
Jonathan Kuykendall

Shiraz Balolia
05-09-2011, 11:32 AM
[QUOTE=bigngreen;627445]........also the one would not cut the correct thread pitch at 20TPI for Savages.[QUOTE]

I don't know which lathe the person you spoke with has, but all three of our gunsmithing models can cut the 20 T.P.I thread. See attachment:

SGS
05-09-2011, 08:29 PM
Shiraz,

I'm a little confused about the chart for the G4003G. Some of the thread pitches call for "N", some for "ANY", and some for "ALL". What indicator dial numbers should a person use for 18TPI? Assuming that the "N" stands for "non numbered position" what is the difference between "ANY" and "ALL"?

Scott Roeder

eddief
05-09-2011, 09:01 PM
Bobby,

How many barrels have you chambered now? From the target it looks like you're doing a good job. Gordy's a great teacher!

bigngreen
05-09-2011, 09:48 PM
[QUOTE=bigngreen;627445]........also the one would not cut the correct thread pitch at 20TPI for Savages.[QUOTE]

I don't know which lathe the person you spoke with has, but all three of our gunsmithing models can cut the 20 T.P.I thread. See attachment:

The particular lathe mechanically would not cut 20 tpi when set the same as another machine that reportedly did cut 20tpi.

Chisolm
05-10-2011, 12:23 AM
The particular lathe mechanically would not cut 20 tpi when set correctly, the same as another one in fact, it was a 4003g.
That sounds very odd, I have chambered a few Savage barrels on my G4003G all with no issues.

James

Shiraz Balolia
05-10-2011, 10:27 AM
Shiraz,

I'm a little confused about the chart for the G4003G. Some of the thread pitches call for "N", some for "ANY", and some for "ALL". What indicator dial numbers should a person use for 18TPI? Assuming that the "N" stands for "non numbered position" what is the difference between "ANY" and "ALL"?

Scott Roeder

Scott - from our instruction manual:

Shiraz Balolia
05-10-2011, 10:31 AM
The particular lathe mechanically would not cut 20 tpi when set correctly, the same as another one in fact, it was a 4003g.

Bigngreen - could you PM me the names of these two individuals so I can look into the notes in our system to see if this was a reported problem. A quick discussion with a couple of our engineers here, who would deal with these types of problems, indicated that they were not aware of an issue such as this. Thanks.

Superman
05-11-2011, 12:24 AM
Scott - from our instruction manual:

A common practice is to always engage on the number 1 on the thread dial as it is the universal number good for any of the threads. Always use #1 and you should be good to go.

Superman
05-11-2011, 12:37 AM
Bobby,

How many barrels have you chambered now? From the target it looks like you're doing a good job. Gordy's a great teacher!

Hiya Eddie! You giving Karl a run for his money with those 6mm's yet?
How many barrels...hmmmm... do pistol barrels count too? If so, a blue bazillion. Just rifle barrels, not enough to claim to be an expert.
That 7WSM I built for Clark did in fact prove to be a performer this passed weekend at the Allegheny Sniper Challenge. He bested some excellent alumni to bring in the winning score.

This is a little OT, but here is my thoughts on machines. You'll often hear it's the operator, not the machine. Now I don't claim to be a master machinist, but I've learned on these machines and I'm holding myself to a pretty high standard. I don't know if this is going to make much sense, but I never knew I couldn't do quality work on my 12x36 ShopFox machine, so that's all I've done. Momma always told me there wasn't nothing I couldn't do, and she has always been right thus far, got no reason to doubt her. So when I got my little lathe set up and broken in, I started making chips. Fortunately I have some pretty accomplished machinists in the next big town over so I have someone to check my work. I did install a DRO on my machine and I think it offers a considerable amount of aid. So not knowing I couldn't do good work on my machine, I've just been doing it. If I'd spent much time reading what the naysayers have said I'd probably be doing some crappy machining and would have quit long ago. My friend that's been building rifles full time for about 8 years now said I just have a knack for it. I can say this much, building a rifle is much more enjoyable, and IMO much easier than the full blown custom pistol builds I've been doing.

Steelhead1
05-11-2011, 10:56 AM
Skeet,
Just got the spring flyer from Grizzly yesterday and that lathe is on sale for $100.00 less than usual!

SGS
05-12-2011, 01:04 AM
Scott - from our instruction manual:

Thanks, Shiraz. I have tried to explain to a number of folks that the old rules for American lathes do not apply to the Imports and each model may be different.

Scott Roeder