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View Full Version : Ok experts.. need some help with weight!!!



Ackley Improved
04-17-2011, 06:08 AM
I have this plan.. not ideal but it suits my needs where I can not warrant two seperate rifles.

I want the one rifle to shoot 100/200yds and 500m/1000yds, so switch barrel is the word!!!

Idea, 10.5lb LV 6ppc, butt weight added to take it to 13.5lb HV class. Barrel switched to a 26" BR improved, butt weight still added.

The scope I want to use is the 10-60 March... at 25oz.

I think I might struggle to make the 10.5lb class with the March.

Also, for switch barrel rifle, integrated recoil lug in action is the go right?

Components looking at are...

BAT SB mulfi-flat dual port ppc/BR bolface
Kelbly Klub with butt weight
March 10-60

I guess it can be done, but barrel size/length will be the sacrifice.

What you guys think? I have shot a 6mmDasher in a short range BR stock, was ok!!

Cheers

Ackley Improved
04-17-2011, 12:27 PM
Should ask.. how many guys are running 10-60 March scope on 10.5lb rifles? What contour and length was the result for the barrel?

You think what I am ding is feasible?

Cheers

Charles E
04-17-2011, 01:03 PM
Idea, 10.5lb LV 6ppc, butt weight added to take it to 13.5lb HV class. Barrel switched to a 26" BR improved, butt weight still added.You're going to have quite a time adding 3 pounds in the butt of a Klub stock. I had a Kelbly weight system on a rifle using their earlier stock (larger butt), and they only were adding 2 pounds.

BTW, it worked fine, as long as I moved the front rest back on the forearm (towards the butt) in the HG configuration. In fact, it shot better as a 12.5 rifle, probably because of where the rest was located on the stock at that weight.


The scope I want to use is the 10-60 March... at 25oz.

Think of it this way. There are a lot of 10.5 pound rifles built around the new Leupold competition scope. I forget what they weigh, but you're adding 8-10 ounces over that. I'm not sure how many of these are built around the BAT SB, though. The SB14OCT comes in at 34.5 ounces, a Viper is 30 ounces. So you've maybe another 4 ounces to make up.

It will all have to come out of the barrel. 416 stainless weighs between .25 to .29 pounds per cubic inch, so you can figure out what to take off where.


Also, for switch barrel rifle, integrated recoil lug in action is the go right? With my BATs, I've always used the rear of the tang as a lug, even with chamberings as big as a 6.5/06 AI, shooting 150 grain bullets.

Where you might run into trouble is setting up the long-range rifle, after designing (and compromising) for the 10.5 rifle. You won't get enough weight IN the butt to balance it. But if you can add weight TO the butt, it might fly.

Boyd Allen
04-17-2011, 05:52 PM
There is some thought out there, that for the best accuracy, a HV should not just be a LV with a heavier barrel and some weight in the butt, that it should be a "ground up" heavy, with the extra weight distributed throughout. If you look at how many shooters are competing with a 10.5# 6PPC for all the bag gun classes, including HV, and how they do in the various matches that they compete in, it seems to me that there is little evidence that the extra 3# is a real advantage. On the other hand, with the extra recoil of heavier long range bullets, and the balance complication that is introduced by a longer barrel, some weight in the butt may be unavoidable...at least enough to put enough weight on the rear bag, if you are planning on shooting free recoil. If you are going to hold the rifle, I am not sure that balance is even an issue. As far as balance goes, I now look at weight on the rear bag, and not just where the rifle will balance as a whole. The reason is that the weight on the rear bag is heavily effected by bag placement on the stock.

Ackley Improved
04-17-2011, 10:55 PM
Yes, a Panda or a Viper would be a better proposal. Starting with a 30oz action over a 34.5 would be a smart idea.

Next question... a drop port would be great, chances of one pulling both the russian and BR cases? If not, Panda eject both? I do not want to turn down case heads either!!

The 45X Leupold is at 20.3oz from their website. March is 25oz.

Another idea is this. Have the rifle set at a 10.5lb PPC. No change for 13.5LB. When barrel change happens to a 26" Dasher, then a removable weight is added.

I did have a Dasher built on a Klub a while back. The barrel was 28" and heavy. 2.5lbs was added to the butt. It shot well with a small bit of thumb pressure on the tang.

It is starting to look achievable, just which action to choose!

Real reason this idea has come about is my employment. I work shift and a rotating roster. I miss shoots, and cant warrant having a dedicated rifle to each comp. If I can get away with one rifle and another barrel, then thats ok!

Cheers

seblambang
04-18-2011, 05:41 AM
AI,
I'm not an expert at all....but hey, I have the same "one rifle to shoot both 100/200 and 500-1000yds", switch barrels, like yours!
I know it's not ideal but I don't want to spend much money for 2 complete rifles.
The barrels are done, just the stock (myself). "D.K." is the gunsmith, you must know him.

The action is a Panda wtih .473 bolt face... will use it both for LV/HV short range (=6ppc) and the Fly/Fclass (=.284win), in Oz.
I don't think a drop port can be used both for .284 & PPC....but maybe (99%?) for smaller rounds "combination" such as BR & PPC.

Thought the numbers might help you:
Action Stolle Panda + bolt .473 face + Jewell trigger + guard + 2 (spare) screws..... 34 oz (965 grams)
6ppc barrel, 21.5", Krieger LV contour, no tuner............................................. .... 79.2 oz (2,245 grams)
284win barrel, 30", Maddco "1 1/4" taper............................................. ............ 141.15 oz (4,000 grams)

Barreled action in PPC......... 113.2 oz (3,210 grams)... = 54.8 oz left max. for scope & rings & stock, for LV (10.5 lbs/168oz)*
Barreled action in .284win.... 175.2 oz (4.965 grams)... = 88.8 oz left for scope & rings & stock, for Light Gun (17.0 lbs/264oz)*
*Must have at least 1 oz left/spare, totally.

Scope weight: (I would like to get one scope for both matches)
March EP zoom 36-55......... 22.2 oz (630 grams)
March 10-60..................... 24.7 oz (700 grams)
March 40/50/60 fix............. 20.8 oz (590 grams)
Leupold 45/50................... 20.3 oz (576 grams)

Rings double screws, 30mm.... 3.03 oz (85.9 grams).

--------------

From those numbers, stock (+glue in) should be no more than 28 oz (under 800 grams). I believe most LV/short range stocks in the market will fit.
My concern is to make a stock that suits both for the ppc & .284. It must be a "hybrid" between a bench stock & prone, with weight system, additional wide forearm (6"-8") for the Fly, and probably additional cheek piece for prone. This maybe the most difficult part because of the requirement. It must balance & tracks well both for the LV and Flyshoot/F-class. But I think I can make it.
I was thinking to make 2 stocks (by screw in, or barrel block) before this, but I believe "one stock suits all" would be more better/more practical for me. (for easier barrel switch and not too many-take space stuffs). I have the model in my mind & some rough drafts, just the time to make it. I might probably make the rings myself too...weight still allow will make the base (15-20 MOA) from one solid alum billet. The ppc barrel can be (re)cut to 21" or so, if really necessary.
No weight problem for the long range, I still have about 2 lbs remain for LG. I might probably compete in HG with it, too.

--------------

Quote: "Also, for switch barrel rifle, integrated recoil lug in action is the go right?"
Why?...I might be wrong here, but recoil lug has nothing to do with switching barrel in my opinion?
Recoil concern?... 6BR/dasher are much smaller than .284/30.06 also.
I just built a .308 rifle myself (a repeater, screw in, the action is made from a round blank receiver from Gary Breiling, bolt body is PTG), it doesn't has a recoil lug or any cut-out on the bottom to act as recoil lug but it shoots fine with no recoil issue. I only make the stock stronger around the tang area + two alum pillars & epoxy bedding.


Quote: "................ I guess it can be done, but barrel size/length will be the sacrifice."
In this case I think you better check the total weight of the components you would use for the LV short range, then determine the barrel weight/length. (Mine has different approach, the stock weight is determined, to be in the maximum weight & rigidity, after the exact barreled action weight is known).
Stock with (extra) long forearm maybe the ticket for your purpose.

Cheers,
seb.

expiper
04-18-2011, 10:14 AM
111061110411104I would use a Kodiak action...it is a cupla 0z. lighter than a Panda and has an integral recoil lug (thePanda F-clas has one too ...but other Pandas without lug work well when switching bbls. and as stated no lug is necessary) plus integral 20 MOA rail (dont hav to add one -saves wt.!!)...plus the static ejector works as good or better than the M-1 type....and ulilke a drop port action you are not limited to PPC/BR length cases so you culd use true .308/284 length cases,,,,,,I just change from short bbls for 10.5 lb class to big/longer for 600/1000yd work....be shure to use a Klub or BR/FB or equal--the long forearm is helpful when a 29" HV contour bbl. is installed) the LG doesnt hav to weigh 17 lb to shoot competitevly...mine is around 14lb...by shooting 6mm's not mags/284's/etc recoil is tollerable and the gun is lite enuff for me to carry easily,and 6mm's dont require a brake so it is legal in F-class also....Roger

Boyd Allen
04-18-2011, 12:25 PM
I believe that I have read that drop ports have been built to pull both the PPC and BR cases. You might want to give Stiller a call.

seblambang
04-19-2011, 02:51 AM
AI,
I just looked at Kelbly's Klub stock in their website. It has extra long (the longest) forearm available, weighs at 1 lb 8 oz (680 grams). I think it's a GREAT choice!

With a LV contour at 21.5" to 22" finish cut, I believe you still can make weight (under 10.5 lbs) using a March 10-60X. -- Assuming the action+trigger+guard weight approximately/no more than 34 oz, scope+rings 28 oz max, stock 24 oz.
With a 21.5" barrel (79.2 oz, say to 80 oz), it will be approx. 166 oz.... from the maximum 168 oz allowed, it's still "more than safe". Epoxy glue when dried/cured is just about 0.3 oz, mirage shield (if used) about 0.4 oz. IF the rule for schale allows 1 oz tolerance (means up to 169 oz?), even at 22" it will still fit. But if I were you, I will ask the smith to cut the ppc barrel at 21.5", or 21.75" max.
With other scopes such as the EP zoom, or the fix 50x, you even have "more room"...

Hope to meet you & see your rifle at Harry Madden C/ship next Nov.

Good luck,
seb.

Ackley Improved
04-19-2011, 07:25 AM
Cool.. good info here!

Seb.. I wont be making it to the Harry Madden... no chance to have a rifle ready, plus time off. One day we'll meet up.

Kodiak or the Cobra is the go.. 28oz will make it possible. drop port working with PPC/BR cases would be great.

Cheers

seblambang
04-19-2011, 09:34 AM
Cool.. good info here!

.... drop port working with PPC/BR cases would be great.

Cheers

I'm not a scientist or mechanic or a true gunsmith.... but theoritically & technically it can. -- using .473" bolt face with proper extractor & clearance. Aprroximately .441" vs .473" head.... 1.503" vs 1.560" long... no big difference between them in size. Your custom action wouldn't be like an old Mauser, your chamber would also be "tight" (right term?). It wouldn't have to be long also and no worry about cartridge falling down or have to insert the round very forward to the chamber, etc.
Only used a drop port once, but I bet that Mr. Stiller will agree on this.
Cheers,
seb.

AI, you can use my rifle if you want / if you would like to come. I will be shooting the short range LV/HV and the Fly 500m the next day. Let me know.