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DanB
03-22-2011, 08:27 PM
Do you find that your air rifle responds to barrel tuning in the same way as your rimfire?
Thanks,
Dan

Bill Collaros
03-22-2011, 08:41 PM
Never tried Dan but it's a good question. Do the USA shooters put tuners on their air rifles?

The gear you guys have leaves our for dead, we shoot factory rilfes and there are no custom ones competing down here that i have seen as yet. Looking at Joe Fredricks set up of rifle and rest i think he will easily win best dressed at the World Champs :)

lead head
03-23-2011, 07:55 AM
Dan
I've never compared the two but it will respond. I'm testing a proto-type Harrell at the present time and I'm having some luck with it. The wind has been blowing here for so long that I have to wait until late in the evening to test anything and then the peskie little blood sucking bugs get after me.
I have found out so far that it will close the group up and also move the point of impact. I have also found out that while most of the pellets that we shoot are good we are still at the mercy of the makes. I'm testing some new pellets right now along wiht some new lube.
If you want to talk to some one else about tuners contact Frank Tirrell at frank@franktirrell.com or1-903-734-3667. Frank lives and breathes benchrest air rifles. He also builds a mid barrel tuner that seem to work really well for him.

Good Luck
Larry B

Joe Friedrich
03-23-2011, 04:14 PM
Dan,

That is a good question. I did try one of those small Harrel's tuner for those skinny barrels but didn't give it enough time to evaluate. Since I'm using larger OD barrels, I can fit any tuner that I have from 2oz on up. Since we are all trying to get the most out of these rifles we can, trying one wouldn't hurt.

Regards,
Joe

PS,Bill, since I can't shoot, at least I''ll look good trying.

Bill Collaros
03-23-2011, 05:51 PM
This is interesting i didnt think there was enough kick and recoil in these air rifles to warrant a tuner but as Joe says it's worth a try.

Joe Friedrich
03-23-2011, 06:26 PM
Bill,

At the energy we are allowed to comply within the rules you are correct, there isn't any recoil but there are still vibrations going on, you can't see it but I can feel it through the trigger on my Theoben which I'm addressing. Turn the power up on these .22's you will notice some movement if one shoots completely free recoil. If your setup is not correct you may even notice some torque.

Regards,
Joe

DanB
03-23-2011, 08:47 PM
Thanks for replies all. It is difficult to evaluate the results while shooting outside, the difference a tuner makes seems small. What I need is a tunnel.
Dan

Joe Friedrich
03-23-2011, 09:26 PM
Dan,

Every small amount you can get is a plus. I do use a tuner with bloop tube. Finding what works takes time. The barrel dampener has been removed but I'm also using rim-fire barrels, which in itself is different. A tunnel would be nice. I've been pondering about building a 50m tunnel for some time.

Regards,
Joe

DanB
03-23-2011, 10:03 PM
If you don't mind me asking, what is the bore diameter of your barrel and twist rate? I would have thought that a rimfire barrel would be too large for airguns. My best barrel so far, several 250s, has a 1:16 twist and a bore of about .215".
Dan


Dan,

Every small amount you can get is a plus. I do use a tuner with bloop tube. Finding what works takes time. The barrel dampener has been removed but I'm also using rim-fire barrels, which in itself is different. A tunnel would be nice. I've been pondering about building a 50m tunnel for some time.

Regards,
Joe

Joe Friedrich
03-23-2011, 10:33 PM
Dan,

At muzzle .216, we thought the same. Hopefully other barrel manufactures will get involved. I have no clue if we are heading in the right direction, but I'm willing to take that risk. Maybe why the tuner and tube help. It's a 1:16.7 LD's barrels I will assume are in the .215 range.

Regards,
Joe

21grains
03-23-2011, 11:01 PM
Dan Pick up Airgun World.Airstripper-tuner I think this is what You need. I'll bring My copy Sat. to Pinn. Mt......Franky

therealld
03-24-2011, 02:28 AM
Not bein a rimfire shooter, I guess my eperience with tuners don't account fer much.

Joe Friedrich
03-24-2011, 03:35 AM
Larry,

don't know much either, still don't understand them. Just guessing in the wind.

Dave Shattuck
03-24-2011, 06:56 AM
I too have one of Lynnwood's prototype tuners, but really didn't get working with it until this past month after being able to get back into my barn. Even though the barn isn't totally breeze tight, and is only 23+Y long, it has still shown a lot, enough so that I can tell you these tuners definitely have a positive affect on accuracy, but still need to be refined as they now resemble what we are using on our rimfires a little too closely.

In my opinion, what we need is an adjustable tuner like the ones we use on our rimfires combined with an Air Stripper system similar to the ones Franky referred to in this months issue of Airgun World, and in fact have already been in contact with Neil Price who builds the ones shown in the magazine.

In my minds eye I can see what I think will work best, but will have to sit down now with DanB, plus talk with both Carl Boswell and Neil Price, and a few others, before getting one to the point of being ready for the barrel. If what I feel will happen indeed does happen, then I think we are going to see airgun accuracy improve to a point where they become capable of stacking one shot right on top of the next, shot after shot, time and time again, rather than just having it only happen in our dreams.

I'll keep you posted as I go along.

Dave Shattuck

Bill Collaros
03-24-2011, 08:57 AM
Joe will you or other USA guys use a different air rifle for the 2 classes @ WRABF World Champs ?

Joe Friedrich
03-24-2011, 07:41 PM
Dave,

There's no question a tuner, stipper of some kind will benefit heck even a mid- barrel. Now I don't know about stacking one holers outside time after time, but it's a great goal to arrive at.

Bill,

I don't know what others are doing, I will be using 2 rifles. Been lucky with the EV 2, it has been shooting great out of the box, how long will it last don't know, been busy getting the other rifle shooting the way I want it. Time is flying bye and wish there was more of it, it's been a good challenge so far and lots of fun, especially when you have things clicking right.

Regards,
Joe

Bill Collaros
03-25-2011, 12:33 AM
Team AUS will also be bringing 2 EV2's as we are very happy with them, will shoot them in both classes as there is only so many rifles we can bring across and have to also bring our rimfires.

Wouldn't mind shooting your heavier custom gun on the Pappas rest in the AIR HV if it's available though Joe :)

cris
03-25-2011, 12:21 PM
I am sure Lynwood would be interested in a air stripper version of his air rifle tuner prototype.

Dave Shattuck
03-25-2011, 09:44 PM
And Lynnwood may well see one as soon as it is put together. I'm not sure how much he's into Air Strippers though, so that may be a whole new concept for him to grasp. But, there's no doubt he understands the Tuner thing inside and out as his is the one that all other muzzle attached Tuners are based on, plus what he put together as a prototype for airguns sure does work well for what it is, it just needs a way to take the turbulence out from behind the pellet as it's leaving the bore ...and that's what I'm trying to figure the best way for him to combine the two without taking away from either one. I'll let you know when it happens, that is if I'm the one who gets there before you do. Doesn't matter though because airgunning will immediately take a huge step forward once it happens.

Man, do I wish I owned a lathe because with what I've got in my minds eye I feel that if I did own one, this would all be a mute point. Oh well!

Dave

cris
03-26-2011, 07:46 AM
Dave,

Hope your wife is doing better.

Draw a picture, put what is in your mind's eye on paper and send it to Lynwood. This is how progress is made.

carlb
03-26-2011, 06:18 PM
With air rifles there area number of ways you can potentially tune the barrel.

Some have a grub screw on the barrel band to apply compression to the barrel restricting movement - although this has potential issues.

A number have barrel weights as accessories - these can be applied as a mid barrel tuner.

A number also have bloop tube type extensions that do add a non adjustable weight to the muzzle.

There are a number of air strippers out there, some very similar to one another. They are still up there with the 6 o'clock firing pin. Some believe they work and some do not.

It depends on what your thoughts are. However, the main manufacturers have little interest in developing anything for air rifle - at the moment.

The upcoming WC is a real chance to show them the sport is taking off and they will be looking at the USA as you guys offer a very big market. The more noise we make the better.

Joe Friedrich
03-26-2011, 07:29 PM
you are more than welcome to try my rifle during practice.

Carl, I guarantee there will be a lot of noise coming out of these rifles when fired.:D
I also agree in your assessment.

Regards,

Joe

Bill Collaros
03-26-2011, 07:53 PM
Interesting times, it seems there is more to the air rifles than everyone thought. Thanks Joe c u at the range.

carlb
03-26-2011, 08:29 PM
With air rifles there area number of ways you can potentially tune the barrel.

Some have a grub screw on the barrel band to apply compression to the barrel restricting movement - although this has potential issues.

A number have barrel weights as accessories - these can be applied as a mid barrel tuner.

A number also have bloop tube type extensions that do add a non adjustable weight to the muzzle.

There are a number of air strippers out there, some very similar to one another. They are still up there with the 6 o'clock firing pin. Some believe they work and some do not.

It depends on what your thoughts are. However, the main manufacturers have little interest in developing anything for air rifle - at the moment.

The upcoming WC is a real chance to show them the sport is taking off and they will be looking at the USA as you guys offer a very big market. The more noise we make the better.

carlb
03-28-2011, 05:53 PM
Hi Dave - sorry to hear your wife is ill. Hope she is better and talk soon. Carl

blades
03-29-2011, 10:04 AM
It might be wise to look at the current crop of Olympic grade air pistols. For several years now the barrels are ported ahead of the pellet exit point. There is very little pressure left at the time of exit. This is in addition the the compensator at the muzzle which serves to further relieve/ deflect residual pressure . I do not have my FWB p40 here at the shop or I would post a pic, this is apx 7 ft lb ( 500-600 fps) unit ( cal .177). The idea behind the 2 sections is to have no air pressure influencing the pellet's trajectory. As yet I have not seen this applied to the Olympic rifles likely due to the longer barrel and the low 7ft lb (500-600 fps , cal .177 8.5gr) power. Jumping to the 12ft lb and higher levels I would think applying this system might be advantageous. The thought that there might be a problem arising from air turbulence upsetting the trajectory of the pellet at the time of exit has been around for a long time although I have never read any proof positive. I am not up to speed on the latest tech stuff Olympic wise as I have been out of that loop a considerable amount of time.

DanB
03-29-2011, 11:00 AM
People seem to think the only turbulence comes from the air propelling the pellet from behind. What about the air in the barrel that is accelerated ahead of the pellet? For a 24" .22 barrel that is about 14ccs of air that is rushing out the barrel ahead of the pellet.
Dan

blades
03-29-2011, 03:06 PM
To DanB, referring to my post, the ports in the barrel would reduce that resistance a bit. As the air ahead of the pellet is uniform and exits the barrel prior to the pellet, I would think that it has little or no influence on the trajectory. Now on the other hand 2600 psi behind the pellet rushing past it just as the trailing edge of the skirt clears the muzzle in conjunction with the light weight of the projectile and its relatively low velocity could cause an effect, given that nothing is absolutely perfect. We already know the effect a poorly formed skirt, or improper fit of pellet to bore will have.

therealld
03-30-2011, 11:28 PM
Its a reason I prefer to have the muzzle pressure under half of what you are citing. and I'm kinda partial to strippers.

Bill Collaros
03-31-2011, 08:37 AM
Today the WRABF Secretary requested all Team Captains supply their Countries Flag & Anthem, what an honour and incredible feeling it would be to see your National Flag and hear your National Anthem while you get a Gold Medal at a World Championship from a sport you love.

Dave Shattuck
03-31-2011, 04:57 PM
Great news about the playing of the National Anthem while flags are blowing in the breeze for the winning countries, Bill.

The wife is doing better Carl, and thanks for asking.

As for releasing the bore pressure both before and after the pellet: I would thing that by porting the barrel for the last couple of inches using very small holes drilled at an angle back into the barrel could prove to be very advantageous if done right, but I also think you'll find that you still need the addition of a stripper. And I feel strongly that you will find it necessary to be able to also be able to tune the harmonics out of the barrel before the optimum accuracy level for any gun will be found. Haven't done anything yet about the porting, but am working on the stripper/tuner combination and think I may have a solution. Plan to talk with my contact tomorrow to run everything by him, then see if he'll make what I have in mind.

Dave

carlb
03-31-2011, 05:46 PM
Good news Dave - keep her fit.

Funny you should be saying this as I have just got off the phone with a guy that made my air stripper - his does most of his work for FT and HFT, but has agreed to make a prototype based on the one I have produced to test over the coming months. A combination of three ideas.

For me he makes one of the best air strippers out there that works - hopefully good news to follow.

Dave Shattuck
04-01-2011, 05:24 AM
Carl,

He's probably the same fellow I'm contacting if it's the guy you had sent me all the info on. Small World! Maybe he can combine your thoughts with mine and come up with something truly amazing.

Dave