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Slowshot
03-10-2011, 01:40 AM
As some of you may know, I am a disabled shooter, able only to shoot left handed off a bipod or a rest. While I mostly shoot rimfire, I do enjoy hand loading and load development in centerfire rifles. Having taken a serious look at what is needed to compete with you guys, I decided to skip the competition and just enjoy unusual centerfire rifles in unusual cartridges.

Until recently, my only centerfire rifles have been a Winchester 100 in 243 Winchester and a Ruger No. 1 Varmint in 220 Swift. The 243 is long gone. Now I have decided to give up some speed and energy for a milder cartridge that is a bit more accurate at 100-200 yards, so I have put my Ruger up for sale. My friendly gunsmith (Tim) has suggested I look into the 222 Remington.

In my research, I have read a lot that is good and nothing negative about the cartridge. One reviewer claimed that it is the most accurate .224 caliber cartridge other than the 22 PPC. Another claimed while the 220 Swift is still king of long range .224s, the 222 Remington it is the most accurate medium range varmint round ever.

I have also found that Cooper makes a left handed single shot bolt action rifle in 222 Remington.

http://www.cooperfirearms.com/rifles.php?rifle_name=vr&cal=222-Rem

So my questions are: Do any of you have personal experience with this cartridge? If so, what comments can you make about it? Do you still own a rifle in 222 Remington? If not, why did you let it go?

AndyTaber
03-10-2011, 05:54 AM
I can't respond to the .222, but one of the other fella's that I shoot with; short range benchrest at the club level has that very same rifle in .223. I can tell you he does VERY well with it. The rifle shoots awesome. One consideration might be that .223 brass is more plentiful. I do think you would do well with either caliber. Hope that helps.

Andy

LHSmith
03-10-2011, 10:07 AM
I still compete, on occasion, in BR (score) with a .222, a Rem. 700 built for HV competition. It is a super cartridge, very low recoil, very accurate, easy to load for, not as expensive to shoot as my 6 PPC or 30 BR. I basically built it for nostalgic reasons, it was my "go to" groundhog cartridge back in the good ol' days. I usually shoot 2- guns at the matches and knowing that it doesn't have quite the agging capability of my larger bores, I basically use it to compete with another regular shooter who attends our local matches who has several .222's in 40-xb's. It consistantly shoots nice tiny round groups......just not quite as tiny as my larger bore counterparts.
Coopers are nice and shoot well, but if you want to get that very last bit of accuracy potential out of the duece, I would look for a used bench gun that has a proven history, an aftermarket barrel in a heavy contour, has a wide- flat fore-end, and a match trigger. Also, I would invest in a quality rest system, of which you won't find at Cabelas or even Midway. Also a quality high magnification scope.And lastly, flags are a MUST , bought or homemade.
Forgot to mention that barrel life is forever, and that the reason your smith probably recommended it , is that it was "THE" BR cartridge in the '50's through early '70's. The .222 Magnum also was used with some success, however, the .223 was seldom (if ever) mentioned as a frequent winner in earlier days of Benchrest. There were also several wildcats based on the .222 case that were also in the winners circle, but I believe none incorporated the short neck of the .223.

Gunner223
03-10-2011, 10:50 AM
Slow, Way back in the early days of Mike Walker, everyone had to have a 222. I was in the retail gun business at the time and was a Sako Distributor so naturally I had Sako rifles. I had several 222 rifles and the all shot very well. The 222 is an accurate cartridge too be sure. As I recall 23.5 grains of Hodgdon Bl-c and a 50 or 52 grain bullet was magic. That combination accounted for many many heart failures in various coyotes and ground squirrels. As the newer stuff came out the 222 Mag replaced the 222 and now the .223 has taken over the slots in my gun rack. 222, 222 Mag and 223 all shoot very well and as a previous poster says, 223 brass is much easier to obtain. Depending on how much you are going to shoot, quanaity of brass may or amay not be a concern.

Hope this helps.

Don Carper

Boyd Allen
03-10-2011, 10:54 AM
A couple of things....
I am not familiar with your limitations, but I can speak to shooting left handed (dominant eye) and from the bench, or a bipod, IMO, a right handed action is better. Also, the .222 is a fine cartridge, but if you were to change your mind about competition, the 6PPC has an edge, especially at 200. The fellow that brought up the .223 is right. I think that if one is built to the same standards as a good .222 that it would be a good choice for informal bench shooting. To have the best time, shooting from the bench, I would choose something that will take a Remington trigger. The aftermarket selection is the best for that design, and a light trigger is important for the best shooting from the bench, as are a properly designed stock, and wind flags. Good luck with your project.

mojo2138
03-10-2011, 11:12 AM
I still like the 222 (Deuce) for bench shooting although I am now playing with the 22PPC-100.

My best load for accuracy and reasonably good speed was:

20.2 gr. H4198
Rem 7 1/2 primer
Cheek or Bart's 52 gr. flatbase hollow point matchbullet
Lapua case


The Rem. primer seemed to be more consistent in lighting off the longer powder column. It is a small case so REMEMBER to start with at least a half grain smaller and work up and any change in components can cause a pressure rise.

Good Shooting!
Joe

Harold M
03-10-2011, 05:05 PM
I have a 722 deuce with a Hart barrel with a 14-3/4" twist (my measurement). I had it chambered by Hart RB Co. to a standard SAAMI chamber (no neck turn). It has a Jewell trigger and is in an HS Precision bendhrest stock. I shot my first zero group with this rifle with now-extinct Starke 52 grain bullets and 19 grains of IMR-4198. It fits the bags I use with my 6ppc, but I don't compete with it. The physics of the situation put this rig at a disadvantage against the 6 ppc in all regards except for the distance it recoils before the bullet exits. Since Remington does make a left handed 700, there is nothing that stands in the way of building a near mirror image of my rifle.

Harold

Alan Schenck
03-10-2011, 08:30 PM
222's are great little cartridges, I currently have two of them. One is a pristine 40 xbr and the other is a sleeved 700 Rem. The Rem is at the gunsmith now getting a new barrel as the old one had over 6000 rounds through it and was showing signs of it's age. The best groups I ever shot were with this gun. I have a custom 6 ppc - Stole action, kreiger barrel, Mcmillan stock ans Jewel trigger. Also a 700 Rem in 6 ppc.., a 722 in 6 BR and a custom 223. The 222's will shoot with them all and better some of the time. Try 22gr of H 322 with any good 52 gr bullet. I prefer 205m primers and Lapua brass. People say that they arn't competitive but I think you can have a lot of fun with them. Al.

Bill Wynne
03-10-2011, 09:19 PM
When I was about 17 an adult friend of mine had a little Sako 222 that he let me shoot at our club turkey shoot. I won three turkeys and my mother paid for my shooting. That was the best shooting rifle I have ever had in my hands before or since. I am now older retired and If I ever see one of those little Sako rifles again I will buy it.

Concho Bill

Travelor
03-11-2011, 08:15 AM
My first center fire rifle to own and reload for was a Savage 340 in 222 Remington. Since then I have had other 222's and have loved them all. What a great cartridge!!!

My "go to" load was 19.5 of H4198 and a Sierra 52 gr MatchKing. Also the Sierra Blitz 50 grain bullet is "the" bullet I have used for critters due to its thin jacket precluding most ricochets. You will love the 222 Remington. It has a wonderful history of excellent accuracy.

George

Slowshot
03-15-2011, 03:02 AM
Thank you all for the advice and encouragement. There is no function with my right hand or arm that is of any use with firearms. I shoot left handed by necessity and shooting with a right handed bolt, while possible, is very awkward for me. I cannot hold up a rifle, while shooting and must support the rifle with either a bipod or a front rest. On Rimfire Central, I am known as "onearm". While that is a bit of exaggeration, for the purpose of shooting, I essentially have only one arm. Unfortunately for me, it is the left arm that works properly.
I have an excellent front rest set up. It is a Shadetree Engineering top on a Hart base. I use it with a Protektor rear bag for most shooting and all point shooting. Sometimes, just for a change I use a Harris bipod with my varmint rifles. I also have a Hart Varmint top that I use when group shooting.
I am not really interested in 223. Because I hand load, I can keep the expense of other centerfire cartridges reasonable. I have been hand loading for my 220 Swift for quite a while and can get decent results for about 30 cents a round and excellent results for 43 cents a round.
If I could find a decent used left handed rifle in 222, I would buy it. The stock is not really important as I would either modify it for benchrest shooting or buy a benchrest stock for it anyhow. I have a CZ that I use for light sporter 22 LR shooting. Don Stith made a great benchrest stock for it out of sassafras and redwood. I would do something like that for any used gun.

roninflag
03-21-2011, 04:41 PM
i have three .222s; including one sako. they shoot real good. they all have factory barrels. if a i rebarreled one of the remingtons i would have a real shooter though. the 6ppc is better though for benchrest. i would rather have a 6ppc than the 222s.

Slowshot
03-21-2011, 08:52 PM
i have three .222s; including one sako. they shoot real good. they all have factory barrels. if a i rebarreled one of the remingtons i would have a real shooter though. the 6ppc is better though for benchrest. i would rather have a 6ppc than the 222s.

If you wish to sell one of your 222s and it is ambidextrous or left handed, let me know.

drover
03-23-2011, 09:12 AM
As most folks who have read my posts know that I am an avid Cooper fan, but one thing you may want to consider is that the Cooper is a 3-lug action - this gives a slightly heavier bolt lift than a 2-lug action. It is normally not a problem but with your limitations it is something that you may want to consider before you purchase a rifle. If you have a chance to try a Cooper bolt lift you will notice that it does require a bit more "oomph" to raise the bolt on them, this is not a Cooper design flaw but rather is something that you will encounter with any 3-lug action.

drover

jdjframes
03-23-2011, 09:36 AM
Any Experience with the 222 Remington?

Boy does that make me feel old. The 222 was the thing back when. I've had a pretty big pile of them, 2 Rem 40Xs, a Shilen DGA and others. Have a dandy right now, but don't shoot it much. For a deadly fun gun, it is hard to beat.

By all means have a nice one built and enjoy it.

Jim

Ford42
03-28-2011, 10:27 AM
The 222 would make an excellent choice. I've owned 3 over the past 25 years and all were capable of sub 1/2" 5 shot groups under ideal conditions. Currently I have only one, a heavy barreled Rem 700 BDL with a Unertl 15X Varmint scope which I use primarily for varmint hunting, and out to 200 yds or so, is deadly.

Just curious, but why do you want to stay clear of the 22 PPC? From an accuracy standpoint it has proved over the past 30 years to be slightly superior to the 222, and can be loaded to near 22-250 velocities for hunting purposes, giving it a 75 to 100 yd effective range advantage over the 222. Also, if you find the need to reload while at the range, no press is required, lightening the "load" of reloading equipment considerably.

If you plan to shoot a good number of rounds, I would not recommend the 220 Swift. It will of course produce more velocity and range than any of the .224s, it can also wash out a barrel in as few as 1000 rounds where as the 222 can sometimes maintain good accuracy for up to 10,000 rounds.

Even though I have a bias in favor of the PPC, the 222 chambered in a quality rifle will give you excellent performance, be it on paper or prairie dogs.

Ford42

brian roberts
03-29-2011, 09:41 PM
but the nostalgia bug bit me pretty deep and hung on. When I was a teenager, a now long-gone neighborhood adult let me shoot his .222, it was a Marlin 322 heavy barrel(SAKO receiver), and I collected my first varmint with it. I still have MY first .222, a Savage-Anshutz M153, and five or six SAKOs, and a Marlin like my friend had, along with a single shot FN.

I never pick up a .222 rifle, case, or load a .222 cartridge without thinking fondly of him, and the times we had talking in the field, with the Marlin ready for duty.

I take it, from reading a couple of your previous posts that finances may be a consideration for you. So, working within some of the limitations of the design, why don't you rebarrel your Ruger #1?? You'd have to use the Ruger rings and place the scope within those requirements, but with the mild recoil, it shouldn't present a problem.

Economically, that may be your best result, as you're only paying for a barrel and installation, it will cut your search-time and get you a barrel that will allow you to shoot it THIS summer.

If you'll be doing ANY varmint shooting, I'd personally recommend the 1-12" twist, if you keep it strictly on the bench, looking for the last .001 of accuracy, go with the 14" twist. The 1-12" does perform a bit better on varmints, in MY experience.

Hope this helped. ;)

dickw22
03-30-2011, 07:50 AM
A duece is probably my all time favorite cartridge. The first new gun I bought was a Sako Rhiimaki in .222.

FWIW Remington used to include a group with all new 40X's which showed which load was used. It was almost always 23-1/2 gr. of 4895. This is extremely accurate and safe. You can't get enough 4895 in the case to cause problems.

Dick

GerryM
03-30-2011, 08:56 AM
I have shot many in competition years ago. The 222 was the case to have. It was very hard to beat in competition.
Many Many shooters shot many a record group and agg with the duce. When starting in the game it was the Cartridge to have . Especially in a H/V rifle. 13.5 lbs is where most people started in our game. It was easy to tune and highly accurate.
The duce is a great case even today and the world record small group was shot with the 222. I Remember LOU CHURCH
He had only One arm as was a fiece competitor. Great guy who never gave up. One of the favorite koads was 20.5 gr of imr 4198 in a neck turned remington case and a remington 7 1/2 primer seeated to be jumping{off the lands}
Good luck and have fun '''''

Slowshot
04-05-2011, 02:15 AM
ust curious, but why do you want to stay clear of the 22 PPC? From an accuracy standpoint it has proved over the past 30 years to be slightly superior to the 222, and can be loaded to near 22-250 velocities for hunting purposes, giving it a 75 to 100 yd effective range advantage over the 222. Also, if you find the need to reload while at the range, no press is required, lightening the "load" of reloading equipment considerably.

If you plan to shoot a good number of rounds, I would not recommend the 220 Swift. It will of course produce more velocity and range than any of the .224s, it can also wash out a barrel in as few as 1000 rounds where as the 222 can sometimes maintain good accuracy for up to 10,000 rounds.

Ford42

There are several reasons why I chose the 222. High quality brass is readily available. The recoil is very mild. It gives excellent accuracy with relatively light loads. It has history. Not everyone has one.

As to the 220 Swift, if you load it up to it's maximum velocities, it is not good for barrel life. I load it up to the mid 3,000s and get excellent accuracy. After many hundreds of rounds, there is no evidence of excessive wear. In fact the rifle seems to be getting more accurate (or I am) as I continue shooting my favorite loads.

GerryM
04-06-2011, 04:05 PM
That was one of the 222 reminton,s best assets. The barrels lasted a long time. If I remember the chamber pressure were down quite a bit compaired to todays loads in the ppcs etc. I still Have two in my safe , and they still shoot.
When I get in a rut and don't think my shooting is going well i take one out from time to time. Then i can tell if it's my shooting or my hand loads that are giving me trouble.

Slowshot
04-06-2011, 09:40 PM
I have made my decision. Russ Haydon is going to build my rifle in 222 Remington, with a BAT SB action, Jewell trigger and Krieger barrel. I have not made a final decision on a stock but I am taking a serious look at the Shehane Tracker Obeche Wood Laminate. To keep weight down, it may be the "Baby Tracker". We are working to have the rifle be able to make weight at 10.5 lbs.

http://scopeusout.com/custom-rifle-stocks/target-stocks/

skeetlee
04-07-2011, 06:49 AM
Will a BAT ppc bolt pull the 222case or do you need a smaller bolt face? Reason i ask is that a good friend ofmine is shooting a 20 222 and he loves it so i am thinking about maybe having a barrel chambered for this as well. Just for something fun to pay with, that is!! Lee

drover
04-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Since we are talking 222 here I have to show off how my new one shoots. I purchased a Cooper Classic (sporter style stock), in 222, a couple of weeks ago, we finally had a calm morning yesterday so I put it on paper. It took 5 shots to get the zero where I wanted it and then I shot these two 5-shot groups with it, at 100 yds. I realize that these are not benchrest groups but this is from a less than 7 lb. rifle with a 2 lb trigger.

Yes! The 222 will shoot.


drover

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab220/iamdrover/Cooper222groups.jpg

GerryM
04-07-2011, 12:56 PM
Those groups are very competatve. If you could hold an agg with them at 100 you probably would be in the top ten.

drover
04-07-2011, 01:42 PM
I have no illusions about holding an agg like that - this was more of a combination of great conditions, I was on with my bench technique, and a little luck.

But it does illustrate how easy it is to make a 222 shoot, I have never had one that did not shoot well and was easy to develop a load for. I actually just put this load together to get it sighted in and get an idea of how it may possibly shoot - I think that load development is over.

drover

TheoW
04-11-2011, 10:40 AM
During the '60's I had 3 rigs in .222....Rem 722, Rem 40X and a custom Cadet Martini. They were great to shoot and reload. Those were our salad years and the guns were sold....much to my regret today. I recently wanted to buy a 222 but ended up with a Rem Classic(2002) in 223R which serves me well....I love it! Not benchrest as you might want but at 82yrs I'm having a ball at the bench. You may want to consider the 223...a tad longer, but has all the attributes of a 222 even to the point of using the same reloading components. Just my humble opinion. Good luck!

skeetlee
04-11-2011, 05:59 PM
I have a box of factory 222 here so i pulled them out to take a look. Something that came to my mind was the shoulder angle. What about having a 222 with 40Degree shoulder? I am sure someone has done this already. Heck maybe thats what a 222 rem mag is. I wouldnt know. My wheels are turning about this 222 and i think if the concrete jobs come in this year like in the years past i might just have to build one. I would probably ise an Athey stock " since i already have one" A Havekamp action, and a shilen or whatever barrel in a 14 twist. I think i could do this for pretty cheap. Can someone here tell me a little about different degrees on the shoulder of the 222? I dont think i would want to blow it forward much, just change the angle. I guess it would be a 222 Ackley Improved??? Lee

Slowshot
04-11-2011, 10:48 PM
During the '60's I had 3 rigs in .222....Rem 722, Rem 40X and a custom Cadet Martini. They were great to shoot and reload. Those were our salad years and the guns were sold....much to my regret today. I recently wanted to buy a 222 but ended up with a Rem Classic(2002) in 223R which serves me well....I love it! Not benchrest as you might want but at 82yrs I'm having a ball at the bench. You may want to consider the 223...a tad longer, but has all the attributes of a 222 even to the point of using the same reloading components. Just my humble opinion. Good luck!

While the 223 Remington shares many of the same attributes as the 222; the 222 is inherently more accurate and has history that the 223 cannot match. As Russ Haydon said, a 222 is a 56 Chevy Convertible. Similar to my Vickers Martini 22, not everyone has one and it evokes an earlier time. The 222 had it's day about the same time I had my day. Those of you who, like me, are in your mid-60s will understand. The 223 makes me think of Viet Nam and those thoughts do not improve my mood at all.

OldHoward
04-14-2011, 08:59 AM
I might suggest you look for a used 40x with a 27 inch barrel, wood stock used. The wood stock might be easier for you to modify for your needs. These rifles shoot very well and can be found for less than $1000,00 in excellent condition. Left hand version were made but would be harder to come by. This is what I know these rifles will do: Using a dillion press no neck turning, primer reaming, or fancy case prep, they will shot in the 2's and 3's all day long. Spend some time neck sizing/turning and case prep and fiddling with powder and they will shoot better. They will shoot prairie dogs at 300 yards, or go to match and you could be in the winners circle. While I don't do bench rest any more I might attend a match every now and then, and on occasion a old guy with a duce will drive the latest $6k whiz bang rifleman crazy! The duce is old technology, but it is good technology. Hope this note helps.

Slowshot
04-17-2011, 05:52 PM
I appreciate the idea of buying used. There is a greater difficulty in finding left handed than you might expect. Then the seller expects a premium price. That is one of the main reasons why I am having a rifle built. As mentioned I cannot operate a right handed rifle with any comfort or fun. I am not just being stubborn. It is a physical impossibility.

I have needed to pay a premium for each left handed bolt action rifle, I have ever bought. Only the falling block rifles (my Martinis and my Ruger No. 1) did not cost extra. Even with that added surcharge the options are limited, as many fine rifles were never made left handed. Whether it is musical instruments, motorcycles or rifles, having a disability means custom work is part of every project for me. No self pity. That's just the way it is.

A friend once chided me for all of the money I was "wasting" on my motorcycles. "I am not wasting the money, I replied." "I give it to skilled workmen, who use the money to feed their families and I get cool toys to play with in the bargain." Keep in mind, I plan to die dead broke, with a smile on my face.:D

Del Martin
04-18-2011, 07:41 PM
Slowshot,
Your decision to go with the rifle being put together by Russ Haydon is a good one. He is a great guy and there is nothing like shooting a well made BR rifle. I also shoot LH and have a disability but am able to shoot in competitive BR as well as many live varmints. We are about the same age and I have seen them all and shot most. However, one of my most fun varmint rifles is a Rem 722 that has been converted to LH. It is a 22-250. I have seen several of these around and you might run across one if you look. Just an idea I think you would like it. The LBRP configuration is ideal.

GerryM
04-18-2011, 08:02 PM
Skeet, The 40 Deg 222 is not a new thought. Its very good .. It is just a tad faster then the 222. We use to have the 222 1/2 back when / That was the 222 mag set back .050 or .100 it gave us a tad more powder. The 40 Deg did the same things. It was very accurate. Still for a standard factory case the 222 as is is hard to beat.

Slowshot
04-19-2011, 04:03 PM
Slowshot,
Your decision to go with the rifle being put together by Russ Haydon is a good one. He is a great guy and there is nothing like shooting a well made BR rifle. I also shoot LH and have a disability but am able to shoot in competitive BR as well as many live varmints. We are about the same age and I have seen them all and shot most. However, one of my most fun varmint rifles is a Rem 722 that has been converted to LH. It is a 22-250. I have seen several of these around and you might run across one if you look. Just an idea I think you would like it. The LBRP configuration is ideal.

Del,

At this point, I am completely committed to the Russ Haydon build. I already gave him a deposit on the BAT action. Next Thursday, I am driving down to Gresham Oregon to visit Wright's Gunstock Blanks: http://www.wrightsguns.com/black_walnut.html

I have spoken with Doyal Wright on the phone and he sent me pictures of several blanks he though might work for me. I forwarded the pictures to Russ, who agreed any of the pictured blanks would make a beautiful stock for my rifle.

I will have the stock made ambidextrous, so a right handed shooter could operate the rifle from a bench LBRC (left bolt/right cheek). As for me, the lack of a functioning right hand (I am "onearm" on Rimfire Central) limits my options to benchrest or bipod shooting with a rifle that I can operate completely with my left hand.

I plan to have this be my only super accurate centerfire rifle and my last custom rifle for a while. I still have my Ruger No. 1 220 Swift, Anschutz MPR, CZ 452, Vickers Martini and my LH Precision 10/22 Magnum. Each of these is either left handed bolt action or fully ambidextrous. I don't like to have my toys sitting in a closet, collecting dust, so this will be enough for now. Perhaps some day I will want a long range (1000 yard) gun but that's a project for another time.

Northman
04-26-2011, 10:29 AM
Slowshot: great you have figuerd it out!

Im also looking into building a 222, have e-mailed several makers, but not sure what or who Im having it built.


I just wanted a low recoiling, long barreld life, fun and easy gun to shoot out to 300yards. Using top of the line equipment, its gonna be expensive and I hope its my only one :)


Just realisticly how does the 222 agg, compared to say a 6ppc or 6mmBR out to 300 yards. To those who have used both, whats the diffrence? 0.1" compard to 0.3"?

GerryM
04-26-2011, 10:58 AM
In close on a good day { moderate to light winds} if you do your part the 222 will agg very small. The big draw back is
Bullet weight and velocity. At longer ranges the 222 runs out of steam{ the drift increase quite a bit.
That said the 222mag comes into play. It holds velocity better. Many shooters shot the mag at 200.
Bob Hart won the IBS nationals one year with the duce mag. Wally Hart used it quite a bt also. Wally won several
shoots with the 222Mag. The one thing different between the 22.s and the 6mms in the bullet weight and bullet coefficents. These make the 6mm more effective past 200 yds, Anyway thats what I have seen over the years.
Good shooting for 100 and 200 yds you will love the duce. Its inexpensive and fun to shoot

Slowshot
04-26-2011, 03:17 PM
I see the 222 as strictly a 100-200 yard gun. At those ranges, the superior shooter will have a fair chance against the shooter with a similar rifle in 6 PPC or 22 PPC.

Beyond 200 yards, I have my (3800-4200 fps) Ruger No. 1 220 Swift. I constantly have to show my 220 Swift targets to other shooters to overcome their scepticism as to how accurate it can be. With my hand loads, it is a .5 MOA rifle (really). Though it is not a target rifle, it fills my need for 300+ yard shooting. One and a half to two inch accuracy at 300 yards is just fine for a varmint rifle with a two piece stock that cost less than the scope mounted on it. Yuh think??

As GerryM and others have said, the 222 has mild recoil, it is easy and inexpensive to hand load 222 ammunition for it and it is just as dramatically accurate as it was when it first came on the line.

Sure there is always something new and better coming to knock off the current best. Someday, a cartridge will come along that will be more accurate than the 6 PPC. Will you all throw your PPC rifles away?? If it comes to that, send them to me. I wouldn't mind taking them off your hands.:cool:

Slowshot
04-27-2011, 03:30 PM
It's a done deal. Russ Haydon and I have made all of the important decisions. It will have a BAT action Krieger Barrel, Jewell trigger and a Kelbly HC FB stock in metal flake blue, as in the picture on the Kelbly site:
http://www.kelbly.com/kelblystocks.html

The BAT action comes with integral bases and scope rings that are trued at the factory and need no lapping. I will transferring my Leupold 36X target scope to the rifle.

I chose Kelbly because they have a proven track record of winning competitions at state, regional and national levels, while costing less than similar McMillan and Shehane stocks. They also come in more attractive standard colors than McMilan stocks. I chose the HC FB because it has a flat profile benchrest forearm, while still being appropriate for shooting off hand. Though I cannot shoot off hand, I am an old guy and expect to pass the rifle on to one of my sons or grandsons in the next 10-15 years.

Of all of my firearms projects, this is the most thoroughly thought out. Now comes the hard part...the wait.

Davey Ditzer
11-04-2013, 06:09 PM
Felt like I had to respond to this shooter on the 222. I began my journey in bench rest with Coopers, so I registered on this site to answer. My first was a 223 and I shot sub 0.5 MOA out to 200 yards. Then I rebarreled another model 21 in 222Rem and it shot even better. Over several years of shooting and comparing these two rifles (identical model 21 Coopers( I found that the 222 always outshot the 223 by a slight, but reproducible margin). I am left handed, but for bench shooting, I prefer RH rifles. My best loads with the 222 are with N-133 and Sierra 52 or 53 gr. bullets. In the 223, I found that W-748 shot best but by the slimmest of margins. In my Kimber, Varget was better. The only reason I ever sold any of my 222 rifles is that I had too many - at one time 5! Got to the point that I bought my own reamer for 222 (250 neck). Glad to share more. Just ask.





As some of you may know, I am a disabled shooter, able only to shoot left handed off a bipod or a rest. While I mostly shoot rimfire, I do enjoy hand loading and load development in centerfire rifles. Having taken a serious look at what is needed to compete with you guys, I decided to skip the competition and just enjoy unusual centerfire rifles in unusual cartridges.

Until recently, my only centerfire rifles have been a Winchester 100 in 243 Winchester and a Ruger No. 1 Varmint in 220 Swift. The 243 is long gone. Now I have decided to give up some speed and energy for a milder cartridge that is a bit more accurate at 100-200 yards, so I have put my Ruger up for sale. My friendly gunsmith (Tim) has suggested I look into the 222 Remington.

In my research, I have read a lot that is good and nothing negative about the cartridge. One reviewer claimed that it is the most accurate .224 caliber cartridge other than the 22 PPC. Another claimed while the 220 Swift is still king of long range .224s, the 222 Remington it is the most accurate medium range varmint round ever.

I have also found that Cooper makes a left handed single shot bolt action rifle in 222 Remington.

http://www.cooperfirearms.com/rifles.php?rifle_name=vr&cal=222-Rem

So my questions are: Do any of you have personal experience with this cartridge? If so, what comments can you make about it? Do you still own a rifle in 222 Remington? If not, why did you let it go?

Davey Ditzer
11-04-2013, 06:15 PM
Despite having several 222s and loving every one, I have also had and shot 6mmPPC and 6mmBR. Sold the ppc because our matches went to 300 yards. It was a mistake and I still can't shoot my 6BR (Kelbly) as well as I shot the 6 PPC. I don't know if it's recoil with the heavier bullets or just me, but I sometimes think but the 6PPC that I let go (a Hall action). Of course brass prep. with the 6PPC was more of a chore, but once you've done it, they last a long time - mine up to 30 reloads. Also, barrel life with the 222 is outstanding.


Slowshot: great you have figuerd it out!

Im also looking into building a 222, have e-mailed several makers, but not sure what or who Im having it built.


I just wanted a low recoiling, long barreld life, fun and easy gun to shoot out to 300yards. Using top of the line equipment, its gonna be expensive and I hope its my only one :)


Just realisticly how does the 222 agg, compared to say a 6ppc or 6mmBR out to 300 yards. To those who have used both, whats the diffrence? 0.1" compard to 0.3"?

Davey Ditzer
11-04-2013, 06:16 PM
For agg shooting to 200 (and maybe 300) yards, the 6PPC is still king!

Davey Ditzer
11-04-2013, 10:16 PM
Despite having several 222s and loving every one, I have also had and shot 6mmPPC and 6mmBR. Sold the ppc because our matches went to 300 yards. It was a mistake and I still can't shoot my 6BR (Kelbly) as well as I shot the 6 PPC. I don't know if it's recoil with the heavier bullets or just me, but I sometimes think but the 6PPC that I let go (a Hall action). Of course brass prep. with the 6PPC was more of a chore, but once you've done it, they last a long time - mine up to 30 reloads. Also, barrel life with the 222 is outstanding.

If the difference between 0.1" and 0.3" groups is not important to a shooter, then I would choose the 222 for multiple reasons including economy, ease of reloading and available rifles and barrels. Always have to ask, what do you want the rifle for and what do you want the rifle to do?

Charles E
11-04-2013, 11:10 PM
Aside: I got interested in this thread late, and have read some of it (including the original post), but not all.

If you're not going to compete, the next couple paragraphs are of less value. But anyway...

I'd remark that I've now shot one (1 only) USB score match, the Nationals, so I'm hardly expert on it as a shooter. But as a reporter, I believe most people there would argue that a .22 has a slight advantage in that format. That advantage comes in the form of lower recoil, hence the ability to shoot faster. If your disability means you cannot shoot fast -- run the target -- some of that advantage is lost.

Secondly, within the .22 chamberings, most believe that a .222 isn't quite as accurate as a .220 Russian (or Beggs), or a .22 PPC, (usually held in .010 or so). I can think of ways to lessen that advantage, all the way to using steelhead cases with Palmisano's cone-shaped base. This should improve the ignition considerably. There are probably other ways to achieve an advantage, no one's working on them, because they are all harder than using a different chambering.

But so what? That's not the point, the point is that if you care to push the envelope with a .222, no one else has worked on it in a number of years, and there do appear to be things that could be pursued.

One more thing on USB. I tried to interest my club in the format; they felt the current system, using a .30 reticule to score every target regardless of the caliber used, worked good enough. I'm not going to argue that either way, just be aware that at a club level (only), there are several options in score competition to remove the very real disadvantages of .22s

Finally, leaving competition, my hunch is that to get a .222 to be very accurate, you need very good bullets. This "very good" goes beyond the skill of the bullet maker; there are a number of highly skilled bullet makers. It's the luck of their getting a superior lot of jackets, not only low runout (in the .0001 region), but also superior ductility.

How to find those jackets? Ah, there's the rub. You can always just ask. The late Jef Fowler always told customers when he had bad jackets, otherwise they were "good." But if you asked him *how* good, he'd tell you. I think most bullet makers today would do the same. So, take things slow, ask, and when good ones appear, buy what you can.

Very good bullets, a very good barrel, work on the ignition, and you'll have a surprisingly capable .222 Remington rifle.

Since I've never worked one up, I don't know where to start, except I'd try different powder/primer combinations, based on recommended powders. I'd look at Michael Turner's flash hole shrinking tool, more for the effect on uniforming the entire flash hole than for reducing it per se, though that too might help.

Pursuing ignition beyond what;'s normally considered sane, look at Palmisano's case design for "long range" cases, achievable by us mortals only by making a 2-piece, steel head case. Thread the brass to fit inside the steel, admittedly the harder approach. Can't find a picture on the internet, but there was an older article in Precision Shooting on the design...

Etc.

For any single rifle, I believe a particular chambering is less important that all the other details, one of which, sadly, is a great barrel. We don't yet know how to make great barrels, but they do happen.

Good luck to you,

Charles Ellertson

Lee Martin
11-05-2013, 09:49 AM
We built my first 222 in 1991 and I've been hooked on it ever since. I can't tell you how many times its put me in the 1's and 2's with an old Lyman Target Dot and Sierra Match Kings (over RL-7):

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/BR2221_zps453620fe.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/BR2221_zps453620fe.jpg.html)

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/BR2227_zps2725c7ac.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/BR2227_zps2725c7ac.jpg.html)

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/BR2222_zps109ac614.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/BR2222_zps109ac614.jpg.html)

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z149/AtomicPinUp/BR2226_zpsc9f7f7dc.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/AtomicPinUp/media/BR2226_zpsc9f7f7dc.jpg.html)

I hope to start competing next year and it'll be with a PPC. That said the 222 has won me over on accuracy, life-span, and ease to tune.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Hunter
11-07-2013, 11:33 AM
Glad to share more. Just ask.

DD, check you're PM Inbox.

Pete Wass
11-07-2013, 09:00 PM
When I was about 17 an adult friend of mine had a little Sako 222 that he let me shoot at our club turkey shoot. I won three turkeys and my mother paid for my shooting. That was the best shooting rifle I have ever had in my hands before or since. I am now older retired and If I ever see one of those little Sako rifles again I will buy it.

Concho Bill


Bill,

Every time I have looked on Auction Arms.com I have seen several .222 Vixens there for sale. The tought ones to find are the 6PPC's

Pete

Ian_Owen
11-08-2013, 05:51 PM
As some of you may know, I am a disabled shooter, able only to shoot left handed off a bipod or a rest. While I mostly shoot rimfire, I do enjoy hand loading and load development in centerfire rifles. Having taken a serious look at what is needed to compete with you guys, I decided to skip the competition and just enjoy unusual centerfire rifles in unusual cartridges.

Until recently, my only centerfire rifles have been a Winchester 100 in 243 Winchester and a Ruger No. 1 Varmint in 220 Swift. The 243 is long gone. Now I have decided to give up some speed and energy for a milder cartridge that is a bit more accurate at 100-200 yards, so I have put my Ruger up for sale. My friendly gunsmith (Tim) has suggested I look into the 222 Remington.

In my research, I have read a lot that is good and nothing negative about the cartridge. One reviewer claimed that it is the most accurate .224 caliber cartridge other than the 22 PPC. Another claimed while the 220 Swift is still king of long range .224s, the 222 Remington it is the most accurate medium range varmint round ever.

I have also found that Cooper makes a left handed single shot bolt action rifle in 222 Remington.

http://www.cooperfirearms.com/rifles.php?rifle_name=vr&cal=222-Rem

So my questions are: Do any of you have personal experience with this cartridge? If so, what comments can you make about it? Do you still own a rifle in 222 Remington? If not, why did you let it go?

Slowshot, the reason I highlighted the bit above was that back in 2001 one of the competitors at the World Benchrest Championship held in Nelson New Zealand (WBC6) was in a wheelchair and was using a Remington 40XBR in 223. He did pretty good too beating a lot of 6PPC's, full results can be found here, his name is Ken Simpson, http://www.world-benchrest.com/WBC6.doc

I don't know your exact situation but please don't let being in a wheelchair stop you.....Ian

Brian Adams
12-03-2013, 06:48 PM
I have an old Sako L461 Vixen in 222 Rem, and it's the most accurate sporter I own, shoots cloverleafs all day. I load 40-grain V-max bullets atop H4198 for varmints. It has the sweetest little action, can't stop ogling it, makes a short Rem 700 seem bloated. Very smooth bolt feed out of the magazine if I want, and the ejector is very gentle, so cases are easy to coddle while extracting. Beautiful walnut Montecarlo stock with a flat-bottom forend. In short - a joy to own and shoot. The 222 cartridge likewise makes one wax poetic - very pretty little case (to my eye) compared to the 223 (which I also load), legendary accuracy, easy on the ears, shoulder, and the powder budget. If you want the best Lapua makes 222 brass that will last forever. I doubt you'll regret owning a good 222 rifle.

alinwa
12-04-2013, 02:04 AM
........................ The 223 makes me think of Viet Nam and those thoughts do not improve my mood at all.

That's enough... Enjoy the 222!!!

What it's REALLY about is that just touching it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.

:)

al

Slowshot
12-11-2013, 03:57 PM
I don't think I ever got back to you guys on the final result of my 222 Remington Project. In the end, Russ Haydon put together the rifle for me. It is a left handed BAT action 222, with a Jewell trigger, Krieger barrel and Kelbly HCFB stock. When it was finished, I mounted a Weaver T-36 and Russ and I took it to my home club and broke it in. Since then I have made two changes. I removed the rather large butt pad I had asked for as I am shooting mostly free recoil and the thing kicks like a kitten anyhow. Also, I replaced the scope with a Leupold BR 36 that had been bumped to 50X. I am still learning how to handle the rifle and have fewer than 100 rounds down range with it, while load testing. Still, in it's current configuration, it has already given me one 100 yard 5-shot group measuring 0.211". As the saying goes, "preliminary results are encouraging."

Here is a picture with the T-36 and before I removed the butt pad:

alinwa
12-11-2013, 09:15 PM
I call that a Bench Rest Rifle!!

Good On Ya

Keep us posted on what she does eh....

al

Slowshot
12-05-2014, 04:12 PM
In addition the the custom bench gun in 222 Remington that Russ Haydon built for me, as one of his last builds before he retired. Last year I also bought a Ruger No. 1A in 222 Rem. I would have preferred a 1V but that model is out of production. I am able to shoot it from a bench with a bipod. Now being a guy with little good judgment and less self control , I am looking for a left handed bolt action 222 that weighs a bit less than the BAT 222. Wouldn't you know CZ makes the CZ 527 right or left handed in .223 Rem. but only right handed in .222 Rem. I see Tikka makes a left handed T3 Hunter in 222 Rem. but that is a very light weight hunting rifle, not really my style. I have owned several light weight hunting rifles and found they just sit in my safe and become 'safe queens'. I do not need any safe queens. I am too old and not rich enough.* What I would like would be about a 9-10 lb. varmint weight rifle in 222 Rem that I could use with either a bipod or a rest. I would even trade the Ruger No. 1** straight across for the right rifle. Any suggestions?

Health problems have kept me away from the range most of the past year so I do not have a lot of rounds down range with the BAT 222. Within the first 100 rounds, I did achieve this result:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c33/donhoneycutt/c65c8e6c-6646-44cc-9c12-f44a41624985.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/donhoneycutt/media/c65c8e6c-6646-44cc-9c12-f44a41624985.jpg.html)

* Over a year ago, I ordered an SEB NEO rest. I have it now but have not yet gotten it to the firing line. Now you see why I cannot afford safe queens.:o

**Here is the Ruger No. 1 in 222 Rem. Russ Haydon set it up with a bipod stud for me and I had a Jard 1.75 lb. trigger installed. I haven't even run 50 rounds through it yet and none with the new trigger. What was I thinking??
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c33/donhoneycutt/1A222C.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/donhoneycutt/media/1A222C.jpg.html)

Nickle
12-23-2014, 02:32 PM
Slow, glad to see it worked out. I started shooting benchrest in the late 60's with a 13.5 pound 222. Got out of it when I went in the Army, and back into it when I got out. Then got out of it, and picked it back up last year.

I've still got several 222's, Heavy Bench (Rem 722), Heavy Varmint (Hart), Light Varmint (40X) and several others no longer used in competition or factory sporting rifles. All that said, I am slowly going to phase the caliber out of the benchrest rifles, but some of the others are staying as 222's. It's still a competitive caliber, though rarely used in competition any more.

Rexracer707
12-27-2014, 09:44 PM
Glad those .222 are working out. There is just something about them, I have a Sako L461 in .222, hand me down from my grandpa to my dad then me, serial number is from the early 60's, It has the original scope he put on, a Bausch and Lomb(No Turrets on scope) with Leupold adjustable bases. Still drives tacks at 100yrds, And I have never adjusted the scope.

My normal load for it is 22grs AA2230 with a Sierra 52Gr HPBT.
Have another load with IMR4895 but can't find or remember it.:confused:

Slowshot
12-28-2014, 04:04 PM
First of all, for those who are concerned about my disability, this is not a problem at all. With many years of experience in dealing with partial right side paralysis, I got it. I only mention it to help explain some of my choices. It saves on a lot of Q&A. My most recent health issues are mainly related to getting old.

I got out twice this week with both of my 222s. Once again, the BAT gave me pretty decent results:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c33/donhoneycutt/scan0001.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/donhoneycutt/media/scan0001.jpg.html)

The Ruger No. 1A shoots just fine but it is not the right rifle for me. I let another guy try it. He easily achieved sub MOA with it. I am in a bit of a quandary. I have too much invested in it to sell it at my cost or to lose a lot in a resale. I found one guy who could re-barrel and re-stock it to be a 1V but then I would have nearly $2000 invested in a rifle that would still be marginal for me.:(

PS: The SEB NEO rest is worth every penny I paid for it. I will try to get a picture of my current BR setup on the line, sometime later this week. It is pretty cold right now but the wind has been calm, which really helps me.