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RLHBUSL
02-09-2011, 08:06 PM
Does anyone know who sells the green laser used to set flags? The particular one I'm thinking about is in a box with adjustable legs that sits on the bench. Someone was selling them at the Denton match last fall, but I can't recall who. Contact information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance! Ryan

kkuperman
02-09-2011, 08:20 PM
George Clutter or Mike Stinnet

RLHBUSL
02-09-2011, 08:27 PM
Thanks for the prompt response kkuperman!

RJM
02-10-2011, 07:30 AM
How do you use a laser to set flags without running the risk of looking straight back at it & frying your retina?
Regards, Ron

RLHBUSL
02-10-2011, 07:53 AM
"Doctors say that laser pointers with power less than 5 milliwatts (5mW) are safe to use." - Wikipedia

macflyboy
02-10-2011, 09:42 AM
Someone needs to make a reality TV show about setting flags, every match cracks me up. How grown men can make something so simple > so difficult. We need to offer that humor to the world!

Fred J
02-10-2011, 10:16 AM
I've even seen shooters/flag setters, use their Cell phone to communicate. I tried the hand signals, but if your setter is blind or deaf, what do you do?

Pete Wass
02-10-2011, 11:41 AM
I have seen a number of folks use a line of some sort, most often mono-filiment off a fishing reel of some sort. I did see once some folks using what appeared to be a stout nylon line from a large reel, which I assumed may have 300 yds of line in it. I think the line may be a pretty good way to go as long as the grounds at the range is somewhat friendly. TK's method does seem hard to beat, I must say. I have watched a couple of times and helped him one time and it is a great method.

One of the ranges I frequent has lots of berms and a deep ravine between 100 and 200 so an arrow pointer wouldn't do a lot of good beind the berm, in the swayle. I have tried several radios that have the VOX system in them and tried a headset with hands-free feature but none of them have worked very well.

Another problem seems to be the ranges are littered with people who can't hear very well, now, that IS a problem with, what appears, no solution :).

Boyd Allen
02-10-2011, 12:09 PM
This isn't rocket science. If you are not doing it by yourself, a couple of cell phones with Bluetooth earpieces should work just fine. All this fancy rifle and reloading technology and we are using smoke signals to set flags ;-)

wolf gray
02-10-2011, 12:22 PM
This isn't rocket science. If you are not doing it by yourself, a couple of cell phones with Bluetooth earpieces should work just fine. All this fancy rifle and reloading technology and we are using smoke signals to set flags ;-)

Boyd,
I don't know about you, but in our area, knowledgeable Indians are gettin' hard to come by ! :)

Best,
Dan Batko

"Where are we going and why am I in this basket?"

Cheechako
02-10-2011, 12:25 PM
Has anyone ever proven that flags lined up to the nearest .001" result in smaller groups? I don't think so.

JMHO

Ray

Pete Wass
02-10-2011, 02:23 PM
This isn't rocket science. If you are not doing it by yourself, a couple of cell phones with Bluetooth earpieces should work just fine. All this fancy rifle and reloading technology and we are using smoke signals to set flags ;-)

Ain't it the truth but I got to tell ya, I don't think I have seen anything that looks any more goofy than most people with those Bluetooth earpieces. I can't bring myself to do it and then there is this deal with most of the folks I shoot with being deaf - - - smoke signals work a lot better for them.

Jerry H
02-10-2011, 04:44 PM
Setting flags with a laser is by far the fastest, easiest, and most accurate way of setting flags. One person can do it without any communication problems. Now with regards to the safety issue, looking at any bright light will usually result in some sort of vision imparement. Most of the time it is short term. Flash bulbs, halogen, and the sun are examples. With a laser though, the light is intense and concentrated and therefore one needs to be more prudent with them. In other words don't sit there and stare at one. Up close these might cause permanent damage. Most in use diffuse the beam with distance and thus reduce the concentration as you get farther from the source. One could remote control the on/off or have an bench assistant switch it as needed when anyone is about to cross into your path. A caution sign at the bench might be helpful to the uninformed. A little care on both parties will elimate the safety issue and we could still have a great tool to use.

Doug Penttinen
02-10-2011, 06:37 PM
Your right but making sure they are in a straight line does help prevent them from getting "SHOT" !!!

mkihne
02-10-2011, 06:50 PM
FYI, here is some medical info on use of green lasers. Wave length of red lasers makes pointers relatively harmless. Aversion reflex will likely prevent damage to relatively low level green lasers, 5mW or less. Stronger green lasers may be another matter.

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/medicine_health/report-44173.html

Vern
02-10-2011, 07:17 PM
I think its great HOWEVER I WAS A VICTIM of walking in front of one of those danmm things and could not see good for 10 minutes.
Dont give me that cra$ about they cant/wont hurt you.

zippy06
02-10-2011, 07:34 PM
How do you use a laser to set flags without running the risk of looking straight back at it & frying your retina?
Regards, Ron

I use one. Viridian. Very helpfull. 10 min. shutoff. http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/
Mounted on a board w/ adjustable legs and a scope mounted next to it.
I work with several 8000 watt CO2 lasers. Regular safety glasses are fine. We weld sheet metal for cars and trucks. Safe if used correctly.

zippy06
02-10-2011, 07:40 PM
Only problem in 2 yrs. someone with a big behind bumped my setup. I get to the last flag and they were crooked. And the laser was off target. I think, they tried to fix it.....
They will remain nameless.......

Vern
02-10-2011, 07:42 PM
Yes safe if used correctly.
Then maybe the people using them on the line should be required to issue safety glasses to everyone on the range when they use one. Along with safety and instructional classes.
That hurt when it happend to me.
Prior to that I was all for it, now I am thinking of trying to bring up a rule for the NBRSA to consider for safety reasons.

mkihne
02-10-2011, 10:35 PM
Yes safe if used correctly.
Then maybe the people using them on the line should be required to issue safety glasses to everyone on the range when they use one. Along with safety and instructional classes.
That hurt when it happend to me.
Prior to that I was all for it, now I am thinking of trying to bring up a rule for the NBRSA to consider for safety reasons.

You have to be careful because you can buy green lasers rated well over 5mW in power. Your aversion reflex(makes you shut your eyes immediately when exposed to sun or bright light) protects your eyes with little or no visual impairment when exposed to low level laser enery. Higher energies applied to the retina can result in temporary visual problem like you had, Vern. Higher energies deposited to the retina may have permanent effects, even though you think your vision has recovered totaly. They are certainly a great tool for flag setting, but if using one, I think you have some responsibility to warn others that may stray into the beam.

Vern
02-10-2011, 10:42 PM
Thats exactly my point at least on the low end. Most dont bother to WARN people.
But so is life.

CubCouper
02-10-2011, 11:50 PM
I built one (green laser mounted with an old scope for aiming) and it worked pretty well -- so well I bought enough stuff to build six more to sell. The parts are in a box here somewhere. It was especially fun when I set my flags at night, otherwise a 5mw power laser only gets you about 50 yards out and you end up relying on the old methods of eye-balling it to finish. And that is when you find yourself staring back down your line of flags and knowing you have that flag within .001 of you line because you got an eye-full of laser beam. Even at 75 to 100 yards from a "safe" laser, that green sunspot will stick with you like accidently looking into the sun - usually through the first relay!

In the end, I decided that I like the social aspect of setting flags more than I like the precision of a laser-straight flag line. Help somebody set their line whenever you can... this sport is about more than small groups.

P.S. Send me a PM if you still want to try the laser thing (http://www.z-bolt.com/ASTRO10plus-green-laser-pointer.html) - 6 available at half-price!


Rod

zippy06
02-11-2011, 07:55 PM
Yes safe if used correctly.
Then maybe the people using them on the line should be required to issue safety glasses to everyone on the range when they use one. Along with safety and instructional classes.
That hurt when it happend to me.
Prior to that I was all for it, now I am thinking of trying to bring up a rule for the NBRSA to consider for safety reasons.

You are on a gun range. You should have been wearing safety glasses. And have your hearing protection handy.
Sorry BUT! it's your own fault.

zippy06
02-11-2011, 08:04 PM
Using a green laser at twilight, rain, snow, etc. is pretty cool. I shoot with 4 or 5 people that have lasers. And various setups. They all work.
And Nobody is Grumpy after.......I have have seen some famous shooters, really good shooters etc. That are in the worst moods after flag setting. A lot of yelling etc.
Wonder if my shooting would be better after being pissed off all day. Naaa This is better...
But, I have never turned down a fellow shooter to help or be helped.
That's one of the good things in this sport. The Social aspect. As Rodney indicated.

Vern
02-11-2011, 08:25 PM
Zippy Ill pardon your ignorance (lack of knowledge) but normal safety glasses and hearing protection dont do anything for lasers.
Read up and educate yourself before you make such statements about something which you seem to know nothing about.

As I did have both

Butch Lambert
02-11-2011, 08:57 PM
Hey Vern,
They are really neat to use.
I would worry if one was pointed at my chest.
Butch

Vern
02-11-2011, 09:56 PM
Oh I agree they are neat and a great idea.
If you do a search you will find I was the one who originally promoted the idea way way back when I was still in Denton.
And I thought it was still a great idea until I wandered into the path of one of the green ones. And had trouble seeing during the first relay afterwards, along with the headache that went with it.

zippy06
02-12-2011, 07:46 PM
Vern read my previous posts...

Glen. And everyone else. When you walk down range you don't look at the beam. You look at your beer belly. The light shines on you. Put your pole where you want it. Set your height, check tails, and alignment on the way back. It's real simple.

Think about it. Why???? It's just a tool. Like any other tool. We all own and use power tools.....

zippy06
02-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Vern. I reread your post.
I won't excuse your lack of being able to read and comprehend the material.
Safety glasses do protect you. If they don't, I should be blind.
I maintain and repair 9 CO2 8000 watt lasers. We weld sheet metal with them. Is that hot enough for you?????

mkihne
02-12-2011, 10:30 PM
There are no "general" safety glasses for laser protection. They are wavelength specific and sometimes laser power specific. Green lasers (which are being discussed) require protection at 532nm wavelenth. Safety glasses not specific to that wavelength may not be effective at all. Those for green lasers at that wavelength are usually crimson colored and some protective lenses have expanded protection to blue, violet, etc lasers.

Tim Oltersdorf
02-12-2011, 10:49 PM
Gentlemen, You may be interested in knowing that the USAF ABYAL 1A airborne laser weapon is being considered for defunding. One prototype has been built housed in a 747 airframe. It uses a megawatt chemical iodine laser developed for shooting down ballistic missiles which could easily be converted to alternate uses such as setting flags. There would be no problem with vision damage as anyone looking at or even straying into the beam would be vaporized. Tim

LHSmith
02-12-2011, 11:04 PM
I have seen one or two lasers set-up at matches last year, and assumed they were entirely harmless. However, apparently this may not be true ( I wouldn't trust the listed specs on a product made in China). In reading these posts my first impression was: how can they affect you when your setting up in your lane? But where I come from, we usually help each other to set-up and traversing the entire range is commonplace..it's a pre-shoot ritual that is part of the experience and I actually enjoy it. I would not be comfortable using such a device that could possibly do harm to another shooter just to make a simple chore less burdomson to me. And I would definitely not take the "you should know better than to look at a laser" attitude. Let's face it 20/20 left us a long time ago and our eyes are most definitely more sensitive to light.

jackie schmidt
02-12-2011, 11:24 PM
I have been at Matches where green lasers were being used, I did by mistake catch direct sight of one, it was pretty bright.

I know several top shooters who have considered bringing up an agenda item that these be banned. I am not sure at this time where I stand on the issue.......jackie

LHSmith
02-13-2011, 01:35 AM
Some info I found on the web ( not wikipedia).
The FDA has stated retina damage may occur when exposed to a class IIIa 5 mw laser at 10' or less.
Even though laser products are required to label their products , devices randomly checked have exceeded their labeled output.
Despite laws limiting the output of laser pointers, units from China and Hong Kong with much higher output are readily available thru the internet.
Australia limits the power to 1mw,while some other countries limit out at 2 mw.

alinwa
02-13-2011, 03:04 AM
BAD INFORMATION!!!! I'VE BEEN CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE ARE USING LASERS OF ADEQUATE POWER TO DESTRY HUMAN TISSUE......

i'M LEAVING THE POST ENTIRE IN THE INTEREST OF CONTINUITY.




I think it's good to remember that lasers are like anything else, they ain't magic. The only way they can "damage" anything is through energy transfer of sufficient magnitude to destroy human tissue.

An analogy; The flame from a butane lighter "can" cook a hotdog or give a person permanent scarring burns but it DOESN'T in normal usage. In fact every kid in the world has run his fingers thru the butane flame....and very few are permanently damaged from it.

I think people get scared of things like "laser" or "toxic" or "electric" or "microwave" or any number of other shock words out of ignorance, lack of knowledge.

There's a huge money machine running across the nation right now because some backyard chemist found a way to test for arsenic in water clear down to ppb level. That's parts per BILLION. And people are scared of "arsenic" not realizing that our parent's generation drank the stuff as med'cine. Bottled water on the store shelves has arsenic..... whoopee...

I've got several rotating construction lasers and you go around any construction site they're beeping all-round. They aren't regulated, nor do we have to put up signs. And we never will have to unless some greedy bleeding heart li............ well I won't go there....... But suffice it to say that the only way lasers will be controlled beyond the present level is through fear tactics. They're thoroughly tested for safety.

F'er cryin' out loud there's a really HUGE light emitting object right over our heads that'll fry our retinas in a fraction of the time required for a teeny 5m laser to do damage....

Don't look up!!

al

Vern
02-13-2011, 08:41 AM
Zippy just to set the record straight I was wearing glasses.
I was not aware there was a laser in my area but I happened to walk across a low patch of ground looking toward my bench and got hit in the eye.
I had on safety glasses and they didnt help.
I have read the info and as the testimonies on this thread show there is a problem.
There is obviously a lot of difference in the ones used at the range and yours.
I guess you should learn more about the ones at the range before making ignorant remarks.

Glen you are exactly right.

mkihne
02-13-2011, 09:34 AM
Don't know if anyone on this thread read my link at the top of page two, but I'll summarize. An eye doctor researching laser damage to the eye was given permission by a patient to test a green laser on his eye prior to removal for cancer. The eye was then examined pathologically for retinal damage. That's about as close as you can get to actual experience and proof. (I just reported, you decide.)

AJ300MAG
02-13-2011, 10:52 AM
Don't know if anyone on this thread read my link at the top of page two, but I'll summarize. An eye doctor researching laser damage to the eye was given permission by a patient to test a green laser on his eye prior to removal for cancer. The eye was then examined pathologically for retinal damage. That's about as close as you can get to actual experience and proof. (I just reported, you decide.)


Problem is, that doctor's report doesn't give the distance from the laser to the eye....

Had a conversation with someone who ACTUALLY uses a laser in the medical profession. He considered them safe enough that he wanted one for his personal use. From my experience you might see the same effect that you recieve from being exposed to a photo flash unit when having your picture taken, or having one of the newer high intensity flashlights aimed in your eyes.

mkihne
02-13-2011, 11:25 AM
Problem is, that doctor's report doesn't give the distance from the laser to the eye....

Had a conversation with someone who ACTUALLY uses a laser in the medical profession. He considered them safe enough that he wanted one for his personal use. From my experience you might see the same effect that you recieve from being exposed to a photo flash unit when having your picture taken, or having one of the newer high intensity flashlights aimed in your eyes.

Apples and oranges. We are talking coherent(pinpoint light sources) and wavelength of light makes a big difference. The point of the article (by a physician that does use and researches lasers) is that laser light does produce damage. The greater the laser energy the greater the damage over time. The experiment showed that retinal damage does occur with exposure. Regarding distance, flashlight exposure to the eye falls off by the square of the distance from the source, but laser light does not(that's why the government was trying to shoot down missles with lasers and not photo flash devices). BTW, I have ACTUALLY used lasers in my medical practice and have considered using a green laser(which I already own) for flag setting purposes(currently used for astronomy pointer). I have also had my detached retina "tacked down" by a laser which imparts minimal but significant damage to the retina in a pinpoint manner as have diabetics with retinal disease. Lasers can be used for corrective vision as well. You can't lump all lasers in a common basket, however. I also suggest you be no where near your buddy when he is playing around with his medical laser in his basement.

I think the point to take home here, as alluded to in other posts is this: If you want to expose your eye to your laser, you are free to do so. What you are not authorized to do is expose another person's eye to a laser they may not know is in operation while setting flags. In medicine we call that informed consent.:D

Regarding aiming at your"beer belly" when setting flags, I certainly have an ample target. I guess you've never shot at Kelblys or other ranges where you better have not only very short poles but a step ladder to set some. Somewhere in between something called"eye level" occurs.

AJ300MAG
02-13-2011, 11:54 AM
I also suggest you be no where near your buddy when he is playing around with his medical laser in his basement.

Ummmm................... Wrong assumption.

My buddy is an RN, he has control of the laser settings as the doctor is preforming medical proceedures.

LHSmith
02-13-2011, 12:01 PM
Problem is, that doctor's report doesn't give the distance from the laser to the eye....

Had a conversation with someone who ACTUALLY uses a laser in the medical profession. He considered them safe enough that he wanted one for his personal use. From my experience you might see the same effect that you recieve from being exposed to a photo flash unit when having your picture taken, or having one of the newer high intensity flashlights aimed in your eyes.


You have not read the links posted. Lasers can do damage without you realizing it initially. You can shine flashlights and take flash photos at aircraft all you want, there is a reason there is a law prohibiting lasers directed at aircraft, the concentrated beam can travel several hundred yards or more, and still cause temporary blindness.
My point is you have NO idea (even the user/owner may not know with complete certainty) what the energy output of a laser may be. Perhaps those who use a domestic brand may be with-in spec, but my guess is the bulk are made elsewhere where they can just slap on a compliance label.
I was under the impression that long-term exposure to sun-light was a main cause for cataracts, I don't feel at all confident that the medical community knows the cumulative long term effects of periodic exposure to lasers.
Also, Glenn has an excellent point, as I can see someone getting the laser at very close range, with-in 10 yds (Murphy's Law) and his scenario becomes a reality.

Boyd Allen
02-13-2011, 12:04 PM
Al,
We know the sun is up there. We may not be told that a laser is in use.

This discussion reminds me of the progression to the current safety equipment situation in auto racing. They didn't wake up one morning and realize that someone could get killed, they reacted to multiple deaths. As a general rule, I find that people who want to do something that has safety issues will find all sorts of ways to rationalize the risk. Heck, I see seemingly intelligent people that shoot without eye protection, or who only wear it because they are required to do so.

AJ300MAG
02-13-2011, 12:27 PM
You have not read the links posted. Lasers can do damage without you realizing it initially. You can shine flashlights and take flash photos at aircraft all you want, there is a reason there is a law prohibiting lasers directed at aircraft, the concentrated beam can travel several hundred yards or more, and still cause temporary blindness.
My point is you have NO idea (even the user/owner may not know with complete certainty) what the energy output of a laser may be. Perhaps those who use a domestic brand may be with-in spec, but my guess is the bulk are made elsewhere where they can just slap on a compliance label.
I was under the impression that long-term exposure to sun-light was a main cause for cataracts, I don't feel at all confident that the medical community knows the cumulative long term effects of periodic exposure to lasers.
Also, Glenn has an excellent point, as I can see someone getting the laser at very close range, with-in 10 yds (Murphy's Law) and his scenario becomes a reality.

Yes, I've read the link. The doctor states the area's of damage (pigmitation) had a 5 minute and a 15 minute exposure level. There was no actual damage done to the victim's visual aquity. The doctor also stated that normal human reflex would prevent someone from recieving damage to their eyes. He clearly stated that laser damage is a precieved issue, not based on actual results.

Vern
02-13-2011, 03:12 PM
Francis,
That sounds good but its not realistic.
I knew there was on in use somewhere on the line.
Didnt know where exactly and the fact that the terrain at the range put me at eye level with a bench when I was standing upright makes all of the dont look into the laser void. If it were on a dead flat range no problem.

But like Glenn said ranges will ignore the problem along with the Asso. then when someone gets hurt and sues well we all know where that will get us, but then again I guess they figure thats what insurance is for. And it is until they find these posts then it just becomes negligence.

And while many seem to think its not such a big deal I CHALLENGE everyone that wants to use one to walk out 10-25-50 yards and look directly into it.
And before you say no one looks into it on purpose thats just it you can find out exactly what it is when its done accidentally.

Last item does anyone here remember the criminal charges brought against some kids some years back for shining it into the cockpit of a plane and supposedly temporarily blinding the pilot? Or was all that just just posturing?

AJ300MAG
02-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Vern it's pretty obvious you have an agenda and are more than willing to spin results in favor of you ideas. There's a world of difference between a pilot shooting an approach at night and being temporarily blinded by a laser (any bright flash of light will destroy your night vision for a short period ;) ) and on the other hand walking into a laser beam being used to set flags on a rifle range.

Vern
02-13-2011, 04:05 PM
The only agenda I have is that I walked into one and I know what the results were.
Im not trying to spin anything. I asked if anyone remembered.. because I didnt ever hear the final results or all the details only that there was an incident.
So for me its not what might happen with one of the lasers its what DID happen to me.

Vern
02-13-2011, 05:53 PM
Well Francis I did LOOK at the laser I was just looking in that direction when I stepped in front of it.
As far as permanent damage I dont know have not been to the Dr. the immediate damage was I could not see well enough to shoot and see flags with only one eye for the first relay.

Vern
02-13-2011, 06:59 PM
I apologize to anyone if I have been sharp, rude or otherwise condescending in this post. Just been grumpy lately and dont know why.

But anyway I did and do think its a great way to set flags but we do need something to keep people from getting hurt.
Once we can do that I will probably set mine that way also.

mkihne
02-13-2011, 07:03 PM
The report stated damage to the fovea(area of sharpest vision) which was only exposed to 60 seconds of green laser less than 5mw in strength. My green laser is a 20 mw model. Assuming a straight line relationship, maybe same damage with 15 seconds exposure? Lasers of greater than 100mw are readily available, which might then produce the same damage in a single exposure. I don't believe anyone would want any detectable damage to their retina under any circumstances.

You are correct that green laser damage is a percieved issue-the doctor perceived damage to the eye as a result of the experiment. If you don't think that is based on actual results, I guess I'm at a loss for words.

Lastly, we don't know the cumulative effect of brief exposures, the same problem we have with radiation from x-rays. How many brief exposures are you willing to be subjected to to test the threshold?

As far as this is applicable to our sport, it might be prudent to develop some standards if green lasers are to be allowed.
Safety glass lenses with wraparound can be found for about $25. Plastic lens glasses may not be effective for stronger wattage lasers. Range supplies glasses or each flag setter required to have thier own(whether you use laser or not).
Just some of the things to think about.

alinwa
02-13-2011, 07:17 PM
BAD INFORMATION!!!! I'VE BEEN CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE ARE USING LASERS OF ADEQUATE POWER TO DESTRY HUMAN TISSUE......

i'M LEAVING THE POST ENTIRE IN THE INTEREST OF CONTINUITY.









Two items of note;

Glasses "polarized" or filtered to block laser light are available for under ten bucks

And as far as I know the reason for not shining at planes is because they're laser guided. The come in riding on and responding to laser signals. Throwing random laser light around the underside of the plane is kinda' like injecting stray electricity into an electrical system.

I don't believe for one minute that it has any chance of blinding a pilot.

al

Vern
02-13-2011, 07:32 PM
Al are you suggesting that all people down range setting up flags should be required to purchase polarized glasses because someone might be using a laser?
Maybe you should google instead of just giving your opinion.
The case I referred to happend 5-10 years ago but here are just a few that happened last year.

This is not the one either but it shows the criminality and a boy was charged.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/8634327.Pilot__blinded__by_laser_as_holiday_jet_ca me_in_to_land___court_told/

Another Criminal case ( this one will get Jerry S going)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143371,00.html

This is not the case I am referring to but this on happened last year.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/09/25/laser-light-briefly-blinded-him-pilot-says.html

And yet another....
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Pilots-planes-endangered-by-DFW-laser-beam-108306284.html

Do some research folks instead of blindly giving opinions without knowledge PLEASE
and these were just 3 or 4 of many. Try the google for yourself. And these are only the pilots.

zippy06
02-13-2011, 07:38 PM
Gentlemen, You may be interested in knowing that the USAF ABYAL 1A airborne laser weapon is being considered for defunding. One prototype has been built housed in a 747 airframe. It uses a megawatt chemical iodine laser developed for shooting down ballistic missiles which could easily be converted to alternate uses such as setting flags. There would be no problem with vision damage as anyone looking at or even straying into the beam would be vaporized. Tim

Wow. Just what I am looking for. After I buy that MAGLEV Naval Artillery Gun....

Boyd Allen
02-13-2011, 07:39 PM
Right, it could never happen.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063342/Airline-pilots-blinded-laser-beams-come-land.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143371,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/lasers-causing-pilots-fly-blind-cases-faa-blinded-sky-airplanes-features-12669255

AJ300MAG
02-13-2011, 07:40 PM
The report stated damage to the fovea(area of sharpest vision) which was only exposed to 60 seconds of green laser less than 5mw in strength.


Dr. Robertson exposed the patientís retina to light from a commercially available Class 3A green laser with an average power measured at less than five milliwatts: 60 seconds to the fovea, the center of acute vision; five minutes to a site 5 degrees below the fovea; and 15 minutes to a site 5 degrees above the fovea. Dr. Robertson had color photographs taken of the eye before and after exposure to the laser.

Dr. Robertson examined the patientís eye 24 hours after laser exposure. He found retinal damage characterized by yellowish discoloration involving the pigment layer beneath the fovea and at the site of the 15-minute exposure above the fovea. Each of these sites developed a grainy texture within six days. Study of the eye tissue under a microscope also confirmed damage to the pigment layer in the laser-exposed regions.

Other than a discoloring issue are there any reported situations that state vision damage?

zippy06
02-13-2011, 07:46 PM
The laser is used for flag setting because it gives off a pinpoint beam. All one needs to do is stay out of the direct line between target and bench both laterally and vertically and at that moment refrain from looking at the laser emitting instrument. It's still better by far to have friends and relatives to help with the setting of flags. Remember the guy at the bench is the boss; the guy down range is the dummy. How tough can that be?
I'm usually down range. Got that in before Gammon came on here and laughed at me.

Francis. good.

zippy06
02-13-2011, 07:49 PM
Vern it's pretty obvious you have an agenda and are more than willing to spin results in favor of you ideas. There's a world of difference between a pilot shooting an approach at night and being temporarily blinded by a laser (any bright flash of light will destroy your night vision for a short period ;) ) and on the other hand walking into a laser beam being used to set flags on a rifle range.

AJ. Thank you.

Vern
02-13-2011, 07:53 PM
Francis, Zippy thats great when/if everyone knew where the laser was but many times we dont know where one is or that there even is one.
The laser that got me was actually owned by a friend of mine and even worse I knew it was there but I didnt know where no did I have any idea that the ground changed that much between the bench and the target. and for what its worth the owner has posted on this thread.

zippy06
02-13-2011, 07:59 PM
Right, it could never happen.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063342/Airline-pilots-blinded-laser-beams-come-land.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143371,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/lasers-causing-pilots-fly-blind-cases-faa-blinded-sky-airplanes-features-12669255

Boyd at 150 yards the beam is really dispersed. But, at night. I guess, it is really VERY Bright.
Pilots need some night vision. But, if they look down at a reading......or dial....

I mostly use the laser, when I don't have any help. Shooting alone....
I have been to the Super Shoot. Lots of help.
At my home range. I help the Target Crew with setting up the target frames. Help to move them. When I am done, I need to move my flags. Usually, on Friday everyone is gone. On Sat. they are eating lunch.....
Tim B.

zippy06
02-13-2011, 08:04 PM
Francis, Zippy thats great when/if everyone knew where the laser was but many times we dont know where one is or that there even is one.
The laser that got me was actually owned by a friend of mine and even worse I knew it was there but I didnt know where no did I have any idea that the ground changed that much between the bench and the target. and for what its worth the owner has posted on this thread.

Vern. That's cool.
I don't mean to be a jerk.
I live up in "The Great White North".
Also known as the democratic union socialist state of the great white north.
One guy told me the other day. I can't make my own bullets. I have to have a special stamp from the fbi.
Then this other guy told me. I can't make my own ammo. The gun powder is specially mixed and has serial number tags. And that's why you have to show ID to buy gun powder. So it is registered to you.

Vern
02-13-2011, 08:10 PM
Zippy are you serious about eh bullets?
That realllly sucks and should get old Jerry S going on another good post. Though I think it would make for another great post if you are serious.
Hey register them all to me at least only one of us will go down...hehehe

When it hit me I was on about the 40-50 yard line in a low spot.

zippy06
02-13-2011, 08:13 PM
Two items of note;

Glasses "polarized" or filtered to block laser light are available for under ten bucks

And as far as I know the reason for not shining at planes is because they're laser guided. The come in riding on and responding to laser signals. Throwing random laser light around the underside of the plane is kinda' like injecting stray electricity into an electrical system.

I don't believe for one minute that it has any chance of blinding a pilot.

al

That's what I thought. It's a control freak thing.
Or night vision thing......
Tim B.

zippy06
02-13-2011, 08:16 PM
Zippy are you serious about eh bullets?
That realllly sucks and should get old Jerry S going on another good post. Though I think it would make for another great post if you are serious.
Hey register them all to me at least only one of us will go down...hehehe

When it hit me I was on about the 40-50 yard line in a low spot.

Vern. You would not believe some of the stuff, people say up here. And they believe it.
The Lib....dnc crap. Is amazing.

And NO you can't have any. Make your own.

Oh yea. That was pretty close. 40-50 y.
OOOkkkaaayyy. I understand now.
Sorry for being a jerk.
Tim B.

zippy06
02-13-2011, 08:17 PM
Zippy are you serious about eh bullets?
That realllly sucks and should get old Jerry S going on another good post. Though I think it would make for another great post if you are serious.
Hey register them all to me at least only one of us will go down...hehehe

When it hit me I was on about the 40-50 yard line in a low spot.

Who's Jerry S ????
Tim B.

Vern
02-13-2011, 08:38 PM
Jerry Sharret.
He had a post going about the patriot act. I was deleted.
So he reposted. One of the links I sent, the charges were filed under the patriot act.

CharlieH
02-13-2011, 08:43 PM
Buy a cheap $5.00 laser pointer and shine it in your eye/eyes at 100 yards then let us know what you find, why work on conjecture and opinions when it's so easy to test for yourself? I found it would leave a floating spot for a few minutes even at 200 yards. But that was 10 years ago, maybe things have changed.
Fast forward to 2011 and my eye doctor said I now need cataract surgery in my right eye, I told him of a welding accident I had 20 years earlier and asked if that could have caused my condition, he said he had an 18 year old welder that had cataracts just as bad in both eyes. Point is, a bright light in the eyes can be slow in showing damage even if it's just a one time milli second accident, don't screw around with your eyes, it sucks being half blind.

Vern
02-13-2011, 08:44 PM
Vern. You would not believe some of the stuff, people say up here. And they believe it.
The Lib....dnc crap. Is amazing.

And NO you can't have any. Make your own.

Oh yea. That was pretty close. 40-50 y.
OOOkkkaaayyy. I understand now.
Sorry for being a jerk.
Tim B.


Not a problem Tim. But you make a good point for a post I did a year or so ago and am thinking about redoing.
That being we need more posts based on fact not opinion.
WE all have our opinions and we sometimes forget to look at the facts.
You know what they say about opinions, they are like bodily orifices. Everyone has at least one and some people are one.
Not directed at you but many of us at times including myself i am sure.
We might learn more and eliminate some of the wives tales and superstitions in our sport if we had more hard evidence.

mkihne
02-13-2011, 08:54 PM
Other than a discoloring issue are there any reported situations that state vision damage?

When a bananna discolors it is becoming rotten. When the pigmented layer(visual layer) in your retina discolors, it is becoming rotten.
Last sentence in your quoted post(Study of the eye tissue under a microscope also confirmed DAMAGE to the pigment layer in the laser-exposed regions.);)

alinwa
02-14-2011, 04:13 AM
Well, like most things you can take from it what you will.......

http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php/5028-Laser-pointers-blinding-pilots-Sounds-implausible/page3

al

alinwa
02-14-2011, 04:15 AM
wrong page

http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php/5028-Laser-pointers-blinding-pilots-Sounds-implausible

alinwa
02-14-2011, 04:31 AM
Al are you suggesting that all people down range setting up flags should be required to purchase polarized glasses because someone might be using a laser?
Maybe you should google instead of just giving your opinion.




BAD INFORMATION!!!! I'VE BEEN CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE ARE USING LASERS OF ADEQUATE POWER TO DESTROY HUMAN TISSUE......

i'M LEAVING THE POST ENTIRE IN THE INTEREST OF CONTINUITY.



No. but I still can't really see the problem. I work with lasers, they won't harm your eyes is the point. If I was worried about it I'd wear the glasses at work.

All this stuff about dazzling small craft pilots is kinda' off topic from my perspective..... I was thinking of airliners when I wrote my post about lasers incapacitating a plane. On the subject of dazzling pilots this problem was even bigger back when the Q-beam hand-held spotlights first came out. Yes bright lights can dazzle a pilot. And I use the term "dazzle" advisedly, in this day of cigarettes and alcohol being "diseases" and junk science giving credibility to all sorts of medical pseudomaladies from ADD to "Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome" I guess it's probably OK to lump "dazzle" in with "blind."

I'm sure that once a person's been "blinded" by a laser beam he's then eligible for money from the rest of us....

these days

al

RJM
02-14-2011, 08:06 AM
How do you use a laser to set flags without running the risk of looking straight back at it & frying your retina?
Regards, Ron

I'm the guy that brought up the safety aspect in post #4. My point was: Why run the risk - eye sight is too valuable. It's not just the laser - the eye focuses the image in the retina. Ever burn ants with sunlight & a magnifying glass as a kid?

I work with 100mw red lasers (and mirrors) which are not "safe" without special glasses. My glasses block ALL red light, not just some of it & I wouldn't think of not wearing them, OSHA or not.

For consumer devises, the limit is 5mw, and they should all say something like, "DANGER Avoid direct contact". What about that is hard to understand?

Regards,
Ron

AJ300MAG
02-14-2011, 11:51 AM
Buy a cheap $5.00 laser pointer and shine it in your eye/eyes at 100 yards then let us know what you find, why work on conjecture and opinions when it's so easy to test for yourself? I found it would leave a floating spot for a few minutes even at 200 yards. But that was 10 years ago, maybe things have changed.
Fast forward to 2011 and my eye doctor said I now need cataract surgery in my right eye, I told him of a welding accident I had 20 years earlier and asked if that could have caused my condition, he said he had an 18 year old welder that had cataracts just as bad in both eyes. Point is, a bright light in the eyes can be slow in showing damage even if it's just a one time milli second accident, don't screw around with your eyes, it sucks being half blind.

Charlie I've been a glaucoma suspect my entire adult life. The eye pressures have remained untreated because the battery of tests I go through have shown no damage has been done to my vision at this point. I use laser alignment equipment at work and have used a laser to set my flags the past two season. I've zapped myself a couple of times accidently with a green laser (WARNING... do not point the laser at a white wall. it's BRIGHT!!! ) and haven't experienced any side effects. I'm gonna bounce this laser issue off my Ophthalmologists my next visit...

Boyd Allen
02-14-2011, 02:40 PM
I just got off the phone with someone who uses a green laser to set flags. He has rigged a remote to the laser, and he only turns it on when he can see who might be in, or approaching his lane, in other words, when he is looking back toward the bench. I think that this is a good idea. That way one could actively prevent another shooter from being accidentally flashed.

CharlieH
02-14-2011, 04:52 PM
Hi Al, Ophthalmologists, that was the word I had no idea how to spell, but eye doctor I could handle. There are also a lot of different ways describe "law suit", but "HELL" is what I call it. Your Ophthalmologist better say it's perfectly safe to look into a laser or your risking "HELL" and losing everything. I know of one BR shooter that would sue you in a second if he got "zapped", ---it's the way he lives large.
Anyway, I shouldn't have posted anything from the start, you guys will sort it all out.
I hope you eyes stay strong!
Charlie

gacamp
02-14-2011, 06:06 PM
You guys with the those "cool green lasers" have it when you are shooting alone but I firmly feel that at Benchrest matches they should not be allowed. Come on guys, setting flags is not rocket science, shouting, waving arms, radios, phones etc. all allow flags to be set accurately without any potential danger to others on the range. In my mind none of the links or anecdotal evidence prove or disprove whether these things are potentially dangerous or not but why put others in possible danger when it is absoulutely not necessary, it just seem selfish and uncaring to me. The suggestions that all competitors either wear saftey glasses while setting flags, look out for benches with lasers set up, or just not look up except in our own shooting lane, are ludicrous to the point of being laughable.

What do you advocates suggest for the range crew while they are working down range which they will almost invarialbly be doing while flags are being set up? Answer that.

I do have one suggestion for laser users at matches, you can set you flags after dark when every one else is off the range, those little green light would look cool then.

CharlieH
02-14-2011, 06:54 PM
Francis, Your the best Damn Yankee I ever met. If every Yankee was as smart as you, I might actually listen to "the way we do it up north" speech. lol Are you going to Dublin? I'll buy dinner.
Charlie

Vern
02-14-2011, 07:32 PM
I will offer one thought.
IF lasers have no effect on your eyes why do all lasers have warnings not to point them at the eye or look into them?
Al do us a favor. Make a video of you shining a laser directly into your eye for 5secs and then 5 min and let us see the effects for ourself, that is since you think there is NO danger. Put your laser where you eye is, sort of like putting your money where your mouth is.

LHSmith
02-14-2011, 07:40 PM
No. but I still can't really see the problem. I work with lasers, they won't harm your eyes is the point. If I was worried about it I'd wear the glasses at work.

All this stuff about dazzling small craft pilots is kinda' off topic from my perspective..... I was thinking of airliners when I wrote my post about lasers incapacitating a plane. On the subject of dazzling pilots this problem was even bigger back when the Q-beam hand-held spotlights first came out. Yes bright lights can dazzle a pilot. And I use the term "dazzle" advisedly, in this day of cigarettes and alcohol being "diseases" and junk science giving credibility to all sorts of medical pseudomaladies from ADD to "Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome" I guess it's probably OK to lump "dazzle" in with "blind."

I'm sure that once a person's been "blinded" by a laser beam he's then eligible for money from the rest of us....

these days

al

Since I'm the one who bought the "blind pilots" into the discussion, I was a skeptic of how this tiny laser could be capable of blinding a pilot hundreds of yards away. Apparently, it actually creates real havoc , yes even on the jumbos, because the beam gets wider with distance and when it strikes the windshield it actually causes it to glow BRIGHT GREEN. There's a website that shows a picture from the jets cockpit while "under pen-laser attack" and the windshield is brighter than the Vegas Strip, it affects equally the co-pilot.
Back to relevence: Aside from the possible permanent harm to someones eyes, using a laser may jeopordize another shooters performance for that match, through no fault of his own. Put yourself in Verns shoes. How would you have re-acted? Should it happen at a tournament? Well, maybe that's when it will finally be addressed by the Organizations.

CharlieH
02-14-2011, 08:11 PM
Francis, Well, I was thinking baby back ribs, but on the way down, I'll be on the look out, pretty sure I can score a possum on the half shell, it's just difficult to find the "sell by" date on road kill. But Cheryl is pretty good with the nose test, if it passes, we'll throw in the cooler.
Man! I hope ya'll can make!
Charlie

AJ300MAG
02-15-2011, 12:13 AM
Dwight a couple of things...

I belong to three gun clubs, shoot at another four plus a military installation. All of them REQUIRE saftey glasses be used while on the range.

My situation, I show up at the range an hour before the "official" time to open the gate. Then my counterpart and I clean up the range making it presentable. I then head downrange to hang target numbers and if need be replace shot-out target boards. From there I unload my gear, get the range house set up for the days match. We get the paperwork situated, draw bench assignments for those who are pre-registered and then get the computer and printer hooked up and running. I then set up my gear on the bench I was assigened. From there it's time to set my flags... using one of those dreaded lasers. There's only two of us at the range, my partner is tied up prepairing for registration. People start arriving at 8:00, I try to have my flags set by 8:30. Then it's to the range house to enter the competitors data into the computer and take care of all the other "stuff" a match director has to deal with. Between shooting, cleaning, entering data and printing out preliminary reaults after each match I also act as RO calling matches. After the match I compile the data, print out match results (hopefully correct the first try...) and then do the awards ceremony. Then it's time to pack all my gear (shooting and computer equipment) back into my truck and make a sweep of the range one last time making sure we leave it in better condition than it was in when we arrived. I'm usually the last one out of the gate..........

If I fall under your definition of selfish, your killing me here... :)

Please feel free to ease my workload so I have time to socialize while setting flags. I could use a break......

gacamp
02-15-2011, 06:14 AM
I feel for you Al, but I know where you are coming from as regards to the time involved with a match as I just finished working the range crew for our match this past weekend.
It must be lonely to not have one friend to help you set flags :D

Doug Penttinen
02-15-2011, 07:46 AM
Here is an idea, Since a person chooses to use a laser and he is a one man gang or even if he has a helper and everyone is worried about the effects of the laser and we do have alot of people down range why not vote to either have those individuals set there flags either first or last. Then they are the only one down range since it seems to be faster but might not hurt the person who is walking around or next to the person with the laser with his helper setting flags. With everybody walking around down range and people crossing your line and standing in front of your beam with out knowing it... Sounds safer to me...

jackie schmidt
02-15-2011, 09:35 AM
Francis, not to mention, on a cool hazy morning, they look cool as all heck shining out over the range.........jackie

AJ300MAG
02-15-2011, 10:04 AM
Ya Francis, I know.

I need to learn to learn how to use my time more constructively...

:D

stiller
02-15-2011, 03:52 PM
Facts on lasers:

1: Green lasers fall right in the middle of where your eye sees and your eye focuses.

2. 630 nm red lasers are on the end of where your eye sees and your eye focuses.

3. 670 nm red lasers, your eyes percieves 30% brightness and focuses all the energy.

4. CO2 lasers are 10,600 nm and WAY out of your eyes focus capability, it only appears as heat. The high power CO2 lasers will only burn you, but not focus on the retina.

5. Your eye basically quits focusing at 1600 nm, so any laser over that will not be as likely to harm your eye, but you also wont see it. This is what wavelength the military uses for eye-safe laser range finders.

6. FDA is the agency that controls laser issues. They have determined that anything over class 1 is potentially harmful. Any laser over 5 mw will be harmful.

7. Most the lasers that everyone are using are from 50 mw to 200 mw. Up close they will burn paper or light matches. THESE ARE TOO HIGH FOR EYE SAFETY AND ANYONE LOOKING INTO THEM WILL HAVE EYE DAMAGE. Even at 200 yards looking down the beam for even a few seconds can hurt you. Looking at the beam hit a piece of paper a few feet from your eyes can also be harmful.

8. The only glasses that will help are laser safety glasses for sure. Any sunglass that has 10% transmission in that waveband will reduce the affect by the percentage also. By the way, 10% is very dark. Most welding glass is 1% or so for acetyline gas welding.

IE 10% transmission in the green band X 200 mw = 20 mw at your eye, still too much.

mkihne
02-15-2011, 03:55 PM
Thank you, but some in this thread will still ask whether or not they are harmful.:D

stiller
02-15-2011, 03:58 PM
Thank you, but some in this thread will still ask whether or not they are harmful.:D

People can ask what ever or who ever they want. They are harmful if looked into and use of them in my opinion opens up the user to huge liabilities. I have dealt with lasers for years and was in charge of the safety issues for a few of our military contracts on them.

Jerry H
02-15-2011, 07:35 PM
http://i55.tinypic.com/3525eyx.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/20uzrpg.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/zjjxmo.jpg

alinwa
02-15-2011, 08:04 PM
I stand corrected. I own 6 construction lasers and 5-6 laser pointers in red and green and nothing I own will burn paper or start a match nor even make your hand warm if held in front of it.

It seems that my own laser arsenal is woefully inadequate!! :) :)


I honestly had no idea guys were using lasers of this wattage in the field. I have construction lasers and classroom lasers, NOTHING approaching this sort of stuff.

I WAS WRONG, please disregard my posts entirely.

I would delete them as poor information but will leave them up and perhaps go modify them.

al

Boyd Allen
02-15-2011, 09:09 PM
Jerry,
Thanks for sharing you expertise.
Boyd

Vern
02-15-2011, 09:23 PM
Stiller thanks for the REAL info. Hard to argue with facts.

Jerry H neat pics but no info.
Whats it all about

Jerry H
02-15-2011, 10:26 PM
Years ago before the laser days, we used an adapter to hold a flashlight to the eyepiece of the scope. You would look for the bright spot at the bench to set the flag with. I don't remember who sold them but I made my own. It is just a piece of delrin bored for a slip fit. They are ok for short distances and reasonably accurate. No where as good as a laser but still quicker than hand signals or screaming at each other as well as setting flags alone. I thought everyone had seen these before. They do work with a lot less of a safety issue. I suppose someone could look into the objective lens up close for awhile and be blinded by the light though. Nothing is perfect.

AJ300MAG
02-16-2011, 10:10 AM
Results: The scientific literature finds that laser eye injuries are uncommon from use of nonindustrial lasers. Furthermore, an eye injury from a regulated Class 2 or Class 3A by a transient sweep across the line of vision does not result in injury, but injury can occur with a direct intentional prolonged exposure. Conclusions: Patient's history of the length and type of laser exposure is important. A significant direct eye exposure to a laser, persistent after images, and decreased visual acuity should initiate urgent referral to an ophthalmologist for further ophthalmologic testing. Brief laser exposure or indirect exposures with complaints of headaches or blurry vision require other diagnostic explanations.

Use common sense when working with lasers....

gacamp
02-16-2011, 05:23 PM
Use common sense when working with lasers....

.... as in don't use them around unprotected people.

Glen Oakes
02-18-2011, 08:22 AM
Very interesting thread.

A couple of questions:
1) does anyone know of anyone whose eyes have been damaged by a laser being used to set flags?
2) does anyone know of any ranges, public or private, that regulate (i.e., restrict or ban) the use of lasers for setting flags?

Thanks,
Glen Oakes

jackie schmidt
02-18-2011, 12:27 PM
Pretty Enlightning.

Jerry has chimed in with the info that everybody needs, it is amazing how Facts can get in the way of a good argument. If he says that the lasers that most are using have the potential to harm eyes, perhaps this does need to be looked at to a greater degree by The NBRSA and IBS.

Maybe this is one of those arguments cut from the same mold as smoking in the loading area. You see shooters with a lit Cig in their mouth while operationg the handle of their powder charger. I am not sure if we have ever had a flash fire in the loading area because of this, but common sense would dictate that smoking around Rifle Powder is probably not a good idea.

But then, I don't smoke. I also don't own a Laser for setting flags. I was thinking of getting one. There are those that do will say, "stay out of my business", others will say, "it's no longer just your business if someone gets hurt".

Perhaps Jerry would be willing to write a comprehensive report to present to the NBRSA and IBS concerning what is, and what is not, harmful when it comes to Lasers. then the Sactioning Bodies could make a decision based on fact, not conjecture........jackie

Boyd Allen
02-18-2011, 12:48 PM
Of the fellows that have posted on this subject, it seems to me that the only one that has specific specialized knowledge about laser's potential hazards in this application is Jerry Stiller. Rereading his post, might be a good idea. As to who might have been hurt, I would think that the idea would be to prevent any injury, including the first one. Not that they are in any way the same, but I can remember the arguing that took place, years ago, when the range that I was on the board of, banned alcohol consumption on the premises, except for special occasions, where no shooting was to take place. It was almost as enlightening as listening to some old shooter argue against having to wear eye or ear protection, even though the requirement to do so was plainly stated in the rules. I should add that at the time I was in charge of the range.

Stonewall
02-18-2011, 02:32 PM
Laser attacks on Aircraft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/349414-l-sers-attacks-aircraft.html


:cool:

Glen Oakes
02-18-2011, 04:21 PM
Jackie. I concur.

I think we need to know and quantify the real dangers and liabilities of laser devices being used to set wind flags.

I do not want to see any of the following happen:
1) Someone be blinded or have their eyes damaged because of a laser device on a range.
2) Someone be the subject of litigation as a result of using one of the devices at a range.
3) See a club subjected to litigation should such an unfortunate event occur.

I think any one of the above three is sufficient reason for this matter to be fully addressed by the benchrest community and those who shoot at and/or direct the shooting at ranges that support benchrest competition.

Such an evaluation/determination would take someone more knowledgeable than me. I have a substantial background in physics but not an expert knowledge of this particular topic. That background leads me to have significant concerns regarding their safety as they are being used. I recognize that some of you do not think there is a problem. Perhaps not. I gather from the writings of others of you that you, also, have trepidations and/or real concerns.

Jackie, I fully support your earlier suggestion that Mr. Stiller and/or someone sufficiently knowledgeable develop a "paper" for presentation to either or both the IBS and NBRSA organizations for further actions on this matter. (Mr. Stiller, please pardon me as I do not intend to commit you to anything. But, your post No. 98 DID presents what I thought was the most factual/scientific info re: this subject.)

Guys -- a quantifier/explanation to what I've just written -- I do not shoot group benchrest -- it's just not "my thing". But, I do shoot accurate rifles and do like VFS. What I've just written expresses my concerns both as a rifle shooter and as a board member of the Tomball Gun Club. I DO NOT want anything to happen that would interfere with; (1) the Tomball Gun Club; (2) the TGC holding matches where you are welcomed; nor (3) the shooting sport(s) as a whole.

I don't know the answers but I think there are those among us who can develop those answers. I think, for all of us, we need to do so.

Glen Oakes

Roger T
02-18-2011, 05:54 PM
Saftey should be First. Now a thought/question. Why would it not be possible to have seperate setups (Non Lazer and Lazer) whichever order. With the Lazer setup I see no need to look back into the beam. Simply take a paddle (Ping Pong, Badmitten whatever)cover it with a corse matte (the corser the better)piece of whichever color construction paper your colored Lazer is visible with (a piece of brown corragated ruffed with a light sand paper would also work). The paddle could be hand held or mounted out to the side of your cart. Start at the rifle and follow the beam with the paddle as you walk down range. Just a thought until something better comes up.

zippy06
02-18-2011, 06:10 PM
Laser attacks on Aircraft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/349414-l-sers-attacks-aircraft.html


:cool:

Read it. Just opinions. Where is the ophthalmologist report....Eye doctor.
Now there was a case years ago. A Soviet Ship(in US waters neat Seattle, WA.) trained a targeting laser on a US Coast Guard Helo. A US Navy LT. Commander said his eyes were damaged. And it was back up with Doctor reports. As he was trying to get a disability discharge.
Apples and oranges.
Let's talk about EMI And Static electricity. Ever see the Vid. with the exploding gas can???? I have seen a couple.
Auburn Hills, MI. Bosch fuel lab. Burned to ground. Static Electricity.
1977 I was a gas station attendant. New law "NO SMOKING" during refuel. Could I get the City Police to put out their smokes. NO. And I was threatened.
Most gas station fires are from wrecks.
Hear about the cell phone disaster at a gas station?
Me neither.
More "Poe Me" BS.

zippy06
02-18-2011, 06:18 PM
.... as in don't use them around unprotected people.

Protect yourself. Wear your safety glasses.!!!!!!!!!!!

zippy06
02-18-2011, 06:19 PM
Of the fellows that have posted on this subject, it seems to me that the only one that has specific specialized knowledge about laser's potential hazards in this application is Jerry Stiller. Rereading his post, might be a good idea. As to who might have been hurt, I would think that the idea would be to prevent any injury, including the first one. Not that they are in any way the same, but I can remember the arguing that took place, years ago, when the range that I was on the board of, banned alcohol consumption on the premises, except for special occasions, where no shooting was to take place. It was almost as enlightening as listening to some old shooter argue against having to wear eye or ear protection, even though the requirement to do so was plainly stated in the rules. I should add that at the time I was in charge of the range.

Boyd. Thanks for reading my post.
Wear your safety glasses.

zippy06
02-18-2011, 06:21 PM
Jackie. I concur.

I think we need to know and quantify the real dangers and liabilities of laser devices being used to set wind flags.

I do not want to see any of the following happen:
1) Someone be blinded or have their eyes damaged because of a laser device on a range.
2) Someone be the subject of litigation as a result of using one of the devices at a range.
3) See a club subjected to litigation should such an unfortunate event occur.

I think any one of the above three is sufficient reason for this matter to be fully addressed by the benchrest community and those who shoot at and/or direct the shooting at ranges that support benchrest competition.

Such an evaluation/determination would take someone more knowledgeable than me. I have a substantial background in physics but not an expert knowledge of this particular topic. That background leads me to have significant concerns regarding their safety as they are being used. I recognize that some of you do not think there is a problem. Perhaps not. I gather from the writings of others of you that you, also, have trepidations and/or real concerns.

Jackie, I fully support your earlier suggestion that Mr. Stiller and/or someone sufficiently knowledgeable develop a "paper" for presentation to either or both the IBS and NBRSA organizations for further actions on this matter. (Mr. Stiller, please pardon me as I do not intend to commit you to anything. But, your post No. 98 DID presents what I thought was the most factual/scientific info re: this subject.)

Guys -- a quantifier/explanation to what I've just written -- I do not shoot group benchrest -- it's just not "my thing". But, I do shoot accurate rifles and do like VFS. What I've just written expresses my concerns both as a rifle shooter and as a board member of the Tomball Gun Club. I DO NOT want anything to happen that would interfere with; (1) the Tomball Gun Club; (2) the TGC holding matches where you are welcomed; nor (3) the shooting sport(s) as a whole.

I don't know the answers but I think there are those among us who can develop those answers. I think, for all of us, we need to do so.

Glen Oakes

Glen. Are you running for office?
Wear your safety glasses.!!!!!!

zippy06
02-18-2011, 06:26 PM
Saftey should be First. Now a thought/question. Why would it not be possible to have seperate setups (Non Lazer and Lazer) whichever order. With the Lazer setup I see no need to look back into the beam. Simply take a paddle (Ping Pong, Badmitten whatever)cover it with a corse matte (the corser the better)piece of whichever color construction paper your colored Lazer is visible with (a piece of brown corragated ruffed with a light sand paper would also work). The paddle could be hand held or mounted out to the side of your cart. Start at the rifle and follow the beam with the paddle as you walk down range. Just a thought until something better comes up.

Roger. I usually use my laser when most people are gone.
For alignment purposes. A Standard USA Beer Gut works just fine. I walk done. Turn around a few times to check alignment. Place a flag. Or 2. Hang my target. 200y.
And walk back. Check the balance of tail fin and surveyors tail.....
Oh, yea. Wear your safety glasses!!!!

zippy06
02-18-2011, 06:30 PM
OMG!!!!!!!!!RRRUUNNNN!
Killer Asteroids on Collision Course with Earth?
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4545846/killer-asteroids-on-collision-course-with-earth/

Oh Yea. Wear your safety Glasses.!!!!!!!!!!!

Vern
02-18-2011, 06:33 PM
Quote by Stiller"8. The only glasses that will help are laser safety glasses for sure. Any sunglass that has 10% transmission in that waveband will reduce the affect by the percentage also. By the way, 10% is very dark. Most welding glass is 1% or so for acetyline gas welding."

Zippy myabe you should read more carefully or make your posts a little more detailed.

Regular safety glasses dont help anything.

Glen Oakes
02-18-2011, 06:43 PM
"zippy"

No, I'm not running for anything. And, if the club decides they've had enough of me after my current term ends in a couple of years, so be it. But, until they do, I'll do my best to work for the best interests of TGC. Should that lead to restrictions you don't like and/or agree with -- tough!.

All the best,

Glen

Stonewall
02-18-2011, 08:39 PM
"Aircraft Laser Illumination" edited version of FAA & Air Force video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtKSdy2KAW4

gacamp
02-18-2011, 10:01 PM
Protect yourself. Wear your safety glasses.!!!!!!!!!!!

So you feel that 50, 100, 200 other shooters should have to wear special safety glasses just so you can play with your laser on your beer gut, that's the selfishness I was talking about. Setting flags absolutely does not require the precision of a laser, it can be done with more than sufficient precision with existing techniques without possibly endangering others. If you can't set flags at 100 yards by yourself that it sad, and if no one will help you set at 200 that is even sadder.
I have shot at the Super Shoot and both Nationals several times and numerous regional matches and have never seen anyone wearing safety glasses while just setting out flags nor should they have to. We are already participating in an activity with inherent safety concerns, why add another for someone's convenience.
In my mind Jerry Stiller knowledge and warnings on lasers should be heeded.

zippy06
02-19-2011, 09:15 AM
You guys did not read my post. I used a green laser Yesterday.
And From Mon. to Thurs. I was around, 9 different lasers, welding sheet metal.
And I can still see to type this.
gacamp. No selfishness here. I was the only shooter at this range for 2 hrs.
The laser is a tool. Just like any other...

zippy06
02-19-2011, 09:20 AM
I am just saying. Sometime it's all BS.
Like the Condor and lead bullets in CA. Necropsy doc. Said Condor died of lead poisoning.
The Condor was shot to death.
The CA Legislature bans lead bullets in Condor area.
CA Fish and Game says no this will be for the whole state.

zippy06
02-19-2011, 09:41 AM
Stonewell good vid.
Everyone should watch it.
Effects are flash blindness, loss of night vision, startled pilot, glare, 50' for several seconds will cause no permanent damage, your flags are not straight, people are mad at you....

Oh Yea. Wear your safety Glasses.!!!!!!!!!!!
You are on a gun range.

zippy06
02-19-2011, 09:50 AM
Okay. I am done.
See ya at the Super Shoot.

Oh Yea. Wear your safety Glasses.!!!!!!!!!!!

Vern
02-19-2011, 05:32 PM
If zipper is going I think Ill stay home!

Vern
02-19-2011, 05:42 PM
again?

gacamp
02-19-2011, 05:59 PM
Stonewell good vid.
Everyone should watch it.
Effects are flash blindness, loss of night vision, startled pilot, glare, 50' for several seconds will cause no permanent damage, your flags are not straight, people are mad at you....

Oh Yea. Wear your safety Glasses.!!!!!!!!!!!
You are on a gun range.

When guns are not being shot! Is that too difficult for you to understand? Fine if you set them up by yourself, just leave it off when there is a crowd around. Is that too hard to understand?

jackie schmidt
02-19-2011, 07:27 PM
I can assure you that as a affiliate club of the NBRSA, The Tomball Gun Club will ask the Gulf Coast Region to submitt a agenda item to the Board of Directors to look into the safety concerns, and liabilities, of the use of Lasers while setting flags at Matches.........jackie

Vern
02-19-2011, 07:30 PM
Thanks Jackie, I had planned to bring that up at the Bluebonnet and the nats if I go.
But since you are aware and taking hold of this I will bow to your seniority (in more ways than one ;)

langenc
02-19-2011, 09:47 PM
Ain't it the truth but I got to tell ya, I don't think I have seen anything that looks any more goofy than most people with those Bluetooth earpieces.

Ditto- I usually wonder "who in the hexx is this"? Is he really that important that a call cnt be missed. This country has really
taken a big hit w/ phones over the last 10-15 yrs. Kids do something like 500+++ texts/DAY-every day. How many million $$ of taxpayers money buying phones for grade schoolers??You cant go down the cereal isle without a couple yahoos calling home to see if they need Cherrios. Have some balls-buy a box and take it home without checking.

We have one shooter that 'orders' his wife where to put the flags-"No the other way"!!!!

alinwa
02-19-2011, 10:21 PM
Ain't it the truth but I got to tell ya, I don't think I have seen anything that looks any more goofy than most people with those Bluetooth earpieces.

Ditto- I usually wonder "who in the hexx is this"? Is he really that important that a call cnt be missed. This country has really
taken a big hit w/ phones over the last 10-15 yrs. Kids do something like 500+++ texts/DAY-every day. How many million $$ of taxpayers money buying phones for grade schoolers??You cant go down the cereal isle without a couple yahoos calling home to see if they need Cherrios. Have some balls-buy a box and take it home without checking.

We have one shooter that 'orders' his wife where to put the flags-"No the other way"!!!!

Well you obviously don't own a business :)

al

Glen Oakes
02-21-2011, 03:00 PM
But, has no one seen the minutes of the 2010 NBRSA Annual Board Meeting for 9/24/10? If not, you might want to get a copy. The part pertinent to this thread says:

(Item No. 7, excerpted from the minutes) --

7. Re: Using Lasers for Setting Flags on a range: There is definitely a safety problem involved in the use of lasers. The Board agreed that each Clubís Match Director should decide if they want to allow the use of lasers at their club due to that safety problem. The Board voted unanimously to NOT allow the use of lasers to set flags at NBRSA National Competitions.

I thought you guys might want to know this.

Glen

Vern
02-21-2011, 06:51 PM
Well there you have it.
At least if I go to nats this year it wont be a problem.

jackie schmidt
02-21-2011, 07:35 PM
Darn, Glenn, I gotta get out more.........jackie

Vern
02-21-2011, 08:36 PM
True Glen except for the Nationals.
That makes them forbidden there.

zippy06
02-21-2011, 08:53 PM
Vern. If you can't go to the Super Shoot. I will see ya at the Nationals.
My point is Green lasers do not cause permanent damage. Looking the Sun or weld flash causes more harm.
I work around 8000 watt lasers with Helium and Argon cover gas. And I wear safety glasses. Never been flash burned. 10 yrs. worth.
The light emitted is less than Stainless Steel TIG. My eyes have a natural squint around Stainless TIG.
And it's real easy to avoid the light. Don't stare at it. Just keep walking....
We don't shoot in dark cock pits at night. Most ranges I have been to, cease fire, is at dusk.
Those new solar powered auto darkening hoods are nick named "Flash Hoods". And after welding up some flag poles. I understand why. They are not quick enough in switching. But, I have my safety glasses on. Not a problem. Don't hear anyone trying to outlaw them.

Vern
02-21-2011, 08:59 PM
Well zippy you seem to ignore all the facts presented by Stiller and others.
Stick with your opinions and ignore science and facts.
And no one in their right mind will be walking around with specialty safety glasses that can protect against lasers.
But then opinions are like bodily orifices every one has one

Read up they have been outlawed at the nationals.

Boyd Allen
02-21-2011, 10:06 PM
Man, this thing has legs. Are you sure that this isn't a Calfee post in disguise ;) Shall we switch to parallel nodes, and stopped muzzles? We could set a record.:)

Vern
02-21-2011, 10:23 PM
Hey its either that or Stephen Perry. I have never spoken to Calfee so I cant speak to that one.
But this thread is pretty much dead as far as anything else. It seems that there was enough scientific evidence given for most intelligent people to comprehend that they could lay aside opinions and deal with reality, and even proof that the NBRSA has dealt with the issue as far as the National match goes, that maybe they think that other ranges would follow their decision. Anyway Im done.
Figure maybe I should put someone on ignore since there is very little of value been offered here other than opinion.

stiller
02-21-2011, 10:29 PM
Zippy06, you seem to know all there is about lasers. As a test to prove that green laser of only 100mw wont hurt your eyes, a good test would be too look into one directly for 5 or 10 minutes, with your safety glasses on and tell us all about it. (seriously, I am kidding).

The thing that bothers me about your posts is that you try to assure the masses that there is no danger. How would you feel if one of your kids or best friends followed that great advice you give, mainly because you are a laser expert because you use high power CO2 lasers that cut metal, and looked into a laser and had permanent eye damage? I really doubt you are trying to mislead anyone and intentionally hurt someone, so I have to assume you just dont know a damn thing about wavelengths, power density, watts/cm, coherance, human eye effects etc. If I am wrong and you are trying to hurt someone with your advice, then hopefully what comes around goes around as they say.

A CO2 laser compared to a green laser is like comparing a cutting torch to a pair of tin snips. Both cut metal, dont work the same. CO2 lasers have very high power output in very high wavelengths, 10600nm. They are basically like a very precise plasma cutter. Very high power FOCUSED by a lense made for high band IR materials, such as zinc selenide, germanium or galium arsenide. Most of these lens you cant even see through. They cut metal by focusing energy on a small surface, super heating the plate and cutting it. Any brightness you see is the metal glowing, not the laser.

On the flip side, if CO2 laser energy hits a piece of glass that a human eye can see through, NOTHING HAPPENS, except maybe heating it up if high enough power. You eye cannot focus it on the retina etc. Worst case the outside surface of the eye feels the heat and thats about it. That is why you wear safety glasses only. The laser energy reflected wont hit your eye because the safety glass you see through is like a wall to CO2 wavelenths, and any sparks or debris wont hit your eyes because the safety glasses do their job. The green laser is just the opposite. Your eye focuses any point source to a sharp point on your retina, that is what the lens in an eye does. You take the 100mw or so of laser energy, focus it down to a .001 diameter circle, and you get a damn high energy density, enough to burn the retina and cause permanent damage. Regular safety glasses do nothing, they only look like a window and pass it on.

Whether you like it or not, there is a safety and assumed liabilty of using these. I suggest that anyone sued over using one in the future states that good ole Zippy knows his stuff and will be happy to cover any damages incurred.

Vern
02-21-2011, 10:42 PM
WELL said Stiller.
To bad zippy cant use his laser at the Nats.
While I have never had the slightest inclination to sue anyone for anything, If... I ended up in front of his laser I would be a rich man....

mkihne
02-22-2011, 11:42 AM
We have physics of lasers and we have histological information from an actual eye exposed to a green laser of defined power(and low power at that) for a documented period of time. Not much more to say, unless we need to go into the physiological function of the cells of the retina(complex and rather boring).

It sounds like my dog in the hunt(that this be evaluated and a determination be made before the sport may be hurt by an incident)is already being evaluated. Green lasers are likely a very efficient way to set flags. If allowed, the unaware need to be informed of their use at the vary least. An appropriate pair of safety glasses specific for the wavelength will not break the bank for anyone and whether or not they are required by the range or parent organization they will become part of my "kit" unless the range I am shooting at expressly forbids green lasers.

An interesting discussion to say the least(like Boyd mentioned, sure a lot of "legs" on this topic). At the vary least it is something to think about as we approach the season(some of us are lucky enough to be shooting already...I'm not one of those.)

loucksda
02-23-2011, 04:51 PM
Do "NOT" look at laser with remaining eye!

Dave