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TedH
01-25-2011, 01:51 AM
So......
Who thinks that 30BR will finally rise to the top and win a National Yardage, or continue to be a second class citizen?

j mckinnie
01-25-2011, 02:06 AM
nominate nd shoot is all yo have to do?????

pbike
01-25-2011, 08:58 AM
So......
Who thinks that 30BR will finally rise to the top and win a National Yardage, or continue to be a second class citizen?

It has allready done it. Many times over in Score, and It has won the IBS group 200 and 300 yard Nationals! http://internationalbenchrest.com/bak/OldResults/06results/UnionCounty/23natl/23group.htm

Thanks to Harley and Dean

Paul

Al Nyhus
01-25-2011, 09:18 AM
Not to mention that Jackie Schmidt and his 30BR shot the smallest Agg. in NBRSA history. :)

jackie schmidt
01-25-2011, 04:09 PM
Al, I sent Randy the targets, he had talked to enough people, and seen photographs of them, but he wanted to actually get the targets, gather up several experienced shooters, and measure them for himself. He was a tad perplexed, as are a lot of shooters.

I gave him permission to post the pictures. I suspect he will in the next day or so. He might also post the results of the average of all of their measurements, which I believed totaled eleven different measurements with several different "official" measuring devices..

We can discuss this after he post the pictures, and his comments.

Keep in mind, this has nothing to do with the NBRSA or any of it's official findings. That proccess is over with, and is history. But, many people have asked to see them. They are simply to be viewed as a really great agg that was shot on a July Day in Midland.

At the very least, they are a good example as to the capabilities of a 30BR. ...........jackie
.........

eww1350
01-25-2011, 05:25 PM
Al, I sent Randy the targets, he had talked to enough people, and seen photographs of them, but he wanted to actually get the targets, gather up several experienced shooters, and measure them for himself. He was a tad perplexed, as are a lot of shooters.

I gave him permission to post the pictures. I suspect he will in the next day or so. He might also post the results of the average of all of their measurements, which I believed totaled eleven different measurements with several different "official" measuring devices..

We can discuss this after he post the pictures, and his comments.

Keep in mind, this has nothing to do with the NBRSA or any of it's official findings. That proccess is over with, and is history. But, many people have asked to see them. They are simply to be viewed as a really great agg that was shot on a July Day in Midland.

At the very least, they are a good example as to the capabilities of a 30BR. ...........jackie
.........

It would be cool to see those targets scanned into a computer measuring program and see what they would measure when magnified to 50x...I have done it on a couple of small groups shot by my 30BR...it does make a difference in the final measurement...

tiny68
01-25-2011, 05:26 PM
That distinction is still held by the ppc?

I thought I remembered reading in Ratigan's book that Rex's HV agg (standing recording 100-5-5) was shot with a 22PPC-0.100. Could be wrong on that... Tim

Hal D.
01-25-2011, 06:11 PM
Maybe I missed something but it looks like Frank Scheboth won the 300 yard Hv and Russ Boop won the 300 yard LV and both of them were shooting 6ppc's according to the equipment lists? It also looks like the LV Grand was dominated by 6ppc's and the first four spots in the 2 gun were taken by 6ppc's. So the question is still in my mind of whether or not the 30 br can really agg well enough in a 10.5# rifle that a guy can win a weekend-long, 2 gun event solely shooting a 30br. Not being antagonistic here. Just genuinely curious.

Paul's post didn't say what year the 30 BR took that match, I believe it was 2006. That is not the only occasion that a 30 BR has been used exclusively to win a 2 gun event. Matter of fact, a 30 Grendl and a 30-30 Win (no, I'm not kidding) have done the same in the last couple years. All that said, the only reason I will shoot a LV 30 at a group (and I have shot them at the Nationals and SS) match is if it is my best shooting gun at the time. It's really a lot more recoil than I want to endure unless it could put me on top at the end of the weekend.

TedH
01-25-2011, 06:51 PM
Why would anyone post on a thread started by an instigator where the question is essentially a poll?
Who cares? This thing I know, based on history, Ted will not be the winner.

Dang!

Boyd Allen
01-25-2011, 07:36 PM
Maybe you 30 BR guys could use a strap on shoulder pad, and a slightly shorter stock to counter the recoil of a 10.5# rifle and the concentration of recoil that comes with the current crop of stocks that have such small butts. Just a thought.... If shoulders were protected, would the recoil still be an issue?

Al Nyhus
01-25-2011, 07:56 PM
Al, perhaps you're being facetious and if you are, I apologize. But I thought that when the records committee measured the targets, they came to the conclusion Jackie's agg was not a world record.

Pleading "Guilty" to the charge of being facetious....:D

mwezell
01-25-2011, 07:57 PM
Maybe you 30 BR guys could use a strap on shoulder pad, and a slightly shorter stock to counter the recoil of a 10.5# rifle and the concentration of recoil that comes with the current crop of stocks that have such small butts. Just a thought.... If shoulders were protected, would the recoil still be an issue?

I think it would. The amazing thing is they shoot well in spite of the upset from the recoil. I don't think pain is the issue...till it hits the nose or brow. That hurts!--Mike

Al Nyhus
01-25-2011, 08:05 PM
Jackie, I used the On Target software to measure them.
http://www.ontargetshooting.com/index.html

Incredible targets....:cool: -Al

Hal D.
01-25-2011, 08:06 PM
Maybe you 30 BR guys could use a strap on shoulder pad, and a slightly shorter stock to counter the recoil of a 10.5# rifle and the concentration of recoil that comes with the current crop of stocks that have such small butts. Just a thought.... If shoulders were protected, would the recoil still be an issue?

I do just that, as do Allie and Lee Euber. It helps no doubt, but not enough for me to want to do it on a regular basis.

zippy06
01-25-2011, 09:24 PM
I think it would. The amazing thing is they shoot well in spite of the upset from the recoil. I don't think pain is the issue...till it hits the nose or brow. That hurts!--Mike

Oh, yea. It hurts. .30 Gorillia......

jackie schmidt
01-25-2011, 10:38 PM
Al, I am sure that you came up with the exact same conclusion as that of everybody else that has seen those five targets. Well, almost everybody.........jackie

Al Nyhus
01-25-2011, 11:24 PM
Al, I am sure that you came up with the exact same conclusion as that of everybody else that has seen those five targets. Well, almost everybody.........jackie

Yessir. -Al

333smitty
01-25-2011, 11:31 PM
Yessir. -Al

+1

Tim Oltersdorf
01-25-2011, 11:58 PM
Gentlemen and 30 caliber shooters,
It is time that we cut to the chase and really define the crux of the argument of the 6mm vs 30 caliber. It boils down to the civilized verses the barbarian. Look at the 6mm shooter. Observe the spark of intelligence in his eyes, the overall superiority of his countenance; the high forehead obviously housing a large, brilliant brain. Contrast this with the appearance of the 30 caliber shooter. You see clouded, filmy eyes under large, overhanging supartoris ridges. His mouth hangs slack with a protruding tongue wet with copious drool. His stance is hunched and he scratches at the callouses on his right shoulder. The words of the 6mm shooter flow forth from his mouth like a Mozart sonata born forth on breath that smells like a beautiful perfumed woman. The 30 caliber shooter issues forth with guttural grunts laced with a fragrance reminiscent of weasel dung.
6MM shooters do not be complacent! The barbarians are at the gate. Rome fell. The Middle East fell to these decedents of Genghis Khan. Let us not do the same. Tim

jackie schmidt
01-25-2011, 11:58 PM
Goodgrouper, as I said before. This has nothing to do with the NBRSA, records, or any other official recognition. That time has passed. But, we shoot groups all the time, we measure them. We all know what a great set of targets look like. I think that since this is the first set of targets other than a 6mm or 22cal that have even been considered for record measurement in a long time, everybody will get a kick out of seeing them.

Wait untill Randy post the pictures. I suspect everybody will be scratching their heads. Or maybe not. Just pretend that they were never submitted for record consideration, it will make for an interesting discussion.........jackie

Donald
01-26-2011, 02:21 AM
I can't wait too see the targets. When will they be posted. As I recall the field measurment was considerably under Rex's Record shot back in what....1982 or thereabouts.

Donald

Vern
01-26-2011, 06:28 AM
Jackie, I used the On Target software to measure them.
http://www.ontargetshooting.com/index.html

Incredible targets....:cool: -Al

Al I went to the site but I didnt see any pricing for this software.
Is it a freebie?

andre3k
01-26-2011, 09:06 AM
Al I went to the site but I didnt see any pricing for this software.
Is it a freebie?
its free. just download and install

JerrySharrett
01-26-2011, 09:08 AM
Here's a brilliant idea for you 6mm wussies and 30 cal aficionados. Shoot a #1 Easter Buckshot, patched. It weighs 40.5 grains (plus the patch) and makes the same size hole as a 30 cal bullet.

R.G. Robinett
01-26-2011, 10:02 AM
Not to mention that Jackie Schmidt and his 30BR shot the smallest Agg. in NBRSA history. :)

Yes, and Terry Meyer and I held that set of targets in our grubby hands . . . and, using three different scoring devices, measured them . . . HHhhMmmmmmm . . . :p

Following receipt of the pictures of the targets, I just 'HAD' to have them to measure for my self - Jackie was kind enough to part with them, and trust them to my care.

Upon receipt, they were measured, using two 'official' (group) scoring devices, and the 'hillbilly' (calipers minus .298" - the average bullet-hole diameter) by four individuals, one of whom had never seen a group measuring device.

His result was most interesting: following some instruction, and advice to place the thirty caliber reticle over several individual bullet-holes - in order to see how the holes SHOULD 'fit' the reticle - he was turned loose with the targets, the device (our 'ol River City group measuring tool), and an ink pen - his result was within 0.004" of the range measured 0.1118, (which, for future reference, I will round up to .112 :eek:): that Agg. came out to a rounded-up 0.107!:cool:

Another teaser:
of our 11 measurements, the largest Aggregate was 0.122. Following the tally, the measurer stated, "I sure didn't want to give him anything." :( Note, the scorer should neither give, nor take. :) Even this AGG was just over the default protest value (0.009") required to either enlarge,or, reduce the size of a posted target or, AGG. I will, if I can obtain some help, post a new thread, including the pics which I initially received - Virg can you post them? BTW - ALL of our measurements (AGGS) were within +/- 0.010" of the range measured .112".


Two conclusions cam be drawn from this experience: With all the banter about group shooting being more precise than score shooting, I'd say that just the opposite is correct: the outcome of a score event is MUCH more precise and CLEAR than the outcome at a group event. In a discipline where precision is the watch-word, how can the discrepancy, between a range measured AGGREGATE and the Records Committee AGG., amount to over 0.040"?:confused: In short, at group events, there is seldom REAL winner . . . how would you like to loose HoF points by just a couple of measly thou? :p This points out the need to 'fix' an antiquated scoring system, long out performed by our equipment . . . or, we could just give everyone within 0.01" a first place trophy! :cool: When it comes to precision measurement of targets/Aggs., human error & judgement need to go the way of the Dodo . . .

The second conclusion: Jackie Schmidt's range measured .112" AGG IS the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard event!:eek::cool: This is inarguable . . . a truly GREAT shooting exhibition. Well done, Jackie! :cool: RG

mike in co
01-26-2011, 10:25 AM
a side question.....about the process. the records committee is how many people ? i thought i heard 5 ?

so not only is it significantly larger than the range measurement....but it is actually much bigger...in that the (5) person average is plus .04..........

i do not see how one qualified person can miss a measurement by .04.....

jackie and i are both from machinist background..... you may miss a measurement by .0005 when measureing small stuff....worst case by a whole .001. this is hard fixed stuff shafts, bushings and such. holes in paper are harder to deal with .....but not by a factor of 40........

it would appear we need to update the system.......
please note...i am not throwning stones at the committee.
it is the tools and the process.
when ten or more people measure one set of holes and cannot agree within 0.040 on the size...the process is broken.


mike in co

Dick Grosbier
01-26-2011, 10:25 AM
I look forward to actually seeing Jackie's targets

mike in co
01-26-2011, 10:29 AM
when the pic's are posted please put a scale in the pic..........a 308 bullet...a 6mm bullet.

as things move.....size can be distorted.....

mike i n co

JerrySharrett
01-26-2011, 10:41 AM
The second conclusion: Jackie Schmidt's range measured .112" AGG IS the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard event! This is inarguable . . . a truly GREAT shooting exhibition. Well done, Jackie! RG

Randy, after reading all that you wrote above, in simple language, was this a new record?? (I'm in agreement this was great shooting, but???)

Thanks

zippy06
01-26-2011, 10:53 AM
Al I went to the site but I didnt see any pricing for this software.
Is it a freebie?

Vern It is free. and works great.
Tim B.

zippy06
01-26-2011, 11:01 AM
The second conclusion: Jackie Schmidt's range measured .112" AGG IS the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard event!:eek::cool: This is inarguable . . . a truly GREAT shooting exhibition. Well done, Jackie! :cool: RG

This is all about "the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard".
Not one group but 5 groups....Just wanta make sure.
Tim B.

Edwin D
01-26-2011, 11:32 AM
RG,

right on.

I continually tell Mike and Rabon, "the HUMAN element must be eliminated"!

jackie schmidt
01-26-2011, 01:09 PM
Jerry, I am sitting here at lunch, reading this, and I can answer your question with authority.

NO, IT IS NOT A NEW RECORD, BECAUSE IN ORDER FOR SOMETHING TO BE A RECORD IT MUST PASS THE SCRUTINY OF THE RECORDS COMMITTEE. That proccess is over and done. The targets did not make it.

Granted, when I recieved the targets back, and looked at them, (keep in mind, I never actually saw all five as they were removed from the wailing wall for fear of damage) , I was taken aback, because they sure looked good to me. I am not stupid, I can measure a target. I also took them up to the Tomball Gun Club and had quite a few shooters, using our official scoring device, measure them, and everybody comes up with numbers that are more in line with the originol range measurements.

That is why I decided to get a ;learned opinion, and sent them to Randy.

But do keep in mind, the NBRSA has a strict chain of evidence structure, the minute I took poccession of those targets, the chain of evidence was broken.

That is why I have stated that for all considerations, they will be posted simply so everybody can take a look at what a 30BR is capable of. Any conclusions that shooters draw as to what they believe that actually measure is theirs and theirs alone, it has nothing to do with records, The NBRSA, or any other official standings.

They simply represent a great agg shot with a 30BR............JACKIE

mike in co
01-26-2011, 01:46 PM
Randy, after reading all that you wrote above, in simple language, was this a new record?? (I'm in agreement this was great shooting, but???)

Thanks

not an offical record for the sanctioning body...but it is still the smallest .....100yd 5x5 ag shot in a registered match........ just no recognition by the national sanctioning body.

Cheechako
01-26-2011, 03:25 PM
. . . This points out the need to 'fix' an antiquated scoring system, long out performed by our equipment . . .

What we need to fix is an antiquated distance system. I've advocated the elimination of 100 yard shooting altogether. It hasn't won me any friends and may have cost me a few. 100 yards is an insult to the point blank cartridges and rifles that we shoot today. When I have suggested this, most shooters will tell me, "Oh no. I really like shooting those tiny dots." So I suggest that we shoot at 50 yards. That's when they un-invite me to lunch.

JMHO

Ray

TedH
01-26-2011, 04:20 PM
Why would anyone post on a thread started by an instigator where the question is essentially a poll?
Who cares? This thing I know, based on history, Ted will not be the winner.

Man
That really hurt, it is still stinging 2 days later.
Ted

Dick Grosbier
01-26-2011, 05:02 PM
Man
That really hurt, it is still stinging 2 days later.
Ted

2 days and 4 Pages of posts later.

CYanchycki
01-26-2011, 06:38 PM
What ever the circustances are, from both sides, all I can say is this truly is a SAD DAY for group shooting and records.........................

Wow multiple people measuring after the record committee and such discrepincies..................................... .....................................

I wonder what would happen if a Canadian range joined the NBRSA, had a possible record shot and it was submitted???????????????????

SAD day indeed.

Calvin

JerrySharrett
01-26-2011, 07:32 PM
Man
That really hurt, it is still stinging 2 days later.
Ted
I think Francis thinks you are another Ted.

You do have a SBL don't you?

mturner
01-26-2011, 10:10 PM
My friend from NM shot a 30-30 and beat us all in Colorado last October. When his gun is on, it is on. But, he doesn't shoot it free recoil. Well, I remember he tried to at Albuquerque in late October (two weeks after the stomping he gave us in CO) after he couldn't get it to shoot because he thought maybe he was flinching. I'd have to ask him but I don't think it worked out too well. It just bucks too hard. But the 30 br has significantly less recoil than the 30-30 but enough recoil that most folks still "hang on to it" don't they?

If I'm forced to hang on to it, I find myself not watching the flags as much as my crosshair and my groups suffer significantly. So, if the 30 br can't be shot accurately with a free recoil method in a LV gun, it won't work for me. And I only have the brain power to use and keep one gun going all weekend so using a 30br for the HV stage and a 6ppc for the LV isn't in the cards I'm afraid.

I do shoot the 30-30 free recoil. The deal is I shoot the heavy 30-30 free recoil with no problem at all, but the light 30-30 is right on the edge. Sometimes it seems to shoot very well free recoil if I run around 3000 fps. The problem comes in when I push it up around 3200 fps or faster. At that point the heavy gun still works fine, but the light gun can become a 4 and 1 grouper.

The problem in Albuquerque was a borderlined stock issue. When I would squeeze the heavy stock to tight with the front rest, it caused a bullet of vertical that would not tune out. I have that gun out of the stock right now. I have removed the fast upward taper from the bottom of the forend so it will ride the front bag better.

Now the question is Colorado next October. Will I be there? Could it be possible to win the 2 gun three years in a row? My answers: I may be there, but I don't expect a three year win. You know I'll try my best.

Michael

jackie schmidt
01-26-2011, 10:13 PM
Goodgrouper, the official Records Committee Measurement came out to .154......jackie

pbike
01-26-2011, 10:35 PM
Goodgrouper, the official Records Committee Measurement came out to .154......jackie

Jeeez!!! It sure sounds like they had different targets to look at than the rest of the boys... Or somebody couldn't stomach a .30 holding the group aggregate record? MAybe they devided by 4 instead of 5? .154 x 4 = .616 .616/5 = .1232, Hmmmm?


Paul

rdawson
01-26-2011, 11:49 PM
Gentlemen and 30 caliber shooters,
It is time that we cut to the chase and really define the crux of the argument of the 6mm vs 30 caliber. It boils down to the civilized verses the barbarian. Look at the 6mm shooter. Observe the spark of intelligence in his eyes, the overall superiority of his countenance; the high forehead obviously housing a large, brilliant brain. Contrast this with the appearance of the 30 caliber shooter. You see clouded, filmy eyes under large, overhanging supartoris ridges. His mouth hangs slack with a protruding tongue wet with copious drool. His stance is hunched and he scratches at the callouses on his right shoulder. The words of the 6mm shooter flow forth from his mouth like a Mozart sonata born forth on breath that smells like a beautiful perfumed woman. The 30 caliber shooter issues forth with guttural grunts laced with a fragrance reminiscent of weasel dung.
6MM shooters do not be complacent! The barbarians are at the gate. Rome fell. The Middle East fell to these decedents of Genghis Khan. Let us not do the same. Tim

Tim, you always come up with the funniest posts, but this one will go down as a classic. I was laughing so hard I could barely read it to my wife. Good one buddy.

Ray Dawson

Steve Grosvenor
01-27-2011, 07:15 AM
Goodgrouper, the official Records Committee Measurement came out to .154......jackie

Kinnda goes to a old saying "I can beat everybody but the officials" to me that is waaaaayyyyyy fishey, I know that smell cause i do alot of fishing ;)

if they were that far off i would say there should be a alternate nonbias in any way commitee to measure, cause with that much discrepency someone needs to explain to the entire precision shooting world and i do mean world how THIS could ever happen???

CYanchycki
01-27-2011, 09:36 AM
if they were that far off i would say there should be a alternate nonbias in any way commitee to measure, cause with that much discrepency someone needs to explain to the entire precision shooting world and i do mean world how THIS could ever happen???

I agree 100% with the above statement. Records committee politicians are involved so we more than likely know what will come of it. Nothing. Just like any Political party or Government in office they should be held accountable for there actions.

There is only one way to handle records and that is with a independant body.

Calvin

Dave Coots
01-27-2011, 10:07 AM
IMO i think this thread is even worse than the one i posted on about the NBRSA's website. Five pages of whining about the measurement committee. I think some here have crossed the line questioning the integrety of the measuring committee. Others have implied the same. If you think anyone from that committee will come on here to defend themselves, don't hold your breath, i believe they are far more professional than to answer querries from this site. Take your complaints to the NBRSA. Better yet, get on the board or measuring committee and straighten things out. There are two sides to every story. Frankly, the only thing discussions like this do is make winter shorter, if you want to spend time reading.

I'd start on 30vs6ppc and group vs score annual discussions, but i'm not going there. Those discussions go on forever to a place called "nowhere". :rolleyes:

Pour it on, i can take it.)chill( BTW-i'm not even sure who all the guys on the measurement committee are. This is not a paid advertisement for them.

Later
Dave

jackie schmidt
01-27-2011, 10:59 AM
Dave, go back and read post #41.

I might add, even if by some quirk the entire hiearchy of the NBRSA said, 'maybe we should take another look at those targets', I would decline. Because they went through the procedure as laid out in our rule book, and we live, and die, by the rules as set forth that govern our Sanctioning Body.

My part in this discussion is the capabilities of the 30BR.

Joe Krupa
01-27-2011, 11:17 AM
I am somewhat dismayed about the comments here in regard to the measurement committee. It is very easy to fire an unsubstantiated shot at someone when you are not close to the situation. And even easier when you do it from behind a keyboard instead of standing in front of the guy who you are insulting. I have two comments:

1) It is more difficult to measure a small group than it is a large group. (You look at some small targets and say to yourself "that has to be a zero" and then you are upset when it comes back a .125.) And to the naked eye, a .30 caliber small group effectively looks smaller than a small 6mm group of the same measurement. Try measuring several zeroes over and over again and see how close you come to the same number. Do the same with a .750.

2) I know the guys on the measurement committee and I can say without hesitation that they are all above reproach. And they do this out of the love for the game and arenít compensated. They aren't political and could care less if you do it with a .17 or a .45. The proof (at least in my mind) is this: The head of the committee Gene Bukys shot a world record in 2009 in LV 200 at the NBRSA Nationals in St. Louis. I witnessed the feat. He never touched those targets because he didn't want anyone to question the outcome. They went directly to the other members of the committee. Gene's record was beaten in 2010 by Rabon Stewart at the Hog Roast. I processed those targets. Again Gene didn't want me to send them to him because he didnít want to touch them. He did this because he wanted to remove any perception of doubt about the process. And when it came back that Rabon (Ralph) had beaten the record, Gene was the first to congratulate him.

I would ask that you not ascribe your intents to otherís actions. These guys do this very well. You may not like the outcome, but the process works.

I know there are some guys who won't let go of this 6mm vs .30 discussion and each side has it proponents. Both cartridges shoot; and often very well and just as often not so well. And a lot of guys were rooting for Jackie because he is likeable and he shot it with a .30. I have had world record submissions come back not beating the record and it is disappointing. But Life goes on and competitors like Jackie come back at it even harder.

For you guys to lip lash the committee without knowing the process and the veracity of those doing it is unconscionable. And if you want to ask how dare I make these comments. I guess I dare because I am trying to be one of the guys making our sport more positive. Heck, I shot a world record agg. in five-shot unlimited a couple of years ago at an unregistered match. I was just happy that I witnessed it through my scope. That was enough for me. Ask yourself before you hit send if you are trying to make it better or just complain.

And if anyone wants to talk with me about this, call me. But, have your facts straight; and if possible, have some positive comments. Heck, we have more damn enemies outside of our sport that we should be aware of that are trying to make us go away than to spend our time beating up our own.

Joe Krupa

mturner
01-27-2011, 11:28 AM
Mike, that's what I was talking about. The LV, not the HV.

I figured it might have been, but it was the heavy gun with the problem that day. I shot the LV with no problem at Colorado and Albuquerque. It was my LV that placed 3rd in Alb., shooting it free recoil. I just kept it around 3000 fps. The 30 BR can shoot fine free recoil in LV trim. The forth place shooter of the LV 100 in Albuquerque that day was shooting a 30 BR free recoil. So the 30 BR can be shot free recoil in LV trim, but most shooters will tell you it is more of a handful than the HV.

Michael

Dick Grosbier
01-27-2011, 11:41 AM
Very well stated, and true Joe.

Dick Grosbier

jackie schmidt
01-27-2011, 01:52 PM
It is pretty obvious that there is a dissagreement among shooters as to just what is the proper way to ascertain the actual size of a given group.

We all know that you simply can't place calipers on the total spread and subtract bullet caliber, because bullets tend to cut a hole that is a little smaller as it passes through the paper. Typically, a 308 bullet will leave a black to black hole at about .297.

The reticle tool is supposed to compensate for this, because you are not just measuring one hole, you are measuring the accumulation of 5 holes, (or ten in Unlimited).

But, even this is apparently subject to operator error, or what ever. One Ranges "teen agg" might be a .230 somewhere else.

So here is what we could do. Have the NBRSA make a video, explaining the exact way that a reticle tool is supposed to be used. This could be distributed to each range that holds Registered Matches, and that would 'standardize' the procedures. That way, if a Match Report says that ole Sam shot a .180 agg, you don't have to put up with that "yeh, but everybody knows they measure small there".

The NBRSA could use sets of targets as examples. For instance, if they could take a set of record targets that have passed the scrutiny of the Records Committee, and show exactly how the measurements were asertained, and how close they were to the range measurements. Closeups of the actual measuring tool, and it's placement on the targets could be performed.

Then, they could take a set of targets that did not pass the scrutiny of the Records Committee, and show where the person who measured the targets went wrong. This would allow scorers throughout the different Regions to use the same methods, and we would have a more standardized scoring system in Group.

I am sure the NBRSA could aquire a set of targets that made a record, and use them as an example as the proper way to ascertain the true size of the groups and the Aggregate.

I would be glad to let them use my targets for the set that did not pass. Probably about as good of an example as you could come up with. The scorer could show closeups of each set as he measured each group, showing where the originol scorer got it right, or wrong as in the case of the targets that "didn't make the cut".

Someone would have to volunteer their time, and someone with experience in making videos could be hired if it took that. Maybe it would take an agenda item presented to the BOD. This procedure could be set forth in the Rule Book and become just as much of a part of Benchrest as any of the other Rules and Regs that govern our Sport.

If it is worth doing, it is worth doing right.....jackie

Stewart
01-27-2011, 05:19 PM
Joe told you of my Record and Gene's care in protecting the process from any questions of integrity. If you shoot a record you will sweat the process for months until you either make it or not. But you cannot be involved and not think it is a careful effort to protect those gone before and those who will be involved.

First a competitor cannot touch his targets; there are several steps at the range in order to certify the targets, the measurement, the officials and then a regional director must measure them so as to make sure they are with in .009. Then on to the Committee Chair, and then on to three measurement committee members for the actual measurement. Along the way steps are taken to eliminate anyone with a vested interest, or conflict and no one knows what the other has measured. At last the three members result is averaged and a record is established if the result was smaller than the existing record.

We may want to make a few improvements, but those must be carefully considered before we go making changes. The expansion of the committee is not free, it requires the transport of the targets to more people which exposes the targets to higher incidents of lost or damage, it has happened before. The change in scoring is not free, when we average we are subject to a single poor measurement, when we drop the top and bottom we will have to expand the committee and then we are back to those issues above.

I know we are having trouble measuring 30's because I own one that shoots great, my best shooting buddy, shoots 30's exclusively and has to protest way too many targets. Until that is fixed I shoot my 30s in score. But make no mistake a 30 will shoot right with a 6mm and there are as many advantages as negatives. They will flat shoot and there fore are in our future. Many new shooters start with 30s now and we want them to enjoy group shooting as well as score shooting, so we must learn how to effectively measure, any caliber that shows up to compete. Steps were taken last year to mark targets as to caliber, so they are more likely to be correct. This is an improvement.

My only comment on the Jackie targets is how proud I am of him for how well he shot that day, how positive he has taken this difficult situation and that we should consider some changes to make measurement better. Lastly there is no escalation in these matters which requires perfection; we may be better served to have a means to correct something if things go astray.

Edwin D
01-27-2011, 05:28 PM
goodgrouper,

there has NEVER been a doubt about the "whole measuring process"!

zippy06
01-27-2011, 06:37 PM
Jackie, Joe, Stewart.........and everyone.
Thanks for helping us understand the process......
Tim B.

Vern
01-27-2011, 06:54 PM
I would Love to have a .30BR but it will have to be next year. I would prefer to shoot 22ppc short and 30br but not until I can get some new barrels and even then I am all set up for the 6ppc.

Jackie is exactly right in his reply.
Jackie I applaud you as always you have integrity beyond reproach and what I believe what most in this world (not here on BRcentral) have forgotten and that is sportsman like conduct.
My hat is off to you as always a scholar and a gentleman well er :confused: one or the other of them anyway.
Thanks for being a great example, you and Butch L. both.

mturner
01-27-2011, 11:13 PM
I have read along with what's been said concerning the measuring of Jackie's targets, and until now, had stayed out of this. First, I would like to say that Jackie has been content with the records commitee findings. I personally know for a fact that I couldn't have been so content with things if I were in his shoes.

Here's my problem with this situation. Millions of dollars are spent each year in the USA to compete in the BR sport. We strive to improve accuracy, to the point that if we could honestly improve our aggs by .010" each year, we would be in hog heaven. Now we have a situation where there is a discrepancy of about .042". That is huge! If we can send a man to the moon, why can't we measure groups with accuracy down below .010"? We should at least be able to measure that well. I say it is extremely important to this sport to improve the accuracy of our measuring system. If we can't measure an agg to better than .040", then how can we even tell if our load is agging .030" better than the previous load? Does our load have to improve by a over .040" in order for us to tell me have made an improvement?

Jackie is a machinist, and a good one. If he can turn a part on a lathe to .0005" (and he can), what good would it do him if his measuring device had a resolution of .005"? This is the same situation we have in our sport. Why should we even strive for better accuracy than can be measured? Why do we try to improve our aggs, when in most cases our improvements are smaller than our measuring resolution?

I also say that when this measuring system is in place, Jackie's targets should be remeasured to determine if he has the new world record. If it seems that way, the previous agg of .1399" can be remeasured to determine which is really the record. I would think that those targets are still in existence.

If a remeasure isn't possible, then what's the point of a record commitee if the true records can't accurately be determined?

And remember there's nothing in this for me, I don't think I will ever break one of these records. I am content believing that I have the most accurate 30-30 in the world, even if I don't.

Michael

mturner
01-28-2011, 01:04 AM
Goodgrouper
We have a lot of very knowledgeable guys in this sport. Why can't one of them (or my brother if he can ever get a chance) write a program that takes a simple scanned image of high resolution, and just spit out the group size? The scanner would cost $100 or less. The program would be free or cheap if written by someone in the sport, or a good friend of a BR shooter. You would only have to tell it the caliber, and it would calculate from there. Now we have to wonder where we really placed in matches over the last 10 years. Maybe a time or two that we came in at top five, we really won, but will never know. Hey, winning isn't everything, but isn't winning at leat one reason we compete? Again, I'll try to give you a call one of these days.

Michael

ray porter
01-28-2011, 08:42 AM
i will bet that fellow that came on here a couple of years ago saying he could design a way to auto scan targets is laughing his fanny off about now. especially since he was run off here with tar and feathers.

Vern
01-28-2011, 09:02 AM
Maybe I am getting old or didnt read the post well enough but I thought that is what the software I downloaded yesterday does. That is measure a group from a scanner
Called On Target.
Previous page Post #19 by Al

Al Nyhus
01-28-2011, 05:54 PM
The Starrett KineScope could be just the ticket for accurate group measurements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UtCEb-F4Jk

Pete Wass
01-28-2011, 06:24 PM
I participated in an event not long ago that scored the targets with a scanner. I did not choose to stand in line for protests and I was not even close to winning so I opted to just leave.

I went through those targets last evening and plugged the ones I questioned. I found 4 that I believe should have "Gone" that were downgraded.

Based on that experience, I am not real hot on Electronig scoring. Let's say two of the 4 went, My place in the standings would have been somewhat better. I don't think this is a situation where a Machine can do things better.

skeetlee
01-28-2011, 07:37 PM
Here is something i am curios about, and it really has nothing to do with this subject directly. I don't know how many gentlemen are on the scoring committee, But what i would like to know is if each official score taker shares his measurement with the next score taker and so. Or are all the measurements kept private until all the committee members have determined there measurements? Not that this has anything to do with anything, i am just curious as to how this works. I didn't know if the measurements are shared among the committee or kept private until all members have measured? If so then is there one member who concludes the official measurement? Just curious. thanks Lee

John Kielly
01-28-2011, 08:29 PM
I don't have a horse in this race - the only BR I shoot is 1000 yards - but it seems to me that you decide on the technology that you'll use & live with the outcome.

Think how tedious many of our sports have become since replays, sensors & other technology initially brought in by TV broadcasters has been forced on us by them with all the consequential delays to the game, to say nothing that we've lost that lament, "The ref/umpire robbed us"! Tennis is delayed while we verify if the ball overlapped the line by a thousanth or missed it by the same amount. How many replays from every angle does it take until you decide if the quarterback made a forward movement or if a knee was down before the plane of the line....

Then we have the cost issue. An ISSF world cup can't be contested unless the mandated machines, targets & timing gear are used. How would it be if your match had to absorb or pass on the cost of a sports standard software & hardware package - it would be useless arguing that the setup Butch wrote & assembled was good enough? How much more will you pay for a match?

Dave Dowd
01-29-2011, 05:52 PM
So......
Who thinks that 30BR will finally rise to the top and win a National Yardage, or continue to be a second class citizen? I just recieved my NBRSA News with the Nationals Results. One 6.5 Grendal came in seventh place in Light Varmint. It was the only caliber other than 6PPC that made the top ten,in all four classes. No mention of the 30BR. Dave

TedH
01-29-2011, 09:10 PM
Dave is that score or group nationals?

JerrySharrett
01-29-2011, 09:18 PM
Dave is that score or group nationals?

Ted, that was Larry Feusse showing off again. This was the NBRSA Group Nats at the Hodgdon Range in Olathe, KS. He shoots his own 78 grain bullet behind a load of H498 and has placed high with it in several other shoots in the 2010 season.

TedH
01-29-2011, 09:28 PM
I knew he had to be getting good bullets from somewhere to shoot that well at the nationals. I the 6.5G case is the parent case for the 257TED.
I wonder how he gets his jackets.

zippy06
01-30-2011, 08:16 PM
Ted, that was Larry Feusse showing off again. This was the NBRSA Group Nats at the Hodgdon Range in Olathe, KS. He shoots his own 78 grain bullet behind a load of H498 and has placed high with it in several other shoots in the 2010 season.

I think it was a 6.5 Grendal for 2010.
And The .30 Gorilla for 2009. This was for the Michigan State Score Champ.......
The .30 Gorilla works. With some BIB 112's.....
Larry always has something going on.
And I am glad he lives "upNorth". Or my wallet would be a lot lighter.
Larry is a great guy.......