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skeetlee
12-07-2010, 07:00 AM
Whats the proper way to neck up a 6BR case to 30cal without causing a bunch of run out to the case? I am having some 30br brass made and i have noticed that the necked up cases can have as much as .020 run out after necking them up. There has to be a way to minimize this run out. I am also worried about how accurate the turned necks will be since there is so much run out in these cases. The necks all measure pretty close as far as neck thickness goes however. I am having trouble getting these cases 100% straight even after two firings. I am using a crush fit while fire forming but i still See up to .004 run out. I am going to start turning my own brass here this winter so i am just looking for tips and ideas, thus the reason for this post. Is there a die or something a guy can use to help support the case while necking it up to minimize the run out effects of the expander mandrel? It seems to me if there isn't there should be! Also how can i get these cases straight? I dont know what else to try. I lube the cases, i crush fit the brass on head space, i jam the bullets, and i use a stout load. Some of the brass is around .001 to .002 but a few pieces are still around .004 to .005 after two firings.
I had this same issue with the last batch of 30BR brass i had made, so it seems to be a common issue with this stuff. What do i need to know? thanks Lee

Keith Skjerdal
12-07-2010, 07:43 AM
Have you tried the cream-of-wheat method yet? Using a small charge of pistol powder, around 13.5g of W231, in a 6br case with a wee bit of klennex to hold the powder in the case and fired in a 30BR chamber. OK, I don't use COW, I use klennex :)

Joe Duke
12-07-2010, 08:05 AM
Lee, go back and search around until you find Jackie Schmidt's posts about making 30BR cases for the long neck 30BR. Basically, you make a fire forming barrel with a .332 neck. You do this by boring the neck area out with a chucking reamer. Then you fire form the cases via the cream of wheat method. What comes out is a perfectly straight case about 1.550 long. We use a reamer that cuts a neck long enough that we do not have to trim this neck back to 1.525 but you probably would have to trim your cases.

joe

Dick Grosbier
12-07-2010, 08:38 AM
Whats the proper way to neck up a 6BR case to 30cal without causing a bunch of run out to the case? I am having some 30br brass made and i have noticed that the necked up cases can have as much as .020 run out after necking them up.

Well as long as you have it made for you you are stuck with the way the person makes it. So the first thing you need to do if the runout worries you is start making your own brass. I recommend blowing it out with pistol powder as your first step. Like Joe Duke said above find Jackie's old post on the subject.

Dick

TonyinKY
12-07-2010, 09:16 AM
Runout after 2 firings?
Are these cases from the new blue box by any chance?
Do you have access to a few cases from the old paper box?
Can you have some of your new cases annealed?

I think at some point some of the Lapua 6BR brass began to not be annealed properly. Seems about the same time as the new blue box began. We found out last winter that some (20%+) cases of one batch had excessive runout after several firings. They were culled but we haven't checked our latest batches. I plan on annealing my next batch before I do anything else to them.

Anyone else having issues with runout on fired cases? Has anyone checked?
TonyinKY

KEITH MYERS
12-07-2010, 09:48 AM
Runout after 2 firings?
Are these cases from the new blue box by any chance?
Do you have access to a few cases from the old paper box?
Can you have some of your new cases annealed?

I think at some point some of the Lapua 6BR brass began to not be annealed properly. Seems about the same time as the new blue box began. We found out last winter that some (20%+) cases of one batch had excessive runout after several firings. They were culled but we haven't checked our latest batches. I plan on annealing my next batch before I do anything else to them.

Anyone else having issues with runout on fired cases? Has anyone checked?
TonyinKY

Here we go again. Only the cardboard box brass is any good. Whats next?

333smitty
12-07-2010, 12:48 PM
Lee, go back and search around until you find Jackie Schmidt's posts about making 30BR cases for the long neck 30BR. Basically, you make a fire forming barrel with a .332 neck. You do this by boring the neck area out with a chucking reamer. Then you fire form the cases via the cream of wheat method. What comes out is a perfectly straight case about 1.550 long. We use a reamer that cuts a neck long enough that we do not have to trim this neck back to 1.525 but you probably would have to trim your cases.

joe

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?47200-Making-30BR-out-of-6BR&highlight=30br+fireform

KEITH MYERS
12-07-2010, 06:13 PM
Thanks for the pic. You made my day!

skeetlee
12-07-2010, 06:57 PM
Thanks fellas thats some good reading. I am gearing up to turn my own brass this winter. Its time for me to learn anyway. The brass i get turned for me always seems to shoot just fine, but me being me, I'm just kinda picky and i like my brass to be straight. I have been reading an talking with some good folks about the proper procedures, and i think i will be just fine. It really doesn't seem all that hard. I have bucket fulls of 223 range brass from the city range so i have plenty to practice on, plus it will give me something to do this long winter! Now i just need to buy a few more tools and find a shot out 6br barrel. lee

Dick Grosbier
12-07-2010, 08:32 PM
They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

I gotta say I loved that .

Dick

alinwa
12-07-2010, 09:08 PM
My opinion......

You will ALWAYS end up with more runout when using a mandrel.

You will ALWAYS get less runout using COW

You will ALWAYS have people who don't know any better insisting it's all irrelevant.

(I bay'n making cases for a long time. And arguing with folks who feel their way is "just as good".......... all the while whining about crooked caseheads/annealing problems/cracks/inconsistent seating force/tuning problems/scope problems/rectal fissures etc etc........)

Ken Howell told me this a long time ago.

He's a fart smeller Ol' Kenny.....

al

333smitty
12-07-2010, 09:26 PM
In regards to seated bullet concentricity TB says,

"When shooting with the bullet into the lands, the lands themselves staighten the the bullet without forcing over travel."

"I let the dies and the lands take care of concenticity."

Source;

The Book Of Rifle Accuracy

Page 258

alinwa
12-08-2010, 01:57 AM
So far, zippo, zero, notta bit of evidence has been found!:eek:

.

Information of which you're not aware does not constitute "zippo, zero, notta bit of evidence".......

except in your own mind. ;)

al

Al Nyhus
12-08-2010, 07:18 AM
Lee: I've used every method out there to make 30BR cases...and some that haven't been discussed. ;) The method I favor is still the expand-up method over a mandrel, for several reasons. No need to go into the reasons, as that'll spin off into a whole 'nother direction. Case necks expanded over a mandrel will have excessive runout. But it's pretty simple to correct.

I use a neck bushing that's .001 under what the average case neck o.d. is after it's been expanded, then simply run the case back into the f.l. die with that bushing. That straightens the neck out relative to the case body and you can neck turn at that point. If you need to expand up a skosh for a better fit on the turning mandrel, you can now do so w/o inducing a lot of runout..since you're only expanding the neck a very small amount.

On the 30BR's, there is a 'lump' that forms at the bottom of the necks after expanding up from 6mm (that used to be the shoulder) that's about .060-.065 in height. I use a spacer setup to allow the bushing to have that much extra room so it doesn't jam into the 'lump'. You can do that by either raising the bushing in the die or spacing the top of the die back to let the bushing float upward. Doesn't take much to lash up something that will work.

Neck bushing size used is .335, but that may be different with the new blue boxed cases, as they have slightly thinner case necks.

Good shootin'. -Al

Boyd Allen
12-08-2010, 02:17 PM
Good points....Do your own research. Don't be intimidated if your results contradict what you have read or heard. Go with what works. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. Nothing is a substitute for practice.

Rick A.
12-08-2010, 02:36 PM
Amen!

mwezell
12-08-2010, 05:25 PM
FWIW, there was an article in Precision Shooting magazine 3-4 months ago about this with side by side comparisons. The tests showed marked improvement from straighter ammo. Again...FWIW--Mike Ezell

skeetlee
12-08-2010, 06:04 PM
I appreciate all the info i truly do. I don't have any idea myself if .004 run shoots as good as no run out. My main thing is to try my very best to produce the best possible cases. One less thing for me to think about i guess. What i am saying is, If there is a way to make perfect brass, then thats the way i want to make them. I don't see one way any more difficult than the other really. It has to be done one way or the other. I have relied on other folks to make my brass for me, but that has to stop. Don't get me wrong, its nice having good folks in your life that like making brass and don't charge me anything to do it, but i see this as part of the hole equation, and i need to learn to do this for myself, plus i know with out a doubt i can do it and do it properly. I am actually very skilled with my hands, i have just been a bit timid of actually doing it. Anyway i always appreciate the info you fellas provide, and i enjoy the conversation and company. I just want to make the best brass i possibly can, thus the reason for the post. thanks again fellas!! Lee

alinwa
12-08-2010, 10:09 PM
Well, you're a proponent Al, and this is a forum where people are free to add personal info, yet I've never seen anyone provide real proof that this matters and that includes you my friend. If there are personal experiments that have contradictory results to my own, where are they? Every time this topic is brought up on this board, the armchair theorists take some kind of defense such as the one you just used and then they tuck tail and disappear. I'm not looking for an argument, just for one of you guys who claim to be "shooters" to stand up and give us some evidence.

I've been a precision shooter and competitor in that arena in one form or another for 15 years. I've built numerous wildcats and tested many "theories" with them. I've bought all the gadgets and gizmos and run all kinds of experiments and not once have I seen a cartridge with .004" or .003" runout not shoot as good as the flatliners or provide any discernable difference that could be solely contributed to the straight case. This includes 6ppc's in registered comp from 100 to 200 yards all the way out to full custom big bores at 2100 yard score shoots. In fact, many of my best aggs and groups were shot with ammo that was .004" out. So I think I have somewhat of a platform to speak from when I say, "zero, zippo, notta".

I would love to see some evidence to the contrary. I really would. That would perhaps justify my expensive purchases to fix this so-called "problem". I have an open mind and love to learn new things. But thus far, I have to say your side has left the plate a bit empty thus far. And I think it's important for shooters reading any of this forum who are just starting out and trying to get info to be presented with all the facts and also to prevent them from wasting valuable learning curve time and hard earned cash on things that they can't fix and things that won't matter anyway. It would be much more beneficial to them and to you (if you compete or plan to) to spend 98% of your time perfecting your technique, keeping your gun in tune, and learning how to read the wind flags. These are the things that really matter. All the other stuff combined might make up the remaining 2%. Might!

Bottom line: be honest with yourself. Run your own experiments and learn from them. Don't just take the popular notion and except it as truth. If they prove out, great. You're ahead of the game. If they don't, you just learned more knowledge for yourself and saved yourself valuable time in the future. The key is being honest with yourself and accepting your results whatever they may be.

Well, I like the way you think in this thread..... and I believe you when you say you've tested as you have.

All's I can say is, you've obviously not read any of my stuff on the subject. I'm not "a proponent" of the common rhetoric about making straight ammunition, in fact I'm one who'll most often jump in to state that you can buy every gadget available and straighten 'til you're blue in the face and see zero gains.

Generally speaking I'm absolutely NOT a proponent of "straight" or "straightened" ammunition..... if you've got room anywhere in the system for .003 or .004 runout the SYSTEM is screwed up.

Generally speaking my way is completely different from all you've read or heard about "making straight ammunition."

In a nutshell I believe in FIT. And linearity. In a nutshell I believe that if you're somehow GETTING runout as listed, .003 or .004 you have a problem. This ammunition can't be "fixed."

My cases show immeasurable runout. More importantly my loaded rounds show immeasurable runout. It took me 20yrs and tens of thousands of dollars to accomplish this repeatably. I now expect it. Require it. But my requirement is very different than the commonly accepted methodology, if my rifle makes crooked brass I go after the SOURCE. I don't waste any time trying to square stuff up after the fact.

Crookedy cases but with good FIT are better than straight but sloppy cases.

And straight cases, straight loads with good FIT are even better.

I could (and am willing to) send you cases fired in many different rifles/barrels and of many different chamberings and let you check them for casehead squareness. And you'll find them to be SQUARE. I was having this same argument on this forum 15yrs ago with none other than the late Skip Otto, a proponent of squaring caseheads on the lathe, when last I measured casehead runout. After I'd found a way to eliminate it, not fix it.

Cases as they come from the factory are all out of square on every dimension. How can they NOT be? They're made on a hammermill! But from this base lump of clay one can well and truly MAKE straight well-fitted cases. If one knows how. Even using a mandrel one can make straight cases. With proper fit.

Poorly fitted and formed cases on the other hand exhibit all of the problems you listed and more....

BTW your list of 4 contributing factors is 'way inadequate. And none of the factors listed address the real issue of fit.

opinionsby


al

mwezell
12-09-2010, 01:08 AM
Thanks Mike. Can you recall what the test guns and calibers were?

No, but I'll see if I can find the issue and let ya know. I can't say that I totally agree with ammo needing to be perfectly straight, but it can't hurt. I've shot them into the same hole with both crooked and straight necks....and missed with both.--Mike

alinwa
12-09-2010, 02:22 AM
Sorry Al, I was busy fixing dinner and didn't have time to type more than a paragraph or two. Perhaps you could elaborate on it since I'm not sure exactly what you mean in some of your statements?

OK, let's just take the one example of the idea that the ejector spring can and does (in some cases) force the case (double entendre intended) out of line.....

IF the case has poor fit, in other words if it's loose in the chamber, then it can be forced off line by the spring pressure.

If, on the other hand it's fit is such that it's held in line (got nowhere to move to) then the ejector spring has no real effect.



I have to take this on a case-by-case (idea by idea??) basis because you've advanced several ideas in your post and each idea as you've presented it is valid. But my contention is that given proper FIT we can move into other areas of of (in)accuracy and more importantly, repeatability.

Here are two ideas, two illustrations as it were, of my position.

#1 is in regards to the PPC. (which is where Tony's perspective is based) The important thing about the PPC, the REASON for it's accuracy potential,has to do with FIT in my opinion..... it isn't just some magical amalgamation of ratios and capacities and angles. Nor is it just that PPC's are built straight and true. It's because the entire PPC "system" from start to finish, from making the cases from 220R cases to the custom fitted sizing dies kinda' automatically makes for good case formation and fit. The entire SYSTEM has evolved over many years with each weak link being strengthened bit by bit until we've got a fully realized "chain" of accuracy. Right now we've got a guy trying to promote a new ready-made 6PPC case. IMO it will never take off unless someone makes a SYSTEM which matches the new case. Just slopping a case into a chamber doesn't make it shoot.... in fact it will make the PPC SYSTEM break down, the result will be just another pretty accurate chambering.

#2 is in regard to case fit in a more general sense. Some years back Jim Carmichel and Co did a head-to-head accuracy test of various rifles for Outdoor Life. The structure was as follows; several factory rifles including a Savage, one custom-built Speedy Gonzales rifle and ALL USING FACTORY AMMO....

Of course the Savage rifle won the test which led to the "obvious" Redneck Conclusion of "why spend the money for one of Speedy's rifles???"

Now If I were to have built the custom rifle (or if Speedy had been given a heads-up) the procedure would have been to build the custom gun around the loaded ammunition. Promote scrupulous fit.

I don't have time to elaborate more and this partial statement of my position has probably only muddied the waters...... but suffice it to say that IN MY OPINION, fit is more important than "making straight rounds."

Maybe this can lead to more fruitful discussion :)

???

thanks

al

Boyd Allen
12-09-2010, 02:46 AM
Al,
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/01/shot-show-report-murdica-tests-new-norma-6ppc-brass/
You might want to rethink fully formed 6PPC brass not working.

JerrySharrett
12-09-2010, 06:20 AM
Thanks smitty.
But apparently, you, I, and TB don't know any better...................:rolleyes:

.

I'll bet my money that TB does!!!

Al Nyhus
12-09-2010, 07:21 AM
I've run a-b-a tests with 30BR brass that has significant neck runout (.004-ish) against necks that hardly wiggle the needle. With my 'normal' jam/seat (.025-ish) and neck clearance (.003) the wobblers plop right into the group..same as the straight ones.

This isn't to say straight necks aren't desireable...because they are. On a combo where you're jumping the bullet and using a smaller amount of neck clearance, it's probable the results could be 180 degrees from what I've seen.

If you're making 30BR cases by expanding over a mandrel, annealing before the initial firing is important.

TonyinKY
12-09-2010, 08:23 AM
If you're making 30BR cases by expanding over a mandrel, annealing before the initial firing is important.

Al,
Why? To keep runout to a minimum? Has it always been necessary?
I don't recall hearing anyone recommend this before. See my post #5 about runout on fired cases.
I shoot a 30BR long (shoulder forward .125) and my brass has to expand more than most.
Is everyone else annealing their 30BR before the initial firing?
Thanks,
Tony

skeetlee
12-09-2010, 12:21 PM
I haven't been but i have more than once looked at buying a new annealing unit. From what i read and believe it sounds like a great tool to have. Some tools that i own, i often wonder there worth. If i had a new annealing unit i dont think i would wonder that to often? I just wish they were not 500 bucks!! Lee

(This isn't to say straight necks aren't desireable...because they are.) Al i think thats what this is all about, at least for me. I do want the straightest cases i can possible produce. I am not about to throw out any of my cases just because the needle moves .003 over the case. heck i may not even separate them from the rest that only move .001. I just want to know the best way to approach this hole thing, and i have a pretty good picture now. thanks to all of you fine gentlemen. I dont know what i would do with out you all, and i really mean that. Anyway what i think i may try after talking with a good friend here is. I think i will shoot a loaded 6br case in one of my 30br barrels. That will lesson the force required when i have to run the case up onto the mandrel. then i will turn my brass. As far as annealing goes, i think its time to seriously look into an annealing machine. thanks lee

William Gilmore
12-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Please pardon my ignorance fellas. When you say runout of case necks are you holding the cases by the head, or using v blocks on the od? How does runout jibe with case neck thickness. Are the ones that run out the same ones with case necks that vary in thickness? Are the heads of the cases square with the od? How do you measure squareness with tapered cases? I am new to precision reloading and would really appreciate some instruction. If you want to flame someone, don't bother, I can turn you off any time I want.

I bought 100 Winchester .223 cases and checked all of them on a v block with a dial indicator and found every one of them to be remarkably free of runout. A good batch, or am I checking wrong? The necks were all very straight with less than .001 runout. I set the length so that my bullet ogive is contacting the rifling and made all the cases the same length within .001. After firing all the cases I checked the length and found them to be .003 to .004 longer than before firing. I neck sized and reset the length to my original dimension (2.213 col). I deburred the flash holes and chamfered the necks .001 to 003 inside and out. I weigh each charge of Varget and seat the bullets in a Lee die. Checking the runout of seated bullets gives .001 or less runout.

Thinking about the physics of the whole thing I kinda agree with alinwa that fit is the key to accuracy. The case headspaces on the shoulder and anything that happens behind the case head shouldn't have much if any effect on accuracy. I realize that I am a novice here, and am willing to be educated. I also feel that having ammunition that is as absolutely consistent in size, shape, capacity, length and all other dimensions is just a reasonable starting point in the quest for a perfectly round hole.

Al Nyhus
12-09-2010, 05:57 PM
Al, Why? To keep runout to a minimum? Has it always been necessary? I don't recall hearing anyone recommend this before. See my post #5 about runout on fired cases. I shoot a 30BR long (shoulder forward .125) and my brass has to expand more than most. Is everyone else annealing their 30BR before the initial firing?
Thanks, Tony

Tony, I've proven to my own satisfaction that 30BR cases that have been stress relieved (annealed) before the first firing show less runout. The process allows the brass to be flexible enough to more easily conform to the chamber and 'stay' that way once the pressure drops off.

The more you're moving the case, the more flexibility you need. My 30BRX has the shoulder blown forward .100. Our 30 WolfPups have the shoulder blown ahead .240. Might need a bit of flexibility to make that work......:D

A good exercise to try is this: take a f-formed case (that wasn't annealed) that has significant runout, anneal it, fire it again and compare the runout numbers to cases that were annealed before f-forming. I know what I find, but I don't want to predjudice you towards any results....try it yourself and see what happens with your situation.

But people are winning all over the country with 30BR's that have never been annealed, so it's not like it's a make or break deal. Most 30BR's are tuned with some amount of jam/seat, so the negative results of excessive runout (whatever that may be) are likely covered up....the jam/seat process aligning the bullet relative to the rifling.

Like a lot of things, there's no absolute right or wrong way. If you get the results you want, that's all that matters. :)

Good shootin'. -Al

alinwa
12-09-2010, 10:22 PM
Al,
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/01/shot-show-report-murdica-tests-new-norma-6ppc-brass/
You might want to rethink fully formed 6PPC brass not working.

I sais what I said with full knowledge of Lou's article and endorsement.

al

ncnbrsa
12-10-2010, 11:04 PM
Never use pistol powder to blow out rifle cases. It is not safe!!!!!!!! There have been people that found this out the hard way.
Ron

skeetlee
12-11-2010, 06:49 AM
Ron, please explain. I have used small amounts of it to blow 22 waldog cases out, with no bullet of course. I don't use this method any longer as i feel, the pistol powder could possibly cause damage to the throat area just like a loaded round. My thinking is that the pistol powder burns so much hotter than rifle powder, there has to be some effect from the extra heat? Maybe not, but this is how i think. Lee

ncnbrsa
12-11-2010, 10:37 AM
Lee
You had recommended using pistol powder and when doing so there was no load data. Someone takes your advice and fills case it could very easily blow rifle up. There is also possibility of double charge and it may also blow rifle up. When recommending this you are also making your self liable. There is no load data available in any loading manual and there is a good reason whether or not you put bullet in. I know of two cases where rifle has blown up doing this very thing, not me thank goodness.
Ron

skeetlee
12-11-2010, 11:48 AM
Ron
Were did i recommend using pistol powder? Maybe i did but i dont recall that. I have used pistol powder in the past but not very often. Like i said above i think even without using a bullet (which you never ever would while using pistol powder) i still think there could be some damage from the excess heat produced form the pistol powder. I dont know this, but one would think. I also would have to think that anyone that was advanced far enough into reloading were neck turning and blowing out cases were common practice, one would have at minimum a good head on the shoulders. Meaning one would be carefully enough and smart enough to use a little common since not to double charge a case or use the wrong powder for the task. if you will notice true riflemen are by average smart and intelligent folks. I really dont see how you could double charge a case if you were paying at least half attention to what you were doing. You have to place a cloth wad on top of the charge and if you were paying attention you would noticed if a case was double charged. Now with that said, things do happen i am aware of that. thats why you have to have 100% full attention to what the heck your doing anytime you are messing around with this stuff. If I'm down here loading and my kids come down, i completely stop what i am doing until they go back upstairs. I take no chances!! Anyway this is how i think. Some may disagree but thats cool!! thats our born right! I may have suggested pistol powder sometime in the past as it does work to an extent, but i don't commonly use this method any longer.
I will report that my brass that i had questions about in the beginning of this post is shooting just fine. I shot some real small groups the last couple of days with it. Lee

ncnbrsa
12-11-2010, 04:14 PM
Lee
That is the trouble you stated smart enough, careful enough and experienced. Everyone on this forum does not have the experience you have. I respect your knowledge of the sport I simply disagree with using pistol powder in rifle ammo of any kind.
Ron

skeetlee
12-11-2010, 04:38 PM
Ron, Fair enough!! Thanks for the insite. Lee

alinwa
12-11-2010, 06:29 PM
Lee
You had recommended using pistol powder and when doing so there was no load data. Someone takes your advice and fills case it could very easily blow rifle up. There is also possibility of double charge and it may also blow rifle up. When recommending this you are also making your self liable. There is no load data available in any loading manual and there is a good reason whether or not you put bullet in. I know of two cases where rifle has blown up doing this very thing, not me thank goodness.
Ron

Do yourself a favor and do some research before posting hyperbolic crap about which you have no clue. NOBODY has ever blown up a rifle blowing out cases with pistol powder.......... and nobody ever will.

try this link.... BUY and READ and UNDERSTAND the book and you'll perhaps rethink the idea that "there's no data available."

http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Forming-Custom-Cartridges-Handguns/dp/0964362309/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292110039&sr=8-1

al

ncnbrsa
12-11-2010, 11:07 PM
Some people will try anything and who is to say they will not put a bullet in. Check out these website post.
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/32433-accidents-pistols-blowing-up.html
Ron

alinwa
12-12-2010, 02:11 AM
Some people will try anything and who is to say they will not put a bullet in. Check out these website post.
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/32433-accidents-pistols-blowing-up.html
Ron

Ron, first and foremost I just want to apologize for the scalding tone of my post. Your reply didn't deserve my reaction.

BUT.... that said, we simply can't live our lives trying to protect the stupid! Look around us........

There are so many ways to hurt oneself reloading that I sometimes wonder "how does Big Brother let us keep doing it?" And of all the ways to hurt oneself, blowing out cases with pistol powder barely registers a blip on my Safety-Geek-O-Meter.

Just don't put a bullet in!

It's like "don't point it at your face" or "don't hold your hand in front of it" IMO.

Now I'll go over and read your link..... I just hadda' get the apology out

al

alinwa
12-12-2010, 02:15 AM
dZEEEPERs, every time I get dragged over to another forum I'm reminded why I only read this one!

Again, we're our own worst enemy.

al

alinwa
12-13-2010, 10:57 PM
Thanks Al. It would appear we agree on more things than I originally thought.
Say, do you shoot with the boys in Tacoma much? If you do, I'd like to come up there and try out that range next year and maybe I could buy you a drink afterwords? I think we could bore the hell out of the other people in the bar for hours!

Agreed :)

I've never shot on the range at Tacoma but I've shot with several of the shooters from up there.

I'm trying to get enough practice to try out the short range group thing but have been doing the 600yd game because it's close, just over an hour away. I've made it to every sanctioned match here at Tri-County and plan to continue. I'm excited to do the northern run but it's just far enough that I've not done it yet. Right now my Borden HV rifle is scabbed into a 600yd setup while I'm building a couple real guns. And my LV just sets there. The last time it was fired in comp was when I sent it to the SuperShoot for a shooter whose gun was hung up in customs.

Sad really.......... priorities....

al