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AndyTaber
07-24-2010, 10:56 AM
I have a Remington 700 in .223 w/heavy varmint barrel. After attending a couple of short range benchrest for score matches at the local club I thought I would give this a try. So, while the rifle is at the smith's getting trigger and bolt work, new crown and bolt handle and waiting on a harwood laminate stock to be pillar bedded, I'm still planning. I am thinking a Match grade barrel is in the near future and came across the 6x45 (6mm/.223) while searching the net. What i've read so far is the 6x45 was a popular benchrest round and did well back in the 70's. It has since been replaced by the 6ppc in competition. All of the newest buzz is in short barrel AR style rifles as a varmint round. If I am going to stick with the 223 case when I re-barrel, are there any advantages (other than a larger hole) for short range? It seems to basically come down to .224, 80 gr, 1-8 twist vs .243, 80 gr, 1-12 twist. Small diameter and long vs larger diameter and short. What is the upside and downside for each? What about barrel length? 20" vs 26" range?

virg
07-24-2010, 01:34 PM
If you are really interested in short range benchrest matches...get a good used or new "Benchrest" rifle. If you stick to benchrest you will shortly learn there is no substitute for a "real" benchrest rifle either in 30BR or 6ppc. Save your present rifle for hunting or just plain fun shooting. You'll save a lot of money and aggravation by getting the proper equipment to start with.

Good luck to ya!

virg

squeakie
07-24-2010, 01:44 PM
I have a Remington 700 in .223 w/heavy varmint barrel. After attending a couple of short range benchrest for score matches at the local club I thought I would give this a try. So, while the rifle is at the smith's getting trigger and bolt work, new crown and bolt handle and waiting on a harwood laminate stock to be pillar bedded, I'm still planning. I am thinking a Match grade barrel is in the near future and came across the 6x45 (6mm/.223) while searching the net. What i've read so far is the 6x45 was a popular benchrest round and did well back in the 70's. It has since been replaced by the 6ppc in competition. All of the newest buzz is in short barrel AR style rifles as a varmint round. If I am going to stick with the 223 case when I re-barrel, are there any advantages (other than a larger hole) for short range? It seems to basically come down to .224, 80 gr, 1-8 twist vs .243, 80 gr, 1-12 twist. Small diameter and long vs larger diameter and short. What is the upside and downside for each? What about barrel length? 20" vs 26" range?

here's what I did with my 700VS in .223. I had one that was just plain junk right out of the box, and anybody sane would have simply sent it back to Remington! It shot 4" groups with hand loads, and I thought the problem was me. So I gave it to friends of mine that bench rest shoot all the time. Each one called me to ask me how I got 4" groups! The chamber was cut about .007" off center and at an angle to boot. The barrel was so rough it tore up patches. Surprisingly the action was cut very square (all within .0005"), but they even failed to deburr the inside of the bolt seating area; thus allowing the bolt to seat on a large burr (well over .050"). I slugged the barrel per Bill Calfee's instructions in P.S. And drew up a diagram showing just where the bad spots were in the barrel. Ended up cutting the chamber end off the barrel completly and reaming a .223 N.M. chamber with a standard neck size. The muzzel was just as bad, and the barrel went from 26" to 20". I reworked the stock extensively and then pillar bedded it along with a rework of the recoil lug area. The rifle will shoot 55 grain Vmax bullets at 3250fps, and is a near perfect coyote gun. I can shoot it off hand with an almost perfect balance. The gun will now shoot low fives, and has an ever growing pile of coyotes under it. I think I lost about 75fps going from a 26" barrel to a 20" barrel, but the gun just handles so much better
gary

AndyTaber
07-24-2010, 03:10 PM
Back in the day when I bought a set of golf clubs, I wasn't looking to go pro, just have some fun with what I had and what I could afford. Same here. I know a "factory" rifle isn't on the same level as something that comes out of a custom shop, but I'm going to shoot what I have and enjoy every minute of it while I'm doing it. Which brings back the original question: Anyone out there that shot a 6x45 and what are your thoughts on it? Or stick with the .224 bullet? I am sure this combination went away for a reason, but that doesn't mean I can't have some fun with it.

skeetlee
07-24-2010, 05:11 PM
Andy
Don't take any of these guys the wrong way, they are just trying to tell you the scoop the right way from the start. Its not about going pro or anything even close, its about getting the most satisfaction for the dollar spent. Even if you go with your idea your going to spend some cash. why not spend the cash and go about it the proper way. In your post you mentioned the word benchrest, that tells us that your thinking or possably thinking about shooting some benchrest?? If your hole intent is varmint hunting, then maybe your on to something, i dont know. I am not familiar with the chambering your wanting to do.
Here is another idea you might consider. Why not do a 222 remington? The triple duce once ruled the benchrest arena, and for good reason. The 222 is a very accurate chambering and some still claim it will shoot with a ppc??
Your the boss on this one, so have fun. That is really whats its all about anyway. But like said above if real accuracy is your main goal, sell your stuff and buy a nice used benchrest rifle. There are a bunch of them on the market, and a nice used rem 700 benchrest rifle is only about 1200 bucks. I have even seen them for less. Fill us in on what you decide, and good shooting friend! Lee

Charles E
07-24-2010, 05:24 PM
How are you going to judge your final results? The score you get? winning? I just shot a club match, factory class. Won with a 242 score. In the benchrest class, that would have been good for dead last. Highest I've ever shot in Factory was a 249 score. Today, a .223 beat a .222 and another .223. Last match, I believe a .223 beat all five other factory guns.

In other words, we're not really shooting for X's, just 10s. The "worse" your gun, the less important caliber becomes. Yes, I can do the math, just trust me on this.

Now, you won't have a Factory rifle, you'll be shooting against the full blown ,30BR score rifles, You will not win, you will likely never place very high. So if winning or good placing is your goal, neither of your choices will help. If having fun is your goal, what caliber would you have the most fun with? That's all there is left, so pick that one.

BTW. the 6x47 was a bitch. Some days good, some days not. That's why there is a 6 PPC.

amamnn
07-24-2010, 09:56 PM
I was told over and over that I'd never get a .223 rem to shoot BR groups. So, naturally, the thing for me to do was to customize the H out of one and spend $$$$$ proving them wrong. and I did. Sorta. New barrel and bolt head and I have a 30BR..........Actually, I did get some pretty amazing groups out of it when it was a .223, but it never would agg, and that's the name of the game.

dickw22
07-25-2010, 08:30 AM
Andy,

You are lucky in that they run quite a few matches at your club. We have matches in Harrison which is 1-1/2 hours West of you and we normally have two matches a month during the summer.

My advice... when you get your gun back shoot it in matches for a while until you learn enough to know what you really want. You can stick a ton of money in a factory rifle and it will still never shoot like a real bench gun. We have a class for straight factory guns and another for factory guns that have been upgraded. You can shoot here against guns like your's.

Send me a PM and I will give you my email address and phone number. I suggest that you call me before you spend too much more money. FWIW I ain't selling nothin'.

Dick Wright
Precision Shooting magazine

zippy06
07-25-2010, 10:45 AM
Andy.
You are a lucky man. Every weekend in Michigan, there is a match, some where.
Get with Dick Wright. He knows. We are just trying to save you some money.
My factory gun sits in the safe. Has not been out in 2 yrs.
Try out the Harrison Club. They have a really nice set up there.
I hear this club is really nice. They put on a lot of matches.
http://www.ioscosportsmen.com/
And there is the Holton Gun and Bow club. And South there is WWCCA in Plymouth, MI.

AndyTaber
07-25-2010, 11:07 AM
Thanks to all for responding. I know everyone is being very helpful, but to be honest, I really haven't spent a whole lot so far. A fair amount was in the "periferals", upgrades to some of my reloading equipment, bore guide, cleaning rod, front rest, rear bag, etc, etc, . that I would need with any rifle. The people I have met at the Iosco Sportsmen's Club shoots, where I am a member, were very encouraging and helpful. I know I probably have what can only be desribed as "entry level" equipment, but I will be able to participate. I do know that it will make some holes in paper. I am doing a lot of reading and learning yet and do feel that someday, I will be moving up to something better. But in the meantime, I'm still going to try and make this thing shoot.

Kodzoff
07-25-2010, 12:43 PM
Andy:

leave the rifle in .223, bed it, barrel it, true it, do what you want with it, shoot ground hogs cans, or put a bipod on it and shoot NRA F/TR high power with it, but if you want to shoot short range benchrest, before you spend any money at all get with Mr. Wright, or read Mike Ratigan's book. I have been shooting for over 50 years, and four years ago I built my first real benchrest rifle and shot it, and I could not believe the results. To be even slightly competitive at benchrest your rifle - ammo - shooter combo needed to shoot better than .250 all day long in all conditions, and to win lately, you'll need .185 or better all day long. The shooter counts most, but without a rifle - ammo combo that minus shooter errors won't do that, you're "pissing in the wind" In the long term, it is the shooter not the gun and bench toys, but without a competitive gun and ammo, there will be a lot of frustration and not much fun. Try out some real 6ppc benchguns at practice days in your are, most guys will be more than helpful, and load some ammo at the range with the tools you see others using, (don't forget to talk to the best shooters about their favorite chamber reamer - bullet combo, which will determine your reloading resizing die etc, etc, etc, you'll come back here and thank all those who have commented. Benchrest is a great sport, but before you do anything, find a mentor!

squeakie
07-25-2010, 03:11 PM
Andy
Don't take any of these guys the wrong way, they are just trying to tell you the scoop the right way from the start. Its not about going pro or anything even close, its about getting the most satisfaction for the dollar spent. Even if you go with your idea your going to spend some cash. why not spend the cash and go about it the proper way. In your post you mentioned the word benchrest, that tells us that your thinking or possably thinking about shooting some benchrest?? If your hole intent is varmint hunting, then maybe your on to something, i dont know. I am not familiar with the chambering your wanting to do.
Here is another idea you might consider. Why not do a 222 remington? The triple duce once ruled the benchrest arena, and for good reason. The 222 is a very accurate chambering and some still claim it will shoot with a ppc??
Your the boss on this one, so have fun. That is really whats its all about anyway. But like said above if real accuracy is your main goal, sell your stuff and buy a nice used benchrest rifle. There are a bunch of them on the market, and a nice used rem 700 benchrest rifle is only about 1200 bucks. I have even seen them for less. Fill us in on what you decide, and good shooting friend! Lee

I see we kinda think the same. I built my 700VS for 300 yard canine shots max. The balance thing just happened, and I'm now hooked on that issue alone! But down the road I'll have a new barrel cut for it, and like you the .222 Remington is at the top of my list. I like the neck on the .222 better than the .223, but have thought about doing a .223 with a .222 neck on it using formed .222 mag brass. Maybe I get too many ideas in the back of my head! Whatever I go with, it will have a 1:12 twist barrel instead of the 1:14 twist rate
gary

Charles E
07-25-2010, 08:07 PM
I know I probably have what can only be desribed as "entry level" equipment, but I will be able to participate.

No, "entry level" would be something like a 40-X chambered in .30 BR for score, or 6 PPC for group. The only class you're "entry level" is "Modified Factory" and there, you may wind up shooting against some very precise stuff.


I am doing a lot of reading and learning yet and do feel that someday, I will be moving up to something better.

A lot of people, including me, have done just that. Unfortunately, this approach also involves a lot of "unlearning." The cost for hard-headedness is more time and money spent. The extra money is the easy part. The hard part is to unlearn all those things you thought was progress, It is hard to explain, but essentially, you find a whole bunch of things you get convinced matter. Some do, most don't.

What matters is having a competitive action & stock & trigger & scope. Brandwise, there are at least three of each just as good as the others. The rest is all bullets and barrels.

If you want a really significant test, buy 10 barrels, have then chambered up by the same 'smith. 25 rounds down each barrel will astound you as to *competitive* differences. Now change bullets from, say, a 7.5-ogive FB to one of the BTs. in a 6mm, or one of the 6-ogive 110s to one of the 10-ogive 118s in a .30. You'll see different performance with the 10 barrels.

That is significant competitive testing.

There is also bench technique. What you can get away with (i.e., "doesn't hurt") in the early days includes a lot of bad habits. They will be hard to unlearn, esp. because you've already "proven" they do work.

How do I know all this? I'm hard-headed too.

zippy06
07-25-2010, 08:10 PM
Andy. Glad to hear you are a member at Iosco.
I have not had the pleasure of visiting. It's a 4 hr drive for me.
But, a few shooters come down to WWCCA.
And they are a great bunch of people.

AndyTaber
07-25-2010, 09:45 PM
Tim B, If I'm learning anything here it is that there is a bunch of really serious, dedicated people in this sport. I have tried to read up on the categories on the IBS website to see where my configuration might fit, but it is not an easy read. I don't know if one of them is a beginners section or not. Kind of hard to attract new people to Benchrest if they have to sell the house to do it. I have the Holton match on my calendar and I'm thinking of driving over to watch. Much to learn.
Andy

pbike
07-25-2010, 10:15 PM
Andy. Glad to hear you are a member at Iosco.
I have not had the pleasure of visiting. It's a 4 hr drive for me.
But, a few shooters come down to WWCCA.
And they are a great bunch of people.

Skippy, It would be nice to see you shoot at Oscoda, While it is intresting to here that it is a 4 hour drive for you to go up there have you ever entertained the thought that it is also a 4 hour drive for Tom and a few others to come to WWCCA? On August 14 we have a 200, 300 yard State score match scheduled starting at 9am Dad and I will drive the 4 hours from Port Huron and Also help out while we're there. For us it's 4 hours to Holton, 3 hours to Harrison, 3 hours to Tawas, and 2 hours to WWCCA we regularly attend the 4 hour drive matches and occasionaly attend the others depending on scheduling. Travel is just one of the known expenses when competing in BR.

Paul

pbike
07-25-2010, 10:46 PM
Andy:

leave the rifle in .223, bed it, barrel it, true it, do what you want with it, shoot ground hogs cans, or put a bipod on it and shoot NRA F/TR high power with it, but if you want to shoot short range benchrest, before you spend any money at all get with Mr. Wright, or read Mike Ratigan's book. I have been shooting for over 50 years, and four years ago I built my first real benchrest rifle and shot it, and I could not believe the results. To be even slightly competitive at benchrest your rifle - ammo - shooter combo needed to shoot better than .250 all day long in all conditions, and to win lately, you'll need .185 or better all day long. The shooter counts most, but without a rifle - ammo combo that minus shooter errors won't do that, you're "pissing in the wind" In the long term, it is the shooter not the gun and bench toys, but without a competitive gun and ammo, there will be a lot of frustration and not much fun. Try out some real 6ppc benchguns at practice days in your are, most guys will be more than helpful, and load some ammo at the range with the tools you see others using, (don't forget to talk to the best shooters about their favorite chamber reamer - bullet combo, which will determine your reloading resizing die etc, etc, etc, you'll come back here and thank all those who have commented. Benchrest is a great sport, but before you do anything, find a mentor!

Andy has found mentors at the Iosco club. He's getting sound advice from good shooters, and to this date has yet to shoot a match. He is taking his Live varmint rifle, and getting it competitive in the Factory Custom class that we have at club level. He'll be able to learn BR and See if he likes it. The rifle will still be a good Varmint rifle and If BR takes a set in Andy, he can then get into a Full Blown BR rig. The Mentors Andy has found have all competed localy, regionaly and at the Nationals Level with wins at all those levels, in Score and group.

PAul

AndyTaber
07-26-2010, 08:05 AM
Paul, Looks like you're adding another job to your resume list. Some of these replies have me doing some searching on the different clubs around the state with scheduled competitions. There's enough to keep a person busy.

Andy