PDA

View Full Version : 4000 round ammo test



Butch Lambert
04-23-2010, 10:35 PM
This is a very good thread on rimfire ammo shot in a tunnel at 50 and 100yds. The rifle is a Bleiker.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8711043/m/9871088921
Butch

Roger T
04-24-2010, 09:16 AM
A good read thanks for the link.

Bill B
04-24-2010, 10:45 AM
Means nothing to me. Not a BR rifle, bench set-up? Cleaning regimine? I'm sure it was a fun waste of ammo for him.

Butch Lambert
04-24-2010, 12:30 PM
Bill B, does your thoughts parallel those of the other rimfire shooters? If that is the case the rest of us should get rid of our rimfires as they have no other use than to shoot BR.
They are now going to run the tests with various other rimfire rifles. Saeed has a climate controlled 100yd. tunnel with a large reloading room. Go to the home page of the forum and you will see the setup.
Bill B, tell Melvin hello as I haven't visited with him in a while.
Butch

Fred J
04-24-2010, 05:22 PM
Butch:
Him being in the UAE, implies, his funds are unlimited. That Bleiker alone, is around $5K US. There's a supplier in Hancock, TX, that sells them.

Bill B
04-24-2010, 05:48 PM
Butch,

It may mean something to someone, just not me, playing the game that we talk about here. I think most of us here have a pretty good idea of what is working (ammo-wise) for us. My 50 yard groups are quite a bit better with my Eley Black Box then what Saeed was getting. I don't know what is wrong with his rifle, set-up, etc. but if he thinks he has eliminated all the variables except for ammo - he hasn't. That's why his exercise means nothing to me.

I may see Melvin tomorrow as I'm going to visit Gordon.

Butch Lambert
04-24-2010, 06:57 PM
Bill B, Tell Gordon hello also. I think Saeed will find out that the ammo will work differently in the other rifles that he tests the same way.His tests were for the interest of the folks on his forum. I thought some on this forum might find an interest in it. I would imagine that with a Pappas rest and the rifle set up for it, you might see some really nice groups. As you can see it is not set up to be shot off the bench. I'm not so sure that it would not be competitive with your BR rimfire rifle with the proper BR stock and rest.
Fred, Saeed does make a little more money than I, but I don't hold that against him.
Butch

JACK CHASTAIN
04-24-2010, 11:47 PM
Bill B, Tell Gordon hello also. I think Saeed will find out that the ammo will work differently in the other rifles that he tests the same way.His tests were for the interest of the folks on his forum. I thought some on this forum might find an interest in it. I would imagine that with a Pappas rest and the rifle set up for it, you might see some really nice groups. As you can see it is not set up to be shot off the bench. I'm not so sure that it would not be competitive with your BR rimfire rifle with the proper BR stock and rest.
Fred, Saeed does make a little more money than I, but I don't hold that against him.
Butch

Butch the 100 yard enclosed test tunnel is fine! Someone over there is building a 1/4 mile drag strip, fully enclosed and air conditioned - now that's a test tunnel!

Roger T
04-25-2010, 11:14 AM
Could it be that Saeed is testing the Rifle NOT the ammo. just to show what a 5K rifle does or not. That is the impression I had :eek:

Butch Lambert
04-25-2010, 12:56 PM
Who knows Roger. It will be interesting to see as he starts testing with the other brands of rifles.
Butch

Butch Lambert
04-25-2010, 01:15 PM
Check the latest photos on this thread on the AR forum. Shows a very nice tunnel and a handicap with his bags and rest.
Butch

ifldned
04-25-2010, 01:55 PM
Thanks for the information presented Butch and Saeed. I find any and all information useful and utilize it like a piece of a puzzle and will help me improve my own results.
Saeed, you have a beautiful set-up and I'll be check out your website as it is quite unique from other firearms websites I've viewed so far.
thanks again,
ifldned

ifldned
04-25-2010, 09:20 PM
I have returned from shooting after and 25 years hiatus. I've tested recently every top and second grade ammo there is avalible on the market. I think I have come up with the same coclusions as yourself, 22lr is a fickle caliber to predict. I'm shooting a 54.18 Anshutz as well as a Womack full custom, 52 Winchester, both have proven very fine 5 shot groups at 50 and a 100 yards. I'm very appreciative of the time and effort you spent to give us the results of a Bleiker rifle shot with a two piece rest. I'm sorry that some benchrest shooters have not taken the hard fought information that you have obtained and not untilized it to their advantage. After all, we are are in pursuit of .000 groups
ifldned

J Pappas
04-25-2010, 09:50 PM
I have returned from shooting after and 25 years hiatus. I've tested recently every top and second grade ammo there is avalible on the market. I think I have come up with the same coclusions as yourself, 22lr is a fickle caliber to predict. I'm shooting a 54.18 Anshutz as well as a Womack full custom, 52 Winchester, both have proven very fine 5 shot groups at 50 and a 100 yards. I'm very appreciative of the time and effort you spent to give us the results of a Bleiker rifle shot with a two piece rest. I'm sorry that some benchrest shooters have not taken the hard fought information that you have obtained and not untilized it to their advantage. After all, we are are in pursuit of .000 groups
ifldned

What was the information that we br shooters are not using? The Info he posted on ammo ONLY applies to THAT rifle.

Bill Wynne
04-26-2010, 07:04 AM
I think he had a good method for testing for the best ammo in that rifle. I would take an average of the groups of each type of ammo tested and use that for comparison. Then I would test the best three or four again. After that he might try testing different lots of the same ammo.

Some time could be saved by not testing the stuff that is not in the target ammo class.

Another thing this shows me is that he is in the market for a Pappas rest.:)

Concho Bill

ifldned
04-26-2010, 02:16 PM
J. Pappas,
There are alot more kinds of benchrest shooting than the unlimited 22lr class which you are focused on. There must be thousands of CZ and Savage 22 rifles owners out there that are happy to know that their rifle and ammo set up can on occasion match the performance of a Olympic quality Bleiker rifle shot in a 100 yard wind tunnel. To most shooters benchrest shooting is just a way to sight your rifle in before hunting or testing loads before a different shooting dicipline match like silhouette etc.etc... To and for those shooters Saeeds test was very interesting and informative. I can't wait to see what he tests next.
ifldned
p.s. I want to emphasize that all perspectives and opinions are valid to me. The knowledge gained from anyone or anything are like pieces of a puzzle that I hope to be able to use sometime for my own or someones benefit.

Bill B
04-26-2010, 04:01 PM
So tell us - what great insightful knowledge did you learn from this test.

ifldned
04-26-2010, 05:16 PM
just off the top of my head. His best group at 100 yards indoors was .307 inch. That gives me a benchmark which I hope to best very shortly, .....outdoors. Imagine that, a 40-50 year old Winchester 52 besting one of the finest olympic rifles made today.
ifldned,

Bill B
04-26-2010, 05:37 PM
Sounds like more of a goal then any actual knowledge learned about rimfire or BR shooting.

ifldned
04-27-2010, 03:34 AM
Bill B,
You're probably right. Saeed shooting a olympic standing rifle is not comparable to shooting and" benchrest only rifle". And who knows what kind of technique he has, he seems to be a big game hunter that shoots fairly well. But for a big game hunter that shoots fairly well he did pretty good shooting in the zeroes two times. For me that is the benchmark of a expert rifleman. And using a two piece rest makes it all the more impressive.
ifldned

Pete Wass
04-27-2010, 09:50 AM
I went to a 200 YD RF Benchrest match a week ago Sunday. There was a good group of fellows, some Benchrest shooters and some folls who would never have shown up to a sanctioned Benchrest match.

Everyone had a great time and it was fun. Everyone was seriously trying to win. It was amazing how well some of the rifles shot also. A game is a game is a game. Best not to minimize what the other fellow finds fun and interesting, it's his game and he likes it. We need all of em we can get.

BrentD
04-27-2010, 10:13 AM
So, Peter, I would like to hear more about that match. What targets did you shoot (what sort of scoring ring diameters did it have for those that may not recognize whatever target you used)?

And then what sort of group sizes and scores were shot? Sounds like an excellent time and I would like to hear more about the results.

Brent

ifldned
04-27-2010, 02:20 PM
Peter,
I would also appreciate it if you gave us more details and results of the 200 yard 22lr rimfire shoot as I shoot that distance also.
ifldned

langenc
04-27-2010, 02:35 PM
I need to go back and see--did the same ammo produce similarly small groups at all 3 test ranges?? (or something close to it..

Or said another way-were the top 2-4 (smallest) groups at 25, 50 and 100 fired with the same brands?

40EZXS
04-27-2010, 03:03 PM
Nice rifle....but doesn't nean a thing to my rifle or me. Think about it.:)

ifldned
04-27-2010, 05:14 PM
your right
ifldned

foosurdaddy
04-27-2010, 07:58 PM
I know this 4000 rd test is pretty cool at least to me it is.
A few have said it does not mean much to them and there rifle.

I have no experience in shooting BR of any kind.
Some day I may set myself up with the a custom benchrest rifle, ammo and equipment and go at it. But for now im on this forum for one reason ......Information.
So Im wondering if someone would do a 4000 rd test on a custom 22 benchrest rifle " let just say it is set up exactly like your own, you know Same barrel, Same action, Same trigger, Same stock " and they use the same rest that you use....Would this be any diffrent.?
Would the information from this test eliminate the need to ammo test or just narrow it down?
From what Iv seen just on this forum alone most shooters narrow there ammo selection down to just a few to begin with anyway. Which is no doubt the reason why such a test for benchrest shooters has not been done / or has it?, or is even needed / or is it ?

I still think its pretty cool no matter what.

Joe Lipari

Butch Lambert
04-27-2010, 08:23 PM
I think most[not all] rimfire BR shooters have neither the funds or time to do this. I don't think the test was designed to help the BR shooters. I believe it is more for the plinker and shows what might happen if you bought so and so ammo for your CZ452. I think it still shows that your better quality ammo shoots well and some of the cheap stuff ain't bad.
Keep watching as it is an ongoing test.
Butch

ifldned
04-27-2010, 08:40 PM
I'm watching and waiting Butch. I'm logged into Saeed's website to see future results. I want to see what his custom 10/22 ruger can do. My friend, Ervin Zador has one that can shoot .182 inch groups on a indoor range regularly, scored with a electronic target setup.
ifldned

ifldned
04-27-2010, 09:15 PM
For those who this test by Saeed was a waste of time and ammo. I suggest you go to this website,"Batch testing at Eley". This is ammo testing done on a vise type rest with your personal rifle, to find the best lot number that suits your rifle. It removes the shooter completely from the equation. I'm assuming that most of you shoot Eley Tenex in matches. If these tests have no relevancy to improving your shooting only GOD can help you and I'll pray for you.
http://www.clach-sbrc.org.uk/batchtest/


ifldned

Fred J
04-27-2010, 10:21 PM
Most on the documented ammo tests we see posted here, are of value only to the shooter doing the tests. He's testing the ammo he has, not what we can buy. If you will notice by Lot number, and name, most all of this ammo is either out of production or older production that most all dealers are out of stock. I believe Steve B from Vegas, wrote a book on this same subject and proved the same thing.

Pete Wass
04-27-2010, 10:54 PM
So, Peter, I would like to hear more about that match. What targets did you shoot (what sort of scoring ring diameters did it have for those that may not recognize whatever target you used)?

And then what sort of group sizes and scores were shot? Sounds like an excellent time and I would like to hear more about the results.

Brent

We shot at the 100 Yd off hand target. It was quite big. We shot two rounds of ten shots for score. Two of the shooters had 19 in the 10. #One shooter had 10 in the x ring and second place had 5. I don't remember what third place had for a score but I think he lost 3 out to the 9 ring.

I was holding on the outside of the 10 ring at about 2:00 to drop them into the 10 and x ring.

Dan Carey
04-28-2010, 12:30 AM
Interesting observations.

Wilbur
04-28-2010, 01:52 AM
..........So Im wondering if someone would do a 4000 rd test on a custom 22 benchrest rifle " let just say it is set up exactly like your own, you know Same barrel, Same action, Same trigger, Same stock " and they use the same rest that you use....Would this be any diffrent.?..........

It would not.

Identical parts do not comprise identical rifles. Folks have spent lifetimes trying to duplicate accuracy...mostly in vain.

foosurdaddy
04-28-2010, 07:52 AM
So then its not that he is testing on a non benchrest rifle?

Really all this test is showing is someone has a lot of spare time on there hands and is willing to share there findings with us ..... kind of nice...dont you think.
Ok so you really cant use the findings to know what ammo shoots best in "your gun". But I think it does show that maybe just maybe you can be competitive with less expensive ammo if you give them a non bias try.
Then again maybe not maybe im wrong......
Just my thoughts
Joe Lipari / the non benchrest shooter!

Ps: I think there should be a beginners class in rimfire benchrest where the limit is not on the rifle only but also on the ammo ( you cant shoot ammo that cost more then $6 a box of 50 ).

Butch Lambert
04-28-2010, 10:43 AM
Saeed has a Hall rifle that he is going to use as well as a whole host of other RF rifles. If that doesn't interest you watch for his 1200 grain bullet test in his 700 cal. rifle.
Butch

cbrock
04-28-2010, 12:20 PM
Good afternoon, Third place in that match was a 198-9X, and 4th place was 198-8X, they were my targets. My first match off a rest. My biggest problem was not being able to see bullet strikes with my 25-X spotting scope. Oh, the target was. I believe a 200 yd repair center, 13" aiming black. I don't know if we talked, at the match, I am not a member yet. Next time. This certainly won't be my last match, I'm hooked. A great bunch of guys! Thanks, Charles

ifldned
04-28-2010, 01:41 PM
I went back and rechecked all of Saeeds 50 yard groups. He shot in the zeros 5 times. The rimfire competition record is .09 shot in 2001 by Mr. Jerry Luck. Saeed bested that mark 3 times. Very impressed...
ifldned

BrentD
04-28-2010, 02:11 PM
We shot at the 100 Yd off hand target. It was quite big. We shot two rounds of ten shots for score. Two of the shooters had 19 in the 10. #One shooter had 10 in the x ring and second place had 5. I don't remember what third place had for a score but I think he lost 3 out to the 9 ring.

I was holding on the outside of the 10 ring at about 2:00 to drop them into the 10 and x ring.


thanks for the information. Sounds like you had a lot of fun.

If you keep doing it, you might consider the German Ring target sold by ASSRA or WSU. The 200 yds target has a 1.5" 25 pt ring and each ring going out is 3/4" wide. I am not sure if anyone has shot a clean 250 on that target or not but folks come close. I've been in the upper 240s many times. I wonder if the fully tricked out rifles from the modern BR would be much better.

Were you able to watch your bullets loop into the target? I get such a kick out of watching my bullets in 200 yds benchrest shooting. You can really see what the wind can do.

BTW, the targets mentioned come in Red WSU or Orange (ASSRA) and make spotting shots at 200 yds much easier. If you cannot see your bullet holes, you really can't learn to shoot into the wind very well, so the color is important.

Most of us use zoom spotting scopes like Kowas or similar, and they do a pretty good job at 200.

Thanks again.
Brent

glp
04-28-2010, 04:35 PM
So, Peter, I would like to hear more about that match. What targets did you shoot (what sort of scoring ring diameters did it have for those that may not recognize whatever target you used)?

And then what sort of group sizes and scores were shot? Sounds like an excellent time and I would like to hear more about the results.

Brent

used the NRA SR-C center fire 200 yard target ( 3" X ring, 7" 10 Ring and 13" 9 ring), benchrest. Guns were limited to .22 long rifle rimfire only. Two classes, any sight and iron sights. There were 18 guns shooting, 2 I believe were iron sight shooters. One gent shot 2 guns so 17 shooters. Format was 15 minute sight in period divided roughly in half to allow shooters to walk to the targets to examine them up close, then remaining sight in period to refine sight pic.

Then 10 minutes for 10 shots, 5 minute break, then 10 minutes for final 10 shots.

Here is a link to some pics of my 200 yard target shot with my Rem 37 and a 20X Unertl. Pete shot this gun too. Ammo was Federal 922A (RWS) target std velocity.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337540

It was a nice collection of old Remingtons, Win 52's and pre-A's, a 100 year old Stevens 44 1/2, Lyman STS, Junior TS's, Unertls and a Litschert or two. Lots of fun, challenging and nostalgic. Pretty good combo. Do a search on Lincoln County Rifle Club. The results were not up yesterday but are supposed to be posted sometime soon. --Greg

BrentD
04-28-2010, 05:11 PM
Thanks Greg. I hope you find 200 yd bench to be as addicting as I do.

I'll see if I can post a photo of a collection of targets that we shoot. I have a bunch in the basement somewhere.

ifldned
04-28-2010, 05:50 PM
Greg,
Congrats on the great shooting. ifldned

Butch Lambert
04-28-2010, 05:56 PM
Now I know why I don't hang around Rimfire Central. Their 10/22s will shoot better and the Bleiker's groups are not up to what a quality rifle should shoot. Give me a break!
Butch

ifldned
04-28-2010, 10:34 PM
I hope you're not responding to me. I stated my friend Evin Zador is a multi -time state and national champion in outdoor metallic silhouette creedmore style outdoors,has a 10/22 that can shoot .187 inch 5 shot groups scored on a electronic target shot in a wind tunnel. That's along ways from the zeros that Saeed shot with his Bleiker. As a matter of fact now that Saeed is done testing that rifle and probably won't use it for who knows how long, I wonder if he would be willing to sell it to a poor guy just scrapping along in life like myself. Maybe you can put in a good word for me. I like what Saeed is doing and I'm sure many many other shooters appreciate his efforts.
ifldned

JJ-IA
04-28-2010, 11:53 PM
He wasn’t ifldned, the same topic was posted on RFC and some of the comments are hilarious!
you should check it out. :)

ifldned
04-29-2010, 01:01 PM
JJ-1A,
I will right now, I need a laugh....
ifldned

greg
04-29-2010, 07:58 PM
he wasn’t ifldned, the same topic was posted on rfc and some of the comments are hilarious!
You should check it out. :)

a

foosurdaddy
04-29-2010, 08:22 PM
greg, on RFC what is it listed under....i cant seem to find the thread for it?

greg
04-29-2010, 08:25 PM
greg, on RFC what is it listed under....i cant seem to find the thread for it?

find it either. :rolleyes:

ifldned
04-29-2010, 08:28 PM
I can't find it either. In search of a laugh.
ifldned

katokoch
04-29-2010, 08:49 PM
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338439

Butch Lambert
04-29-2010, 08:50 PM
Try this
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338439
Butch

republicanhack
05-07-2010, 01:10 PM
i wish my 10/22 would shoot that well